jdev - 2023-09-08

I'm curious to know some details on how participating in a MUC works. I opened my client (gajim) and it says "You joined the group chat" but as far as I'm concerned (as a user) I was already part of the group chat

soulcaramel: each of your clients join seperately

Ok I think I see the sense in that, since our jid specifies devices too

I guess I find it odd that on one device I'm participating in two chatrooms but on another device I only see this one in my sidebar (again, gajim)

Maybe my mental model needs adjusting. It's less -my jid is logged into the chatroom- and more .. my client has joined a chatroom using my jid. is that right?

Yes something like that

technically each of your clients has their own full jid, it's like bob@bob.com/resource-here

So each of them are joining individually

that makes sense

soulcaramel, also "joinedness" is a state bound to your online-ness (which is implied by what moparisthebest said, but only if you are already knee-deep in XMPP specifications). if a client goes offline, that also terminates that client's session with the MUC

in that sense, XMPP is like IRC. however, due to history access generally being available on MUC servers these days, it doesn't hurt.

Are there SRV settings for email?

Like XMPP?

sagaracharya, email has the predecssor RR type of SRV: MX

> sagaracharya, email has the predecssor RR type of SRV: MX Meaning?

There are no SRV settings for email, but the MX RR type exist, which is the spiritual predecessor of the SRV RR type

> There are no SRV settings for email, but the MX RR type exist, which is the spiritual predecessor of the SRV RR type That is some hidden secret stuff

Probably known only to likes of N Chandrasekaran

Na, not secret, everthing is openly accessible and free of charge, you just have to find it :)

Can you send me some link to understand how to set MX RR records?

How to add port to MX record?

Like in SRV?

you don't

Off topic?

flow: So then, it must be possible to have a subdomain, mail.example.com at another port?

example.com MX 10 mail example.com

I mean mail.example.com above?

Then mail.example.com RR example.com:678

off topic indeed.

jonas' : ofc

Anything more to say?

Enlighten the participants with your divine knowledge?

sagaracharya, enough with the insults. Feel free to leave the channel, abide by the rules, or face a ban. The choice is up to you.

Does one indeed have to break rules to be banned or merely ano other thing?

In prosody and the XMPP operators group, didn't you ban for absolutely nothing!!

There, I was 'abiding' by the rules

You had multiple warnings, which you ignored, just like you have been ignoring warnings here

No. conversations cannot be absolutely strictly on topic, they sway around a bit.

In prosody, one can talk about DNS

It's not as if, speak only on prosody conf, if not, off topic

Here you go, banned

:D

> You had multiple warnings, which you ignored, just like you have been ignoring warnings here Apply some logic to your warnings.

jonas clearly abused me. No ban for him

A good example of the topics you bring up in every channel is mail server configuration, which is off-topic in all three channels, yet you continued despite being told so, and then became rude and insulting

Infact, he's preaching here and you're supporting him, uniting with him.

Which is exactly what is happening here, so don't continue down this path

You have been pointed multiple times to channels which are suitable for the topics you bring up, yet you prefer to ignore the rules of whichever channel you are currently in

jonas should stop messing around. If you add me back to group and demote him to a normal member, that would be right

prosody and xmpp hosts

> A good example of the topics you bring up in every channel is mail server configuration, which is off-topic in all three channels, yet you continued despite being told so, and then became rude and insulting What's wrong in asking mail server hosting to sysadmins?

who have experience in it?

You seem to have a hard time grasping the idea that the same people can participate in different venues, for which the appropriate topics and rules vary

It's slightly offtopic, but there are no other groups. That is the best group to ask it

I'll re-iterate that it's not so much the offtopic that's annoying me, as is the your behavior when asked to stop doing that.

There are many other groups, which can be found by entering a few likely keywords in https://search.jabber.network/

Guus, for sure, the off-topicness is barely an issue as an isolated thing, but when it's deliberately repeated and combined with insults it goes too far, and it has

MattJ: no argument here.

FYI last time I invited him to a dedicated self hosting muc to help him with this, he joined, we started talking, then he started insulting jonas in the old muc so I lost my desire to help and banned him, so I think it's just actual trolling

> FYI last time I invited him to a dedicated self hosting muc to help him with this, he joined, we started talking, then he started insulting jonas in the old muc so I lost my desire to help and banned him, so I think it's just actual trolling Once jonas clears his earlier insult by apologizing, I'll move forward. Or MattJ will have to re add me to both groups and demote jonas for insulting

moparisthebest: What happened before I insulted jonas?

Do you remember that or conveniently forgot?

Let's start from the very start.

So, just to confirm, you are unable to abide by the rules right now?

I abide by all rules with all that do.

jonas doesn't abide by the rules so first I'll have to see him penalized for that

And especially not preach

Well that is demonstrably false, but okay. Then we can assume this detour of a conversation to be over, and return the channel to its usual discussions.

> Well that is demonstrably false, but okay. Then we can assume this detour of a conversation to be over, and return the channel to its usual discussions. What :)

What?

"Now can you? Why are these non-moderators preaching stuff? Can you demote jonas? From XMPP service group. Just look at the conversation jonas also banned me from Prosody group, for what? Please do look into it."

FWIW, I don't think this is trolling, but an overconfident feeling of "I'm obviously right", without being able to control their reactions. Sad.

Maybe, but I don't think you can say it's just that after months of name-calling and insults

Some people hold grudges :) - but, to be clear, even if jonas (or anyone) did mistreat them, todays behavior here was still unacceptable imo.

Whoever else in here would like to ban sagaracharya please raise your hand. I'll go first. +1

Trung: you might be receiving messages with a considerable delay.

For the record, I've only seen exceptional tolerance from jonas, and we have always tried to avoid bans, but ultimately that's what they aim for in my experience, after seeing this across multiple channels

(and/or missed the fact that the ban already happened)

To get back on topic I recently read https://telegra.ph/why-not-matrix-08-07 and holy crap I didn't realize it was a complete failure on a spec+implementation level

Way to go, moparisthebest

Nothing like a good Matrix rant to cool a channel's temperature :)

I've known jonas to be nothing but very reasonable until it comes to code reviews ;)

alrite yeah sorry Guus hahaha

> except the spec doesn’t actually define what the canonical json form is strictly, so there’s every possibility different implementations will end up generating different signatures for the same event. > oh wait, that actually happened. turns out that matrix homeservers written in different languages have json interoperability issues, so you might just get random events or requests that fail signature checks between different types of matrix servers because no one knows exactly how to get it right. synapse, the flagship implementation, simply relies on python’s sort_keys and calls it a day, to hilarious effect, and even other matrix devs working for element haven’t been able to figure out how to match this behavior in other implementations like dendrite. That's just hilariously sad

As one that has seen the inner workings of my own project, I shall not comment on the Matrix' implementation... :)

MattJ: I think it's got important lessons for XMPP though, like a, "how not to design a protocol 101"

> To get back on topic I recently read https://telegra.ph/why-not-matrix-08-07 and holy crap I didn't realize it was a complete failure on a spec+implementation level Wow that is very interesting read, thanks, tho quite gutsy with no citations tho (to the sections in the spec at least) ↺

As many such articles have been written about XMPP, so consider that when reading one that aligns too much with your own opinions

The reality is usually somewhere in the middle

(Matrix has warts, XMPP also has warts)

Also see 15 & 16 where bad messages can just permanently brick public channels

Protocol design is hard, and full of compromises

I don't think we have anything like this

So why start from the begining like Matrix did? Ego?

agh: investor money

> agh: investor money heh bingo! ↺

moparisthebest, we've had stuff like that in the past, such as questionable unicode or even XML posted to a MUC

MattJ: surely bugs yes, but not "permanently broken"

tl;dr failure modes are important

Sure. To permanently brick an XMPP channel just let your domain expire :)

Trade-offs are everywhere in protocol design

Right, along with "who can do the breaking" the operator always can, no one else should be able to though

XMPP does not suffer from split-brain tho?

Point 14 in the article asserts that Matrix does.

The XMPP architecture isn't one single world-wide replicated database cluster like what Matrix is, so while there may be split-brain issues, it's most likely within individual services, not the whole network.