jdev - 2024-02-15


  1. Schimon

    Greetings to one and all!

  2. Schimon

    PXA, PXP, PXS and MXA (henceforth "PXA") are labels for XMPP bots that in addition to providing interactive chat, they also provide controls via Data Forms - using Ad-hoc commands - which extend the functionality of groupchats as well as extending user experience by adding new features (Remote Control, News, Games etc.). PXAs may be delivered in a form of Client and Component. PXA: Progressive XMPP App PXA: Progressive XMPP Application PXP: Progressive XMPP Program PXS: Progressive XMPP Service PXS: Progressive XMPP Software MXA: Modular XMPP App MXA: Modular XMPP Application XCA: XMPP Chat App XGA: XMPP Groupchat App XCS: XMPP Chat Service XGS: XMPP Groupchat Service

  3. Schimon

    This is just a thought I have had while I was gardening today.

  4. moparisthebest

    What's the distinction between any of those? Also what happened to just calling them "bots" ?

  5. Schimon

    What makes a Progressive Web App a PWA? Why is ftp/gemini/gopher/http etc. telecommunication are refered by (inter)"net" or "web"? Are we talking about fishnet, or spider web, eh? Of course not! "Internet" and "Web" are gimmick words. The suggestion about is also a gimmic which encapsules many terms into one, without the need to present a detailed list of what features and abilities are available.

  6. Schimon

    This is a tricking technique which I might suggest to make.

  7. Schimon

    I know the practice of trickery is bad (it will always be bad, even for good).

  8. moparisthebest

    Sorry but I'm not following you

  9. Schimon

    > Herman: Schimon, don't you know what XCS is? > Schiomn: No, I don't. What about it? > Herman: Go read about it. Schimon is searching for "XCS", and while he does so, he is presented with articles that not only show capabilities of "chatbots" (that we all know), he also sees the techniques of ad-hoc and forms that are extending the UI experience in chat.

  10. Schimon

    The terms of XCS and XCG are only terms, but those terms will make an easy reference to the various of ways XMPP can be expanded.

  11. dwd

    So your suggestion is to make new imprenetrable and unknown TLAs on the basis it's good for publicity?

  12. Schimon

    imprenetrable?

  13. Schimon

    dwd, yes, I think that using special "term" would accelerate development of XMPP bots that would behave as "apps".

  14. moparisthebest

    Which term though? You suggested 11

  15. moparisthebest

    And I asked what the difference was and I don't think you answered lol

  16. Schimon

    I dumped terms I was thinking about, merely for the idea.

  17. Schimon

    My project is being referred to as a bot, which it is indeed a bot, but it feels more like a GUI software, especially with the UI of Cheogram.

  18. dwd

    So, to get this straight, you think the thing that's holding XMPP back is a lack of weird jargon?

  19. singpolyma

    I sometimes say app but I'll admit I often say bot about my stuff, partly because halp the people end up using it with legacy chatbot fallback commands due to cliint support

  20. Schimon

    dwd, XMPP is popular. And, yes; I think weird jargon might help us in bringing more developers as well as people into XMPP.

  21. moparisthebest

    XMPP XML STARTTLS MUC JID OMEMO BIND SRV SM CARBONS OTR I'm positive I'm only missing a few dozen more

  22. dwd

    Yes, and the majority of those are terms of art that should never be exposed to a user.

  23. Kev

    XMPP Is Art, you heard it here first.

  24. moparisthebest

    Every other chat system, even ones that existed before XMPP, call these "bots" I don't know why we should try to change that

  25. Ge0rG chimes in with ".IM TLD DNSSEC DLV DANE XMPP TLSA RR" which is an actual blog post title from 2015

  26. Schimon

    dwd, I hate hate hate ( *hate it so much* ) jargons. Be it in my "professional" field (law), be it in tech, be it in society (intelligence-forged phony-politics) which all resulted in myself not even making business in my own country, even when I have access to many of the all the "who and who" here, because of excessive jargons which screwed up this society which I was born into. Jargons are type of subversion and trickery, and yet, I believe that it would give us an advantage. XMPP is an open and free standard and does not hides anything, so I do not think that my suggestion for a jargon would harm.

  27. Schimon

    > Every other chat system, even ones that existed before XMPP, call these "bots" I don't know why we should try to change that moparisthebest, we do not change it. People may refer to bots as bots and people may refer to bots as "weird jargon"

  28. dwd

    Schimon, XMPP is not popular, and weird jargon just alienates people and makes the learning curve steeper. You'd be better off showing how bots in XMPP can do way more than a simple chat interface - but then, bots in Slack can also do way more than a simple chat interface too. But people still call them bots, and go looking for things called "bots".

  29. Schimon

    dwd, fair

  30. Schimon

    Then we might ought to make more people aware of ad-hoc commands that would make XMPP bots more appealing.

  31. singpolyma

    I suggest not to say "ad hoc" in the marketing copy wink

  32. moparisthebest

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=irc+bot https://duckduckgo.com/?q=slack+bot https://duckduckgo.com/?q=discord+bot I rest my case

  33. Schimon

    okay ok

  34. moparisthebest

    > I suggest not to say "ad hoc" in the marketing copy wink +1 though... How do you market this? "Rich interaction" or what

  35. singpolyma

    "Forms with Native UI" I dunno

  36. singpolyma

    Screenshots and videos

  37. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Interactive visual experiences that can change your chat experience and bring joy

  38. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    (tm of course)

  39. Schimon

    "Rich interaction" sounds nice!

  40. moparisthebest

    What's a "native UI" ? Will it run on my iPhone??? 🤣

  41. singpolyma

    Yes. I mean, once I get there 😛

  42. Trung

    > XMPP Is Art, you heard it here first. 🤣

  43. lovetox

    ok after 9 years of xmpp and publicly writing my JID everywhere (Gitlab / Github / Websites / Chats)

  44. lovetox

    spammers have finally found my server :D

  45. Wirlaburla

    I only got 9 years to go.

  46. grin

    lovetox, as in, spam registration of bot accounts?

  47. lovetox

    what i meant was my JID (not server) , as in i get spam messages and subscription requests

  48. grin

    ah :)

  49. lovetox

    do we have this report spam to server thingy?

  50. lovetox

    what i really want to do when i block the adress is a option that says "report jid and message content to remote server"

  51. MattJ

    lovetox, welcome to the club

  52. MattJ

    https://blog.prosody.im/simple-anti-spam-tips/

  53. lovetox

    i can report a spam message to *my* server, but not sure what that would help

  54. lovetox

    and its to cumbersome to find the abuse adress and message the admin about every spam message myself

  55. MattJ

    There will be a Prosody plugin in the next day or two which will forward reports to an external spam reporting service

  56. lovetox

    this could be trivial, request disco info, search disco info for abuse adress forward message

  57. lovetox

    i mean actually i dont need a XEP, i simply could program this workflow into gajim

  58. lovetox

    i should simply do this, actually a good idea

  59. lovetox

    that way its easy for users to automatically inform the admin of spam accounts

  60. lovetox

    do we have standardised abuse email disco info item

  61. MattJ

    Yes

  62. MattJ

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0157.html

  63. lovetox

    yes .. nice, so why did no one do this yet :D

  64. MattJ

    And for the block+report action: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html

  65. lovetox

    sounds trivial

  66. lovetox

    yeah i have block + report implemented

  67. MattJ

    Great

  68. lovetox

    but .. yeah what is the admin going to do with it?

  69. lovetox

    forward it one by one to the admin, until he gets tired?

  70. MattJ

    That depends on the admin

  71. MattJ

    Public server operators deal with spam reports all the time, in various forms

  72. pep.

    Did someone pay spammers to send stuff to lovetox so finally gajim gets some support? :P

  73. MattJ

    :P

  74. lovetox

    yeah but if his task is only to forward it to other admins .. i can imagine he often simply doesnt do it

  75. MattJ

    lovetox, there is plenty of activity on XMPP spam stuff, you're not the first to be working on it :)

  76. MattJ

    But much of it is not discussed publicly, for obvious reasons

  77. MattJ

    I don't know of any clients which directly report to remote server admins, it's an interesting idea

  78. MattJ

    But I suspect less likely to work in practice than receiving a report from a server

  79. MattJ

    Because that way the mechanism is a little less open to abuse

  80. lovetox

    i would simply forward the message content with a little notice

  81. lovetox

    the admin can then judge itself

  82. lovetox

    or look into other messages this user sends

  83. lovetox

    not sure what he would do differently if you as a server plugin sends him that

  84. MattJ

    i.e. you report to your server using XEP-0377, and your server takes the appropriate action (which may likely include sending the report to the originating server)

  85. Wirlaburla

    If you run a public instance and are not prepared for the worst, you aren't ready.

  86. MattJ

    lovetox, in general I'd avoid flows that involve manual admin work, there are too many spam messages around for that kind of thing

  87. MattJ

    But what you describe can be automated too

  88. lovetox

    MattJ, yeah obviously this would be the most efficient, because not every client has to implement the get disco info , forward message flow

  89. lovetox

    im looking forward of seeing that plugin :)

  90. lovetox

    of course it would be interesting that we had standardised fields for spam reports

  91. lovetox

    like a "jid" field, then the receiving admin could add automation, if i receive 10 spam reports from a single jid ... etc

  92. MattJ

    So I just need to register 10 accounts, and have each one report you as a spammer ;)

  93. lovetox

    yeah, i mean what would happen, i guess the automation is not "Delete account without human interaction"

  94. lovetox

    its probably, on 10 reports, send email to admin

  95. lovetox

    on 100 reports, deactivate user can send to remote servers

  96. Wirlaburla

    The efforts people take to spam XMPP means we really should be making the methods with as much human interaction as possible.

  97. Wirlaburla

    Any system implemented for automation with spam reports can be just as abused as spam is now.

  98. MattJ

    My approach is to work on tooling so that the necessary human interaction can be minimal, otherwise it's a lot of work

  99. lovetox

    i understand that there are VIPs where people would go out of there way to damage them somehow

  100. lovetox

    thats again another category, i think xmpp has not reached yet

  101. lovetox

    for the normal joe out there

  102. lovetox

    nobody is registering 100 different accounts and sending abuse reports ..

  103. Wirlaburla

    Nobody YET

  104. lovetox

    to what, to get them shutdown one hour until the admin sees its not a spammer

  105. MattJ

    Only because that's not very effective right now :)

  106. lovetox

    .. comone

  107. grin

    things that are too centralized suffer from the problem of admins/moderators simply having way too many things to sift through. i'd almost want something along the lines of a list of people on my server who are permitted to add a server-wide filter for a given network or jid, but don't necessarily have *admin* access to the server

  108. lovetox

    but yeah i see different sizes of networks have different spam problems

  109. Wirlaburla

    If there are to be any automated systems for spam reporting, it should only limit the user, not cut them off. That way, they may contact an admin or an admin can review it and undo the limit.

  110. Wirlaburla

    And by limit I mean limit the amount of messages per x amount of time. Functionality is not closed, only the amount of time is. But I'd say that would be the best method if any automatic systems were to be put in place.

  111. singpolyma

    lovetox: depending on your feelings abiud such things there are a small number of content filtering rules that crn be pretty effective too. What's nice in xmpp is we can always pass stuff from roster contacts and safely send back errors so even when there are false poritives it's not too bad

  112. singpolyma

    Unlike email where no one ever checks their spam folder and you don't even know if your stuff went there

  113. lovetox

    actually my server is hosted with conversations.im, so i cannot add content filters and stuff :)

  114. lovetox

    i also think, the most effective way is to get there accounts deleted

  115. lovetox

    so i like messaging the admin, i feel that solves the root cause

  116. lovetox

    instead of blocking them out

  117. MattJ

    lovetox, then hopefully you'll benefit from anti-spam stuff that is being worked on, without needing to do anything

  118. cal0pteryx

    _Mystery intensifies_

  119. debacle

    lovetox Can't wait for a new Gajim release with more antispam measures!

  120. lovetox

    hey we have the anti spam plugin

  121. debacle

    This current wave spammers leave me alone, fortunately, but a few years back, I got a lot of message and invitation spam.

  122. dwd

    > things that are too centralized suffer from the problem of admins/moderators simply having way too many things to sift through. i'd almost want something along the lines of a list of people on my server who are permitted to add a server-wide filter for a given network or jid, but don't necessarily have *admin* access to the server I suppose you could just have the server treat certain users' blocking actions as global.

  123. dwd

    moparisthebest, Random thought - the interaction between ALPN and DANE is kind of interesting, isn't it?

  124. pep.

    Sieve for XMPP when :x

  125. pep.

    Then treat some user's sieve filters as global :P

  126. pep.

    Or rather, give access to instance filters to some users

  127. dwd

    Sieve is pretty specific to email. Simpler to process all inbound stanzas via XSLT and elide any that result in no output.

  128. pep.

    Well I'm not gonna say I know much about sieve as a dev (or the protocol), I just lie it as a user, but wasn't it thought out to prevent DoS-ing servers easily or sth? (If it's something that can even be done). Or is it just (server) implementations that "have to be careful"?

  129. pep.

    Well I'm not gonna say I know much about sieve as a dev (or the protocol), I just like it as a user, but wasn't it thought out to prevent DoS-ing servers easily or sth? (If it's something that can even be done). Or is it just (server) implementations that "have to be careful"?

  130. dwd

    I was joking about the XSLT, by the way. But yes, Sieve was intentionally designed to be non-Turing Complete, so that it's not subject to the halting problem.

  131. dwd

    Whether it still *is*, is another matter. I vaguely recall something about loop constructs.

  132. pep.

    Right