jdev - 2024-03-05


  1. Link Mauve

    dwd, it sounds like you used Xorg on Linux, which indeed doesn’t handle current usecases well.

  2. Link Mauve

    I would recommend to use a modern desktop instead if you ever want to try it again, such as GNOME.

  3. Link Mauve

    I do run it on touch-only devices such as my phone (a PinePhone) or my game console (a Nintendo Switch), and I have very little to complain about nowadays.

  4. Wirlaburla

    Everything else > GNOME, don't @ me.

  5. edhelas

    Who just broke half of the Internet ?

  6. moparisthebest

    > dwd, it sounds like you used Xorg on Linux, which indeed doesn’t handle current usecases well. I'd recommend the opposite, I've never had a problem with xorg, like I said even worked out of the box with that touch screen On the other hand Wayland is still unusable for me after 15 years 🤣

  7. Zash

    I'd accuse you of trolling but Dino gets randomly disconnected from Wayland every other day. :/

  8. moparisthebest

    I've recently switched to leftwm after years with i3+KDE fwiw

  9. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    can we move the wayland is bad and what is everyones favorite environment to another room :)

  10. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > Who just broke half of the Internet ? https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/04/business/red-sea-cables-cut-internet/index.html

  11. moparisthebest

    Yea I'm not trolling, people have different use cases and requirements for how they use computers, Wayland breaks all my workflows, I understand it works fine for some people

  12. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > Red Sea cables have been damaged, disrupting internet traffic from above

  13. Zash

    xmpp worksforme, does anyone really care about anything else? :)

  14. edhelas

    Time to reroute the Internet on XMPP

  15. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    hardware implementation of xmpp when

  16. Zash

    Ethernet, "släng dig i väggen"

  17. meson

    > I'd accuse you of trolling but Dino gets randomly disconnected from Wayland every other day. :/ If the issue is about a full buffer due to not coping in handling events sufficiently fast, it looks like the relevant fix is ready: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/merge_requests/188#note_2312001

  18. Wirlaburla

    » I'd accuse you of trolling Why is it always like this when any brand-spankin' new software is rejected by somebody?

  19. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    because there is a lot of misinformation around wayland. so it makes sense to be cautious

  20. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    same with gnome. but with gnome its some kind of weird fixation

  21. Wirlaburla

    There is misinformation about Xorg too but I don't see people throwing "troll" around on waylanders.

  22. Wirlaburla

    Where is a generic tech/software muc when you need one?

  23. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    https://search.jabber.network/search?q=program&f=y&sinaddr=on&sindescr=on&sinname=on

  24. wgreenhouse

    Wirlaburla: xmpp:linux@muc.loqi.im?join for example

  25. Wirlaburla

    The good ones aren't public :P

  26. Wirlaburla

    I've looked but I'm a picky guy.

  27. wgreenhouse

    they weren't interested in your lukewarm wayland/xorg takes?

  28. Wirlaburla

    You don't even know my wayland/org takes.

  29. wgreenhouse

    I have a sense from the above

  30. Wirlaburla

    Perhaps just don't respond if you can't say anything nice.

  31. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    that could apply both ways from your statement above > Why is it always like this when any brand-spankin' new software is rejected by somebody?

  32. Wirlaburla

    What ridiculous reason could one have to call someone who just doesn't like something they like a troll? Is that really the mature thing to do? We could chat all about if XMPP is better than Matrix but any other software and someone is a "troll".

  33. Wirlaburla

    My takes on Wayland/Xorg do not matter in the subject.

  34. singpolyma

    I think we're very off topic by this point for jdev 🙂

  35. Wirlaburla

    So just an average day in the XMPP mucs.

  36. Wirlaburla

    I can bring it into topic. Xorg is a display server and client, right? What if we could communicate that through XMPP? Make a sandboxed X session to act as the server, and everybody else is a client.

  37. Wirlaburla

    Then you run whatever X application and your jabberpal sees and can interact with it too.

  38. pep.

    Can you please stop. Multiple people have asked already.

  39. Wirlaburla

    Where?

  40. pep.

    Read the room and stop talking alone

  41. Wirlaburla

    I'm talking about something relevant to this room.

  42. Wirlaburla

    You are not required to partake in its discussion.

  43. pep.

    "You don't have to be here" is certainly not welcoming. I doubt this is something the XSF wants in their room.

  44. Wirlaburla

    I doubt the XSF would want to stifen discussion of the protocol and development in their rooms just because one person doesn't wanna hear it.

  45. Wirlaburla

    I made the conversation on-topic by bringing up something I've been thinking about. I do not see the problem in this.

  46. pep.

    You didn't "make the conversation on-topic", you spread the butter thin just to be able to stick around to talk more bs about whatever the topic was.

  47. Wirlaburla

    You clearly cannot read.

  48. Wirlaburla

    Please stop with your ridiculousness.

  49. pep.

    lol

  50. Wirlaburla

    Now are you going to add anything to the discussion of X11 over XMPP or are you going to keep throwing a fit?

  51. pep.

    You know very well this X11 over XMPP is leading nowhere. And whatever is done towards this is just a waste of time. Stop the BS please.

  52. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also its two people :)

  53. pep.

    3 with me

  54. Wirlaburla

    I don't know it leads nowhere at all, but you arguing over the fact is definitely leading nowhere.

  55. moparisthebest

    pep.: fyi Cheogram has a "mute locally" now, my favorite feature from IRC finally arrived 😁

  56. pep.

    moparisthebest, please, I've already told you individual actions aren't a solution

  57. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    ^

  58. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    this is not irc

  59. Wirlaburla

    It is not up for you to decide what is "BS" in this room. I wanted to talk about an idea and you being a dick is definitely not appropriate.

  60. pep.

    I don't want "me" to be fine here, I want the room to be free from this kind of bs

  61. moparisthebest

    I'm just saying it's nice to be able to ignore certain people in certain MUCs sometimes, that's all

  62. pep.

    Yeah and ignoring individually isn't a solution, again.

  63. pep.

    At beast it's a temporary workaround

  64. moparisthebest

    They usually tire themselves out and go away when no one responds in my experience

  65. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    the problem is people coming into the room will see this convo and think this culture is acceptable and will leave

  66. pep.

    ^

  67. Wirlaburla

    Yeah, thanks pep.

  68. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and it also chills the room to not talk

  69. moparisthebest

    This isn't a "culture" thing, it's a "one guy won't drop a slightly off topic thing" no biggie

  70. Wirlaburla

    My god, it's a whole 'nother topic.

  71. Kev

    For what it's worth, calling someone a dick is clearly against the CoC for the room, and BS has to be at least borderline. So can we keep away from that, please.

  72. Wirlaburla

    Am I not allowed to bring up my own ideas and thoughts regarding the XMPP protocol here at all?

  73. pep.

    moparisthebest, yes biggie. But I know we won't agree on this

  74. Wirlaburla

    If I am not, please tell that to everyone else who has ever done the same thing. I'm sure they'll be happy to know that.

  75. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah it is culture. but its not the thing that needs to be discussed right now

  76. pep.

    It's not about the offtopic-ness anyway, it's that people asked them to stop, twice, well 3 times including me

  77. Wirlaburla

    Why would you want to stop a conversation that is meant for this muc?

  78. Wirlaburla

    If anything, pep. has made this conversation more off-topic than anything before.

  79. Wirlaburla

    If you did not want to discuss what I said, simply ignoring it is suffice.

  80. Kev

    I think it would be very sensible for Wirburla to stop engaging with pep. and pep. to stop engaging with Wirburla. Please.

  81. Wirlaburla

    But instead you threw a fit about it and called it "BS".

  82. pep.

    Fwiw I have ignored them by now. That doesn't solve the issue still :)

  83. Wirlaburla

    » [11:37:40] <Kev> I think it would be very sensible for Wirburla to stop engaging with pep. and pep. to stop engaging with Wirburla. Please. Fair.

  84. moparisthebest

    > It's not about the offtopic-ness anyway, it's that people asked them to stop, twice, well 3 times including me Totally agree, so mute to stop feeding the troll and PM a mod if you want, that's the best way imho

  85. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    just want to say that a person speaking up is not the one that brings the offtopic here. and it saddens me that the moderation here is taking both sides on this

  86. Wirlaburla

    My topic about an X11 over XMPP still remains. I'm not sure if it is possible since I am only vaguely aware of the protocol for X11 and am still fresh in learning the XMPP protocol but it'd be super neat if I could make this happen.

  87. moparisthebest

    You can put anything over XMPP, do it and share the code later

  88. Wirlaburla

    The big question I'm thinking of is if it'll be feasible when using graphics.

  89. Kev

    > just want to say that a person speaking up is not the one that brings the offtopic here. > and it saddens me that the moderation here is taking both sides on this I've banned no-one, which 458 would allow. But more than one person has been using inappropriate language towards another here, and that needs to stop.

  90. Link Mauve

    Wirlaburla, X11 is extremely inefficient when running over the network, so I would advise you against doing that, although waypipe is a modern alternative to doing that.

  91. Wirlaburla

    Maybe it'll get me finally submitting patches to X11 though.

  92. Wirlaburla

    Have your fibers hooked up.

  93. pep.

    Kev, however inneficiently I have been pointing at issues in the room. I see nothing is to be done, thanks.

  94. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Kev, muting works

  95. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    for the specific person

  96. Wirlaburla

    Privacy Lists/Blocks.

  97. Wirlaburla

    I won't change my nick because I have no reason to so that is a surefire way to never see anything I say again, although some conversations may be missing context.

  98. pep.

    > moparisthebest, Totally agree, so mute to stop feeding the troll and PM a mod if you want, that's the best way imho Yeah and it's totally beyond me that it's ok for "the troll" to stick around in this case

  99. Kev

    > , muting works I'm only concerned right now with people following 458, which largely just means treating with respect. Namecalling clearly is not such a thing.

  100. moparisthebest

    Wirlaburla: the good way of muting don't care if nicks change

  101. Wirlaburla

    » [11:44:31] <Kev> I'm only concerned right now with people following 458, which largely just means treating with respect. Namecalling clearly is not such a thing. I'll admit my fault here and if someone could relay my apology to pep. for calling him a dick, that'd be great. It was not appropriate.

  102. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > > , muting works > I'm only concerned right now with people following 458, which largely just means treating with respect. Namecalling clearly is not such a thing. fair. just pointing out that your statement of > I think it would be very sensible for Wirburla to stop engaging with pep. and pep. to stop engaging with Wirburla. Please. doesnt help the situation. both from a culture of the room standpoint and from letting people know that speaking up is protected.

  103. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    we shouldnt both sides issues always

  104. Kev

    > we shouldnt both sides issues always Both people were falling short of 'treat with respect' for each other. Asking them to stop talking to each other seemed better to me than banning them both, although if you feel I took the wrong action and should have done so, the CoC has an appeals process.

  105. moparisthebest

    To be clear this isn't some noble stand like speaking up against racism or whatever, it was a nothing-burger about degrees of offtopic-ness, sometimes people don't get along and one or the other isn't necessarily at fault, that's where /ignore shines

  106. pep.

    Kev, I think you're missing the part before that

  107. pep.

    That's the important bit here

  108. Kev

    Possibly. I came in, I saw namecalling etc., I asked for it to stop.

  109. moparisthebest

    He apologized FYI

  110. pep.

    Yeah, that's more or less tone policing.

  111. Kev

    > Yeah, that's more or less tone policing. If you don't like the CoC, I'd suggest going to start a thread (or using one of the existing ones where it's been discussed before) on members@

  112. Wirlaburla

    The conversation prior was off-topic. I took a peice from it to bring up something I have been thinking about. I did not mean to instigate anything whatsoever, simply trying to re-align this muc to its purpose.

  113. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > > Yeah, that's more or less tone policing. > If you don't like the CoC, I'd suggest going to start a thread (or using one of the existing ones where it's been discussed before) on members@ a culture of room is not based solely on a CoC. you cant put a paper on a website and expect culture of a room to follow

  114. pep.

    I'm no member fwiw, but anyways.. There's the CoC and there's ways to apply it. "Tone policing" to me would fall under §2.4

  115. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    so changing the CoC may not have helped here

  116. pep.

    Don't dismiss legitimate anger

  117. MattJ

    Okay, I'm not sure (even from skimming the backlog) exactly what happened - but as far as I can tell there was some off-topic talk and now we're talking about CoCs?

  118. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    enforcement of said CoCs

  119. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and to be honest i dont think Kev was doing tone policing on purpose here

  120. Wirlaburla

    I'm not a troll.

  121. Wirlaburla

    I would be wasting my time if I was. I'm a service operator.

  122. Guus

    In my opinion, Kev was being perfectly reasonable. Pointers for people that disagreed with that were given for them to follow up to if so desired. Hopefully we can leave it at that.

  123. dingus

    > Okay, I'm not sure (even from skimming the backlog) exactly what happened - but as far as I can tell there was some off-topic talk and now we're talking about CoCs? seems like there was an offtopic convo about Wayland v X11, which caused Wirlaburla to share his idea about having X11 work over XMPP, and I guess pep. just misconstrued that as more Wayland v X11 talk when he was just sharing an idea and started throwing a fit against Wirlaburla

  124. dingus

    so Wirlaburla frustrated, calls pep. a dick, some more back and fourth goes on, and then he apologizes and says it wasn't professional

  125. dingus

    so seems like a miscommunication, pep. treated his X11 over XMPP idea like more of the same conversation as before, and Wirlaburla got frustrated at his idea being misconstrued

  126. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    can we drop this please

  127. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    this is not the venue for this anymore

  128. dingus

    was trying to answer MattJ's question, but oke

  129. edhelas

    <authenticate xmlns="urn:xmpp:sasl:2" mechanism="SCRAM-SHA-1"> <initial-response>biwsbj1taWhvLHI9TG02M2ppWGNIRWlYaXdmSGNYUmxkYkV4UFFQb05rTXZHSjdRa1JSREgrQT0=</initial-response> <bind xmlns="urn:xmpp:bind:0"> <tag>Movim</tag> <enable xmlns="urn:xmpp:carbons:2"/> </bind> </authenticate> <challenge xmlns='urn:xmpp:sasl:2'>cj1MbTYzamlYY0hFaVhpd2ZIY1hSTNZVGN3TkRrdE5EQmhZUzAwWldKaExUazJPVE10WVRZeU9HUmlOMkZqTWpVdyxpPTQwOTY=</challenge> <response xmlns="urn:xmpp:sasl:2">Yz1iaXdzLHI9TG02M2ppWGNIRWlYanhzVEFFaGVQWGYyTFdlQkdEWmhPdEk9</response> </stream:stream>

  130. edhelas

    Do you know why the server is throwing me a </stream> ? My <response/> seems viable 🤔

  131. Zash

    That seems a question for the server logs