jdev - 2024-04-06


  1. debacle

    When trying to explain Jabber to normal people, I regularly get the question "but how do I find people?" Those people are used to e.g. Facebook, and like to find people using some kind of global name search or similar. Of course, those people are not very privacy-aware :-) I wonder, how a global search function in XMPP can work. Something like: "user publishes a profile text on a server PubSub node and other servers can use that information for searching"? Similar to XEP-0485: PubSub Server Information, but with much more information? Would that scale? goffi, edhelas, any idea?

  2. jonas’

    what kind of information?

  3. jonas’

    and how to protect that information from abuse?

  4. techmetx11

    debacle: a DHT

  5. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also if they dont mind phone numbers isnt quicky allowing it already?

  6. Zash

    it's easy, tell them to ask their friends on facebook what their JID or XMPP address is

  7. Zash

    yeah there's https://quicksy.im/enter/

  8. debacle

    jonas’ People typically search for names. This, of course, can be abused.

  9. goffi

    debacle: XEP-0055?

  10. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    if not quicky probably a DHT yeah. at least that is how jami does it

  11. debacle

    MSavoritias (fae,ve) Zash Quicksy does not work for searching. People need to be on Quicksy for that. And I can't search for names.

  12. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    fair

  13. Zash

    debacle, you can also ask them to put their JID in their facebook profile

  14. debacle

    goffi XEP-0055 is only local to server, right? And IIRC, there is no opt-in per user?

  15. Zash

    dedicated opt-in XEP-0055 thing would be neat, like where you register with it and let it subscribe to your vcard or something. but it would probably be instantly abused to GDPR-deaht

  16. Zash

    dedicated opt-in XEP-0055 thing would be neat, like where you register with it and let it subscribe to your vcard or something. but it would probably be instantly abused to GDPR-death

  17. debacle

    Zash Sure, publishing their JID on facebook works for those on facebook. But e.g. not for me, because I refuse to be there. And I believe, XMPP user search must not depend on FB :-)

  18. Zash

    debacle, it's a search method, whether it is per server or not is up to the implementation

  19. Zash

    opt-in could be some adhoc command

  20. moparisthebest

    how do/did people search for phone numbers? Mostly for people that just asked, for businesses there was the phone book

  21. Zash

    or shared directly after asking

  22. moparisthebest

    Who wants to print hundreds of thousands of 400 page books with everyone's JID in them ?

  23. debacle

    moparisthebest Practically all of my younger friends to not use email anymore.

  24. debacle

    moparisthebest Practically all of my younger friends do not use email anymore.

  25. moparisthebest

    > or shared directly after asking Yea that's what meant by just asking

  26. debacle

    They use it only for recovering their social media passwords :-)

  27. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    same

  28. moparisthebest

    I didn't mention email...

  29. debacle

    moparisthebest Sorry, I confused things.

  30. moparisthebest

    On a different topic, it's a shame that you can use IRC as your OS but not XMPP 😁 https://axleos.com/an-irc-client-in-your-motherboard/ something we should fix

  31. debacle

    Well, there seems to be a real world use case for searching users by e.g. name. That is a function, that is used a lot in FB, Twitter, LinkedIn and so on. So far, I just tell people to share their JID out-of-band (web page, SMS, email, business card), but people stare at me, as if I'm very stupid and did not understand modern social networks at all. Which might be the case.

  32. Zash

    Just send them Snikket invites to common circles and they'll find each other that way

  33. moparisthebest

    My point was that 3 seconds ago everyone managed to communicate via phone numbers without a central "search by name" database, and can do that same thing with a JID

  34. debacle

    Zash Invites are great and help somewhat. But then I have exactly *one contact*. I can't search for other people, I might know, or people I like to know.

  35. Zash

    How did they find each other on WhatsApp?

  36. Zash

    (how did they get each others phone number for whatsapp to datamine?)

  37. debacle

    moparisthebest Only some years ago, I had about 2 kg of phone register at home. It was given out by the phone company every year :-)

  38. Zash

    Social networks work differently than private chat focused things like what most of XMPP is

  39. debacle

    Zash, I assume, that WA uploads complete contact lists, a function, that XMPP fortunately does not have. I guess, they match by phone number?

  40. Zash

    Yes. So how did they get each others phone numbers?

  41. Zash

    Hm, did the thing with Conversations using the local address book to show names etc from there resolve?

  42. Zash

    Contact invites, share by SMS, ???, PROFIT! (should be doable on at least Android without actually accessing the address book right?)

  43. debacle

    I'm talking more about the situation of people not yet in contact, but who are looking to be discoverable (is this a word?). What people tell me, is that they search by name in Facebook or LinkedIn and similar services... This is probably more relevant to use cases like libervia or movim than to private chat.

  44. debacle

    0055 is already there, opt-in might be easy to add using ad-hoc commands.

  45. Zash

    Doing that while preserving privacy is an active research area AFAIK

  46. debacle

    But the federation part is still missing.

  47. Zash

    Pretty sure that this is a Hard Problem

  48. wgreenhouse

    yes, xmpp has support for directory search services

  49. wgreenhouse

    idk if any are active today

  50. Zash

    wgreenhouse, probably not, it's a privacy nightmare to enable

  51. Link Mauve

    debacle, most people around me stopped using landline phones because of how much spam calls they received, this is partially due to it being public information alongside their name.

  52. Link Mauve

    I can see how people could want the thing that will make them stop using the thing.

  53. debacle

    Link Mauve Here in Germany having your landline phone number public is optional since decades. Don't remember, if it is opt-in or opt-out, but e.g. my landline is not public and I never get spam calls.

  54. Link Mauve

    debacle, about a decade ago when I started working on JabberFR, one of the first services we removed was the open registration XEP-0055, since it was actively being used for spam and otherwise harrassment.

  55. Link Mauve

    debacle, and thus people can’t look you up by name either.

  56. debacle

    Link Mauve Sure, it is a function, I would not want for me. But most of my friends (contrary to myself) can be found on Facebook, LinkedIn and more services.

  57. debacle

    And they love it. (Why???)

  58. Link Mauve

    debacle, these services probably fight spam and harrassment much better than we ever could, having a full view over their service.

  59. wgreenhouse

    and still fail pretty badly

  60. wgreenhouse

    linkedin is almost pure spam

  61. Link Mauve

    Oh is it?

  62. wgreenhouse

    yeah

  63. wgreenhouse

    I get lots of computer generated recruiter junk

  64. debacle

    Link Mauve That's a good point. They have a lot of money to spend on privacy — which ironically they make by betraying users privacy!

  65. debacle

    LinkedIn is MS, so of course they fail :-)

  66. moparisthebest

    debacle: I would be interested in building and hosting a public XMPP directory if you can gather more requirements and it still makes sense

  67. moparisthebest

    I'm wondering if that's actually what people want though, my impression of Facebook is it's *not* a global name search?

  68. moparisthebest

    It shows you people near you and if they have friends in common etc

  69. moparisthebest

    That is obviously much harder...

  70. debacle

    Another random idea how people could find other people (but only in the context of common-interest MUCs): If people could join MUCs and select on join, if they want their JID to be public. AFAIK, at the moment, MUCs are either/or, right?

  71. moparisthebest

    I can throw together a way to gather names and JIDs, message the JID for confirmation, and allow searching on the names, but is it helpful ?

  72. debacle

    moparisthebest I've not the slighest idea, how the search in FB actually works. People tell me, they enter a name of a person they met at last weeks party, and they find the person. Very likely, that they are in fact close in their social FB circle.

  73. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > Link Mauve Sure, it is a function, I would not want for me. But most of my friends (contrary to myself) can be found on Facebook, LinkedIn and more services. isnt that also masto and activitypub stuff and your personal blog/site tho :P

  74. moparisthebest

    Nothing would stop 500 JIDs from claiming to be Joe Biden or Adolph Hitler, I'm not gonna implement KYC lol

  75. moparisthebest

    > moparisthebest I've not the slighest idea, how the search in FB actually works. People tell me, they enter a name of a person they met at last weeks party, and they find the person. Very likely, that they are in fact close in their social FB circle. This is what I expect, I'll ask my wife she uses Facebook :'(

  76. debacle

    MSavoritias (fae,ve) How does it work in Mastodon/AP? When I enter `@Julia`, I get a list of handles with `julia` in it, but from different domains.

  77. debacle

    MSavoritias (fae,ve) How does search work in Mastodon/AP? When I enter `@Julia`, I get a list of handles with `julia` in it, but from different domains.

  78. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    i meant that people can write their xmpp address there

  79. singpolyma

    debacle: note for search by tel we do have an option for that now

  80. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    there is no search that is "all of activitypub"

  81. singpolyma

    But for search by name we have only the protocol i think no one operates a directory today

  82. debacle

    Also, I wonder if a central directory is the right way for a federated system ;-)

  83. wgreenhouse

    > there is no search that is "all of activitypub" yes, people run you off the network for suggesting doing it

  84. moparisthebest

    > MSavoritias (fae,ve) How does search work in Mastodon/AP? When I enter `@Julia`, I get a list of handles with `julia` in it, but from different domains. I think it searches accounts of all messages you have locally

  85. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > > there is no search that is "all of activitypub" > yes, people run you off the network for suggesting doing it good

  86. debacle

    moparisthebest Which is, IMHO, already pretty useful on middle-sized to large servers. On a small server... bad luck.

  87. moparisthebest

    >> yes, people run you off the network for suggesting doing it > good Yes only giant evil corps like Google should be allowed to scrape all of activitypub addresses and content 🤣😭🤣

  88. wgreenhouse

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): good or not, the main form of social activity on AP seems to be blocking stuff

  89. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah the network is pretty much seperated now. especially with fedipact happening

  90. wgreenhouse

    lol

  91. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    which was inevitable. activitypub has some of the "advanced" safety cultures of the standard protocols going around

  92. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    which is ironic

  93. wgreenhouse

    advanced social shunning

  94. wgreenhouse

    waiting for someone to write an AP implementation that only blocks

  95. moparisthebest

    "advanced" or "IRC like" ?

  96. wgreenhouse

    moparisthebest: not yet irc like, some still federate with somebody else

  97. moparisthebest

    "screw you guys I'm making my own network *netsplit*"

  98. singpolyma

    > Also, I wonder if a central directory is the right way for a federated system ;-) Multiple directories. Now it's federated 😉

  99. singpolyma

    >> there is no search that is "all of activitypub" > yes, people run you off the network for suggesting doing it I mean, it's been done of course, but not popular

  100. moparisthebest

    IRC had opt-in federation before activitypub authors were born

  101. singpolyma

    moparisthebest: I wouldn't call what IRC can do federation, but yes

  102. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also activitypub has no optin federation

  103. moparisthebest

    Yea "opt-in federation" is just manually linking servers, kind of an oxymoron

  104. moparisthebest

    > also activitypub has no optin federation A whitelist of domains you can federate with is this

  105. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    again it doesnt have it. but anyway you seem convinced of yourself :P

  106. Zash

    I would consider "federation" to be more about separate organizations talking to each other, while remaining separate. Whether that is by mutual agreement or open is a separate thing

  107. singpolyma

    Right but IRC when you link servers they don't really reman seperate

  108. Zash

    Indeed, IRC has a single shared namespace, so it's more like a big cluster than what we would call federation.

  109. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    really? makes sense nobody wants to federate then

  110. moparisthebest

    if you squint bob@bob.com and alice@alice.com are in the same namespace too

  111. singpolyma

    Sure, they are, but we all pretend . Doesn't exist

  112. singpolyma

    DNS is distributed if you ignore . 😉

  113. Zash

    > separate organizations each having their own namespace