-
Soni
mathieui: we disagree with the premise that admins should own users and be able to do whatever they want with them.
π 1 -
Soni
the problem is we already have account portability and it just isn't good enough
-
Soni
because whatever instance you move to, has its own policies which might be incompatible with your existing stuff. the *only* valid solution is one that lets you keep what you have *and also* get what you want.
-
Soni
sure it might piss off a few (abusive) admins but the users are more important here.
β€ 1 -
singpolyma
The solution is to run your own instance π
-
Soni
singpolyma: we would rather die than run our own instance
-
singpolyma
π€·ββοΈ
-
mathieui
Soni, I disagree with the premise, admins do not own their users, users are supposed to trust their admins to do some of the nitty gritty parts for them, such as banning spam domains (as an example)
-
mathieui
(also account portability on mastodon is indeed not good enough, but it could be; on XMPP it is not great, though there are plans)
-
singpolyma
On XMPP we have great portability so long as you own a domain, which is fundamental to any internet identity plan anyway
-
Soni
mathieui: and what account portability do you have in mind that doesn't involve crossposting? how do you solve the problem of "current instance bans half the friends, alternative instance bans the other half"
-
mathieui
Soni, "maybe try to find an instance where admins arenβt dipshits"
-
Soni
mathieui: every solution involves tradeoffs. every instance involves tradeoffs.
-
Soni
we would prefer the bruteforce solution.
-
Soni
it doesn't try to be optimal, it "just works". it's like the Happy Eyeballs (yes, that IPv6 thing) of social media.
-
Soni
"if you can't solve the problem, just use every option"
-
mathieui
Yes, but making it an UI problem of clients is a very expensive solution (in terms of development, testing, and maintenance costs) to something that is not currently a problem
-
mathieui
I mean, we have enough real problems to solve as it is :D
-
Soni
you can always come to fedi if you want real problems to solve :p
-
Soni
(okay maybe that was a little mean... sorry)
-
moparisthebest
Soni: if I may ask, why don't you want to run your own server
-
Soni
moparisthebest: we don't enjoy server maintenance
-
moparisthebest
Soni, what about paying a couple dollars per month for someone else to do that for you ? with the option to move providers or self host whenever you want ?
-
Soni
moparisthebest: sure, there are options. what about explicitly disrupting the admin-user power dynamics?
-
moparisthebest
isn't the best way to do that to just... be your own admin ?
-
moparisthebest
by paying a hoster or doing it yourself
-
singpolyma
The only way indeed
-
Soni
nah, there are plenty of admins who act like they have all the power and use their position to abuse vulnerable users
π 1 -
moparisthebest
unlike fediverse and every other thing I host, XMPP is both easy and *very* light on resources
-
moparisthebest
> nah, there are plenty of admins who act like they have all the power and use their position to abuse vulnerable users not in XMPP land there are not, I think because of what I said above ↺
-
singpolyma
> nah, there are plenty of admins who act like they have all the power and use their position to abuse vulnerable users Sure that's why I'd never let someone else be admin ↺
-
Soni
the only solution is redundancy
-
Soni
or does your provider not count
-
hyol
Soni, It sounds like you are talking about something like Nostr
-
Soni
nah, we don't do p2p
-
hyol
It's not p2p
-
singpolyma
Yes, the proposed model is exactly nostr I think
-
hyol
But it's also not instant messaging. It's social media
-
singpolyma
Spray messages around a lot of relays and let clients pick up wherever they like
-
Soni
we wouldn't touch nostr with a lightyear pole
-
singpolyma
> But it's also not instant messaging. It's social media Well this whole discussion is about Mastodon so that seems correct ↺
-
hyol
> we wouldn't touch nostr with a lightyear pole Why not? ↺
-
hyol
What about SimpleX?
-
hyol
or Cwtch?
-
Soni
okay so nostr is key-based identity but with instances?
-
hyol
yes
-
Soni
why bother with the instances at that point
-
singpolyma
Relays exist because sometimes people are offline
-
Soni
okay but consider: instance-based identity but with multiple instances
-
hyol
why?
-
Soni
no keys!
-
singpolyma
Sounds like nostr
-
Soni
*no key management*
-
singpolyma
If you have key management your app is broken just make a better app. That's not protocol related imo
-
Soni
exactly! nostr is broken by design!
-
hyol
how would you authenticate across multiple servers without keys?
-
Soni
linked accounts
-
hyol
hmm
-
Soni
bonus! you get effective moderation!
-
hyol
how so?
-
singpolyma
> exactly! nostr is broken by design! No? It's the same design you are proposing ↺
π 1 -
Soni
you get to moderate just like on mastodon, you control what goes on your instance, but without the power dynamics between admins and users!
-
hyol
same with nostr relays?
-
Soni
nostr requires key management, lose key lose account
-
Soni
well it doesn't even have the concept of accounts but anyway
-
singpolyma
You could have a recovery system
-
hyol
oh, I see. "bonus! you get effective moderation!" was about your idea in general, not a response to "how would you authenticate across multiple servers without keys?" "linked accounts"
-
singpolyma
Anyway I feel like this stopped being on topic quite some hours ago...
-
hyol
It's on topic here: xmpp:technopolitics@conference.macaw.me
-
Soni
tbh, we're just looking for someone who'd be willing to do to xmpp what we did to irc
-
Soni
(or to matrix. maybe this would fix matrix.)
-
Soni
(but we digress)
-
hyol
Matrix was planning on implementing p2p iirc. Maybe they would be interested in implementing your idea.
-
jjj333_p (any pronouns)
> Matrix was planning on implementing p2p iirc. Maybe they would be interested in implementing your idea. as someone who has hosted matrix, p2p matrix is the most laughable idea ive heard ↺
π 1 -
jjj333_p (any pronouns)
i feel like xmpp you could p2p reasonably enough with some server for groups, matrix is just a performance and resource consumption nightmare
-
jjj333_p (any pronouns)
my single user server with one of the lighter implementations uses 3+gb ram, 4 cpu cores regularly maxxed out, and 60gb just for the database, and this is for an always online server without having to catch up from offline
-
Soni
out of curiosity, how many xmpp users come by here to talk about the kinds of things they'd like to see resolved?
-
Soni
at least with mastodon, we notice very few actual users get involved in the development process
-
singpolyma
More probably go talk to actual projects and implementations. This is more like a space for coordinating between implementors
-
Soni
that makes sense. we wonder if any (which) of the implementations actively reach out to users to include them in the development process when figuring out their next steps...
π 1 -
moparisthebest
> nah, we don't do p2p Soni, oh well you wouldn't like XMPP then since servers talk to each other over XMPP S2S which is fully P2P, fediverse and matrix are P2P at a server level too ↺
-
moparisthebest
nostr on the other hand is *not* p2p, it's clients publishing to any number of relays that *do not* talk to each other
-
Soni
ah, so nostr is like bittorrent if it was a social network
-
Soni
that's even worse, but we digress
-
moparisthebest
> that makes sense. we wonder if any (which) of the implementations actively reach out to users to include them in the development process when figuring out their next steps... many (probably most?) of us here, and this includes me, were just users looking for a good chat system to use, found XMPP, and have over the years improved protocols & clients & servers to meet our own needs ↺
-
Soni
(and we don't understand why the hostility)
-
moparisthebest
there's no hostility here, it just seems like to me you are projecting problems that exist only in other networks onto XMPP where they don't exist at all...
-
Soni
well... yes, in some ways. tho we disagree on the "don't exist at all" part
-
Soni
like, y'all proposed literally ban evading when we brought it up
-
moparisthebest
even that is a bit of a misunderstanding I think
-
Soni
maybe, but this is what you've given us to work with
-
moparisthebest
I've seen 2 kinds of bans on XMPP: one is users mass spam scam messages in 1:1 chats, it's fairly rare nowadays, but used to be a bunch of carder spam etc, obviously these accounts were reported to admins and banned - I don't get the impression you are after evading these kinds of bans
-
Soni
yeah we've come across those
-
Soni
what's the other kind?
-
moparisthebest
the other is in a MUC like this one, where someone either spams or doesn't follow the rules - I don't actually get the impression you mean to evade these kind of bans either, do you ? this is akin to coming into someone's house and smashing things and being asked to leave and being like NO I WON'T, pretty rude :)
-
moparisthebest
this second one is what I think 99% of us think of when someone says "ban evasion" and so we have an instant reaction to not liking it :P
π 1 -
moparisthebest
it's mainly because the kind of ban you are talking about on fediverse, the petty dictator admins banning entire domains, simply doesn't happen here ever
-
Soni
nope, our idea wouldn't allow us to "evade" those in the first place
-
Soni
yeah, the kind of ban we're talking about is like, "oh this is an instance full of traumatized transfems *block*"
-
moparisthebest
check https://github.com/JabberSPAM/blacklist for instance, 18 domains blocked in the first 4 years, none since, and only after *extensively* trying to contact the admin and get them to handle the first kind of spam coming from their domains
-
moparisthebest
yes, that kind of domain block simply doesn't exist here, it *could* even be because we don't tend to have, uh, themed servers ?
-
Soni
maybe
-
Soni
on the other hand, having a way to sidestep this kind of domain block could actually *encourage* this kind of domain block
-
moparisthebest
conversations.im jabberfr.org chatterboxtown.us etc etc are just generic servers anyone can use
-
Soni
"oh it won't affect my users *block*"
-
moparisthebest
the only reason any of them would ban each other is if one became unmaintained and a ton of spam started coming from there
-
Soni
*nod*
-
moparisthebest
then the other class of server is just the private server like mine which I run for me and my family, no one would block that whole thing either
-
Soni
maybe it's just fedi trauma, but "it hasn't happened yet" doesn't feel very reassuring tbh
-
moparisthebest
all that said, if you really want to do this "send from multiple accounts simultaneously and de-duplicate on the reciever" anyway, it's actually very easy in XMPP because of it's eXtensible nature, you can add custom payloads in stanzas that will be delivered, I'd recommend something like `<xmulti xmlns="soni:1" id=uuid-here>` and then all messages with the same id you could de-duplicate of course you have to take into account "attackers" who might also inject the same UUID or whatever but that's your deal :)
-
Soni
*nod*
-
moparisthebest
the important part is your own namespace, other than that you can do whatever you want
-
Soni
alright
-
Soni
uh, thanks. also we're sorry about earlier
π 1 -
Soni
we got a bit worked up
-
moparisthebest
no problem at all, like I said I'm 99% sure it was our gut reaction to what "ban evasion" usually means vs the totally different thing you meant :)
π 1 -
moparisthebest
and personally I think the best solution is making servers trivial to self host, but that's ok too, we can both work on our own things (: only makes XMPP better for all
-
Soni
yeah!
-
Soni
... we do need to try to avoid taking on more projects tho, and try to actually finish a few >.<
π 1 -
moparisthebest
boy do I know that struggle...
-
singpolyma
Don't worry. I quadrupled my free timer and thought aha! Now I can finish some of these? Haha jokes I just started 20 more
-
Soni
well, we're gonna sleep, trans rights o/
-
Schimon
Good afternoon! Are there people here who are interested in a moderation bot with support for xmppbl? I am working on a bot. I am interested that people would test it.
-
moparisthebest
Schimon: yes but it already exists
-
Schimon
moparisthebest. Which projext do you know of?
-
Schimon
I know Sid Kaliko https://kaliko.gitlab.io/sid/rtbl.html
-
moparisthebest
Schimon: oh hey 2 now scroll to bottom https://xmppbl.org/channels
-
Schimon
moparisthebest. Thank you.
-
Schimon
Link https://code.matthewwild.co.uk/riddim is offline.
-
MattJ
Yeah, sorry
-
MattJ
Will try to fix that soon
-
Schimon
I want to add my bot to the list. Do you know who is the administrator of xmppbl.org?
-
Guus
Schimon, is there no contact info on the page itself? If not, then I assume that the admins of that page do not wish to make them publicly known (as they could face personal backlash of people not very happy with the tool that's created being effective). I suggest that you announce your tool in a few of the better-known places (like this MUC, maybe a mailinglist or Mastodon post) and there'll be a good chance that it will be picked up.
-
Schimon
Guus. That you for the advise. I will work on publishing the bot.✎ -
Schimon
Guus. Thank you for the advise. I will work on publishing the bot. ✏
-
dusty
Been wanting to get into Dev for awhile and I know some but mostly Automation coding like ladder logic, and some structured text. What are the best ways to self learn to get a job in Dev?
-
singpolyma
Hmm, depends a bit what kind of dev you want to do. Apps? Web? Server? Etc
-
moparisthebest
The best way right now appears to be something like "lie and put 'AI prompt engineer' on your resume" π
-
singpolyma
Only if that's the job you want. Not really the same as dev
-
doge
i also want a job
-
kalkin
doge: how is your cv coming along? I offered you a few month ago an latex template.✎ -
kalkin
doge: how is your cv coming along? I offered you a few month ago a latex template. ✏
-
squiddie
kalkin: isnt it jabber dev only chat? To me you seem to be violating rules by being too offtopic
β 1πΏ 1 -
squiddie
https://upload.yax.im/upload/3a6_rJ8Eg6yNPPiglDN0IUCR/zb2rhZgwsYf4fv68vW291RXMgzcxdqGuz5diHUWGkotNrWuST.jpg
-
squiddie
kalkin: is this you
-
hyol
To continue the conversation Soni started:
-
hyol
> and personally I think the best solution is making servers trivial to self host, but that's ok too, we can both work on our own things (: only makes XMPP better for all 1) I don't think this is the best solution because a lot of people have multiple identities. Should they have to host a whole new server with a whole new IP address for each identity? ↺
-
moparisthebest
hyol: you can host unlimited identities and/or servers on 1 IP
-
hyol
2) On admins being assholes: This does happen. I was on a server run by someone with a groupchat. He had a breakdown and banned everyone (incl. me) from his chatroom and at least me from his server.
-
hyol
I lost a lot of connections that way.
-
hyol
Yes, I can rebuild them again. But that involves trusting new OMEMO keys if you want to use that.
-
hyol
Not ideal.
-
hyol
> hyol: you can host unlimited identities and/or servers on 1 IP Then they can be connected by IP address. ↺
-
doge
Is there a xep for b64 encoded inline soyjaks?
β 1 -
Cynthia
no, because that'd be highly specific
-
Cynthia
maybe b64 encoded inline images?
-
doge
I think we could utilize xmpp's great expressivity to optimize a soyjak delivery mechanism, for example: ``` <message from="romeo@capulet.li" to="juliet@hrt.paradise"> <soyjak xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html"> <soy-tag xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#tags">gem</soy-tag> <soy-tag xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#tags">markiplier-soyjak</soy-tag> <soy-tag xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#tags">gapejak</soy-tag> <soy-tag xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#tags">chudjak</soy-tag> <soy-tag xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#tags">closed</soy-tag> <soy-tag xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#tags">mouth/soy-tag> <soyjak-payload type="inline"> <data xmlns="https://booru.soyjak.st/xep/001.html#inline-payload"> {b64} </data> </soyjak-payload> </soyjak> </message> ```
β 1 -
Soni
hyol: did you catch up on the discussion?
-
hyol
Trying to find messages from before I joined in. Gajim can't find them. I'll try the web-based logs on xmpp.org
-
doge
why would that happen..
-
hyol
Is there some way I can go straight to when Soni first joined?
-
Soni
it was 2 days ago
-
hyol
> hi Found it ↺
-
dusty
> Hmm, depends a bit what kind of dev you want to do. Apps? Web? Server? Etc Apps or server ↺
-
theTedd
Learn general programming first, then you will gain experience of various areas, and then you can decide which interest you most
-
singpolyma
dusty: there's a lot of fine tutorials around for early jetpack compose stuff if you're looking to play with android and kotlin
π 1 -
dusty
yes sir
-
dusty
thanks
-
hyol
> _TwO Users CHatting_ _TwO Users CHatting GRacefully About Simple Sausages_ ↺