jdev - 2025-04-10

Yours is one :)

when does a message type `normal` happen?

mellium documentation says it happens when a message is sent outside of a dm or groupchat, and to which it is expected the recipient will reply

https://pkg.go.dev/mellium.im/xmpp/stanza@v0.22.0#MessageType

dms, group chats, and a secret third thing

Happens whenever an app or service wants to send one, heh. In practise most chat apps don't use them for much these days

> when does a message type `normal` happen? In _the olde dayes_ (early 2000s), one mode of messaging was that messages were essentially one-off 'postcards' - you'd send an individual message, often as a reply to another individual message, but without a chat history - a dialog would appear when you got a message and you could reply or dismiss, then the dialog was gone. 'Normal' messages were based on that (think "email lite"), while 'chat' messages are what's most common now. ↺

there was also type 'headline'

(again, trigger a notification, but also meant not to be archived by the recipient)

From a protocol PoV the right way to think about these is as delivery classes. Headline means only deliver if effectively online. That means archive along with chats. Normal is anything else, probably needs storage hints etc

From a protocol PoV the right way to think about these is as delivery classes. Headline means only deliver if effectively online. Chat means archive along with chats. Normal is anything else, probably needs storage hints etc

yeah, headlines are the most ephemeral

'Headline' was meant for server-wide announcements and admin messages, e.g. "This server will be going down for maintenance at 0500 for approximately 30 minutes." And then expanded to include other types of announcement, e.g. breaking news, sports scores, etc.

Server maintainence to sports updates! Gotta love that progression 😏

Once you have useful functionality, it gets used

It's primarily used for pep and pubsub now, to notify you if online and otherwise you can fetch from the node when you connect

> From a protocol PoV the right way to think about these is as delivery classes. Headline means only deliver if effectively online. That means archive along with chats. Normal is anything else, probably needs storage hints etc would it be _breaking_ spec to just archive it with normal messages, and just handle for the different forms the from field might take? ↺

i feel like its bad ux to not archive recieved messages unless explicitly configured to do so.

as for headline being basically deliver only if online, i assume the server will shake that one out?

or am i misunderstanding here

When the message says "do not archive this" I'm not sure what you'd gain by archiving it

it depends from what the message is being sent, i guess im missing context

but i would expect if someone messages me that ill be able to find that message later somehow

or are all dms and whatnot expected to be chatmessages?

it just sounds like based on this chat its more or less a once view message or something of that sort

No app is letting people send you headline messages and if it did it would be for some highly specific reason

no-store messages aren't likely to be messages a human intentionally sent you, it's more things like typing notifications

> no-store messages aren't likely to be messages a human intentionally sent you, it's more things like typing notifications oh, (though arent those usually groupchatmessage or chatmessage?) ↺

> No app is letting people send you headline messages and if it did it would be for some highly specific reason no i got headline is basically server anouncements, but my understanding is they arent nostore ↺

im more confused about normalmessage since thats aparently nostore and can it come from users?

> im more confused about normalmessage since thats aparently nostore and can it come from users? ? who says that ↺

users chat with other users, either in a groupchat or normal chat, hence type "groupchat" or "chat"

> im more confused about normalmessage since thats aparently nostore and can it come from users? Headline is no-store by default; other messages are usually stored unless they have a 'no-store' hint ↺

``` // NormalMessage is a standalone message that is sent outside the context of a // one-to-one conversation or groupchat, and to which it is expected that the // recipient will reply. Typically a receiving client will present a message // of type "normal" in an interface that enables the recipient to reply, but // without a conversation history. ``` - mellium stanza package

thats a developer package

no user will use this

yes developers can develop applications that send normal messages in specific reasons that a XEP tells you to

🤦‍♂️

no shit its a developer package

but i dont know where other developers are using it

are you asking us as a developer in what circumstances you should use "normal" messages?

then we can give you a list of examples

> are you asking us as a developer in what circumstances you should use "normal" messages? yes. ↺

i thought i had made that clear

you writing a groupchat component, and you send a groupchat invite to a user

The Mellium blurb is trying to explain the usage of type=normal - as I explained earlier - no history just refers to the user interface, it's not on a protocol level. Most clients aren't differentiating type=normal from type=chat (they're treated the same)

> The Mellium blurb is trying to explain the usage of type=normal - as I explained earlier - no history just refers to the user interface, it's not on a protocol level. Most clients aren't differentiating type=normal from type=chat (they're treated the same) ah this makes a lot of sense, thanks ↺

> you writing a groupchat component, and you send a groupchat invite to a user okay this makes a lot of sense, and explains why ive had issues capturing invites in the past ↺

just think about automated messages, most of them are type=normal

nah maybe even that is too much

type = normal is actually a bit rare

but if it is used its for something automated

are invites usually normal in your experience?

We use type=chat more and more often as a "carbons and mam please" signal

jjj333_p (any pronouns), dont think this is a free choice

there is a type for every circumstance

you need to look it up in XEPs

Like JMI calls are usually type=chat even though they're dubiously in a "chat context"

> We use type=chat more and more often as a "carbons and mam please" signal ah. i feel like a lot of this is server directives more than client directives, am i right in that instinct? ↺

Yes of course

Client should mostly not care

> there is a type for every circumstance i suppose yeah ill rtfm, i've not had a chance to look at invite spec, as it hasnt been relevant yet, i just wanted to get a feel for it first ↺