jdev - 2025-05-18

> Matrix is much more different than just "JSON instead of XML". I'd rather say it's a totally different and unrelated protocol. It was designed with IRC in mind and definitely inspired by numerous proprietary messengers and web chats of the time, but… totally unrelated to XMPP, like XMPP doesn't even exist and is not worth even mentioning. there are more people (and projects, etc) on IRC than here and that's really saying something. The only people on this damned protocol (or specifically the open federation) are us XMPP developers ↺

tbh that's part of why I'm an XMPP developer, because I'd like to change that and make it accessible to people outside of the high tech developer circle. Part of this will be seamless client-side bridging (particularly, support for public bridges and ID formats of bridged networks so you can just kinda paste the ID in and connect)

halscode: old gajim had that, among others

an example of features we had but ditched

Monocles (Cheogram/Conversations too?) has some minor support for it, if you sync your contacts with the app it adds phone numbers via Cheogram, at least. But that in particular is probably not what most people want, especially since they probably have a phone number already that isn't through Cheogram

halscode: as I understand it, that gateway recognition feature (which is merged from Cheogram) should work with other transports too, if they declare an address format

Cheogram and not Conversations ^

> tbh that's part of why I'm an XMPP developer, because I'd like to change that and make it accessible to people outside of the high tech developer circle. Part of this will be seamless client-side bridging (particularly, support for public bridges and ID formats of bridged networks so you can just kinda paste the ID in and connect) yeah and all bridges are garbage in my experience ↺

My feeling is, there are much more non devs using xmpp, only they don't use public channels much. Nearly every "normal chat" user just uses 1:1 and private groups.

At least that's true for all people I know IRL that are using it...

Yep. My wife, my parents and some friends use xmpp for 1-1 and private groups. None of them are in any public chat.

> Yep. My wife, my parents and some friends use xmpp for 1-1 and private groups. None of them are in any public chat. Same here ↺

Similar for my thousands of customers I'm sure. They have no need for public channels

Thousands customers for JMP? Wow, I'd expected this to be a niche.

I'd love to have something similar with "bring your own phone number" and then use data only simcards, but afaik it only works with canadion or murrican phone numbers. :(

> Thousands customers for JMP? Wow, I'd expected this to be a niche. Double Wow. Congratulations.

Martin: aiui there is a need for an .eu partner carrier (like Bandwidth is for the .us/.ca route)

Not sure what that means. o.O

Martin: for north america the jmp numbers are at bandwidth.com (a voip provider that also services e.g. Google Voice)

I think there is a need for a similar partner for EU numbers

I mean something like jmp for europe with "bring your own number" would get me sold, but I can't go around and expect people to call and write to a murrican/canadian number. Also I have only changed my number once in 2001 and do not intend to do it one more time. ^^

yes, understood

> I mean something like jmp for europe with "bring your own number" would get me sold, but I can't go around and expect people to call and write to a murrican/canadian number. Also I have only changed my number once in 2001 and do not intend to do it one more time. ^^ 💯 ↺

Yeah, I really hope someone will do something similar here. But not sure if it would be sustainable as xmpp is quite niche. That's why I was so surprised about thousands of customers for JMP. I always have the expression that xmpp is more popular in europe, so thousands of customers is impressive.

Martin: i think the whole ID requirement is the problem

with EU phone numbers

Why? I can move my number from operator A to operator B easily. Why should that not be possible with operator C that's like an european JMP?

i don't think you can transfer your *personal* number to a business

like control over it and such

I'm pretty sure my current provider is also a business. :)

Yeah. That's not the issue

And I moved my number from provider to provider (each one being a business) several times over the years.

VoIP is just not so common here I think. And more expensive

yaeh i was gonna say

(I mean of course every number is VoIP at this point I guess, but you know what I mean)

The main thing is just finding a carrier willing to partner with us and with good access to the sms features etc that customers expect

singpolyma: a&a for .uk numbers was interested, yes?

Well wo don't have that SMS censoring at least like it seems to be common in the US. I can write the **** I want

WTF? US are censoring SMS?

lol

Always, or only when it is Trumpistan?

i don't think they censor SMS messages from VoIP numbers

for*

wgreenhouse: we have software integration with a&a but they denied by application for an account even after taking my money

Martin: it's the industry group representing the mobile providers, so no, not a trumpistan fatwa exactly

That's terrible, so it means that will also remain once they overcome Trumpistan. :(

Martin: in 2018, the FCC had a vote where they agreed that wireless carriers can block unwanted text messages

correct :(

And not all USA carriers censor the same way. One of our partners is just particularly egregious which is why we have multiple

*sigh* this world is broken…

don't rely on an unencrypted medium for proper communication :P

even the FBI says so

Of course, I prefer xmpp. But with non-xmpp people I have to use SMS as I refuse to use WhatsApp.

also i thought that SMS censorship happens similarly in the EU

I'm not aware of that. But maybe I just was not yet using forbidden words. What is typically censored? Political things or 'murrica like things like boobs and nipples?

i think it's just unwanted messages

like spam

Ok, so more a spam filter rather than censoring.

i think the censor part of this is that you can't really turn it off or something?

Yes, terrible if you lose messages without knowing as there are spam filters applied you can't control.

> Ok, so more a spam filter rather than censoring. Same in our case. Just takes a carriers decided that every message that says fuck must be spam... ↺

lol

might have not been with bad intentions, maybe they dealt with a ton of pornographic spam messages before they snapped :P

> I'm not aware of that. But maybe I just was not yet using forbidden words. What is typically censored? Political things or 'murrica like things like boobs and nipples? My 12 year old got blacklisted temporarily for texting her classmate a question about their homework regarding the kingdom of kush ↺

the important question is why your 12yo is not communicating with classmates via XMPP, silly.

It's harder to convince a group of 12-year-old girls to use XMPP than it is your own daughter

I hoped that my addition of the "silly" made the sarcasm suffiently clear :)

It was

If I were a childhood drug dealer, "I was asking about homework" might have been my excuse too

Hmmm, no idea why this is worth censoring, I don't even know what it is and my dictionary also fails: > dict kush > No definitions found for "kush", perhaps you mean: > fd-eng-deu: bush gush hush lush mush push rush tush > kish > german-english: kuh kuss > english-german: bush gush hush lush mush push rush tush > kish > fd-deu-eng: kuh kuss

Martin, urbandictionary has some ideas

Martin: it's a mountain range on the indian subcontinent (the hindu kush) and also a named-for-the-place strain of cannabis

so presumably banned as a drug word

which is dumb

Start naming drugs after random nouns and gradually get every word banned ✏

sounds like fun

So where are all the free-sprechers when you need them?

Maybe same place as all the NRA guys when the state is overthrown.

https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/what-the-open-world-must-do-better/

(Please don't shoot me. I'm just the messenger. The guy lists an email for comments)

`.fun` is bloody expensive now

oh wrong pit sorry

icantevenafford.fun

>NXDOMAIN Truly

Same for icanafford.fun

> My feeling is, there are much more non devs using xmpp, only they don't use public channels much. Nearly every "normal chat" user just uses 1:1 and private groups. that and maybe group chats, which are of course the main focuses of my client and you've also got to ask, why are they using this instead of the much easier to use whatsapp? probably because some XMPP enthusiast forced them to ↺

or, lack of censorship so they can say all the nazi bullshit they want, but there is a lack of data on all of this

aggregated analytics from clients might not be a bad idea to that end

> Martin: it's a mountain range on the indian subcontinent (the hindu kush) and also a named-for-the-place strain of cannabis Thx > Maybe same place as all the NRA guys when the state is overthrown. Aren't the NRA guys also the Trump guys storming?

> > Martin: it's a mountain range on the indian subcontinent (the hindu kush) and also a named-for-the-place strain of cannabis > Thx > > Maybe same place as all the NRA guys when the state is overthrown. > Aren't the NRA guys also the Trump guys storming? more or less ↺

> the important question is why your 12yo is not communicating with classmates via XMPP, silly. Actually she is only using XMPP, but her friends use SMS so she's going through jmp.chat ↺

Martin: this is what they were studying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush

I might need some help. So, I have a test account for my client at jappix.org. I can get offline messages for that account when I sign in to it with Gajim, but I don't get them when I sign in on my app. There's no indication in the logs from the SDK, which go back to the stream initiation and initial presence, of those messages being received. The test account shows up as online to other clients, and the presence Gajim receives from it has default/missing priority (this is no different from what Gajim does; I checked), default type, caps, and `<show>chat</show>`. I think the server does try sending it because the offline messages sent before I started my app don't show up when I log out of it and log in to Gajim. Why might I not be receiving them?

I see code in my app for offline messages so I know I've done it before, maybe this server only implements XEP-0013? which would be weird because Gajim receives no `<offline xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/offline' />` in the message?

My first guess would have been caps, but otherwise check your library isn't eating them

why would caps affect it?

It indicates which features you support - if you don't support receiving offline messages, they're not going to be sent to you

halscode: one only doing legacy offline messages, one doing MAM?

It could be possible that Gajim is doing MAM, my client is not (I tried a long time ago and it didn't seem to work)

especially since it includes a mam:temp namespaced tag (or whatever the actual namespace was; it was something like that) (which might be why it didn't work in my client; I picked a more recent MAM version that wasn't temp)

Gajim is using MAM, and XEP-0013 is deprecated

But if the server has 'http://jabber.org/protocol/offline' in its caps then you could try it as a test

Very curious: disco#info at jappix.com reports msgoffline, http://jabber.org/protocol/offline, and MAM 0, 1, 2, and tmp are all supported

Enqueue some messages for that account, and then request them after login (also note there is a purge command that could be removing them)