jdev - 2026-01-17

> In this example, the message body has a few characters at the end (&#xA) that are not in the oob url lissine, sorry missed your message, that makes sense. ↺

> The intention behind "free to chat" was as an explicit invitation for people to message you (please, I'm bored!), while people were less likely to randomly message you just because you were online for fear of bothering you. This would actually be really useful in my friend circles. "Not wanting to be bothered" is an actual thing now (for better or worse) ↺

> To this day SMS is the default here, 80 year olds use it, 5 year old kids use it, wild Shows the power of a widely deployed, affordable, federated standard ↺

>> The intention behind "free to chat" was as an explicit invitation for people to message you (please, I'm bored!), while people were less likely to randomly message you just because you were online for fear of bothering you. > This would actually be really useful in my friend circles. "Not wanting to be bothered" is an actual thing now (for better or worse) sure but that's for the reciever to implement on their side ↺

The concept of expecting the sender to know when to send you things or not is bass akwards

✏

I disagree, those are two separate needs

what are? Only one is needed and the only one that makes sense is you deciding when you want to be alerted about messages

The alternative is expecting everyone else to learn and check and abide by everyone else's preferences which is obviously insane

singpolyma, if your only requirement is to send free text via pubsub, i guess a lot of XEPs could be used

I would go for having at least the functionality thats whatsapp has

this means, free text, and attaching of files

if we want show account wide, this should also be added, but im not so sure about that, at least i heard no complaints about our current show combine algo from different devices

this is actually one of the xeps that would have very good cost/benefit ratio and are easy to write

everything is basically in place, we just have to write it down and combine it

the only thing that worries me is that we keep adding to pubsub, and i think its not sustainable in the long run, because we get spammed by more and more data on startup

currently Gajim has +notify on nodes of contacts for Nickname, OMEMO, Avatar

if you have a roster of 100 contacts, this means every +notify you add are 100 stanzas more on startup

it gets worse if we dont take care that only minimal data re transmitted in these notificaitons, thats a main reason to split stuff up into metadata and data nodes

lovetox, PAM was meant to do something about this. And Georg Lukas reminded us frequenly (and correctly) that +notify only really works for mutual presence subscriptions, not one-way. Maybe it's worth raising this problem at the Summit, and seeing if we can find some viable solutions? It's long overdue a re-examination.

i read PAM, i dont see how it solves the problem of receiving too many stanzas

hmm ok maybe i understand, so we use normal subscribe and put all events in MAM

so on join we receive only stanzas from contacts where the node changed

it would be good if we could filter out the pubsub message when we request MAM, i can imagine if i set up a new client, im not interested in pubsub events i missed a week ago, because i need to gather a current state anyway from each contact

> this means, free text, and attaching of files attaching of files? Are you talking about something else, maybe stories or such? ↺

No, check whatsapp

That's a very successful feature that many people use to share photos and moments with their contacts

> You can use WhatsApp Status to share photos and videos that disappear from view after 24 hours. Sounds exactly like the stories xep

No, please, don't transform XMPP into another PubSub protocol…

We have enough already

> No, please, don't transform XMPP into another PubSub protocol… Too late. That happened several decades ago :) ↺

XMPP is pretty much the OG pubsub protocol

PubSub protocol with yet another one implemented on top of it, lol

Not sure what that means

You mean presence is pubsub ish but we also have pubsub proper? And MUC. Three pubsub protocols!

basic XMPP is already pubsub from the start, logging in and setting your priority+carbons is subscribing to your jid node, joining a muc is subscribing to the muc node etc etc

MUC isn't "basic xmpp" nor is carbons. But presence certainly is

right you can remove carbons with the caveats

> The concept of expecting the sender to know when to send you things or not is bass akwards It's not a requirement by the recipient, but a self-imposed restriction by the sender out of politeness (an alien concept for you, I know), i.e. "they may be online, but that doesn't mean my unimportant attention-seeking message is a worthy distraction;" so an explicit "your inane messages are welcome" invitation is useful (in some cultures/social circles) ↺

that "self imposed restriction" is an antiquated concept from the days when the reciever couldn't control notifications, ie "don't call after 9pm because you might wake people up" etc

No, it's not about notifications

expecting all your contacts to: 1. Do timezone math 2. Respect your idea of "politeness" even though they might have a different culture than you is stupid on your part

i think this is inverted, i agree with moparisthebest, that there is no need for a sender to care about the status because they want to be polite, thats a weird solution. If someone does not want to be disturbed the solution needs to be on their device, and not depending on politeness of others. Implementing new ways so people can be more polite seems a solution in the wrong place

Again, it's not a need or requirement by the recipient. The _sender_ makes this choice - you may not understand or agree with it, but it is a thing that people do

that being said, the prime use case for knowing the status of the contact, is not to be polite, its so i know if i can expect a answer in time from this contact

It's not only stupid it's actively harmful because it invites bad feelings from you towards people who you think aren't polite because they don't get your unwritten mental rules

the fuck?

this is used everyday in the business context, i look at the status not to be polite, because I need something, and i need it now, and i need to know if i can expect it from this person

moparisthebest, proposing technical solutions to social problems, are we?

no, the opposite

no we are talking about what the reasons could be that someone needs to know stauts (away, xa, online)

one argument was, so i can be polite and not message a contact

and moparisthebest, thinks this is not a good reason to look at status

I think that's a very good reason to look at a status.

dnd for example is quite a good signal.

> moparisthebest, proposing technical solutions to social problems, are we? also on a different topic it's wild people still say this because every technical solution is for a social problem lol, horse drawn plow is a technical fix for the social problem of having to spend your whole day hoeing to eat ↺

signal for what, jonas? You would not send a message to some that is DND, because its inpolite?

No, it's not about telling you _not_ to message, it's about _inviting_ you to message; you're confusing your own wants with other peoples' behaviour. If I'm online and you need something, of course message me; if you just want to chat about nothing, that's literally a waste of time (but sometimes that's welcome, sometimes not)

> and moparisthebest, thinks this is not a good reason to look at status I'd go further, it's a good reason for status to not exist at all to look at, because it invites the problems I mentioned earlier ↺

i mean i think we can agree status is so we can tell other people our status, i dont have expectations what they do with this information, certainly i dont expect them to not message me

Yea that's a compromise I can live with

If you put your device on ring then get mad it rings when I call you though then you are in the wrong :P

Are you purposely missing the point?

im not sure what the initial argument is about, if we need status at all? or why we need it?

removing presence seems like it would be difficult at this point, since so much internally relies on it

The mini-discussion was about the "chat (to me)" status and its original purpose, though it's now effectively ignored by most clients who view it simply as another "available"

The purpose was to _invite_ others to send you messages

Not that others should not send you messages without that status

ok i missed that, in fact Gajim maps free for chat also to available

but yes this is subtle, because the other status can be interpreted as information outgoing without expectations

while free for chat somehow is subtle different, and invites messages

> The purpose was to _invite_ others to send you messages I get that's your use-case, I'm saying I've never heard of this nor have known anyone who expected anything to be used like this before, so you should be aware others don't know your unwritten conventions ↺

so it says, i set this status, so please do something

moparisthebest, but you can read this just into the status from its name

> I get that's your use-case, I'm saying I've never heard of this nor have known anyone who expected anything to be used like this before, so you should be aware others don't know your unwritten conventions If I set that status it has zero effect on you or my expectations of you ↺

I am Free for Chat, implies a bit "chat with me"

I don't, no one I know even knows status exists

Largely because most clients hide it

lovetox, yeah. if someone is in dnd, I'll think twice whether my message is truly important enough.

why?

because you think you disturb them?

yeees?

_Politeness_

But thats not the case in any chat application i ever used, jonas?

if im dnd, you cannot disturb me

lovetox, what is not the case?

why?

because the chat application does not tell me about the messge

that depends.

example: I am in dnd because I'm in a focused discussion with *one* person via that chat application.

hmm would be pretty bad DND if it would, and defeat the purpose

so I will definitely (want to) see messages in that application.

at the same time, I want less distractions.

hence, dnd status.

> example: I am in dnd because I'm in a focused discussion with *one* person via that chat application. If you want notified only for messages from one person then that's what you should set your device to do ↺

moparisthebest, not talking about notifications.

and what about actually important messages people might send me while I'm in dnd mode? I wouldn't want to miss those.

whatever, set your device to do what you want at any given time

Short summary: different people use chat applications in different ways; expectations and behaviour vary; your experiences are not representative of the whole world

indeed, and they don't have to.

they must only work for your circle.

so jonas i note that you seem to have this expectations of others, but i can tell you about me, i never learned this social norm to not message someone in DND, i see it as just a information for me to not expect an answer.

The alternative is trying to educate all your contacts individually about how and when you want to be messaged and that is silly

lovetox, that's the work context, yeah.

moparisthebest, we have status messages for that :-).

"DND -- please don't message me unless it's important"

No because then I'd have to educate all my contacts that this exists and where to see it and what it means

I seem to recall clients showing that next to the contact back in the 2000s / 2010s

yeah ok i think its not of value to argue about this point

which means they see it immediately.

(but of course, with multiple clients that's all more difficult, which brings one back to the "presence status should be a PEP node" argument)

it doesnt matter on what side you are on this, point is presence is good and needed :)

yes back in the 2000s when people were still poorly trying to support the home phone model where you couldn't turn it off for some contacts

(because having this per client is very silly. bonus points if one client mirrors Android's ringing mode and sets you to dnd all the time because you turn off android sounds by default.)

but thats exactly what i wonder would be a problem with show in PEP

>presence status should be a PEP node "let's overcomplicate things which don't need to be changed"

lovetox, what exactly?

im on my laptop, dont want that my phone pings the whole time, i set it to do not disturb, and suddenly my whole account is

lovetox, ah. that's why tying presence status to notification settings is a bad idea.

so i see pros and cons here, i see use cases for per device and account

the per-device stuff doesn't need to be announced to the world, methinks.

it's an "implementation detail" for others that I answer messages using the laptop, and not the phone.

they don't need to know my phone has notifications turned off.

or do they?

(might matter for calls, maybe?)

anyway, I'm out for today o/

depends, if im not on my laptop, and im in a meeting

i certainly do want that to be reflected in my status

and its nice if the phone does this automatically when i set it to silent

fsvo nice ;-)

as someone who has his phone on silent *always*... it's actually not helpful at all.

seems a typical situation where it does not matter how you do it, its wrong for someone

in such situations i refrain from making changes like moving something to PEP, because then i just fix problems for some people, and make it worse for others

Almost as if: > different people use chat applications in different ways; expectations and behaviour vary; your experiences are not representative of the whole world

this would create more problems than it would solve

also what i dont think works at all, is setting status "manually"

(for you)

like i expect software to make this automatically, if i take a call, it should show that, if im in a meeting, if i put on silent etc

its a time waste to every 20 minute change my status

micromanaging style

And those can be done automatically, of couse, but that doesn't mean nobody ever wants to change their status manually too

but only one of your clients would know that

> but only one of your clients would know that back to square one ↺

theTedd, if the status is global and not per device, this becomes harder

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this partly why device priority exists? ✏

im actually on the side, let each device announce their state, and define a algo that merges them in a way that makes sense

sunglocto, priority had other reasons, i think it changed message routing by the server

this all proves my point perfectly, status means something different to everyone and is therefore always going to be a potential source of misunderstanding, all solved forever by... not having status at all look ma a social problem introduced by tech and solved by removing the tech, neat

you can avoid misunderstanding entirely by never communicating anything at all!

discord's rich presence may be an example

> this all proves my point perfectly, status means something different to everyone and is therefore always going to be a potential source of misunderstanding, all solved forever by... not having status at all > > look ma a social problem introduced by tech and solved by removing the tech, neat You're seeing what you want to see. "This feature is imperfect and I don't use it, so nobody should be able to use it!" Yay, progress. ↺

> you can avoid misunderstanding entirely by never communicating anything at all! Ah, the dream ↺

your status is per account but your presence (watching a video, or playing a game) is per device

well, sort of, Away detection is inherently per device

but if you _manually_ select Away, then that's an account setting

which I think is reasonable

i agree

can someone explain the pubsub stories XEP, i dont get it. So seems this is some kind of profile for the social feed XEP, which in essence just says publish stuff on the node urn:xmpp:pubsub-social-feed:stories:0. Then it makes the limitation that each entry on that node is only allowed to attach a single media link. Why is a story only allowed one media link? Seems a weird limitation to set here

Probably because the goal is not to do as much as possible but to give instructions on how to reproduce the behavior of instagram etc

(Just a supposition)

yeah, but unfortunate, because people on whatsapp post reels of photos all the time in their status ✏

but its experimental maybe we can lift this limitation

otherwise it looks good, this could indeed be used for publishing a status

how does that microblogging with comments/reactions exactly work? I create a node where i let subscribers publish, but i let only presence contacts subscribe, this should limit the functionality to the roster And when i receive content from the node i distinguish comments from posts by the publisher attribute?

I've heard that on insta you can publish multiple stories, that's how you put multiple media

> I've heard that on insta you can publish multiple stories, that's how you put multiple media This, a story is one media available for a specific amount of time, if you want to publish several, you publish several ↺

mhm, yeah i could automate this by splitting up the images into multiple posts

reactions to stories are just chat messages with a link

i think this is also nice, keeps it simple and reactions are not public

i can see Gajim implementing the story XEP as a replacement for presence status message

>> I've heard that on insta you can publish multiple stories, that's how you put multiple media > This, a story is one media available for a specific amount of time, if you want to publish several, you publish several If you publish several how is it different from just a blog at that point? Because it must have a hero image? ↺

its different because items expire after a time

and also you cannot comment in the usual way on pubsub

how a client displays the multiple items each with a picture, i would guess is up to the client

i can display all images in a kind of gallery for example

remember we cannot put expiry per item, its a node config

so you cannot put it into your microblogging node, because your whole blog would expire

Also that you cannot comment publicly is important, otherwise you have basically a public blog, and you need to care about deleting comments you dont want, or that people can see each others comments