XMPP Service Operators - 2017-11-07

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  98. edhelas I have more and more accounts created from Indonesia that use movim.eu as money transfer solution
  99. edhelas https://software-otomax.com/
  100. edhelas https://tigerengine.co.id/
  101. edhelas you should have a look at connected sessions on your servers
  102. edhelas resources are TigerEngine and OtomaXC
  103. edhelas *OtomaX
  104. edhelas thoses accounts are now systematically deleted from my server
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  107. edhelas http://lebamboledirosita.blogspot.nl/2016/10/roket-pulsa-irs-otomax-tiger-engine.html
  108. edhelas SIP resources as well by the way
  109. edhelas JIDs are often containing "reload", "oasis", "center", "terminal" or "pulsa"
  110. Ge0rG edhelas: I've got a bunch of those too, with gazillions of messages in MAM :(
  111. edhelas well time to cleanup them
  112. Ge0rG edhelas: Can you read whatever language that is?
  113. edhelas /SIP /OtomaX /TigerEngine
  114. Zash Google Translate
  115. Ge0rG I'm not sure it is really money transfer
  116. edhelas also resources that are starting with "FF"
  117. Ge0rG I mean: you can't transfer money over XMPP (yet). So whatever they do is only a kind of information / approval flow.
  118. Ge0rG Maybe people are using it to pay for their daily expenses, and you kick them out?
  119. Ge0rG What if they can't afford their food without our XMPP servers?
  120. Zash <error:payment-required/>
  121. edhelas Ge0rG I'm fine with that, the issue is that they are using a server in europe, and those services are not free for some/most of them
  122. edhelas also the fact that it's quite ugly and create a lots of MAM messages, I'm talking about 100 of Mb each weeks/months
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  184. Maranda just hard limit the number of stored messages per account...?
  185. Maranda 100 Megabytes of mam messages mean hundred of thousands ++, I don't see a usecase for a *normal* user if MAM is about account entities.
  186. Ge0rG I've manually disabled MAM for the accounts with 100k+ messages in the log
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  188. Holger edhelas: FWIW, you could tell the server to not enable MAM storage for a given account until a MAM request is issued.
  189. Ge0rG I wish prosdy would just default to MAM=off
  190. edhelas Holger how ?
  191. Holger Ge0rG: And let clients auto-enable it?
  192. Maranda Well... my server is configured to allow 5000 stored messages per account after which the oldest will be discarded. Also MAM *SHOULDN'T* be enabled by default, but users *SHOULD* enable it with prefs explicitly.
  193. Ge0rG What Maranda said.
  194. Holger Maranda: Clients or users?
  195. Holger Maranda, Ge0rG: Huh. Ugly UX.
  196. Holger edhelas: mod_mam: request_activates_archiving: true
  197. edhelas thx
  198. Maranda Ge0rG, I implemented MAM so that it's by default disabled until it isn't explicitly enabled by users(/clients).
  199. Ge0rG Holger: it should be automatically enabled by a client doing a MAM query.
  200. Ge0rG but off by default
  201. Maranda Since it's not such a used feature tbh.
  202. Holger Well these things should probably be admin-configurable.
  203. Ge0rG I had to shutdown my server today for ~10mins to compact a 5.5GB SQLite database.
  204. edhelas sqlite O_o
  205. Maranda what's wrong with sqlite?
  206. Maranda >.>
  207. edhelas and why compact, just remove old ones no ?
  208. Ge0rG Maranda: I have to shutdown / SIGSTOP prosody when working on the DB
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  210. Maranda Ge0rG, also btw it should be really trivial to change prosody's default mod_mam behaviour, you just need to change the default prefs in the code, if it's not configurable already.
  211. Ge0rG Maranda: I think the trick is to make it auto-enable MAM on the first _read_ access. https://prosody.im/issues/867
  212. Ge0rG Zash doesn't want me to have nice things... :(
  213. Maranda I don't agree, there're prefs.
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  215. Maranda the above would be a hack.
  216. Maranda A client or user through it can just change the prefs to enable or change logging.
  217. Ge0rG Maranda: are the prefs a tristate of off/on/not-set?
  218. Maranda Nope... you can do much more elaborate things with prefs.
  219. Maranda Like don't log anything cept these jids etc.
  220. Ge0rG I mean: can the client determine if the pref is "off" or "not yet set"?
  221. Maranda Yes, by retrieving prefs
  222. Maranda Not set doesn't exist
  223. Maranda https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#prefs
  224. Maranda see 6.1.1
  225. Holger I agree it's a hack.
  226. Holger But currently quite useful in practice ...
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  228. Ge0rG I don't think it's a hack. We could just standardize it.
  229. Ge0rG Or maybe add a business rule for client-controlled initial activation
  230. Ge0rG Maranda: you lied. "The <prefs> element MUST be present and contain the current default archiving policy."
  231. Maranda I didn't lie
  232. Maranda ‎[16:22:53] ‎Maranda‎: Not set doesn't exist
  233. Maranda Tell me where I lied.
  234. Ge0rG So the client can't determine if the prefs were set before or not.
  235. Holger It can query them with an IQ-get.
  236. Maranda O_o, why would it need to
  237. Holger Example 19/20 in 0313.
  238. Ge0rG Holger: and the server MUST respond with prefs.
  239. Maranda You just retrieve the prefs like I said.
  240. Ge0rG Holger: there is no way for the server to tell "not yet configured"
  241. Holger Ge0rG: Ah right.
  242. Ge0rG 16:22:17 Ge0rG> I mean: can the client determine if the pref is "off" or "not yet set"? 16:22:32 Maranda> Yes, by retrieving prefs
  243. Ge0rG that was the lie!
  244. Maranda Because that's not a possibility, there're 3 defaults
  245. Maranda read the xep >.>
  246. Maranda always, never, roster
  247. Ge0rG Maranda: my point is: there is no way for the client to find out "hey, this account never used MAM before, we should enable it"
  248. Ge0rG Maranda: so the server-side hack of enabling MAM on the first query is actually sensible
  249. Ge0rG Maybe I should write a note to the LC thread.
  250. Maranda No it's not, you just retrieve prefs, and then eventually set logging accordingly.
  251. Holger And fight against your other client which does it the other way round?
  252. Maranda That seems an overcomplication for "I dunno what"
  253. Ge0rG Maranda: you are missing my point
  254. Ge0rG Maranda: I want MAM disabled until the user has a client that supports MAM.
  255. Ge0rG Maranda: and then automatically enabled
  256. Maranda No I get it (now), but that's not a server problem, if you use multiple clients kicking each other in the nuts the server shouldn't deal about it for you.
  257. Ge0rG Maranda: because there is no "not yet configured" value, the clients can't know if they need to do the initial activation or if the user is paranoid
  258. Maranda You want an element stating when it was last configured? Propose it.
  259. Ge0rG Maranda: so you still are not getting it :(
  260. Ge0rG Maranda: no!
  261. Ge0rG Maranda: I want a UX where the first MAM-capable client can automatically determine that it's the first and either auto-enable or ask the user. Once.
  262. Maranda Ge0rG, you ain't getting me bud, they. don't. need. to.
  263. Maranda A client needs to figure what's the actual configuration and default, *then* deal with it.
  264. Maranda You're overcomplicating something which otherwise is simple.
  265. Ge0rG Maranda: except it's not simple
  266. Holger It's simply not possible without changing 0313 :-)
  267. Holger Ge0rG: Anyway isn't the hack like 5 lines of Lua?
  268. Ge0rG Holger: it's possible on the server side with the "hack"
  269. Maranda Yes, so propose it as I said.
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  272. Maranda and then, a server implementation of MAM may not allowing setting prefs, what would you do in that case...?
  273. Holger Ge0rG: Yes I meant it's not possible for the client to do the right thing with the current 0313.
  274. Ge0rG Maranda: commit suicide.
  275. Maranda .
  276. Ge0rG Maranda: but yeah, see. It's getting more and more complicated.
  277. Ge0rG Maranda: I suppose if the MAM policy is enforced by the server, there is no "initial undefined" state
  278. Maranda I said that ages ago, that's what the current protocol provides.
  279. Ge0rG Maranda: you said what, where?
  280. Maranda ‎[16:22:53] ‎Maranda‎: Not set doesn't exist ‎[16:22:53] ‎Maranda‎: Not set doesn't exist
  281. Maranda bbl
  282. Holger Ge0rG: "It's not possible with the current protocol." Marzanna: "You're wrong! It's not possible with the current protocol!"
  283. Ge0rG *shrug*
  284. Holger s/Marzanna/Maranda
  285. Ge0rG So "I said that ages ago" was not a post to standards@
  286. Holger Time is relative.
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