XMPP Service Operators - 2018-04-16

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  186. nuron

    @ping trashserver.net

  187. nuron

    @ping shreddox.ei

  188. Echo1

    nuron: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: DNS resolution failed

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  190. nuron

    @ping shreddox.eu

  191. Echo1

    nuron: Pong from shreddox.eu in 3.253 seconds

  192. Echo1

    nuron: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: connection-timeout

  193. nuron

    @ping trashserver.net

  194. UsL

    Its down. First i thought it was my usual problem with gajim and wicd again.

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  196. Echo1

    nuron: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: connection-timeout

  197. nuron

    > Its down. First i thought it was my usual problem with gajim and wicd again. Yes, trashserver.net is down. There is a problem with mam_muc module. I think Thomas try to fix it..

  198. nuron

    Have the same problem with prosody after I updated the modules

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  200. nuron

    @ping trashserver.net

  201. Echo1

    nuron: Pong from trashserver.net in 4.023 seconds

  202. nuron

    Its up again

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  205. MattJ

    What problem, do you know?

  206. nuron

    The mam_muc module doesn't work...

  207. Holger

    Maybe it's this: <https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/rev/39994c6bb314>?

  208. nuron

    I will send it Thomas..

  209. nuron


  210. Martin

    He just States there is 'a problem' https://social.tchncs.de/@trashserver

  211. Martin

    And earlier ranted about prosody and MySQL 😃

  212. nuron

    Of course, because I have texted him that mam muc doesn't work ;)

  213. Holger

    There are no problems, there are opportunities.

  214. Martin

    Challenges 😃

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  216. nuron

    We'll see

  217. Holger

    Martin: Isn't challenges the thing we had 10 years ago, while we've now realized this still sounds way too negative? I might be mixing things up.

  218. Martin

    Holger: maybe I'm not up to date with these euphemisms

  219. Holger

    The trashserver admin sees an opportunity to test https://github.com/ortuman/jackal it seems :-)

  220. Martin

    Lets call everything celebration and try to solve all problems with party and dope 😃

  221. Holger


  222. Martin

    > The trashserver admin sees an opportunity to test https://github.com/ortuman/jackal it seems :-) It seems he is eveb thinking about getting involved in development

  223. Martin


  224. nuron

    Yes, he is

  225. Maranda


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  227. Maranda points with enphasis

  228. Holger


  229. Maranda

    Maybe but since everything supports it while most doesn't support the other

  230. SamWhited

    I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not, but it really is… if you have a datbase that you've started with that you're forced to use, fair enough. If you're starting fresh and use MySQL you're just asking to lose data.

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  232. Maranda

    I'll just keep swearing in dead languages at it whenever InnoDB tables just decide to corrupt 'emselves

  233. Holger

    Maranda: Oh I thought this was the rant you were about to make :-) I'm not into SQL engines and don't care.

  234. SamWhited

    I say that, InnoDB is actually a fairly nice storage backend in a lot of ways. But MySQL's nonsense still makes it not worth using.

  235. SamWhited

    Mostly innodb won't corruptp itself to my knowledge, but it will decide that you obviously don't know what you're doing with your query and it should make a lot of assumptions and corrupt your data

  236. Maranda

    SamWhited, *my* query? 😎

  237. SamWhited

    Everybody's query!

  238. Holger

    SamWhited: You lost me, InnoDB won't corrupt itself but what?

  239. Maranda

    The queries aren't *mine* I'd need to ask the web junkies who wrote 'em. But not that it matters much

  240. Maranda

    PostGRE didn't corrupt with the equivalent queries

  241. Holger

    SamWhited: You can get it to corrupt data with queries that are bogus in some way? Or with valid queries InnoDB incorrectly considers bogus?

  242. SamWhited

    Holger: Sorry, I'm just ranting. As an example, mysql in its default mode will happily decide that because you accidentally queried for where intcolumn = '1_whatever' that you *obviously* meant hat to be "where intcolumn = 1" and it will select that and insert data even though your query was a mistake and you were trying to query against a string column or something

  243. SamWhited

    Holger: with invalid queries that shouldn't run

  244. SamWhited

    It also ignores constraints in a lot of cases; it's trivial to make non-nullable columns contain an ull.

  245. Holger

    Ah, I see.

  246. SamWhited

    It's worth noting that you can turn all this off and that mysql people will swear that this makes it fine… but naturally you have to know that and go to more effort to have any sort of data consistency.

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  248. Maranda

    SamWhited apparently though saving caches in MySQL "is not a thing" while it causes no issues in pgsql

  249. SamWhited

    Also, the utf-8 type isn't actually wide enough to encode utf-8… so they have another utf-8-for-real-this-time type that does it right… the whole thing really is a joke.

  250. SamWhited

    Maranda: saving caches? I'm not sure what you meant by that, sounds bad though.

  251. Holger

    We do that :-)

  252. SamWhited

    I have wasted a lot of time trying to make things work on mysql… so I'm a bit bitter now :)

  253. Holger

    With InnoDB.

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  255. Holger

    (Saving/restoring it's main buffer/cache thing on restart, I mean.)

  256. SamWhited

    ah, gotcha

  257. Maranda

    I had Orchard storing page caches in MySQL and it was corruption all over until I figured it was that

  258. Maranda

    The same wouldn't do a thing in PG

  259. SamWhited

    Interesting; I don't know how innodb stores pages, I'd be curious to know why that lead to corruption.

  260. Holger

    It seems to work just fine for as. As usual with anecdotal evidence ...

  261. Holger

    For us even.

  262. Holger

    (Or maybe we're talking about different features.)

  263. Maranda

    I don't care about the database (engine), as long as it's supported by the stuff I need to use and doesn't cause hassles.

  264. Holger

    This is not how flame wars work.

  265. Maranda


  266. MattJ

    One of the ways of making something not cause hassle is making sure you use the right thing for the right job

  267. Maranda

    On the xmpp server I proudly use flat files for a reason.

  268. SamWhited

    MySQL in general will cause hassle though… I don't think there's a job it's uniquely suited for. If you want speed, don't use a relational database. If you want data consistency, use a different relational database.

  269. Maranda

    MattJ, are you trying to citate Scotty on me :P?

  270. SamWhited

    The only reason to use mysql is because you already have a database that uses it and you're stuck with it.

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  273. Maranda

    SamWhited, or that the stuff you need to use or that people need you to use requires it?

  274. SamWhited

    Yah, fair

  275. SamWhited

    Although I'd also consider using other tools at that point; requiring mysql gives me no confidence in your <insert project> or that it won't lose my data.

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  277. SamWhited

    But that's obviously not always an option.

  278. Holger

    SamWhited: We've been using hints to fix MySQL's optimizer choosing wrong indices for weird corner cases. I hear that's frowned upon in the Postgres universe, Postgres should just always get it right and if it doesn't, post a bug report. Sounds really good to me, except if there's a realistic chance I could run into the situation where I have to post a bug report and wait for a fix.

  279. Maranda

    SamWhited, I just give you an example, all mainstream web analytics apps (mostly php) don't or badly support pgsql

  280. Holger

    Of course there may really be enough magic in Postgres that this won't happen in practice, I have no idea.

  281. Holger

    Apart from that I've seen long lists of reasons to prefer Postgres and not much vice-versa, yes.

  282. SamWhited

    Holger: I have never had it get it wrong, but if it does I don't think it's impossible to direct it to use a different index, they just ask that you also file a bug report.

  283. Maranda

    Holger, well posting a bug report about MySQL doesn't work much better either...

  284. SamWhited

    That being said, the data for most of the projects I've worked on wasn't that complex, so it may have trouble in places. I'm sure it's not right 100% of the time.

  285. Holger

    SamWhited: As I understood it there's no explicit directive to do that (on purpose). But there may be tricks to do it of course.

  286. Maranda

    I'm not sure from how much time in practice MySQL workbench migration from Postgres is just plainly broken.

  287. Holger

    Maranda: My point was that MySQL offers you a workaround for the time until the bug is fixed.

  288. SamWhited

    Holger: yah, don't listen to me, I thought there was but I don't see it now. Might have been cockroach DB feature that I'm mixing up or something.

  289. Maranda

    Good thing I'm not a DB expert at all

  290. Maranda


  291. SamWhited

    Does innodb support multicolumn indexes? I've purged my mysql knowledge after leaving a previous job…

  292. Holger

    Oh yes it does.

  293. Holger

    SQLite does :-)

  294. Maranda


  295. Maranda

    MattJ, ^

  296. Holger

    SamWhited: But I have no real doubt that Postgres is probably the superior product. MySQL's success story seems to boil down to "everyone uses it" and that's basically how I got to know it better than Postgres as well.

  297. Maranda

    Also now it's Oracle's says it all.

  298. SamWhited

    Holger: yah, it was the same with me the first time I used a database, "well this seems to be what everyone is using, must be the best"

  299. SamWhited

    It's also "fast", which is why a lot of people like it. But it's speed comes from taking shortcuts that lead to data inconsistency like not checking constraints so you probably want something else if that's why you're using it…

  300. SamWhited

    Maranda: there's always MariaDB in that case (the non-oracle fork which is actually what I assume people are using for the most part when they say 'mysql' these days)

  301. Maranda

    and if it's speed me thinks Pgsql10 is faster anyways now

  302. SamWhited

    When I say we used "MySQL" at a previous job, we were actually on MariaDB I think. I shouldn't conflate the two, but I forget sometimes.

  303. SamWhited

    err, no, that's not true either, we had both. Gosh I'm forgetting all this.

  304. Maranda

    SamWhited, except afair MariaDB has no Windows release so I'm stuck with Oracle's :P

  305. Maranda


  306. Maranda


  307. Holger

    SamWhited: True in my case, I meant MariaDB when I said MySQL.

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  309. nuron

    mam_muc error mod_mam_muc should be loaded only on a MUC component, not normal hosts i found this in the prosody logs...

  310. nuron

    what does it mean?

  311. Maranda

    what it says.

  312. Maranda

    that you're trying to load it somewhere which is not a MUC component.

  313. nuron

    but how can i fix that? i have no idea

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  315. Maranda

    put it in modules_enabled = {} pertaining to (aka below) whatever *Component "..." "muc"* section?

  316. Maranda

    and not somewhere else or globally or somesuch

  317. nuron

    I'm sorry my English is not very well. I will try to understand..

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  320. nuron

    I have mam_muc in the modules_enabled list and in the virtual host part... Which one should I delete?

  321. SamWhited

    nuron: both

  322. nuron


  323. SamWhited

    Component "conference.example.org" "muc" modules_enabled = { "mam_muc", }

  324. nuron

    An then?

  325. SamWhited

    Put it under the "Component" line

  326. nuron

    Yes, there is it. Between only name, restrict_room_creation and max_history_messages

  327. nuron

    Component "conference.shreddox.eu" "muc" name = "Shreddox Muc's" restrict_room_creation = false max_history_messages = 100 modules_enabled = { "mam_muc" }

  328. nuron

    thats the part

  329. SamWhited

    That one is correct, you can remove the other one.

  330. nuron

    okay, i've done so. restart prosody now?

  331. SamWhited

    Yup, that should fix it :)

  332. nuron

    i'll try

  333. nuron

    just a second

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  336. Maranda

    no don't restart

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  339. nuron

    so, prosody is up again

  340. nuron

    lets have a look

  341. Maranda

    (that's pointless I think)

  342. Maranda


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  345. Maranda


  346. nuron

    why no restart?

  347. nuron

    there is no mam yet

  348. nuron

    no mucmam

  349. nuron

    1:1 mam should work

  350. SamWhited

    nuron: what version of Prosody is this?

  351. nuron


  352. SamWhited

    Ah, it's not fully compatible with 0.10. It should work partially, but some clients won't be able to detect it I think

  353. nuron

    i have updated the modules today a few hours ago and since this update mam_muc dont work..

  354. SamWhited

    See the note under "Compatibility" here: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_mam_muc.html

  355. nuron

    but i have used it three month ago and everything works fine

  356. nuron

    with prosody 0.10 as well

  357. SamWhited

    I'm not sure when this happened; someone in the prosody room might be able to give you more information

  358. nuron

    i will check the link first

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  412. nuron

    https://haste.tchncs.de/yujumudolo.pas That was also in the logs

  413. nuron

    and very often this log: conference.shreddox.eu:mam_muc debug <history xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc' since='2018-04-16T18:33:05.221Z'/>

  414. nuron

    dont know what to do :/

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  429. Maranda

    Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 debug Incoming s2s connection Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 debug Incoming s2s received <stream:stream version='1.0' xmlns='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'> Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug sending: <?xml version='1.0'?> Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug sending: <stream:stream xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' version='1.0' id='28cb310f-b8fb-4398-8527-8c8eabeb4913' xmlns:db='jabber:server:dialback' xmlns='jabber:server'> Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 warn No 'to' on stream header from unknown host means we can't offer any features Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug Sending stream features: <stream:features/> Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug sending: <stream:features> Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 debug Received[s2sin_unauthed]: <verify id='167c0bd9' xmlns='jabber:server:dialback' to='lightwitch.org' from='jit.si'>ca4847b1d2223b51899d27cfbce08a44153544b49bfc4ce45ddacfe8b58b8d83</verify>

  430. Maranda


  431. Maranda

    that's ancient

  432. Maranda

    @version jit.si

  433. Echo1

    Maranda: jit.si is running Openfire version 3.10.3 on Linux 4.4.0-22-generic (amd64) - Java 1.8.0_91

  434. SamWhited

    nuron: I'd ask in the prosody room, they're more likely to be able to help you.

  435. SamWhited


  436. nuron

    im allready there ;)

  437. Maranda

    Hmm I almost thought it was jabberd, but I vaguely remember OF doing it to verify dialback streams (or some such)

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