nuron> Its down. First i thought it was my usual problem with gajim and wicd again.
Yes, trashserver.net is down. There is a problem with mam_muc module. I think Thomas try to fix it..
nuronHave the same problem with prosody after I updated the modules
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nuron@ping trashserver.net
Echo1nuron: Pong from trashserver.net in 4.023 seconds
MartinHe just States there is 'a problem' https://social.tchncs.de/@trashserver
MartinAnd earlier ranted about prosody and MySQL 😃
nuronOf course, because I have texted him that mam muc doesn't work ;)
HolgerThere are no problems, there are opportunities.
MartinChallenges 😃
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nuronWe'll see
HolgerMartin: Isn't challenges the thing we had 10 years ago, while we've now realized this still sounds way too negative? I might be mixing things up.
MartinHolger: maybe I'm not up to date with these euphemisms
HolgerThe trashserver admin sees an opportunity to test https://github.com/ortuman/jackal it seems :-)
MartinLets call everything celebration and try to solve all problems with party and dope 😃
Holger\o/
Martin> The trashserver admin sees an opportunity to test https://github.com/ortuman/jackal it seems :-)
It seems he is eveb thinking about getting involved in development
MarandaMaybe but since everything supports it while most doesn't support the other
SamWhitedI can't tell if that was sarcasm or not, but it really is… if you have a datbase that you've started with that you're forced to use, fair enough. If you're starting fresh and use MySQL you're just asking to lose data.
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MarandaI'll just keep swearing in dead languages at it whenever InnoDB tables just decide to corrupt 'emselves
HolgerMaranda: Oh I thought this was the rant you were about to make :-) I'm not into SQL engines and don't care.
SamWhitedI say that, InnoDB is actually a fairly nice storage backend in a lot of ways. But MySQL's nonsense still makes it not worth using.
SamWhitedMostly innodb won't corruptp itself to my knowledge, but it will decide that you obviously don't know what you're doing with your query and it should make a lot of assumptions and corrupt your data
MarandaSamWhited, *my* query? 😎
SamWhitedEverybody's query!
HolgerSamWhited: You lost me, InnoDB won't corrupt itself but what?
MarandaThe queries aren't *mine* I'd need to ask the web junkies who wrote 'em. But not that it matters much
MarandaPostGRE didn't corrupt with the equivalent queries
HolgerSamWhited: You can get it to corrupt data with queries that are bogus in some way? Or with valid queries InnoDB incorrectly considers bogus?
SamWhitedHolger: Sorry, I'm just ranting. As an example, mysql in its default mode will happily decide that because you accidentally queried for where intcolumn = '1_whatever' that you *obviously* meant hat to be "where intcolumn = 1" and it will select that and insert data even though your query was a mistake and you were trying to query against a string column or something
SamWhitedHolger: with invalid queries that shouldn't run
SamWhitedIt also ignores constraints in a lot of cases; it's trivial to make non-nullable columns contain an ull.
HolgerAh, I see.
SamWhitedIt's worth noting that you can turn all this off and that mysql people will swear that this makes it fine… but naturally you have to know that and go to more effort to have any sort of data consistency.
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MarandaSamWhited apparently though saving caches in MySQL "is not a thing" while it causes no issues in pgsql
SamWhitedAlso, the utf-8 type isn't actually wide enough to encode utf-8… so they have another utf-8-for-real-this-time type that does it right… the whole thing really is a joke.
SamWhitedMaranda: saving caches? I'm not sure what you meant by that, sounds bad though.
HolgerWe do that :-)
SamWhitedI have wasted a lot of time trying to make things work on mysql… so I'm a bit bitter now :)
HolgerWith InnoDB.
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Holger(Saving/restoring it's main buffer/cache thing on restart, I mean.)
SamWhitedah, gotcha
MarandaI had Orchard storing page caches in MySQL and it was corruption all over until I figured it was that
MarandaThe same wouldn't do a thing in PG
SamWhitedInteresting; I don't know how innodb stores pages, I'd be curious to know why that lead to corruption.
HolgerIt seems to work just fine for as. As usual with anecdotal evidence ...
HolgerFor us even.
Holger(Or maybe we're talking about different features.)
MarandaI don't care about the database (engine), as long as it's supported by the stuff I need to use and doesn't cause hassles.
HolgerThis is not how flame wars work.
Maranda:P
MattJOne of the ways of making something not cause hassle is making sure you use the right thing for the right job
MarandaOn the xmpp server I proudly use flat files for a reason.
SamWhitedMySQL in general will cause hassle though… I don't think there's a job it's uniquely suited for. If you want speed, don't use a relational database. If you want data consistency, use a different relational database.
MarandaMattJ, are you trying to citate Scotty on me :P?
SamWhitedThe only reason to use mysql is because you already have a database that uses it and you're stuck with it.
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MarandaSamWhited, or that the stuff you need to use or that people need you to use requires it?
SamWhitedYah, fair
SamWhitedAlthough I'd also consider using other tools at that point; requiring mysql gives me no confidence in your <insert project> or that it won't lose my data.
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SamWhitedBut that's obviously not always an option.
HolgerSamWhited: We've been using hints to fix MySQL's optimizer choosing wrong indices for weird corner cases. I hear that's frowned upon in the Postgres universe, Postgres should just always get it right and if it doesn't, post a bug report. Sounds really good to me, except if there's a realistic chance I could run into the situation where I have to post a bug report and wait for a fix.
MarandaSamWhited, I just give you an example, all mainstream web analytics apps (mostly php) don't or badly support pgsql
HolgerOf course there may really be enough magic in Postgres that this won't happen in practice, I have no idea.
HolgerApart from that I've seen long lists of reasons to prefer Postgres and not much vice-versa, yes.
SamWhitedHolger: I have never had it get it wrong, but if it does I don't think it's impossible to direct it to use a different index, they just ask that you also file a bug report.
MarandaHolger, well posting a bug report about MySQL doesn't work much better either...
SamWhitedThat being said, the data for most of the projects I've worked on wasn't that complex, so it may have trouble in places. I'm sure it's not right 100% of the time.
HolgerSamWhited: As I understood it there's no explicit directive to do that (on purpose). But there may be tricks to do it of course.
MarandaI'm not sure from how much time in practice MySQL workbench migration from Postgres is just plainly broken.
HolgerMaranda: My point was that MySQL offers you a workaround for the time until the bug is fixed.
SamWhitedHolger: yah, don't listen to me, I thought there was but I don't see it now. Might have been cockroach DB feature that I'm mixing up or something.
MarandaGood thing I'm not a DB expert at all
Maranda:P
SamWhitedDoes innodb support multicolumn indexes? I've purged my mysql knowledge after leaving a previous job…
HolgerSamWhited: But I have no real doubt that Postgres is probably the superior product. MySQL's success story seems to boil down to "everyone uses it" and that's basically how I got to know it better than Postgres as well.
MarandaAlso now it's Oracle's says it all.
SamWhitedHolger: yah, it was the same with me the first time I used a database, "well this seems to be what everyone is using, must be the best"
SamWhitedIt's also "fast", which is why a lot of people like it. But it's speed comes from taking shortcuts that lead to data inconsistency like not checking constraints so you probably want something else if that's why you're using it…
SamWhitedMaranda: there's always MariaDB in that case (the non-oracle fork which is actually what I assume people are using for the most part when they say 'mysql' these days)
Marandaand if it's speed me thinks Pgsql10 is faster anyways now
SamWhitedWhen I say we used "MySQL" at a previous job, we were actually on MariaDB I think. I shouldn't conflate the two, but I forget sometimes.
SamWhitederr, no, that's not true either, we had both. Gosh I'm forgetting all this.
MarandaSamWhited, except afair MariaDB has no Windows release so I'm stuck with Oracle's :P
Maranda\\o
Marandao//
HolgerSamWhited: True in my case, I meant MariaDB when I said MySQL.
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nuronmam_muc error mod_mam_muc should be loaded only on a MUC component, not normal hosts
i found this in the prosody logs...
nuronwhat does it mean?
Marandawhat it says.
Marandathat you're trying to load it somewhere which is not a MUC component.
nuronbut how can i fix that? i have no idea
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Marandaput it in modules_enabled = {} pertaining to (aka below) whatever *Component "..." "muc"* section?
Marandaand not somewhere else or globally or somesuch
nuronI'm sorry my English is not very well. I will try to understand..
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nuronI have mam_muc in the modules_enabled list and in the virtual host part... Which one should I delete?
