Is there any way to increase file transfer reliability?
tom
file transfers with my friend keep failing
Martinhas joined
mightyBroccoli
Could you be more specific? Error code or the failure message displayed from the client?
alacerhas left
Licaon_Kter
tom: server? Server software? Client?
tom
Gajim 0.16.9 sending to Gajim 0.16.6 server is.... hold on
tom
whatever 404.city is on and....
Licaon_Kter
tom: oh....that Gajim is how many years old?
Licaon_Kter
Things have changed...
tom
Prosody
tom
Licaon_Kter, oh?
tom
I don't think there's a release of Gajim past 0.16.x that still supports gtk2
Licaon_Kter
Yeah, eg that upload namespace thing
Licaon_Kter
tom: eh....
tom
If you can tell me what's wrong I could probably figure out how to patch Gajim 0.16 myself
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
tom
My friend is also stuck on Gajim 0.16.x because of the forced gtk+3 and he's a programmer as well.
olihas left
tom
Licaon_Kter, what's up?
Licaon_Kter
tom: error logs?
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
tom
uhm.. let me check
tom
strange
tom
Does Gajim have error logs somewhere? or are you talking about server logs
tom
are you still with me Licaon_Kter ?
Licaon_Kter
tom: I dunno the answer...hence....
tom
ok
tom
I'll keep looking into it, so far it just show a X icon next to the failed trasfers. Not very descriptive
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
Link Mauve
tom, you should update, the 0.16 branch is abandonned, and so is gtk2.
Link Mauve
And there are many features which have been added in 1.0 and later, such as more failure-proof file transfer.
Link Mauve
Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^✎
Link Mauve
Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^✎✏
Link Mauve
Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depend on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^ ✏
peahas joined
peahas left
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
tom
gtk2 isn't abandoned, it still receives patches, if if that were to change I will patch it should a need arise
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
and gtk3 is not a generic toolkit, it's the gnome graphical toolkit
peahas joined
tom
it's also optimized for tablets, not computers.
peahas left
tom
and it isn't stable
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
I'd much rather fork Gajim 0.16 if nobody else is going to
tom
backport useful features
tom
gtk3 is so unusable to me that the effort required to backport and maintain 0.16.x is worth the effort for me
tom
even spending money to pay for development help
Link Mauve
tom, gtk3 will not see any newer minor version, only patch releases, that is the Debian definition of “stable”.
Link Mauve
It also is definitely not “optimised” more for tablets than for anything else.
Link Mauve
And yet also, not targetting GNOME in the slightest, there are just people involved in both projects.
tom
I've used the 1.x release
tom
of gajim
Jonnyhas left
tom
and it's probably the worst release i've ever used ui wise
tom
now if there is another jabber client out there that you'd recommend that doesn't force gtk+3 and doesn't fall for whatever the latest UI fads are and that isn't based on nodejs I would like to know
Link Mauve
Please open issues for things which could be improved.
Link Mauve
tom, hmm, maybe look for the Qt ones?
Link Mauve
Swift for instance, or Kaidan, or JabberCat.
tom
Link Mauve, I don't think Gajim wants to improve. I took some of my concerns to their muc and they just insulted me
Link Mauve
Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS.✎
Link Mauve
Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS at runtime. ✏
tom
I also don't see a valid reason for switching off of gtk2
Link Mauve
tom, I’m pretty sure it does.
Link Mauve
tom, oh, there is a very valid one: it isn’t supported by anyone.
tom
Well I will take your word for and and open a ticket
tom
Link Mauve, What do you mean supported?
Link Mauve
If your suggestion is just “switch from gtk3 to gtk2”, of course nobody will do that.
Link Mauve
But if you have valid UI or UX concerns, that’s relevant.
Link Mauve
tom, no one is pouring time to fix or improve gtk2 anymore.
tom
what is there to fix?
Link Mauve
Really?
Link Mauve
Have a look at all of the reasons for gtk3’s existence. :)
Link Mauve
The main one for me was Wayland support.
Link Mauve
gtk3’s is damn good.
Link Mauve
gtk2’s, well, inexistant.
tom
the last patch to gtk2 was 14 days ago
tom
commit c505d3f what do you mean not supported?
tom
also, what reasons for gtk3's existance?
tom
wayland isn't even stable yet, and doesn't work on the BSDs
Link Mauve
Look at the release notes if you aren’t aware of it.
tom
and X11 forwarding over SSH doesn't work on wayland
Link Mauve
tom, erm, can you please stop with the false accusations please? Wayland has been stable since 2012 and has worked on any system with UNIX sockets and shared memory.
Link Mauve
tom, it sure does, as long as your compositor provides an Xwayland integration (and all do, to my knowledge).
Licaon_Kter
This escalated fast....
tom
really? I didn't know
tom
Does wayland work on OpeBSD?
Link Mauve
tom, sure.
Link Mauve
I mean, it certainly has unix sockets, and shared memory support, as it exposes a POSIX API.
tom
So, as a person who has used X for a decade and has not had a problem with it, why would I want to use Wayland instead? and Why do most operating systems not ship with Wayland, but X instead?
Link Mauve
Some compositors may have additional requirements, such as OpenGL support for rendering, or udev for input, but at least when I had to run Weston on FreeBSD for a client that was working.
Jonnyhas joined
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
tom, personally, it was because I was tired of tearing happening all the time, and because of the complete isolation between processes, as well as the very simple and easy to understand and to extend protocol.
peahas joined
tom
I'm certainly not going to go ahead and install Wayland just to run a graphical toolkit that has not yet even justified it's existance over gtk2 that I don't even like
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
I've never experience tearing. Are you sure that wasn't just a graphics driver causing tearing?
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
Link Mauve
For instance I wanted to add quad-buffering support to a 3DS emulator, because that sounded like fun to be able to run its stereoscopic capabilities on a big 3DTV or VR device, and that was pretty much impossible on X11.
Link Mauve
tom, it’s a combinaison of many things, Xorg being single-buffered being one.
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
I am personally running 2 monitors, one of them being a 144Hz and 1080p while the other being 1900x800 at 60hz.
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
I don't experience any tearing besides what on the 60hz one if I play a videogame on it without vsync, but that's the monitor's fault. it's a cheapo unit and does that across any os
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
I’m pretty sure it isn’t due to the monitor, try it with Wayland for instance.
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
peahas joined
Link Mauve
I also had a lot of misconceptions before getting deep into the graphics stack. ^^
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
I can see process screen isolation being a useful feature if it doesn't break things like window managers, oneko, and such
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
but other than that, I don't really see how that only justifies a huge compatibility breaking change like that
Link Mauve
Of course it prevents your window manager from running, and oneko would have to be a priviledged client or part of the compositor.
tom
that doens't sound very good
Link Mauve
But it’s becoming very simple to build a full compositor by writing only code that you would write for window management before, with libraries like wlroots.
Link Mauve
So it’s only a matter that people were targetting Xlib only, and now have to target either Xlib or wlroots or both.
tom
so other than wayland compatibility, (which I don't see has justified or being worth the hassle) why else would someone want to switch to gtk3?
Link Mauve
Depending on whether they want full control over the display mechanisms, or if they want to delegate that to Xorg.
Link Mauve
In the latter case, they can’t support Wayland.
Link Mauve
tom, have you just made the effort of opening the release notes or design plan of GTK+ 3.0?
Link Mauve
If not, then there is no point to this discussion.
tom
https://lwn.net/Articles/300303/
tom
qrong link
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
tom
I can only find the release notes for gnome3
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
would you provide a link?
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
tom, second result on ddg: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2011-February/msg00022.html
andrey.utkinhas joined
tom
basing the theming api on CSS is a horrible idea
debaclehas joined
Ge0rG
let's build on the shoulders of giants?
peahas joined
Link Mauve
Note that that’s only the 3.0 release, not everything was done by then so the following releases added a lot of missing pieces, while always keeping it ABI compatible.
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
dbus integration is also a horrible idea. dbus sucks
Link Mauve
tom, I don’t see what’s wrong with it, most designers these days are used to CSS for apparence.
peahas joined
tom
just because something is popular doesn't make it good
peahas left
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
also, what was wrong with the privious theming api?
tom
*previous
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
Link Mauve
Most likely, that it wasn’t popular enough, so random passerbys had to learn an entirely new language to theme their application or DE.
peahas left
Link Mauve
But that’s a thing better asked to GTK+ people from 2008.
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
I can only speculate on their intentions.
peahas joined
peahas left
laghas left
laghas joined
tom
there were and are plenty of great gtk2 themes already out there
Link Mauve
Although this change seems to have panned well.
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
also, learning how to use your tools is just a fact of life
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
tom
regarding the last relase note, added an application chooser, I have a perfectly fine gtk2 based application chooser that didn't require a whole major release number to implement
peahas left
Link Mauve
tom, so what good does it give to have to learn two different languages, to make web applications and GTK+ applications, while it could be a single one?
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
https://0x0.st/zPsZ.png
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
because there is a difference between web applications and programs
tom
that line should not be blurred
Link Mauve
Eww, Flash.
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
That’s a thing I haven’t used in a decade.
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
tom, using CSS for theming is hardly “blurring” anything.
Link Mauve
And why should it not, btw?
peahas joined
peahas left
Link Mauve
Some other toolkits like Qt went much further with the integration of web technologies, integrating a JavaScript engine, CSS, QtQuick, and even Chromium for their web needs.
tom
when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine
tom
and Javascript is a terrible terrible language. It always was even from the beginning
tom
You can polish poop but at the end up the day it's still a peice of shit
tom
the compatibility breaking change of using css for theming does not justify itself in a cost to gain ratio. the gtk2 theming api is perfectly expressive enough for what it does and simple enough too
tom
I've made and modified my own gtk2 themes, i'm not talking out of my ass here
tom
>tom: when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine
sorry, something happened here. I meant to say:
when you attempt to blue the line of web browser and programs, you end of turning a markup renderer into a bloated, virtual machine
tom
*blur
debaclehas left
tom
does that answer your question?
tom
just to give you an example of the bloat of the fallacies that have brought us "web 2.0" firefox 52 (even before you had to compile rust to compile firefox) took and still takes longer than GCC to compile
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
GCC used to be the most bloated and longest to compile thing of the entire operating system
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
>* More flexible geometry management, with support for height-for-width,
for both widgets and cell renderers.
Why did a compatibility breaking change be needed to implement this?
tom
* Modern input device handling. The input device handling in GDK has
long been a sadly neglected area. This has changed; with 3.0, GTK+
steps into the modern world of XI2 with full support for multiple
pointers, keyboards and other gizmos.
Sounds like a GDK problem not a GTK problem. Just patch gdk
alacerhas joined
Link Mauve
Sorry I was doing something else.
tom
no problem
Martinhas left
Link Mauve
But a compatibility break eleven years ago, with a lot of other things required to change, has long since given benefits.
Link Mauve
The gtk2 theming API is just an artifact from the past nowadays.
tom
WHAT BENEFITS?
Link Mauve
tom, but I wasn’t arguing for bloating the web, it already does that on its own perfectly well, I was talking about using the useful parts of it, familiar to many, to make your own software more familiar.
Link Mauve
tom, see, I’m a random who only knows HTML and some CSS, I want to change some visual things in my IM client.
Link Mauve
Now, with gtk3 I can just apply my preexisting knowledge.
tom
yes, and I'm saying maybe so (i doubt it though) but that doesn't justify breaking everything to change it
Link Mauve
With gtk2, I’d simply be demoralised away by having to learn yet another language.
tom
well that's your own fault
Link Mauve
tom, the break happened for many other reasons, your gtk2 themes wouldn’t have been compatible with gtk3 even if they kept the language.
Link Mauve
tom, sure, you can blame the user.
Link Mauve
You can also accept criticism and aim for a more user-friendly experience.
tom
being demoralized from having to learn new stuff is
Link Mauve
I’ve met a lot of people identifying as web developers, who outright reject the idea to learn anything else.
Link Mauve
And they can live perfectly well.
Link Mauve
Same for Java developers, same for C developers, same for Python developers.
tom
that's why they are web developers
tom
and you can stay in in a bubble
Link Mauve
Yes, that’s in their self-description. What does it bring to cut yourself from these people in order to undo an eleven years old language change?
Link Mauve
With the hingsight, it’s only brought nice things.
tom
what? I don't understand your metaphors
Link Mauve
tom, there is no metaphor here.
tom
no one is self mutilating
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
and years of constant breakage and instability is not a nice thing
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
also completely abandoning decades of UI research for hamburger buttons is not a nice thing
pep.
Heh, still arguing about using gtk2? :p
Ge0rG
Mhm... Hamburgers!
tom
a button for buttons
Link Mauve
tom, “cut yourself out” means making a clear separation between you and a given set of people in English.
Link Mauve
tom, that’s an application developer decision, whether they put menus or other things.
Link Mauve
Nothing the toolkit can do for you.
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, oh, good idea.
Link Mauve
I should have breakfast, and start packing, I leave in less than one hour.
Link Mauve
And get out of bed too.
tom
because if you want to enter a new field, you should learn the tools of the trade. NOt attempt to adapt tools of a different trade before learning the traditional way of doing things.
tom
at least learn from the more experienced before attempting to forge your own way
tom
I don't go get a job as a car mechanic and refuse to learn a wrench and attempt to use a keyboard to change my oil
Link Mauve
tom, but as a random user, do you want to enter a new field, or simply customise your chat client?
Link Mauve
Using a chat client should never have the same requirements as getting a job as a car mechanic.
tom
I want a XMPP client for my computers that doesn't have a phone client. Also, If I'm going to be upgrading I want the upgrade to at least be equivalent or slightly better than what I had before
tom
*phone interface
Link Mauve
Same for me, except I don’t care where the inspiration comes for the interface.
tom
I want a computer interface on my computer. not a tablet interface on my computer
Link Mauve
I mean, I use a client inspired by terminal IRC clients, of course I don’t. :D
tom
I also refuse to lose customizability I had before
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
tom
for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels
tom
Gajim's 0.16.9 interface is probably the best IM interface I've ever used. Like ever
tom
then 1.x just completely throws it all out the window
tom
why?
tom
because windows are "old"
tom
not because what they are using now is better, but because popups and windows are "old"
tom
just because something is new doesn't make it better. and just because something is old doesn't make it worse
Ge0rG
focus-stealing popups always have been bad
tom
If nobody else is going to fix file transfer in Gajim 0.16.x I'll do it myself
tom
I would however appreciate some help in figuring out why exactly the issues are occuring in the fist place
Link Mauve
“10:54:10 tom> for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels”, great, all of those are customisable using *wait for it* CSS!
Link Mauve
tom, you can read the history between your latest commit and master.
Link Mauve
But be aware that it’s very long.
Link Mauve
And I wouldn’t advise doing that.
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
Why should I when gtk2 works absolutely fine?
tom
also the file picker in gtk2
tom
Nothing, not even the qt one comes close to it
tom
Can you show me a gtk3 theme that looks like gtk2?
Link Mauve
Raleigh?
tom
hmm. ok. I could use that as a middle ground in the meantime to fix the glaring ui design failures, but still, as with all my previous posts, the change to gtk3 is not justified in a cost to gain ratio
Link Mauve
With most software having moved, maintaining them all in an old version will only accumulate work.
Link Mauve
So, good luck in your impossible quest I guess.
Link Mauve
At some point maybe you’ll realise the cost to gain ratio is really not to your benefit.
Link Mauve
In the meantime, I’m going on weekend, see y’all next week! \o_
debaclehas joined
peahas joined
peahas left
mimi89999has left
mimi89999has joined
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
mati (jabber.at)has left
mati (jabber.at)has joined
tomhas left
tomhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Jonnyhas left
Jonnyhas joined
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
madmalkavhas joined
mimi89999has left
tom
Link Mauve, fuck you
pep.
:D
tom
I'm sick and tired of your passive agressiveness
pep.
I totally agree with Link Mauve (/me throws oil on the fire)
tom
why?
pep.
Maybe you should start a gtk2 support group for people traumatized with gtk3
tom
maybe you should stop being ass asshole
pep.
If you manage to gather enough people to maintain gtk2 it might become worth your time
tom
gtk2 is maintained, what are you talking about?
tom
the last patch was only 14 days ago
tom
are you actually asking or just trying to piss me off
tom
What really needs to happen is an anti-redhat group
tom
Every single thing to come out of redhat minus qemu patches and md has been a downgrade in the oss ecosystem
tom
dbus
tom
GNOME3
tom
consolekit
tom
PulseAudio
tom
FreeDesktop
tom
systemd
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
muppeth
lol
muppeth
ansible
tom
that too
muppeth
hahahaha because manually configuring every single server is so much better
tom
Redhat's a special fucking snowflake and can't using a staging tarball like every other unix os
muppethis evil gnome user that actually likes the new changes so i stay away from this one
tom
noting wrong with gnome2
tom
I actually used to use it
muppeth
and i'm comming form 10+ yeasrs of using only tiling managers
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
muppeth
tom i mean gnome3
tom
ok
tom
is there anyone here that agrees with me?
Jonnyhas left
muppeth
i moved to gnome because they droppped what they were doing and decided to do something new (aka gtk/gnome3)
Jonnyhas joined
tom
anyone at all?
tom
seriously, what the hell
tom
what the hell happened to the industry in the last 7 yeays]
muppeth
tom, i guess it moved on
muppeth
I dont see what your problem here is tbh
tom
why?
mimi89999has joined
muppeth
because as everything things move on
tom
Why is bloat and spyware the norm now?
muppeth
because people are borred of doing the same thing over and over again
muppeth
i dont know
tom
that's too general
muppeth
spyware?
tom
your just fucking with me
muppeth
where is the spyware in anything you mentioned?
tom
I'm trying to have a serious conversation about the stuff coming out of redhat and web not being good and all I get is assholes trying to derail
tom
like yourself
tom
I don't know why I spend the effort explaing this shit
muppeth
tom, imo all you do is shout some random shit, fueled by your frustration
tom
maybe I think your capable of reason
mimi89999has left
tom
obviously not the case
muppeth
itsa very simple. you dont like gtk3, as you mentioned gtk2 is still supported. whats your problem?
muppeth
someone higher said he likes web stuff. you dont. whats the issue. develop/use non-web stuff. period
muppeth
I dont like propretary software nor apple/google/windows etc. I dont use it
muppeth
how's that for a reason
tom
the problem is I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement, and I'm just met wet "just upgrade to gajim 1.x, oh you don't like gtk3? you must be some of of fuckhead then i'm right your wrong and stupid
tom
good luck with your impossible quest
tom
I don't need you to fucking tell me to switch to fuckin wayland
muppeth
tom, thats why i said i dont know what the initial question was.
muppeth
tom, noone tells you to do anything afais
tom
oh, were you not here for that conversation?
tom
I'm sorry then, that wasn't for you
pep.
tom: the specific issue with gajim is that the older versions don't support a ton of feature that are rather necessary nowadays. You might not like gtk3, but then you're cutting yourself from these other features and lose your rights to complain about them not existing (just like using pidgin nowadays is shooting yourself in the foot). You could make a gtk2 version of the newest branch of gajim maybe, or port these missing features in the older branch
tom
> a ton of feature
WHAT FEAUTURES?
Holger
> I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
That's my answer to your question about which spec offers more reliable file transfer, yes.
tom
so there's no way to fix peer to peer transfer on XMPP, it's just been replaced with http uploads?
Holger
I *think* that plugin should even work with 0.16 so maybe there's actually nothing to do besides installing it?
Holger
tom: Well p2p is hard(er) to make reliable.
tom
can it be?
tom
let me rephrase
Holger
Most clients basically replace it with upload yes. Not just because reliability but also to make it work with offline peers, multi-device setups, and group chat.
tom
if implementing perfectly by the spec, can p2p transfer be made to be reliable?
peahas joined
peahas left
Holger
I agree it's not exactly elegant but the fact that it just works is kinda nice.
tom
sure
Holger
tom: The problem is that there's multiple specs and incompatible revisions of those in the wild. Plus the limitations I mentioned above.
Holger
tom: Apart from that I think it can be made reliable, yes.
tom
hmm.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html says it's still only draft
Holger
Yeah if you take the XEP status seriously you can basically forget about XMPP.
Holger
For p2p you'd do XEP-0234 these days which is 'Deferred'.
tom
hmm. Looks like i'm going to have to switch XMPP providers to get that to work
tom
not a huge deal, I've been looking to host my own for a while now
carloshas left
carloshas joined
Ge0rG
Haha, I'm not the only one grumpy about the Gnome CADT model and all the new shit that's working differently from the old shit that I know to operate.
Ge0rG
BTW, hosting your own XMPP server is the first thing to be actually on-topic in this room
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
Holger
I don't quite get why everyone is mourning for the Gnome2 UI. It's just Windows 95 and there's still plenty (most?) DEs doing just that.
peahas joined
peahas left
Ge0rG
I think the problem is Gnome 3 with its opaque buttons where you have no way to find out what they do short of clicking and looking
peahas joined
peahas left
Ge0rGpatched away the full-screen shit with some LD_PRELOAD black magic, but it's still fugly
peahas joined
peahas left
Holger
Hmmm. Dunno I chose Gnome 3 as the first DE for my little son and he seems to cope just fine.
peahas joined
peahas left
Holger
Not sure what buttons you mean exactly. There aren't many in the first place :-)
Holger
(And on-topic is overrated.)
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
Holger
Whatever, I don't care at all what others use. I'm just happy the GNOME people tried something else because I think there's still plenty old-school DEs if you prefer those.
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
Ge0rGis running fluxbox which is based on blackbox which is ancient.
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
Holger
Ah I used that myself one or two decades ago :-)
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
muppeth
Holger, agree. I like gnome because its different. I used pretty much everything out there from fluxbox, xfce, kde, through awesomeWM and i3. I just deployed Gnome3 desktops at work and i was amazed by the reaction from normal non-tech folk that find it super comfortable to use. some even say its better then MacOS and i start recieving windows laptops form them (and now some of their friends that saw it) asking if I would "load" that linux thing on their personal computers.
peahas joined
peahas left
muppeth
so i guess gnome is doing something right. its not for everyone but so isnt Mate or tilling window manager
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
thank you for your help Holger
tom
muppeth, I think that's the problem. GNOME3 and gtk3 alienate 'tech folk' in favor of computer illiterates when their previous userbase is power users
muppeth
tom, totally disagree. I consider mysefl power user. I used tilling window manager exclusively for over 10 years. I moved to gnome now, being still power user
muppeth
i do undertsand people want to use tilling managers still
tom
heh
Ge0rG
everything is one huge tile in gnome3! :D
muppeth
i dont uderstand how using a DE make me less of a power user?! I use terminal for work. tbh most of the time i dont even need XServer to do my work
tom
I find myself doing to opposite, slowly moving more and more into tiling managers because i'm being alienated by gnome
tom
not because I like tiling
tom
because I can't find another option
tom
I"ve moved from gnome2 to matte, then they went gtk3
tom
then to xfce
tom
then they went gtk3
muppeth
maybe because gtk3 is better
tom
then to i3wm because I'm not sure whereless to go
Holger
tom: I understand how the GNOME transition was painful and alienated parts of the existing user base, but I totally appreciate *some* DE project targetting "computer illiterates" so I have something good to offer them.
vanitasvitaehas left
tom
there was already a project that targeted computer illiterates, and I don't see why gnome had to alienate it's own users to switch target userbases
Holger
But yes if it's about avoiding GTK+ 3 I see your problem. Qt not an option?
tom
https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US
pep.
People are almost never happy with change anyway, what's good for one is going to annoy the other. I'm fine if I'm not GNOME's target user anymore (or never was), I just don't use it
muppeth
but what is your problem really. gnome poeple wanted to do something and they did. according to your logic, software cannot change because there is this tom guy and he wont like it.
Holger
tom: Well I think it's hard to build a single piece of software that makes both power users and illiterates happy.
tom
qt is not as bad as gtk3, but it's still a downgrade. It also has no support for C
tom
also the file picker
muppeth
Holger, why? gnome3 or kde does just that. it makes non-tech and tech people happy.
tom
doesn't worker nearly as well as the one in gtk2 does
Ge0rG
Whoever is using C as a UI language, deserves all the resulting pain
vanitasvitaehas joined
tom
muppeth, no, kde is hard to justify in that case.
muppeth
just some poeple dont like it for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure there is a DE that fits them too and if it doesmt, well time to write your own tom
tom
KDE pissed people off soo bad and much that they went and created the Trinity Desktop Envrioment
tom
in the kde3 -> kde4 transition
muppeth
tom which people?! all 5 of them?>
Ge0rG
how many greybeard linux nerds do you need to write a Desktop Environment?
tom
muppeth, cut the smartass unhelpful remarks
tom
I'm trying to have a conversation
muppeth
tom, my remarks are no different then your whining. you blame decissions made by gnome team from your perspective.
muppeth
whats the point of this 'conversation'?
muppeth
whine that everyone
tom
>[05:10:18 AM] muppeth: tom which people?! all 5 of them?>
>[05:06:01 AM] muppeth: maybe because gtk3 is better
muppeth
whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?
tom
>[05:11:35 AM] muppeth: whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?
muppeth
tom, as you pointed out everyone moves to gtk3. it means it must be good right?
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
your attempting to derail to conversation
Ge0rG
tom: you are derailing the conversation for hours now.
peahas joined
peahas left
Ge0rG
This is the XMPP Operators Room. It is about XMPP Operators.
Holger
muppeth: In the context of window managers I'd call "power users" those who want a high amount of configurability/flexibility/extensibility and/or powerful features that aren't necessarily intuitive (i.e. tiling WMs or so).
tom
that doesn't justify muppeth's passive aggressive snipes
Holger
muppeth: In general I think offering more powerful UI often conflicts with intuitiveness because it requires a steeper learning curve.
Ge0rG
tom: you lost the remains of your credibility when you told Link Mauve to f*** themselves.
tom
muppeth, your rude
muppeth
Holger, yes. exactly. check dconf (very unintuitive, anti-userfirendly) tool to change every single bit of your gnome experience 😛 very power user frioendly 🙂
Holger
muppeth: Hence I think it's often hard to make both target audiences happy in one go.
muppeth
tom, I'm rude? I got active in here because i saw your insults towards others here.
Holger
muppeth: Nah dconf doesn't allow me to turn GNOME 3 into i3.
muppeth
Holger, i think its a good balance. non-power users have very little options to get overwhelmed or screw up with, while other can change every single piece. not to mention you can hook it all up to ansible and manage/configure every aspect on every desktop you administer.
muppeth
Holger, but also i3 doesnt allow you to become gnome. there are restrictions, although the tiling functionalities in gnome are getting interesting lately, so soon you will actually be able tyo make gnome into i3 while not the other way around 😛
muppeth
anyway as i said there are no bad DE/WM just different expectations of poeple, and its nice that you acctually have choice.
Ge0rG
Can we please get Poettering into here to discuss the merits of gnome3?
tom
If you ask me all this shit is just the Extend in Embrace Extend Exterminate
tom
and about non-power users have very little options
tom
non-power users have Windows and Mac OSX
tom
and they have https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US
solhas left
solhas joined
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
Why is the so much of a concern to write software for computer illiterates anyways?
Ge0rG
tom: because most users are computer illiterates
tom
Why are a lot of developers writing software for computer illiterates instead of themselves out of being paid to do it?
Ge0rG
tom: the right question would be: why are so many developers writing software for computer illiterates, despite lacking the required skills?
holgerhas left
tom
no, I'm asking why they would want to be going through all the effort of writing software for someone else with different interests and abilities while not even being paid to do it
Licaon_Kter
tom: because devs won't have work to do....?
solhas left
tom
if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?
solhas joined
Holger
> if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?
My impression is that's still the case for most spare-time devs.
Ge0rG
I'm a spare-time dev writing software for other people.
Holger
You're different!
Holger
Another impression is that there fraction of few software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.✎
Ge0rG
Damn.
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
Holger
Another impression is that there fraction of free software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days. ✏
Holger
So it's more driven by profitability these days.
tom
hm
Ge0rG
Not all of my software is profitable.
madmalkavhas left
Holger
You're different!
tom
Ge0rG is?
tom
why?
solhas left
solhas joined
alexhas left
Ge0rG
tom: I am why what?
holgerhas joined
tom
> Holger: You're different!
Ge0rG
tom: apparently because I'm writing software for normal people, and because not all of my software is profitable
tom
but that's what Holger was saying your different from yes?
tom
Holger, what you care to clarify?
Holger
Ge0rG is working on an XMPP client that targets normal end-users in his spare time. And my impression is that this is a somewhat uncommon case.
Holger
Or maybe somewhat specific to the XMPP/chat field. Where you have an interested to chat with others, possibly with illiterates. Which requires software that's usable by them.
Ge0rG
chat with illiterates! \o/
Holger
:-)
tom
by normal you mean computer illiterate right?
Holger
Yes.
tom
k
peahas joined
tom
If I might make a reccomendation
peahas left
tom
if you could make a stripped down xmpp client that only works in google chrome
tom
as a 'web app'
Ge0rG
it's called converse.js :P
muppeth
tom, I dont understand your argument. I'm not computer illiterate and i do like for example gnome. I have a feeling for you software for non-illetirates must look like its still 90s or something.
tom
most computer illiterates don't know how to use software and think that installing programs gives them viruses
peahas joined
peahas left
tom
they do everything from a google chrome. just look at email
muppeth
tom, not true. I run a platform that provides services to people and you would be suprised how many 'illiterate' people actually use it while you would think its only for the elitist power users.
muppeth
world isnt 0 or 1
peahas joined
peahas left
muppeth
i know few 'illiterate' people what use old xfce. not because they are power users that dont like change, but because they are used to their old wondows95 UI
tom
if your looking for adoption, that might be the way to go
muppeth
your preference for software does not make you better then others.
muppeth
or software better then the other
vanitasvitae
In my opinion computer illiterates should simply stay away from computers.
tom
I fully agree with vanitasvitae on this one, but unfortunately that's not going to happen
vanitasvitae
You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.
tom
well maybe, if you can isolate computer illiterates to smartphones that might work
vanitasvitae
Nonono
vanitasvitae
Smartphones are computers as well
vanitasvitae
Even lightswitches are, depending on the scientific model you use.
Ge0rG
> You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.
Nobody does that. Please turn off your computers immediately and become a potato farmer.
about the chrome-only webapp thing, that's actually a fairly popular thing. Thats the enture premis of ChromeOS
tom
You don't have a computer, you just have a netbook that only runs a web browser
Ge0rG
tom: https://inverse.chat
vanitasvitae
Ge0rG: lets collapse society!
tom
yeah, that doesn't even do anything but render a solid blue page in my browser ,even with javascript and cookies enabled
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: it was your premise. I'm perfectly fine using tech I don't understand
alexhas joined
muppeth
vanitasvitae, still it doesnt mean my workspace cannot look nice and needs to look like shit crafted in mid 90s. i still dont see how is gnome / gtk3 made for illiterates and hated universally by everyone that knows a bit of how stuff works.
vanitasvitae
"Mom, you're not a full stack developer? No Candy Crush for you!" Simple as that!
muppeth
hahahaha
vanitasvitae
I hope by now its obvious that my statement was not meant serious :D
muppeth
its more of a response to tom then to you vanitasvitae i think
muppeth
though candy crash should be made illegal
vanitasvitae
I'm with you on that point ;)
tom
Is there any reason the Prosody website recommends installing Prosody from Ports instead of Packages for OpenBSD?
MattJ
Probably because someone familiar with OpenBSD told us to put that there
tom
I'll take that advice then
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
peahas joined
peahas left
vanitasvitaehas left
vanitasvitaehas joined
xsteadfastxhas left
xsteadfastxhas joined
mimi89999has joined
tom
Is there any reason to put the muc on a seperate subdomain?
tom
or can you put the muc on the same domain as the main server, for example xmpp.domain.tld instead of xmpp.domain.tld and muc.domain.tld
tom
or conference.domain.tld
Ge0rG
tom: some clients will expect that, or confuse things when MUCs are not separate
Ge0rG
tom: btw you shouldn't have "xmpp" or "jabber" in your xmpp domain, use SRV records for your main domain instead
tom
sorry?
tom
thanks
Ge0rG
tom: when a client receives a carbon copy of a MUC-PM message it needs to check whether it's a MUC or not, and a set of clients will revert to checking that on the domain
Ge0rG
I'm sure now that I've said "carbon copy of a MUC-PM message" you understand the problem.
tom
so it's better to put in on it's own subdomain for buggy clients?
Ge0rG
it's better to put them on their own domain because of an oversight in the protocol.
solhas left
solhas joined
lag
Ge0rG: really? This is how I've been using, xmpp.example.tld with A record and an SRV record to xmpp.example.tld. What kind of problems can arise?
bowlofeggshas joined
Ge0rG
lag: it's not a problem, it's just a remnant of the old times when you didn't have SRV records to allow using your normal email address as a JID as well
tom
I wish it was possible to use nextcloud FIDs be the same as emails too
tom
(federated id)
Ge0rG
you can have that with xmpp for 20 years now.
tom
nextcloud is fairly new
Ge0rG
yes, and they went to reinveng messaging.
Ge0rG
because there isn't enough messaging already with xmpp and matrix.
tom
they did?
Ge0rG
as far as I understood, yes
Ge0rG
and then they realized people want federation, and were like: ugh what? how? what now?
tom
Double check that, Nextcloud is more of a file/calender collaboration suite
Ge0rG
IIRC it's called "nextcloud talk"
tom
They have a video chat, but I think that's only for people who you need to talk to but like only have skype or something
tom
I remember there being a plugin somewhere for xmpp integration, but really nextcloud is more of a file and calender sync service
Ge0rG
I can only keep up with so many messaging silos.
Ge0rG
ask me about XMPP.
bowlofeggshas left
tom
ok
bowlofeggshas joined
tom
your have any experience with mod_onions and mod_darknet ?
Ge0rG
no. I think that if you are into zero-metadata comms, you should use a protocol designed for that, like briar
tom
no, it's more about stopping illegal dragnet mass survailance