XMPP Service Operators - 2019-03-29

  1. tom

    Is there any way to increase file transfer reliability?

  2. tom

    file transfers with my friend keep failing

  3. mightyBroccoli

    Could you be more specific? Error code or the failure message displayed from the client?

  4. Licaon_Kter

    tom: server? Server software? Client?

  5. tom

    Gajim 0.16.9 sending to Gajim 0.16.6 server is.... hold on

  6. tom

    whatever 404.city is on and....

  7. Licaon_Kter

    tom: oh....that Gajim is how many years old?

  8. Licaon_Kter

    Things have changed...

  9. tom


  10. tom

    Licaon_Kter, oh?

  11. tom

    I don't think there's a release of Gajim past 0.16.x that still supports gtk2

  12. Licaon_Kter

    Yeah, eg that upload namespace thing

  13. Licaon_Kter

    tom: eh....

  14. tom

    If you can tell me what's wrong I could probably figure out how to patch Gajim 0.16 myself

  15. tom

    My friend is also stuck on Gajim 0.16.x because of the forced gtk+3 and he's a programmer as well.

  16. tom

    Licaon_Kter, what's up?

  17. Licaon_Kter

    tom: error logs?

  18. tom

    uhm.. let me check

  19. tom


  20. tom

    Does Gajim have error logs somewhere? or are you talking about server logs

  21. tom

    are you still with me Licaon_Kter ?

  22. Licaon_Kter

    tom: I dunno the answer...hence....

  23. tom


  24. tom

    I'll keep looking into it, so far it just show a X icon next to the failed trasfers. Not very descriptive

  25. Link Mauve

    tom, you should update, the 0.16 branch is abandonned, and so is gtk2.

  26. Link Mauve

    And there are many features which have been added in 1.0 and later, such as more failure-proof file transfer.

  27. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  28. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  29. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depend on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  30. tom

    gtk2 isn't abandoned, it still receives patches, if if that were to change I will patch it should a need arise

  31. tom

    and gtk3 is not a generic toolkit, it's the gnome graphical toolkit

  32. tom

    it's also optimized for tablets, not computers.

  33. tom

    and it isn't stable

  34. tom

    I'd much rather fork Gajim 0.16 if nobody else is going to

  35. tom

    backport useful features

  36. tom

    gtk3 is so unusable to me that the effort required to backport and maintain 0.16.x is worth the effort for me

  37. tom

    even spending money to pay for development help

  38. Link Mauve

    tom, gtk3 will not see any newer minor version, only patch releases, that is the Debian definition of “stable”.

  39. Link Mauve

    It also is definitely not “optimised” more for tablets than for anything else.

  40. Link Mauve

    And yet also, not targetting GNOME in the slightest, there are just people involved in both projects.

  41. tom

    I've used the 1.x release

  42. tom

    of gajim

  43. tom

    and it's probably the worst release i've ever used ui wise

  44. tom

    now if there is another jabber client out there that you'd recommend that doesn't force gtk+3 and doesn't fall for whatever the latest UI fads are and that isn't based on nodejs I would like to know

  45. Link Mauve

    Please open issues for things which could be improved.

  46. Link Mauve

    tom, hmm, maybe look for the Qt ones?

  47. Link Mauve

    Swift for instance, or Kaidan, or JabberCat.

  48. tom

    Link Mauve, I don't think Gajim wants to improve. I took some of my concerns to their muc and they just insulted me

  49. Link Mauve

    Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS.

  50. Link Mauve

    Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS at runtime.

  51. tom

    I also don't see a valid reason for switching off of gtk2

  52. Link Mauve

    tom, I’m pretty sure it does.

  53. Link Mauve

    tom, oh, there is a very valid one: it isn’t supported by anyone.

  54. tom

    Well I will take your word for and and open a ticket

  55. tom

    Link Mauve, What do you mean supported?

  56. Link Mauve

    If your suggestion is just “switch from gtk3 to gtk2”, of course nobody will do that.

  57. Link Mauve

    But if you have valid UI or UX concerns, that’s relevant.

  58. Link Mauve

    tom, no one is pouring time to fix or improve gtk2 anymore.

  59. tom

    what is there to fix?

  60. Link Mauve


  61. Link Mauve

    Have a look at all of the reasons for gtk3’s existence. :)

  62. Link Mauve

    The main one for me was Wayland support.

  63. Link Mauve

    gtk3’s is damn good.

  64. Link Mauve

    gtk2’s, well, inexistant.

  65. tom

    the last patch to gtk2 was 14 days ago

  66. tom

    commit c505d3f what do you mean not supported?

  67. tom

    also, what reasons for gtk3's existance?

  68. tom

    wayland isn't even stable yet, and doesn't work on the BSDs

  69. Link Mauve

    Look at the release notes if you aren’t aware of it.

  70. tom

    and X11 forwarding over SSH doesn't work on wayland

  71. Link Mauve

    tom, erm, can you please stop with the false accusations please? Wayland has been stable since 2012 and has worked on any system with UNIX sockets and shared memory.

  72. Link Mauve

    tom, it sure does, as long as your compositor provides an Xwayland integration (and all do, to my knowledge).

  73. Licaon_Kter

    This escalated fast....

  74. tom

    really? I didn't know

  75. tom

    Does wayland work on OpeBSD?

  76. Link Mauve

    tom, sure.

  77. Link Mauve

    I mean, it certainly has unix sockets, and shared memory support, as it exposes a POSIX API.

  78. tom

    So, as a person who has used X for a decade and has not had a problem with it, why would I want to use Wayland instead? and Why do most operating systems not ship with Wayland, but X instead?

  79. Link Mauve

    Some compositors may have additional requirements, such as OpenGL support for rendering, or udev for input, but at least when I had to run Weston on FreeBSD for a client that was working.

  80. Link Mauve

    tom, personally, it was because I was tired of tearing happening all the time, and because of the complete isolation between processes, as well as the very simple and easy to understand and to extend protocol.

  81. tom

    I'm certainly not going to go ahead and install Wayland just to run a graphical toolkit that has not yet even justified it's existance over gtk2 that I don't even like

  82. tom

    I've never experience tearing. Are you sure that wasn't just a graphics driver causing tearing?

  83. Link Mauve

    For instance I wanted to add quad-buffering support to a 3DS emulator, because that sounded like fun to be able to run its stereoscopic capabilities on a big 3DTV or VR device, and that was pretty much impossible on X11.

  84. Link Mauve

    tom, it’s a combinaison of many things, Xorg being single-buffered being one.

  85. tom

    I am personally running 2 monitors, one of them being a 144Hz and 1080p while the other being 1900x800 at 60hz.

  86. tom

    I don't experience any tearing besides what on the 60hz one if I play a videogame on it without vsync, but that's the monitor's fault. it's a cheapo unit and does that across any os

  87. Link Mauve

    I’m pretty sure it isn’t due to the monitor, try it with Wayland for instance.

  88. Link Mauve

    I also had a lot of misconceptions before getting deep into the graphics stack. ^^

  89. tom

    I can see process screen isolation being a useful feature if it doesn't break things like window managers, oneko, and such

  90. tom

    but other than that, I don't really see how that only justifies a huge compatibility breaking change like that

  91. Link Mauve

    Of course it prevents your window manager from running, and oneko would have to be a priviledged client or part of the compositor.

  92. tom

    that doens't sound very good

  93. Link Mauve

    But it’s becoming very simple to build a full compositor by writing only code that you would write for window management before, with libraries like wlroots.

  94. Link Mauve

    So it’s only a matter that people were targetting Xlib only, and now have to target either Xlib or wlroots or both.

  95. tom

    so other than wayland compatibility, (which I don't see has justified or being worth the hassle) why else would someone want to switch to gtk3?

  96. Link Mauve

    Depending on whether they want full control over the display mechanisms, or if they want to delegate that to Xorg.

  97. Link Mauve

    In the latter case, they can’t support Wayland.

  98. Link Mauve

    tom, have you just made the effort of opening the release notes or design plan of GTK+ 3.0?

  99. Link Mauve

    If not, then there is no point to this discussion.

  100. tom


  101. tom

    qrong link

  102. tom

    I can only find the release notes for gnome3

  103. tom

    would you provide a link?

  104. Link Mauve

    tom, second result on ddg: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2011-February/msg00022.html

  105. tom

    basing the theming api on CSS is a horrible idea

  106. Ge0rG

    let's build on the shoulders of giants?

  107. Link Mauve

    Note that that’s only the 3.0 release, not everything was done by then so the following releases added a lot of missing pieces, while always keeping it ABI compatible.

  108. tom

    dbus integration is also a horrible idea. dbus sucks

  109. Link Mauve

    tom, I don’t see what’s wrong with it, most designers these days are used to CSS for apparence.

  110. tom

    just because something is popular doesn't make it good

  111. tom

    also, what was wrong with the privious theming api?

  112. tom


  113. Link Mauve

    Most likely, that it wasn’t popular enough, so random passerbys had to learn an entirely new language to theme their application or DE.

  114. Link Mauve

    But that’s a thing better asked to GTK+ people from 2008.

  115. Link Mauve

    I can only speculate on their intentions.

  116. tom

    there were and are plenty of great gtk2 themes already out there

  117. Link Mauve

    Although this change seems to have panned well.

  118. tom

    also, learning how to use your tools is just a fact of life

  119. tom

    regarding the last relase note, added an application chooser, I have a perfectly fine gtk2 based application chooser that didn't require a whole major release number to implement

  120. Link Mauve

    tom, so what good does it give to have to learn two different languages, to make web applications and GTK+ applications, while it could be a single one?

  121. tom


  122. tom

    because there is a difference between web applications and programs

  123. tom

    that line should not be blurred

  124. Link Mauve

    Eww, Flash.

  125. Link Mauve

    That’s a thing I haven’t used in a decade.

  126. Link Mauve

    tom, using CSS for theming is hardly “blurring” anything.

  127. Link Mauve

    And why should it not, btw?

  128. Link Mauve

    Some other toolkits like Qt went much further with the integration of web technologies, integrating a JavaScript engine, CSS, QtQuick, and even Chromium for their web needs.

  129. tom

    when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine

  130. tom

    and Javascript is a terrible terrible language. It always was even from the beginning

  131. tom

    You can polish poop but at the end up the day it's still a peice of shit

  132. tom

    the compatibility breaking change of using css for theming does not justify itself in a cost to gain ratio. the gtk2 theming api is perfectly expressive enough for what it does and simple enough too

  133. tom

    I've made and modified my own gtk2 themes, i'm not talking out of my ass here

  134. tom

    >tom‎: when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine sorry, something happened here. I meant to say: when you attempt to blue the line of web browser and programs, you end of turning a markup renderer into a bloated, virtual machine

  135. tom


  136. tom

    does that answer your question?

  137. tom

    just to give you an example of the bloat of the fallacies that have brought us "web 2.0" firefox 52 (even before you had to compile rust to compile firefox) took and still takes longer than GCC to compile

  138. tom

    GCC used to be the most bloated and longest to compile thing of the entire operating system

  139. tom

    >* More flexible geometry management, with support for height-for-width, for both widgets and cell renderers. Why did a compatibility breaking change be needed to implement this?

  140. tom

    * Modern input device handling. The input device handling in GDK has long been a sadly neglected area. This has changed; with 3.0, GTK+ steps into the modern world of XI2 with full support for multiple pointers, keyboards and other gizmos. Sounds like a GDK problem not a GTK problem. Just patch gdk

  141. Link Mauve

    Sorry I was doing something else.

  142. tom

    no problem

  143. Link Mauve

    But a compatibility break eleven years ago, with a lot of other things required to change, has long since given benefits.

  144. Link Mauve

    The gtk2 theming API is just an artifact from the past nowadays.

  145. tom


  146. Link Mauve

    tom, but I wasn’t arguing for bloating the web, it already does that on its own perfectly well, I was talking about using the useful parts of it, familiar to many, to make your own software more familiar.

  147. Link Mauve

    tom, see, I’m a random who only knows HTML and some CSS, I want to change some visual things in my IM client.

  148. Link Mauve

    Now, with gtk3 I can just apply my preexisting knowledge.

  149. tom

    yes, and I'm saying maybe so (i doubt it though) but that doesn't justify breaking everything to change it

  150. Link Mauve

    With gtk2, I’d simply be demoralised away by having to learn yet another language.

  151. tom

    well that's your own fault

  152. Link Mauve

    tom, the break happened for many other reasons, your gtk2 themes wouldn’t have been compatible with gtk3 even if they kept the language.

  153. Link Mauve

    tom, sure, you can blame the user.

  154. Link Mauve

    You can also accept criticism and aim for a more user-friendly experience.

  155. tom

    being demoralized from having to learn new stuff is

  156. Link Mauve

    I’ve met a lot of people identifying as web developers, who outright reject the idea to learn anything else.

  157. Link Mauve

    And they can live perfectly well.

  158. Link Mauve

    Same for Java developers, same for C developers, same for Python developers.

  159. tom

    that's why they are web developers

  160. tom

    and you can stay in in a bubble

  161. Link Mauve

    Yes, that’s in their self-description. What does it bring to cut yourself from these people in order to undo an eleven years old language change?

  162. Link Mauve

    With the hingsight, it’s only brought nice things.

  163. tom

    what? I don't understand your metaphors

  164. Link Mauve

    tom, there is no metaphor here.

  165. tom

    no one is self mutilating

  166. tom

    and years of constant breakage and instability is not a nice thing

  167. tom

    also completely abandoning decades of UI research for hamburger buttons is not a nice thing

  168. pep.

    Heh, still arguing about using gtk2? :p

  169. Ge0rG

    Mhm... Hamburgers!

  170. tom

    a button for buttons

  171. Link Mauve

    tom, “cut yourself out” means making a clear separation between you and a given set of people in English.

  172. Link Mauve

    tom, that’s an application developer decision, whether they put menus or other things.

  173. Link Mauve

    Nothing the toolkit can do for you.

  174. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, oh, good idea.

  175. Link Mauve

    I should have breakfast, and start packing, I leave in less than one hour.

  176. Link Mauve

    And get out of bed too.

  177. tom

    because if you want to enter a new field, you should learn the tools of the trade. NOt attempt to adapt tools of a different trade before learning the traditional way of doing things.

  178. tom

    at least learn from the more experienced before attempting to forge your own way

  179. tom

    I don't go get a job as a car mechanic and refuse to learn a wrench and attempt to use a keyboard to change my oil

  180. Link Mauve

    tom, but as a random user, do you want to enter a new field, or simply customise your chat client?

  181. Link Mauve

    Using a chat client should never have the same requirements as getting a job as a car mechanic.

  182. tom

    I want a XMPP client for my computers that doesn't have a phone client. Also, If I'm going to be upgrading I want the upgrade to at least be equivalent or slightly better than what I had before

  183. tom

    *phone interface

  184. Link Mauve

    Same for me, except I don’t care where the inspiration comes for the interface.

  185. tom

    I want a computer interface on my computer. not a tablet interface on my computer

  186. Link Mauve

    I mean, I use a client inspired by terminal IRC clients, of course I don’t. :D

  187. tom

    I also refuse to lose customizability I had before

  188. tom

    for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels

  189. tom

    Gajim's 0.16.9 interface is probably the best IM interface I've ever used. Like ever

  190. tom

    then 1.x just completely throws it all out the window

  191. tom


  192. tom

    because windows are "old"

  193. tom

    not because what they are using now is better, but because popups and windows are "old"

  194. tom

    just because something is new doesn't make it better. and just because something is old doesn't make it worse

  195. Ge0rG

    focus-stealing popups always have been bad

  196. tom

    If nobody else is going to fix file transfer in Gajim 0.16.x I'll do it myself

  197. tom

    I would however appreciate some help in figuring out why exactly the issues are occuring in the fist place

  198. Link Mauve

    “10:54:10 tom> for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels”, great, all of those are customisable using *wait for it* CSS!

  199. Link Mauve

    tom, you can read the history between your latest commit and master.

  200. Link Mauve

    But be aware that it’s very long.

  201. Link Mauve

    And I wouldn’t advise doing that.

  202. tom

    Why should I when gtk2 works absolutely fine?

  203. tom

    also the file picker in gtk2

  204. tom

    Nothing, not even the qt one comes close to it

  205. tom

    Can you show me a gtk3 theme that looks like gtk2?

  206. Link Mauve


  207. tom

    hmm. ok. I could use that as a middle ground in the meantime to fix the glaring ui design failures, but still, as with all my previous posts, the change to gtk3 is not justified in a cost to gain ratio

  208. Link Mauve

    With most software having moved, maintaining them all in an old version will only accumulate work.

  209. Link Mauve

    So, good luck in your impossible quest I guess.

  210. Link Mauve

    At some point maybe you’ll realise the cost to gain ratio is really not to your benefit.

  211. Link Mauve

    In the meantime, I’m going on weekend, see y’all next week! \o_

  212. tom

    Link Mauve, fuck you

  213. pep.


  214. tom

    I'm sick and tired of your passive agressiveness

  215. pep.

    I totally agree with Link Mauve (/me throws oil on the fire)

  216. tom


  217. pep.

    Maybe you should start a gtk2 support group for people traumatized with gtk3

  218. tom

    maybe you should stop being ass asshole

  219. pep.

    If you manage to gather enough people to maintain gtk2 it might become worth your time

  220. tom

    gtk2 is maintained, what are you talking about?

  221. tom

    the last patch was only 14 days ago

  222. tom

    are you actually asking or just trying to piss me off

  223. tom

    What really needs to happen is an anti-redhat group

  224. tom

    Every single thing to come out of redhat minus qemu patches and md has been a downgrade in the oss ecosystem

  225. tom


  226. tom


  227. tom


  228. tom


  229. tom


  230. tom


  231. muppeth


  232. muppeth


  233. tom

    that too

  234. muppeth

    hahahaha because manually configuring every single server is so much better

  235. tom

    Redhat's a special fucking snowflake and can't using a staging tarball like every other unix os

  236. muppeth is evil gnome user that actually likes the new changes so i stay away from this one

  237. tom

    noting wrong with gnome2

  238. tom

    I actually used to use it

  239. muppeth

    and i'm comming form 10+ yeasrs of using only tiling managers

  240. muppeth

    tom i mean gnome3

  241. tom


  242. tom

    is there anyone here that agrees with me?

  243. muppeth

    i moved to gnome because they droppped what they were doing and decided to do something new (aka gtk/gnome3)

  244. tom

    anyone at all?

  245. tom

    seriously, what the hell

  246. tom

    what the hell happened to the industry in the last 7 yeays]

  247. muppeth

    tom, i guess it moved on

  248. muppeth

    I dont see what your problem here is tbh

  249. tom


  250. muppeth

    because as everything things move on

  251. tom

    Why is bloat and spyware the norm now?

  252. muppeth

    because people are borred of doing the same thing over and over again

  253. muppeth

    i dont know

  254. tom

    that's too general

  255. muppeth


  256. tom

    your just fucking with me

  257. muppeth

    where is the spyware in anything you mentioned?

  258. tom

    I'm trying to have a serious conversation about the stuff coming out of redhat and web not being good and all I get is assholes trying to derail

  259. tom

    like yourself

  260. tom

    I don't know why I spend the effort explaing this shit

  261. muppeth

    tom, imo all you do is shout some random shit, fueled by your frustration

  262. tom

    maybe I think your capable of reason

  263. tom

    obviously not the case

  264. muppeth

    itsa very simple. you dont like gtk3, as you mentioned gtk2 is still supported. whats your problem?

  265. muppeth

    someone higher said he likes web stuff. you dont. whats the issue. develop/use non-web stuff. period

  266. muppeth

    I dont like propretary software nor apple/google/windows etc. I dont use it

  267. muppeth

    how's that for a reason

  268. tom

    the problem is I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement, and I'm just met wet "just upgrade to gajim 1.x, oh you don't like gtk3? you must be some of of fuckhead then i'm right your wrong and stupid

  269. tom

    good luck with your impossible quest

  270. tom

    I don't need you to fucking tell me to switch to fuckin wayland

  271. muppeth

    tom, thats why i said i dont know what the initial question was.

  272. muppeth

    tom, noone tells you to do anything afais

  273. tom

    oh, were you not here for that conversation?

  274. tom

    I'm sorry then, that wasn't for you

  275. pep.

    tom: the specific issue with gajim is that the older versions don't support a ton of feature that are rather necessary nowadays. You might not like gtk3, but then you're cutting yourself from these other features and lose your rights to complain about them not existing (just like using pidgin nowadays is shooting yourself in the foot). You could make a gtk2 version of the newest branch of gajim maybe, or port these missing features in the older branch

  276. tom

    > a ton of feature WHAT FEAUTURES?

  277. Holger

    > I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html

  278. Holger

    tom: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim-plugins/wikis/httpuploadplugin

  279. tom

    is that it?

  280. Holger

    That's my answer to your question about which spec offers more reliable file transfer, yes.

  281. tom

    so there's no way to fix peer to peer transfer on XMPP, it's just been replaced with http uploads?

  282. Holger

    I *think* that plugin should even work with 0.16 so maybe there's actually nothing to do besides installing it?

  283. Holger

    tom: Well p2p is hard(er) to make reliable.

  284. tom

    can it be?

  285. tom

    let me rephrase

  286. Holger

    Most clients basically replace it with upload yes. Not just because reliability but also to make it work with offline peers, multi-device setups, and group chat.

  287. tom

    if implementing perfectly by the spec, can p2p transfer be made to be reliable?

  288. Holger

    I agree it's not exactly elegant but the fact that it just works is kinda nice.

  289. tom


  290. Holger

    tom: The problem is that there's multiple specs and incompatible revisions of those in the wild. Plus the limitations I mentioned above.

  291. Holger

    tom: Apart from that I think it can be made reliable, yes.

  292. tom

    hmm.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html says it's still only draft

  293. Holger

    Yeah if you take the XEP status seriously you can basically forget about XMPP.

  294. Holger

    For p2p you'd do XEP-0234 these days which is 'Deferred'.

  295. tom

    hmm. Looks like i'm going to have to switch XMPP providers to get that to work

  296. tom

    not a huge deal, I've been looking to host my own for a while now

  297. Ge0rG

    Haha, I'm not the only one grumpy about the Gnome CADT model and all the new shit that's working differently from the old shit that I know to operate.

  298. Ge0rG

    BTW, hosting your own XMPP server is the first thing to be actually on-topic in this room

  299. Holger

    I don't quite get why everyone is mourning for the Gnome2 UI. It's just Windows 95 and there's still plenty (most?) DEs doing just that.

  300. Ge0rG

    I think the problem is Gnome 3 with its opaque buttons where you have no way to find out what they do short of clicking and looking

  301. Ge0rG patched away the full-screen shit with some LD_PRELOAD black magic, but it's still fugly

  302. Holger

    Hmmm. Dunno I chose Gnome 3 as the first DE for my little son and he seems to cope just fine.

  303. Holger

    Not sure what buttons you mean exactly. There aren't many in the first place :-)

  304. Holger

    (And on-topic is overrated.)

  305. Holger

    Whatever, I don't care at all what others use. I'm just happy the GNOME people tried something else because I think there's still plenty old-school DEs if you prefer those.

  306. Ge0rG is running fluxbox which is based on blackbox which is ancient.

  307. Holger

    Ah I used that myself one or two decades ago :-)

  308. muppeth

    Holger, agree. I like gnome because its different. I used pretty much everything out there from fluxbox, xfce, kde, through awesomeWM and i3. I just deployed Gnome3 desktops at work and i was amazed by the reaction from normal non-tech folk that find it super comfortable to use. some even say its better then MacOS and i start recieving windows laptops form them (and now some of their friends that saw it) asking if I would "load" that linux thing on their personal computers.

  309. muppeth

    so i guess gnome is doing something right. its not for everyone but so isnt Mate or tilling window manager

  310. tom

    thank you for your help Holger

  311. tom

    muppeth, I think that's the problem. GNOME3 and gtk3 alienate 'tech folk' in favor of computer illiterates when their previous userbase is power users

  312. muppeth

    tom, totally disagree. I consider mysefl power user. I used tilling window manager exclusively for over 10 years. I moved to gnome now, being still power user

  313. muppeth

    i do undertsand people want to use tilling managers still

  314. tom


  315. Ge0rG

    everything is one huge tile in gnome3! :D

  316. muppeth

    i dont uderstand how using a DE make me less of a power user?! I use terminal for work. tbh most of the time i dont even need XServer to do my work

  317. tom

    I find myself doing to opposite, slowly moving more and more into tiling managers because i'm being alienated by gnome

  318. tom

    not because I like tiling

  319. tom

    because I can't find another option

  320. tom

    I"ve moved from gnome2 to matte, then they went gtk3

  321. tom

    then to xfce

  322. tom

    then they went gtk3

  323. muppeth

    maybe because gtk3 is better

  324. tom

    then to i3wm because I'm not sure whereless to go

  325. Holger

    tom: I understand how the GNOME transition was painful and alienated parts of the existing user base, but I totally appreciate *some* DE project targetting "computer illiterates" so I have something good to offer them.

  326. tom

    there was already a project that targeted computer illiterates, and I don't see why gnome had to alienate it's own users to switch target userbases

  327. Holger

    But yes if it's about avoiding GTK+ 3 I see your problem. Qt not an option?

  328. tom


  329. pep.

    People are almost never happy with change anyway, what's good for one is going to annoy the other. I'm fine if I'm not GNOME's target user anymore (or never was), I just don't use it

  330. muppeth

    but what is your problem really. gnome poeple wanted to do something and they did. according to your logic, software cannot change because there is this tom guy and he wont like it.

  331. Holger

    tom: Well I think it's hard to build a single piece of software that makes both power users and illiterates happy.

  332. tom

    qt is not as bad as gtk3, but it's still a downgrade. It also has no support for C

  333. tom

    also the file picker

  334. muppeth

    Holger, why? gnome3 or kde does just that. it makes non-tech and tech people happy.

  335. tom

    doesn't worker nearly as well as the one in gtk2 does

  336. Ge0rG

    Whoever is using C as a UI language, deserves all the resulting pain

  337. tom

    muppeth, no, kde is hard to justify in that case.

  338. muppeth

    just some poeple dont like it for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure there is a DE that fits them too and if it doesmt, well time to write your own tom

  339. tom

    KDE pissed people off soo bad and much that they went and created the Trinity Desktop Envrioment

  340. tom

    in the kde3 -> kde4 transition

  341. muppeth

    tom which people?! all 5 of them?>

  342. Ge0rG

    how many greybeard linux nerds do you need to write a Desktop Environment?

  343. tom

    muppeth, cut the smartass unhelpful remarks

  344. tom

    I'm trying to have a conversation

  345. muppeth

    tom, my remarks are no different then your whining. you blame decissions made by gnome team from your perspective.

  346. muppeth

    whats the point of this 'conversation'?

  347. muppeth

    whine that everyone

  348. tom

    >‎[05:10:18 AM] ‎muppeth‎: tom which people?! all 5 of them?> >‎[05:06:01 AM] ‎muppeth‎: maybe because gtk3 is better

  349. muppeth

    whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?

  350. tom

    >[05:11:35 AM] ‎muppeth‎: whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?

  351. muppeth

    tom, as you pointed out everyone moves to gtk3. it means it must be good right?

  352. tom

    your attempting to derail to conversation

  353. Ge0rG

    tom: you are derailing the conversation for hours now.

  354. Ge0rG

    This is the XMPP Operators Room. It is about XMPP Operators.

  355. Holger

    muppeth: In the context of window managers I'd call "power users" those who want a high amount of configurability/flexibility/extensibility and/or powerful features that aren't necessarily intuitive (i.e. tiling WMs or so).

  356. tom

    that doesn't justify muppeth's passive aggressive snipes

  357. Holger

    muppeth: In general I think offering more powerful UI often conflicts with intuitiveness because it requires a steeper learning curve.

  358. Ge0rG

    tom: you lost the remains of your credibility when you told Link Mauve to f*** themselves.

  359. tom

    muppeth, your rude

  360. muppeth

    Holger, yes. exactly. check dconf (very unintuitive, anti-userfirendly) tool to change every single bit of your gnome experience 😛 very power user frioendly 🙂

  361. Holger

    muppeth: Hence I think it's often hard to make both target audiences happy in one go.

  362. muppeth

    tom, I'm rude? I got active in here because i saw your insults towards others here.

  363. Holger

    muppeth: Nah dconf doesn't allow me to turn GNOME 3 into i3.

  364. muppeth

    Holger, i think its a good balance. non-power users have very little options to get overwhelmed or screw up with, while other can change every single piece. not to mention you can hook it all up to ansible and manage/configure every aspect on every desktop you administer.

  365. muppeth

    Holger, but also i3 doesnt allow you to become gnome. there are restrictions, although the tiling functionalities in gnome are getting interesting lately, so soon you will actually be able tyo make gnome into i3 while not the other way around 😛

  366. muppeth

    anyway as i said there are no bad DE/WM just different expectations of poeple, and its nice that you acctually have choice.

  367. Ge0rG

    Can we please get Poettering into here to discuss the merits of gnome3?

  368. tom

    If you ask me all this shit is just the Extend in Embrace Extend Exterminate

  369. tom

    and about non-power users have very little options

  370. tom

    non-power users have Windows and Mac OSX

  371. tom

    and they have https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US

  372. tom

    Why is the so much of a concern to write software for computer illiterates anyways?

  373. Ge0rG

    tom: because most users are computer illiterates

  374. tom

    Why are a lot of developers writing software for computer illiterates instead of themselves out of being paid to do it?

  375. Ge0rG

    tom: the right question would be: why are so many developers writing software for computer illiterates, despite lacking the required skills?

  376. tom

    no, I'm asking why they would want to be going through all the effort of writing software for someone else with different interests and abilities while not even being paid to do it

  377. Licaon_Kter

    tom: because devs won't have work to do....?

  378. tom

    if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?

  379. Holger

    > if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests? My impression is that's still the case for most spare-time devs.

  380. Ge0rG

    I'm a spare-time dev writing software for other people.

  381. Holger

    You're different!

  382. Holger

    Another impression is that there fraction of few software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.

  383. Ge0rG


  384. Holger

    Another impression is that there fraction of free software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.

  385. Holger

    So it's more driven by profitability these days.

  386. tom


  387. Ge0rG

    Not all of my software is profitable.

  388. Holger

    You're different!

  389. tom

    Ge0rG is?

  390. tom


  391. Ge0rG

    tom: I am why what?

  392. tom

    > ‎Holger‎: You're different!

  393. Ge0rG

    tom: apparently because I'm writing software for normal people, and because not all of my software is profitable

  394. tom

    but that's what Holger was saying your different from yes?

  395. tom

    Holger, what you care to clarify?

  396. Holger

    Ge0rG is working on an XMPP client that targets normal end-users in his spare time. And my impression is that this is a somewhat uncommon case.

  397. Holger

    Or maybe somewhat specific to the XMPP/chat field. Where you have an interested to chat with others, possibly with illiterates. Which requires software that's usable by them.

  398. Ge0rG

    chat with illiterates! \o/

  399. Holger


  400. tom

    by normal you mean computer illiterate right?

  401. Holger


  402. tom


  403. tom

    If I might make a reccomendation

  404. tom

    if you could make a stripped down xmpp client that only works in google chrome

  405. tom

    as a 'web app'

  406. Ge0rG

    it's called converse.js :P

  407. muppeth

    tom, I dont understand your argument. I'm not computer illiterate and i do like for example gnome. I have a feeling for you software for non-illetirates must look like its still 90s or something.

  408. tom

    most computer illiterates don't know how to use software and think that installing programs gives them viruses

  409. tom

    they do everything from a google chrome. just look at email

  410. muppeth

    tom, not true. I run a platform that provides services to people and you would be suprised how many 'illiterate' people actually use it while you would think its only for the elitist power users.

  411. muppeth

    world isnt 0 or 1

  412. muppeth

    i know few 'illiterate' people what use old xfce. not because they are power users that dont like change, but because they are used to their old wondows95 UI

  413. tom

    if your looking for adoption, that might be the way to go

  414. muppeth

    your preference for software does not make you better then others.

  415. muppeth

    or software better then the other

  416. vanitasvitae

    In my opinion computer illiterates should simply stay away from computers.

  417. tom

    I fully agree with vanitasvitae on this one, but unfortunately that's not going to happen

  418. vanitasvitae

    You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.

  419. tom

    well maybe, if you can isolate computer illiterates to smartphones that might work

  420. vanitasvitae


  421. vanitasvitae

    Smartphones are computers as well

  422. vanitasvitae

    Even lightswitches are, depending on the scientific model you use.

  423. Ge0rG

    > You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works. Nobody does that. Please turn off your computers immediately and become a potato farmer.

  424. Licaon_Kter

    vanitasvitae: turing complete lightswitches?

  425. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: potatos can eletricity

  426. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: potatos can electricity

  427. tom

    about the chrome-only webapp thing, that's actually a fairly popular thing. Thats the enture premis of ChromeOS

  428. tom

    You don't have a computer, you just have a netbook that only runs a web browser

  429. Ge0rG

    tom: https://inverse.chat

  430. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG: lets collapse society!

  431. tom

    yeah, that doesn't even do anything but render a solid blue page in my browser ,even with javascript and cookies enabled

  432. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: it was your premise. I'm perfectly fine using tech I don't understand

  433. muppeth

    vanitasvitae, still it doesnt mean my workspace cannot look nice and needs to look like shit crafted in mid 90s. i still dont see how is gnome / gtk3 made for illiterates and hated universally by everyone that knows a bit of how stuff works.

  434. vanitasvitae

    "Mom, you're not a full stack developer? No Candy Crush for you!" Simple as that!

  435. muppeth


  436. vanitasvitae

    I hope by now its obvious that my statement was not meant serious :D

  437. muppeth

    its more of a response to tom then to you vanitasvitae i think

  438. muppeth

    though candy crash should be made illegal

  439. vanitasvitae

    I'm with you on that point ;)

  440. tom

    Is there any reason the Prosody website recommends installing Prosody from Ports instead of Packages for OpenBSD?

  441. MattJ

    Probably because someone familiar with OpenBSD told us to put that there

  442. tom

    I'll take that advice then

  443. tom

    Is there any reason to put the muc on a seperate subdomain?

  444. tom

    or can you put the muc on the same domain as the main server, for example xmpp.domain.tld instead of xmpp.domain.tld and muc.domain.tld

  445. tom

    or conference.domain.tld

  446. Ge0rG

    tom: some clients will expect that, or confuse things when MUCs are not separate

  447. Ge0rG

    tom: btw you shouldn't have "xmpp" or "jabber" in your xmpp domain, use SRV records for your main domain instead

  448. tom


  449. tom


  450. Ge0rG

    tom: when a client receives a carbon copy of a MUC-PM message it needs to check whether it's a MUC or not, and a set of clients will revert to checking that on the domain

  451. Ge0rG

    I'm sure now that I've said "carbon copy of a MUC-PM message" you understand the problem.

  452. tom

    so it's better to put in on it's own subdomain for buggy clients?

  453. Ge0rG

    it's better to put them on their own domain because of an oversight in the protocol.

  454. lag

    Ge0rG: really? This is how I've been using, xmpp.example.tld with A record and an SRV record to xmpp.example.tld. What kind of problems can arise?

  455. Ge0rG

    lag: it's not a problem, it's just a remnant of the old times when you didn't have SRV records to allow using your normal email address as a JID as well

  456. tom

    I wish it was possible to use nextcloud FIDs be the same as emails too

  457. tom

    (federated id)

  458. Ge0rG

    you can have that with xmpp for 20 years now.

  459. tom

    nextcloud is fairly new

  460. Ge0rG

    yes, and they went to reinveng messaging.

  461. Ge0rG

    because there isn't enough messaging already with xmpp and matrix.

  462. tom

    they did?

  463. Ge0rG

    as far as I understood, yes

  464. Ge0rG

    and then they realized people want federation, and were like: ugh what? how? what now?

  465. tom

    Double check that, Nextcloud is more of a file/calender collaboration suite

  466. Ge0rG

    IIRC it's called "nextcloud talk"

  467. tom

    They have a video chat, but I think that's only for people who you need to talk to but like only have skype or something

  468. tom

    I remember there being a plugin somewhere for xmpp integration, but really nextcloud is more of a file and calender sync service

  469. Ge0rG

    I can only keep up with so many messaging silos.

  470. Ge0rG

    ask me about XMPP.

  471. tom


  472. tom

    your have any experience with mod_onions and mod_darknet ?

  473. Ge0rG

    no. I think that if you are into zero-metadata comms, you should use a protocol designed for that, like briar

  474. tom

    no, it's more about stopping illegal dragnet mass survailance

  475. tom

    transparent darknet integration is nice

  476. Ge0rG

    Germany is forbidding the darknet now.

  477. tom


  478. tom

    I thought germany was a democracy?

  479. tom

    I wonder how they plan to enforce that

  480. Ge0rG

    I don't know yet.

  481. Licaon_Kter

    tom: swat teams as usual? As CCC

  482. tom

    seems super sketch, banning network anonymity

  483. Ge0rG


  484. tom

    oh, so it's not law just a proposal

  485. Ge0rG

    it was accepted yesterday

  486. Ge0rG

    or at least passed one of the parliamentary chambers.

  487. Ge0rG

    But the politicians are sufficiently clueless to let it through, especially with the right wing being rather strong

  488. pep.

    Ge0rG: I saw that not so long ago :(

  489. tom

    communist china bans tor, but there's still tens of thousands of users

  490. pep.

    I think it's time to make more tor nodes

  491. tom

    you beat me to it

  492. tom

    There's no better time to setup tor than when governments start trying to ban it

  493. 404.city

    tom The reason for transfer errors in large file sizes, no one thought a few years ago that large files would be sent via http upload

  494. tom

    thank you 404.city

  495. tom

    Link Mauve, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0

  496. tom

    maybe it's time I take another look into qt

  497. tom

    Does Psi support XMPP well?

  498. SouL

    tom: depends on your definition, it does in my opinion

  499. tom

    sure, I mean does it implement most of the important XEPs properly

  500. tom

    the comparison would be pidgin, which doesn't do that