XMPP Service Operators - 2019-03-29

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  167. tom

    Is there any way to increase file transfer reliability?

  168. tom

    file transfers with my friend keep failing

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  170. mightyBroccoli

    Could you be more specific? Error code or the failure message displayed from the client?

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  172. Licaon_Kter

    tom: server? Server software? Client?

  173. tom

    Gajim 0.16.9 sending to Gajim 0.16.6 server is.... hold on

  174. tom

    whatever 404.city is on and....

  175. Licaon_Kter

    tom: oh....that Gajim is how many years old?

  176. Licaon_Kter

    Things have changed...

  177. tom


  178. tom

    Licaon_Kter, oh?

  179. tom

    I don't think there's a release of Gajim past 0.16.x that still supports gtk2

  180. Licaon_Kter

    Yeah, eg that upload namespace thing

  181. Licaon_Kter

    tom: eh....

  182. tom

    If you can tell me what's wrong I could probably figure out how to patch Gajim 0.16 myself

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  185. tom

    My friend is also stuck on Gajim 0.16.x because of the forced gtk+3 and he's a programmer as well.

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  187. tom

    Licaon_Kter, what's up?

  188. Licaon_Kter

    tom: error logs?

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  191. tom

    uhm.. let me check

  192. tom


  193. tom

    Does Gajim have error logs somewhere? or are you talking about server logs

  194. tom

    are you still with me Licaon_Kter ?

  195. Licaon_Kter

    tom: I dunno the answer...hence....

  196. tom


  197. tom

    I'll keep looking into it, so far it just show a X icon next to the failed trasfers. Not very descriptive

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  200. Link Mauve

    tom, you should update, the 0.16 branch is abandonned, and so is gtk2.

  201. Link Mauve

    And there are many features which have been added in 1.0 and later, such as more failure-proof file transfer.

  202. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  203. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  204. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depend on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

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  209. tom

    gtk2 isn't abandoned, it still receives patches, if if that were to change I will patch it should a need arise

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  212. tom

    and gtk3 is not a generic toolkit, it's the gnome graphical toolkit

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  214. tom

    it's also optimized for tablets, not computers.

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  216. tom

    and it isn't stable

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  219. tom

    I'd much rather fork Gajim 0.16 if nobody else is going to

  220. tom

    backport useful features

  221. tom

    gtk3 is so unusable to me that the effort required to backport and maintain 0.16.x is worth the effort for me

  222. tom

    even spending money to pay for development help

  223. Link Mauve

    tom, gtk3 will not see any newer minor version, only patch releases, that is the Debian definition of “stable”.

  224. Link Mauve

    It also is definitely not “optimised” more for tablets than for anything else.

  225. Link Mauve

    And yet also, not targetting GNOME in the slightest, there are just people involved in both projects.

  226. tom

    I've used the 1.x release

  227. tom

    of gajim

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  229. tom

    and it's probably the worst release i've ever used ui wise

  230. tom

    now if there is another jabber client out there that you'd recommend that doesn't force gtk+3 and doesn't fall for whatever the latest UI fads are and that isn't based on nodejs I would like to know

  231. Link Mauve

    Please open issues for things which could be improved.

  232. Link Mauve

    tom, hmm, maybe look for the Qt ones?

  233. Link Mauve

    Swift for instance, or Kaidan, or JabberCat.

  234. tom

    Link Mauve, I don't think Gajim wants to improve. I took some of my concerns to their muc and they just insulted me

  235. Link Mauve

    Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS.

  236. Link Mauve

    Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS at runtime.

  237. tom

    I also don't see a valid reason for switching off of gtk2

  238. Link Mauve

    tom, I’m pretty sure it does.

  239. Link Mauve

    tom, oh, there is a very valid one: it isn’t supported by anyone.

  240. tom

    Well I will take your word for and and open a ticket

  241. tom

    Link Mauve, What do you mean supported?

  242. Link Mauve

    If your suggestion is just “switch from gtk3 to gtk2”, of course nobody will do that.

  243. Link Mauve

    But if you have valid UI or UX concerns, that’s relevant.

  244. Link Mauve

    tom, no one is pouring time to fix or improve gtk2 anymore.

  245. tom

    what is there to fix?

  246. Link Mauve


  247. Link Mauve

    Have a look at all of the reasons for gtk3’s existence. :)

  248. Link Mauve

    The main one for me was Wayland support.

  249. Link Mauve

    gtk3’s is damn good.

  250. Link Mauve

    gtk2’s, well, inexistant.

  251. tom

    the last patch to gtk2 was 14 days ago

  252. tom

    commit c505d3f what do you mean not supported?

  253. tom

    also, what reasons for gtk3's existance?

  254. tom

    wayland isn't even stable yet, and doesn't work on the BSDs

  255. Link Mauve

    Look at the release notes if you aren’t aware of it.

  256. tom

    and X11 forwarding over SSH doesn't work on wayland

  257. Link Mauve

    tom, erm, can you please stop with the false accusations please? Wayland has been stable since 2012 and has worked on any system with UNIX sockets and shared memory.

  258. Link Mauve

    tom, it sure does, as long as your compositor provides an Xwayland integration (and all do, to my knowledge).

  259. Licaon_Kter

    This escalated fast....

  260. tom

    really? I didn't know

  261. tom

    Does wayland work on OpeBSD?

  262. Link Mauve

    tom, sure.

  263. Link Mauve

    I mean, it certainly has unix sockets, and shared memory support, as it exposes a POSIX API.

  264. tom

    So, as a person who has used X for a decade and has not had a problem with it, why would I want to use Wayland instead? and Why do most operating systems not ship with Wayland, but X instead?

  265. Link Mauve

    Some compositors may have additional requirements, such as OpenGL support for rendering, or udev for input, but at least when I had to run Weston on FreeBSD for a client that was working.

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  269. Link Mauve

    tom, personally, it was because I was tired of tearing happening all the time, and because of the complete isolation between processes, as well as the very simple and easy to understand and to extend protocol.

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  271. tom

    I'm certainly not going to go ahead and install Wayland just to run a graphical toolkit that has not yet even justified it's existance over gtk2 that I don't even like

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  275. tom

    I've never experience tearing. Are you sure that wasn't just a graphics driver causing tearing?

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  278. Link Mauve

    For instance I wanted to add quad-buffering support to a 3DS emulator, because that sounded like fun to be able to run its stereoscopic capabilities on a big 3DTV or VR device, and that was pretty much impossible on X11.

  279. Link Mauve

    tom, it’s a combinaison of many things, Xorg being single-buffered being one.

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  284. tom

    I am personally running 2 monitors, one of them being a 144Hz and 1080p while the other being 1900x800 at 60hz.

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  291. tom

    I don't experience any tearing besides what on the 60hz one if I play a videogame on it without vsync, but that's the monitor's fault. it's a cheapo unit and does that across any os

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  294. Link Mauve

    I’m pretty sure it isn’t due to the monitor, try it with Wayland for instance.

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  298. Link Mauve

    I also had a lot of misconceptions before getting deep into the graphics stack. ^^

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  302. tom

    I can see process screen isolation being a useful feature if it doesn't break things like window managers, oneko, and such

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  305. tom

    but other than that, I don't really see how that only justifies a huge compatibility breaking change like that

  306. Link Mauve

    Of course it prevents your window manager from running, and oneko would have to be a priviledged client or part of the compositor.

  307. tom

    that doens't sound very good

  308. Link Mauve

    But it’s becoming very simple to build a full compositor by writing only code that you would write for window management before, with libraries like wlroots.

  309. Link Mauve

    So it’s only a matter that people were targetting Xlib only, and now have to target either Xlib or wlroots or both.

  310. tom

    so other than wayland compatibility, (which I don't see has justified or being worth the hassle) why else would someone want to switch to gtk3?

  311. Link Mauve

    Depending on whether they want full control over the display mechanisms, or if they want to delegate that to Xorg.

  312. Link Mauve

    In the latter case, they can’t support Wayland.

  313. Link Mauve

    tom, have you just made the effort of opening the release notes or design plan of GTK+ 3.0?

  314. Link Mauve

    If not, then there is no point to this discussion.

  315. tom


  316. tom

    qrong link

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  323. tom

    I can only find the release notes for gnome3

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  330. tom

    would you provide a link?

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  339. Link Mauve

    tom, second result on ddg: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2011-February/msg00022.html

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  341. tom

    basing the theming api on CSS is a horrible idea

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  343. Ge0rG

    let's build on the shoulders of giants?

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  345. Link Mauve

    Note that that’s only the 3.0 release, not everything was done by then so the following releases added a lot of missing pieces, while always keeping it ABI compatible.

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  349. tom

    dbus integration is also a horrible idea. dbus sucks

  350. Link Mauve

    tom, I don’t see what’s wrong with it, most designers these days are used to CSS for apparence.

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  352. tom

    just because something is popular doesn't make it good

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  358. tom

    also, what was wrong with the privious theming api?

  359. tom


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  363. Link Mauve

    Most likely, that it wasn’t popular enough, so random passerbys had to learn an entirely new language to theme their application or DE.

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  365. Link Mauve

    But that’s a thing better asked to GTK+ people from 2008.

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  368. Link Mauve

    I can only speculate on their intentions.

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  373. tom

    there were and are plenty of great gtk2 themes already out there

  374. Link Mauve

    Although this change seems to have panned well.

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  377. tom

    also, learning how to use your tools is just a fact of life

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  381. tom

    regarding the last relase note, added an application chooser, I have a perfectly fine gtk2 based application chooser that didn't require a whole major release number to implement

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  383. Link Mauve

    tom, so what good does it give to have to learn two different languages, to make web applications and GTK+ applications, while it could be a single one?

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  386. tom


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  389. tom

    because there is a difference between web applications and programs

  390. tom

    that line should not be blurred

  391. Link Mauve

    Eww, Flash.

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  394. Link Mauve

    That’s a thing I haven’t used in a decade.

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  397. Link Mauve

    tom, using CSS for theming is hardly “blurring” anything.

  398. Link Mauve

    And why should it not, btw?

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  401. Link Mauve

    Some other toolkits like Qt went much further with the integration of web technologies, integrating a JavaScript engine, CSS, QtQuick, and even Chromium for their web needs.

  402. tom

    when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine

  403. tom

    and Javascript is a terrible terrible language. It always was even from the beginning

  404. tom

    You can polish poop but at the end up the day it's still a peice of shit

  405. tom

    the compatibility breaking change of using css for theming does not justify itself in a cost to gain ratio. the gtk2 theming api is perfectly expressive enough for what it does and simple enough too

  406. tom

    I've made and modified my own gtk2 themes, i'm not talking out of my ass here

  407. tom

    >tom‎: when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine sorry, something happened here. I meant to say: when you attempt to blue the line of web browser and programs, you end of turning a markup renderer into a bloated, virtual machine

  408. tom


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  410. tom

    does that answer your question?

  411. tom

    just to give you an example of the bloat of the fallacies that have brought us "web 2.0" firefox 52 (even before you had to compile rust to compile firefox) took and still takes longer than GCC to compile

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  414. tom

    GCC used to be the most bloated and longest to compile thing of the entire operating system

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  417. tom

    >* More flexible geometry management, with support for height-for-width, for both widgets and cell renderers. Why did a compatibility breaking change be needed to implement this?

  418. tom

    * Modern input device handling. The input device handling in GDK has long been a sadly neglected area. This has changed; with 3.0, GTK+ steps into the modern world of XI2 with full support for multiple pointers, keyboards and other gizmos. Sounds like a GDK problem not a GTK problem. Just patch gdk

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  420. Link Mauve

    Sorry I was doing something else.

  421. tom

    no problem

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  423. Link Mauve

    But a compatibility break eleven years ago, with a lot of other things required to change, has long since given benefits.

  424. Link Mauve

    The gtk2 theming API is just an artifact from the past nowadays.

  425. tom


  426. Link Mauve

    tom, but I wasn’t arguing for bloating the web, it already does that on its own perfectly well, I was talking about using the useful parts of it, familiar to many, to make your own software more familiar.

  427. Link Mauve

    tom, see, I’m a random who only knows HTML and some CSS, I want to change some visual things in my IM client.

  428. Link Mauve

    Now, with gtk3 I can just apply my preexisting knowledge.

  429. tom

    yes, and I'm saying maybe so (i doubt it though) but that doesn't justify breaking everything to change it

  430. Link Mauve

    With gtk2, I’d simply be demoralised away by having to learn yet another language.

  431. tom

    well that's your own fault

  432. Link Mauve

    tom, the break happened for many other reasons, your gtk2 themes wouldn’t have been compatible with gtk3 even if they kept the language.

  433. Link Mauve

    tom, sure, you can blame the user.

  434. Link Mauve

    You can also accept criticism and aim for a more user-friendly experience.

  435. tom

    being demoralized from having to learn new stuff is

  436. Link Mauve

    I’ve met a lot of people identifying as web developers, who outright reject the idea to learn anything else.

  437. Link Mauve

    And they can live perfectly well.

  438. Link Mauve

    Same for Java developers, same for C developers, same for Python developers.

  439. tom

    that's why they are web developers

  440. tom

    and you can stay in in a bubble

  441. Link Mauve

    Yes, that’s in their self-description. What does it bring to cut yourself from these people in order to undo an eleven years old language change?

  442. Link Mauve

    With the hingsight, it’s only brought nice things.

  443. tom

    what? I don't understand your metaphors

  444. Link Mauve

    tom, there is no metaphor here.

  445. tom

    no one is self mutilating

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  448. tom

    and years of constant breakage and instability is not a nice thing

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  451. tom

    also completely abandoning decades of UI research for hamburger buttons is not a nice thing

  452. pep.

    Heh, still arguing about using gtk2? :p

  453. Ge0rG

    Mhm... Hamburgers!

  454. tom

    a button for buttons

  455. Link Mauve

    tom, “cut yourself out” means making a clear separation between you and a given set of people in English.

  456. Link Mauve

    tom, that’s an application developer decision, whether they put menus or other things.

  457. Link Mauve

    Nothing the toolkit can do for you.

  458. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, oh, good idea.

  459. Link Mauve

    I should have breakfast, and start packing, I leave in less than one hour.

  460. Link Mauve

    And get out of bed too.

  461. tom

    because if you want to enter a new field, you should learn the tools of the trade. NOt attempt to adapt tools of a different trade before learning the traditional way of doing things.

  462. tom

    at least learn from the more experienced before attempting to forge your own way

  463. tom

    I don't go get a job as a car mechanic and refuse to learn a wrench and attempt to use a keyboard to change my oil

  464. Link Mauve

    tom, but as a random user, do you want to enter a new field, or simply customise your chat client?

  465. Link Mauve

    Using a chat client should never have the same requirements as getting a job as a car mechanic.

  466. tom

    I want a XMPP client for my computers that doesn't have a phone client. Also, If I'm going to be upgrading I want the upgrade to at least be equivalent or slightly better than what I had before

  467. tom

    *phone interface

  468. Link Mauve

    Same for me, except I don’t care where the inspiration comes for the interface.

  469. tom

    I want a computer interface on my computer. not a tablet interface on my computer

  470. Link Mauve

    I mean, I use a client inspired by terminal IRC clients, of course I don’t. :D

  471. tom

    I also refuse to lose customizability I had before

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  474. tom

    for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels

  475. tom

    Gajim's 0.16.9 interface is probably the best IM interface I've ever used. Like ever

  476. tom

    then 1.x just completely throws it all out the window

  477. tom


  478. tom

    because windows are "old"

  479. tom

    not because what they are using now is better, but because popups and windows are "old"

  480. tom

    just because something is new doesn't make it better. and just because something is old doesn't make it worse

  481. Ge0rG

    focus-stealing popups always have been bad

  482. tom

    If nobody else is going to fix file transfer in Gajim 0.16.x I'll do it myself

  483. tom

    I would however appreciate some help in figuring out why exactly the issues are occuring in the fist place

  484. Link Mauve

    “10:54:10 tom> for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels”, great, all of those are customisable using *wait for it* CSS!

  485. Link Mauve

    tom, you can read the history between your latest commit and master.

  486. Link Mauve

    But be aware that it’s very long.

  487. Link Mauve

    And I wouldn’t advise doing that.

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  490. tom

    Why should I when gtk2 works absolutely fine?

  491. tom

    also the file picker in gtk2

  492. tom

    Nothing, not even the qt one comes close to it

  493. tom

    Can you show me a gtk3 theme that looks like gtk2?

  494. Link Mauve


  495. tom

    hmm. ok. I could use that as a middle ground in the meantime to fix the glaring ui design failures, but still, as with all my previous posts, the change to gtk3 is not justified in a cost to gain ratio

  496. Link Mauve

    With most software having moved, maintaining them all in an old version will only accumulate work.

  497. Link Mauve

    So, good luck in your impossible quest I guess.

  498. Link Mauve

    At some point maybe you’ll realise the cost to gain ratio is really not to your benefit.

  499. Link Mauve

    In the meantime, I’m going on weekend, see y’all next week! \o_

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  523. tom

    Link Mauve, fuck you

  524. pep.


  525. tom

    I'm sick and tired of your passive agressiveness

  526. pep.

    I totally agree with Link Mauve (/me throws oil on the fire)

  527. tom


  528. pep.

    Maybe you should start a gtk2 support group for people traumatized with gtk3

  529. tom

    maybe you should stop being ass asshole

  530. pep.

    If you manage to gather enough people to maintain gtk2 it might become worth your time

  531. tom

    gtk2 is maintained, what are you talking about?

  532. tom

    the last patch was only 14 days ago

  533. tom

    are you actually asking or just trying to piss me off

  534. tom

    What really needs to happen is an anti-redhat group

  535. tom

    Every single thing to come out of redhat minus qemu patches and md has been a downgrade in the oss ecosystem

  536. tom


  537. tom


  538. tom


  539. tom


  540. tom


  541. tom


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  544. muppeth


  545. muppeth


  546. tom

    that too

  547. muppeth

    hahahaha because manually configuring every single server is so much better

  548. tom

    Redhat's a special fucking snowflake and can't using a staging tarball like every other unix os

  549. muppeth is evil gnome user that actually likes the new changes so i stay away from this one

  550. tom

    noting wrong with gnome2

  551. tom

    I actually used to use it

  552. muppeth

    and i'm comming form 10+ yeasrs of using only tiling managers

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  555. muppeth

    tom i mean gnome3

  556. tom


  557. tom

    is there anyone here that agrees with me?

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  559. muppeth

    i moved to gnome because they droppped what they were doing and decided to do something new (aka gtk/gnome3)

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  561. tom

    anyone at all?

  562. tom

    seriously, what the hell

  563. tom

    what the hell happened to the industry in the last 7 yeays]

  564. muppeth

    tom, i guess it moved on

  565. muppeth

    I dont see what your problem here is tbh

  566. tom


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  568. muppeth

    because as everything things move on

  569. tom

    Why is bloat and spyware the norm now?

  570. muppeth

    because people are borred of doing the same thing over and over again

  571. muppeth

    i dont know

  572. tom

    that's too general

  573. muppeth


  574. tom

    your just fucking with me

  575. muppeth

    where is the spyware in anything you mentioned?

  576. tom

    I'm trying to have a serious conversation about the stuff coming out of redhat and web not being good and all I get is assholes trying to derail

  577. tom

    like yourself

  578. tom

    I don't know why I spend the effort explaing this shit

  579. muppeth

    tom, imo all you do is shout some random shit, fueled by your frustration

  580. tom

    maybe I think your capable of reason

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  582. tom

    obviously not the case

  583. muppeth

    itsa very simple. you dont like gtk3, as you mentioned gtk2 is still supported. whats your problem?

  584. muppeth

    someone higher said he likes web stuff. you dont. whats the issue. develop/use non-web stuff. period

  585. muppeth

    I dont like propretary software nor apple/google/windows etc. I dont use it

  586. muppeth

    how's that for a reason

  587. tom

    the problem is I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement, and I'm just met wet "just upgrade to gajim 1.x, oh you don't like gtk3? you must be some of of fuckhead then i'm right your wrong and stupid

  588. tom

    good luck with your impossible quest

  589. tom

    I don't need you to fucking tell me to switch to fuckin wayland

  590. muppeth

    tom, thats why i said i dont know what the initial question was.

  591. muppeth

    tom, noone tells you to do anything afais

  592. tom

    oh, were you not here for that conversation?

  593. tom

    I'm sorry then, that wasn't for you

  594. pep.

    tom: the specific issue with gajim is that the older versions don't support a ton of feature that are rather necessary nowadays. You might not like gtk3, but then you're cutting yourself from these other features and lose your rights to complain about them not existing (just like using pidgin nowadays is shooting yourself in the foot). You could make a gtk2 version of the newest branch of gajim maybe, or port these missing features in the older branch

  595. tom

    > a ton of feature WHAT FEAUTURES?

  596. Holger

    > I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html

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  599. Holger

    tom: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim-plugins/wikis/httpuploadplugin

  600. tom

    is that it?

  601. Holger

    That's my answer to your question about which spec offers more reliable file transfer, yes.

  602. tom

    so there's no way to fix peer to peer transfer on XMPP, it's just been replaced with http uploads?

  603. Holger

    I *think* that plugin should even work with 0.16 so maybe there's actually nothing to do besides installing it?

  604. Holger

    tom: Well p2p is hard(er) to make reliable.

  605. tom

    can it be?

  606. tom

    let me rephrase

  607. Holger

    Most clients basically replace it with upload yes. Not just because reliability but also to make it work with offline peers, multi-device setups, and group chat.

  608. tom

    if implementing perfectly by the spec, can p2p transfer be made to be reliable?

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  611. Holger

    I agree it's not exactly elegant but the fact that it just works is kinda nice.

  612. tom


  613. Holger

    tom: The problem is that there's multiple specs and incompatible revisions of those in the wild. Plus the limitations I mentioned above.

  614. Holger

    tom: Apart from that I think it can be made reliable, yes.

  615. tom

    hmm.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html says it's still only draft

  616. Holger

    Yeah if you take the XEP status seriously you can basically forget about XMPP.

  617. Holger

    For p2p you'd do XEP-0234 these days which is 'Deferred'.

  618. tom

    hmm. Looks like i'm going to have to switch XMPP providers to get that to work

  619. tom

    not a huge deal, I've been looking to host my own for a while now

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  622. Ge0rG

    Haha, I'm not the only one grumpy about the Gnome CADT model and all the new shit that's working differently from the old shit that I know to operate.

  623. Ge0rG

    BTW, hosting your own XMPP server is the first thing to be actually on-topic in this room

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  632. Holger

    I don't quite get why everyone is mourning for the Gnome2 UI. It's just Windows 95 and there's still plenty (most?) DEs doing just that.

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  635. Ge0rG

    I think the problem is Gnome 3 with its opaque buttons where you have no way to find out what they do short of clicking and looking

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  638. Ge0rG patched away the full-screen shit with some LD_PRELOAD black magic, but it's still fugly

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  641. Holger

    Hmmm. Dunno I chose Gnome 3 as the first DE for my little son and he seems to cope just fine.

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  644. Holger

    Not sure what buttons you mean exactly. There aren't many in the first place :-)

  645. Holger

    (And on-topic is overrated.)

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  656. Holger

    Whatever, I don't care at all what others use. I'm just happy the GNOME people tried something else because I think there's still plenty old-school DEs if you prefer those.

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  669. Ge0rG is running fluxbox which is based on blackbox which is ancient.

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  674. Holger

    Ah I used that myself one or two decades ago :-)

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  691. muppeth

    Holger, agree. I like gnome because its different. I used pretty much everything out there from fluxbox, xfce, kde, through awesomeWM and i3. I just deployed Gnome3 desktops at work and i was amazed by the reaction from normal non-tech folk that find it super comfortable to use. some even say its better then MacOS and i start recieving windows laptops form them (and now some of their friends that saw it) asking if I would "load" that linux thing on their personal computers.

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  694. muppeth

    so i guess gnome is doing something right. its not for everyone but so isnt Mate or tilling window manager

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  701. tom

    thank you for your help Holger

  702. tom

    muppeth, I think that's the problem. GNOME3 and gtk3 alienate 'tech folk' in favor of computer illiterates when their previous userbase is power users

  703. muppeth

    tom, totally disagree. I consider mysefl power user. I used tilling window manager exclusively for over 10 years. I moved to gnome now, being still power user

  704. muppeth

    i do undertsand people want to use tilling managers still

  705. tom


  706. Ge0rG

    everything is one huge tile in gnome3! :D

  707. muppeth

    i dont uderstand how using a DE make me less of a power user?! I use terminal for work. tbh most of the time i dont even need XServer to do my work

  708. tom

    I find myself doing to opposite, slowly moving more and more into tiling managers because i'm being alienated by gnome

  709. tom

    not because I like tiling

  710. tom

    because I can't find another option

  711. tom

    I"ve moved from gnome2 to matte, then they went gtk3

  712. tom

    then to xfce

  713. tom

    then they went gtk3

  714. muppeth

    maybe because gtk3 is better

  715. tom

    then to i3wm because I'm not sure whereless to go

  716. Holger

    tom: I understand how the GNOME transition was painful and alienated parts of the existing user base, but I totally appreciate *some* DE project targetting "computer illiterates" so I have something good to offer them.

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  718. tom

    there was already a project that targeted computer illiterates, and I don't see why gnome had to alienate it's own users to switch target userbases

  719. Holger

    But yes if it's about avoiding GTK+ 3 I see your problem. Qt not an option?

  720. tom


  721. pep.

    People are almost never happy with change anyway, what's good for one is going to annoy the other. I'm fine if I'm not GNOME's target user anymore (or never was), I just don't use it

  722. muppeth

    but what is your problem really. gnome poeple wanted to do something and they did. according to your logic, software cannot change because there is this tom guy and he wont like it.

  723. Holger

    tom: Well I think it's hard to build a single piece of software that makes both power users and illiterates happy.

  724. tom

    qt is not as bad as gtk3, but it's still a downgrade. It also has no support for C

  725. tom

    also the file picker

  726. muppeth

    Holger, why? gnome3 or kde does just that. it makes non-tech and tech people happy.

  727. tom

    doesn't worker nearly as well as the one in gtk2 does

  728. Ge0rG

    Whoever is using C as a UI language, deserves all the resulting pain

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  730. tom

    muppeth, no, kde is hard to justify in that case.

  731. muppeth

    just some poeple dont like it for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure there is a DE that fits them too and if it doesmt, well time to write your own tom

  732. tom

    KDE pissed people off soo bad and much that they went and created the Trinity Desktop Envrioment

  733. tom

    in the kde3 -> kde4 transition

  734. muppeth

    tom which people?! all 5 of them?>

  735. Ge0rG

    how many greybeard linux nerds do you need to write a Desktop Environment?

  736. tom

    muppeth, cut the smartass unhelpful remarks

  737. tom

    I'm trying to have a conversation

  738. muppeth

    tom, my remarks are no different then your whining. you blame decissions made by gnome team from your perspective.

  739. muppeth

    whats the point of this 'conversation'?

  740. muppeth

    whine that everyone

  741. tom

    >‎[05:10:18 AM] ‎muppeth‎: tom which people?! all 5 of them?> >‎[05:06:01 AM] ‎muppeth‎: maybe because gtk3 is better

  742. muppeth

    whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?

  743. tom

    >[05:11:35 AM] ‎muppeth‎: whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?

  744. muppeth

    tom, as you pointed out everyone moves to gtk3. it means it must be good right?

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  747. tom

    your attempting to derail to conversation

  748. Ge0rG

    tom: you are derailing the conversation for hours now.

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  751. Ge0rG

    This is the XMPP Operators Room. It is about XMPP Operators.

  752. Holger

    muppeth: In the context of window managers I'd call "power users" those who want a high amount of configurability/flexibility/extensibility and/or powerful features that aren't necessarily intuitive (i.e. tiling WMs or so).

  753. tom

    that doesn't justify muppeth's passive aggressive snipes

  754. Holger

    muppeth: In general I think offering more powerful UI often conflicts with intuitiveness because it requires a steeper learning curve.

  755. Ge0rG

    tom: you lost the remains of your credibility when you told Link Mauve to f*** themselves.

  756. tom

    muppeth, your rude

  757. muppeth

    Holger, yes. exactly. check dconf (very unintuitive, anti-userfirendly) tool to change every single bit of your gnome experience 😛 very power user frioendly 🙂

  758. Holger

    muppeth: Hence I think it's often hard to make both target audiences happy in one go.

  759. muppeth

    tom, I'm rude? I got active in here because i saw your insults towards others here.

  760. Holger

    muppeth: Nah dconf doesn't allow me to turn GNOME 3 into i3.

  761. muppeth

    Holger, i think its a good balance. non-power users have very little options to get overwhelmed or screw up with, while other can change every single piece. not to mention you can hook it all up to ansible and manage/configure every aspect on every desktop you administer.

  762. muppeth

    Holger, but also i3 doesnt allow you to become gnome. there are restrictions, although the tiling functionalities in gnome are getting interesting lately, so soon you will actually be able tyo make gnome into i3 while not the other way around 😛

  763. muppeth

    anyway as i said there are no bad DE/WM just different expectations of poeple, and its nice that you acctually have choice.

  764. Ge0rG

    Can we please get Poettering into here to discuss the merits of gnome3?

  765. tom

    If you ask me all this shit is just the Extend in Embrace Extend Exterminate

  766. tom

    and about non-power users have very little options

  767. tom

    non-power users have Windows and Mac OSX

  768. tom

    and they have https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US

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  775. tom

    Why is the so much of a concern to write software for computer illiterates anyways?

  776. Ge0rG

    tom: because most users are computer illiterates

  777. tom

    Why are a lot of developers writing software for computer illiterates instead of themselves out of being paid to do it?

  778. Ge0rG

    tom: the right question would be: why are so many developers writing software for computer illiterates, despite lacking the required skills?

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  780. tom

    no, I'm asking why they would want to be going through all the effort of writing software for someone else with different interests and abilities while not even being paid to do it

  781. Licaon_Kter

    tom: because devs won't have work to do....?

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  783. tom

    if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?

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  785. Holger

    > if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests? My impression is that's still the case for most spare-time devs.

  786. Ge0rG

    I'm a spare-time dev writing software for other people.

  787. Holger

    You're different!

  788. Holger

    Another impression is that there fraction of few software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.

  789. Ge0rG


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  792. Holger

    Another impression is that there fraction of free software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.

  793. Holger

    So it's more driven by profitability these days.

  794. tom


  795. Ge0rG

    Not all of my software is profitable.

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  797. Holger

    You're different!

  798. tom

    Ge0rG is?

  799. tom


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  803. Ge0rG

    tom: I am why what?

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  805. tom

    > ‎Holger‎: You're different!

  806. Ge0rG

    tom: apparently because I'm writing software for normal people, and because not all of my software is profitable

  807. tom

    but that's what Holger was saying your different from yes?

  808. tom

    Holger, what you care to clarify?

  809. Holger

    Ge0rG is working on an XMPP client that targets normal end-users in his spare time. And my impression is that this is a somewhat uncommon case.

  810. Holger

    Or maybe somewhat specific to the XMPP/chat field. Where you have an interested to chat with others, possibly with illiterates. Which requires software that's usable by them.

  811. Ge0rG

    chat with illiterates! \o/

  812. Holger


  813. tom

    by normal you mean computer illiterate right?

  814. Holger


  815. tom


  816. pea has joined

  817. tom

    If I might make a reccomendation

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  819. tom

    if you could make a stripped down xmpp client that only works in google chrome

  820. tom

    as a 'web app'

  821. Ge0rG

    it's called converse.js :P

  822. muppeth

    tom, I dont understand your argument. I'm not computer illiterate and i do like for example gnome. I have a feeling for you software for non-illetirates must look like its still 90s or something.

  823. tom

    most computer illiterates don't know how to use software and think that installing programs gives them viruses

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  826. tom

    they do everything from a google chrome. just look at email

  827. muppeth

    tom, not true. I run a platform that provides services to people and you would be suprised how many 'illiterate' people actually use it while you would think its only for the elitist power users.

  828. muppeth

    world isnt 0 or 1

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  831. muppeth

    i know few 'illiterate' people what use old xfce. not because they are power users that dont like change, but because they are used to their old wondows95 UI

  832. tom

    if your looking for adoption, that might be the way to go

  833. muppeth

    your preference for software does not make you better then others.

  834. muppeth

    or software better then the other

  835. vanitasvitae

    In my opinion computer illiterates should simply stay away from computers.

  836. tom

    I fully agree with vanitasvitae on this one, but unfortunately that's not going to happen

  837. vanitasvitae

    You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.

  838. tom

    well maybe, if you can isolate computer illiterates to smartphones that might work

  839. vanitasvitae


  840. vanitasvitae

    Smartphones are computers as well

  841. vanitasvitae

    Even lightswitches are, depending on the scientific model you use.

  842. Ge0rG

    > You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works. Nobody does that. Please turn off your computers immediately and become a potato farmer.

  843. Licaon_Kter

    vanitasvitae: turing complete lightswitches?

  844. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: potatos can eletricity

  845. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: potatos can electricity

  846. tom

    about the chrome-only webapp thing, that's actually a fairly popular thing. Thats the enture premis of ChromeOS

  847. tom

    You don't have a computer, you just have a netbook that only runs a web browser

  848. Ge0rG

    tom: https://inverse.chat

  849. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG: lets collapse society!

  850. tom

    yeah, that doesn't even do anything but render a solid blue page in my browser ,even with javascript and cookies enabled

  851. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: it was your premise. I'm perfectly fine using tech I don't understand

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  853. muppeth

    vanitasvitae, still it doesnt mean my workspace cannot look nice and needs to look like shit crafted in mid 90s. i still dont see how is gnome / gtk3 made for illiterates and hated universally by everyone that knows a bit of how stuff works.

  854. vanitasvitae

    "Mom, you're not a full stack developer? No Candy Crush for you!" Simple as that!

  855. muppeth


  856. vanitasvitae

    I hope by now its obvious that my statement was not meant serious :D

  857. muppeth

    its more of a response to tom then to you vanitasvitae i think

  858. muppeth

    though candy crash should be made illegal

  859. vanitasvitae

    I'm with you on that point ;)

  860. tom

    Is there any reason the Prosody website recommends installing Prosody from Ports instead of Packages for OpenBSD?

  861. MattJ

    Probably because someone familiar with OpenBSD told us to put that there

  862. tom

    I'll take that advice then

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  876. tom

    Is there any reason to put the muc on a seperate subdomain?

  877. tom

    or can you put the muc on the same domain as the main server, for example xmpp.domain.tld instead of xmpp.domain.tld and muc.domain.tld

  878. tom

    or conference.domain.tld

  879. Ge0rG

    tom: some clients will expect that, or confuse things when MUCs are not separate

  880. Ge0rG

    tom: btw you shouldn't have "xmpp" or "jabber" in your xmpp domain, use SRV records for your main domain instead

  881. tom


  882. tom


  883. Ge0rG

    tom: when a client receives a carbon copy of a MUC-PM message it needs to check whether it's a MUC or not, and a set of clients will revert to checking that on the domain

  884. Ge0rG

    I'm sure now that I've said "carbon copy of a MUC-PM message" you understand the problem.

  885. tom

    so it's better to put in on it's own subdomain for buggy clients?

  886. Ge0rG

    it's better to put them on their own domain because of an oversight in the protocol.

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  889. lag

    Ge0rG: really? This is how I've been using, xmpp.example.tld with A record and an SRV record to xmpp.example.tld. What kind of problems can arise?

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  891. Ge0rG

    lag: it's not a problem, it's just a remnant of the old times when you didn't have SRV records to allow using your normal email address as a JID as well

  892. tom

    I wish it was possible to use nextcloud FIDs be the same as emails too

  893. tom

    (federated id)

  894. Ge0rG

    you can have that with xmpp for 20 years now.

  895. tom

    nextcloud is fairly new

  896. Ge0rG

    yes, and they went to reinveng messaging.

  897. Ge0rG

    because there isn't enough messaging already with xmpp and matrix.

  898. tom

    they did?

  899. Ge0rG

    as far as I understood, yes

  900. Ge0rG

    and then they realized people want federation, and were like: ugh what? how? what now?

  901. tom

    Double check that, Nextcloud is more of a file/calender collaboration suite

  902. Ge0rG

    IIRC it's called "nextcloud talk"

  903. tom

    They have a video chat, but I think that's only for people who you need to talk to but like only have skype or something

  904. tom

    I remember there being a plugin somewhere for xmpp integration, but really nextcloud is more of a file and calender sync service

  905. Ge0rG

    I can only keep up with so many messaging silos.

  906. Ge0rG

    ask me about XMPP.

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  908. tom


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  910. tom

    your have any experience with mod_onions and mod_darknet ?

  911. Ge0rG

    no. I think that if you are into zero-metadata comms, you should use a protocol designed for that, like briar

  912. tom

    no, it's more about stopping illegal dragnet mass survailance

  913. tom

    transparent darknet integration is nice

  914. Ge0rG

    Germany is forbidding the darknet now.

  915. tom


  916. tom

    I thought germany was a democracy?

  917. tom

    I wonder how they plan to enforce that

  918. Ge0rG

    I don't know yet.

  919. Licaon_Kter

    tom: swat teams as usual? As CCC

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  921. tom

    seems super sketch, banning network anonymity

  922. Ge0rG


  923. tom

    oh, so it's not law just a proposal

  924. Ge0rG

    it was accepted yesterday

  925. Ge0rG

    or at least passed one of the parliamentary chambers.

  926. Ge0rG

    But the politicians are sufficiently clueless to let it through, especially with the right wing being rather strong

  927. pep.

    Ge0rG: I saw that not so long ago :(

  928. tom

    communist china bans tor, but there's still tens of thousands of users

  929. pep.

    I think it's time to make more tor nodes

  930. tom

    you beat me to it

  931. tom

    There's no better time to setup tor than when governments start trying to ban it

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  1087. 404.city

    tom The reason for transfer errors in large file sizes, no one thought a few years ago that large files would be sent via http upload

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  1281. tom

    thank you 404.city

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  1317. tom

    Link Mauve, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0

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  1325. tom

    maybe it's time I take another look into qt

  1326. tom

    Does Psi support XMPP well?

  1327. SouL

    tom: depends on your definition, it does in my opinion

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  1330. tom

    sure, I mean does it implement most of the important XEPs properly

  1331. tom

    the comparison would be pidgin, which doesn't do that

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