tomIs there any way to increase file transfer reliability?
tomfile transfers with my friend keep failing
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mightyBroccoliCould you be more specific? Error code or the failure message displayed from the client?
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Licaon_Ktertom: server? Server software? Client?
tomGajim 0.16.9 sending to Gajim 0.16.6 server is.... hold on
tomwhatever 404.city is on and....
Licaon_Ktertom: oh....that Gajim is how many years old?
Licaon_KterThings have changed...
tomProsody
tomLicaon_Kter, oh?
tomI don't think there's a release of Gajim past 0.16.x that still supports gtk2
Licaon_KterYeah, eg that upload namespace thing
Licaon_Ktertom: eh....
tomIf you can tell me what's wrong I could probably figure out how to patch Gajim 0.16 myself
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tomMy friend is also stuck on Gajim 0.16.x because of the forced gtk+3 and he's a programmer as well.
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tomLicaon_Kter, what's up?
Licaon_Ktertom: error logs?
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tomuhm.. let me check
tomstrange
tomDoes Gajim have error logs somewhere? or are you talking about server logs
tomare you still with me Licaon_Kter ?
Licaon_Ktertom: I dunno the answer...hence....
tomok
tomI'll keep looking into it, so far it just show a X icon next to the failed trasfers. Not very descriptive
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Link Mauvetom, you should update, the 0.16 branch is abandonned, and so is gtk2.
Link MauveAnd there are many features which have been added in 1.0 and later, such as more failure-proof file transfer.
Link MauveHeh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^
Link MauveHeh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^
Link MauveHeh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depend on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^
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tomgtk2 isn't abandoned, it still receives patches, if if that were to change I will patch it should a need arise
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tomand gtk3 is not a generic toolkit, it's the gnome graphical toolkit
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tomit's also optimized for tablets, not computers.
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tomand it isn't stable
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tomI'd much rather fork Gajim 0.16 if nobody else is going to
tombackport useful features
tomgtk3 is so unusable to me that the effort required to backport and maintain 0.16.x is worth the effort for me
tomeven spending money to pay for development help
Link Mauvetom, gtk3 will not see any newer minor version, only patch releases, that is the Debian definition of “stable”.
Link MauveIt also is definitely not “optimised” more for tablets than for anything else.
Link MauveAnd yet also, not targetting GNOME in the slightest, there are just people involved in both projects.
tomI've used the 1.x release
tomof gajim
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tomand it's probably the worst release i've ever used ui wise
tomnow if there is another jabber client out there that you'd recommend that doesn't force gtk+3 and doesn't fall for whatever the latest UI fads are and that isn't based on nodejs I would like to know
Link MauvePlease open issues for things which could be improved.
Link Mauvetom, hmm, maybe look for the Qt ones?
Link MauveSwift for instance, or Kaidan, or JabberCat.
tomLink Mauve, I don't think Gajim wants to improve. I took some of my concerns to their muc and they just insulted me
Link MauveOr even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS.
Link MauveOr even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS at runtime.
tomI also don't see a valid reason for switching off of gtk2
Link Mauvetom, I’m pretty sure it does.
Link Mauvetom, oh, there is a very valid one: it isn’t supported by anyone.
tomWell I will take your word for and and open a ticket
tomLink Mauve, What do you mean supported?
Link MauveIf your suggestion is just “switch from gtk3 to gtk2”, of course nobody will do that.
Link MauveBut if you have valid UI or UX concerns, that’s relevant.
Link Mauvetom, no one is pouring time to fix or improve gtk2 anymore.
tomwhat is there to fix?
Link MauveReally?
Link MauveHave a look at all of the reasons for gtk3’s existence. :)
Link MauveThe main one for me was Wayland support.
Link Mauvegtk3’s is damn good.
Link Mauvegtk2’s, well, inexistant.
tomthe last patch to gtk2 was 14 days ago
tomcommit c505d3f what do you mean not supported?
tomalso, what reasons for gtk3's existance?
tomwayland isn't even stable yet, and doesn't work on the BSDs
Link MauveLook at the release notes if you aren’t aware of it.
tomand X11 forwarding over SSH doesn't work on wayland
Link Mauvetom, erm, can you please stop with the false accusations please? Wayland has been stable since 2012 and has worked on any system with UNIX sockets and shared memory.
Link Mauvetom, it sure does, as long as your compositor provides an Xwayland integration (and all do, to my knowledge).
Licaon_KterThis escalated fast....
tomreally? I didn't know
tomDoes wayland work on OpeBSD?
Link Mauvetom, sure.
Link MauveI mean, it certainly has unix sockets, and shared memory support, as it exposes a POSIX API.
tomSo, as a person who has used X for a decade and has not had a problem with it, why would I want to use Wayland instead? and Why do most operating systems not ship with Wayland, but X instead?
Link MauveSome compositors may have additional requirements, such as OpenGL support for rendering, or udev for input, but at least when I had to run Weston on FreeBSD for a client that was working.
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Link Mauvetom, personally, it was because I was tired of tearing happening all the time, and because of the complete isolation between processes, as well as the very simple and easy to understand and to extend protocol.
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tomI'm certainly not going to go ahead and install Wayland just to run a graphical toolkit that has not yet even justified it's existance over gtk2 that I don't even like
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tomI've never experience tearing. Are you sure that wasn't just a graphics driver causing tearing?
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Link MauveFor instance I wanted to add quad-buffering support to a 3DS emulator, because that sounded like fun to be able to run its stereoscopic capabilities on a big 3DTV or VR device, and that was pretty much impossible on X11.
Link Mauvetom, it’s a combinaison of many things, Xorg being single-buffered being one.
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tomI am personally running 2 monitors, one of them being a 144Hz and 1080p while the other being 1900x800 at 60hz.
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tomI don't experience any tearing besides what on the 60hz one if I play a videogame on it without vsync, but that's the monitor's fault. it's a cheapo unit and does that across any os
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Link MauveI’m pretty sure it isn’t due to the monitor, try it with Wayland for instance.
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Link MauveI also had a lot of misconceptions before getting deep into the graphics stack. ^^
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tomI can see process screen isolation being a useful feature if it doesn't break things like window managers, oneko, and such
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tombut other than that, I don't really see how that only justifies a huge compatibility breaking change like that
Link MauveOf course it prevents your window manager from running, and oneko would have to be a priviledged client or part of the compositor.
tomthat doens't sound very good
Link MauveBut it’s becoming very simple to build a full compositor by writing only code that you would write for window management before, with libraries like wlroots.
Link MauveSo it’s only a matter that people were targetting Xlib only, and now have to target either Xlib or wlroots or both.
tomso other than wayland compatibility, (which I don't see has justified or being worth the hassle) why else would someone want to switch to gtk3?
Link MauveDepending on whether they want full control over the display mechanisms, or if they want to delegate that to Xorg.
Link MauveIn the latter case, they can’t support Wayland.
Link Mauvetom, have you just made the effort of opening the release notes or design plan of GTK+ 3.0?
Link MauveIf not, then there is no point to this discussion.
tomhttps://lwn.net/Articles/300303/
tomqrong link
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tomI can only find the release notes for gnome3
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tomwould you provide a link?
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Link Mauvetom, second result on ddg: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2011-February/msg00022.html
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tombasing the theming api on CSS is a horrible idea
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Ge0rGlet's build on the shoulders of giants?
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Link MauveNote that that’s only the 3.0 release, not everything was done by then so the following releases added a lot of missing pieces, while always keeping it ABI compatible.
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tomdbus integration is also a horrible idea. dbus sucks
Link Mauvetom, I don’t see what’s wrong with it, most designers these days are used to CSS for apparence.
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tomjust because something is popular doesn't make it good
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tomalso, what was wrong with the privious theming api?
tom*previous
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Link MauveMost likely, that it wasn’t popular enough, so random passerbys had to learn an entirely new language to theme their application or DE.
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Link MauveBut that’s a thing better asked to GTK+ people from 2008.
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Link MauveI can only speculate on their intentions.
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tomthere were and are plenty of great gtk2 themes already out there
Link MauveAlthough this change seems to have panned well.
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tomalso, learning how to use your tools is just a fact of life
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tomregarding the last relase note, added an application chooser, I have a perfectly fine gtk2 based application chooser that didn't require a whole major release number to implement
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Link Mauvetom, so what good does it give to have to learn two different languages, to make web applications and GTK+ applications, while it could be a single one?
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tomhttps://0x0.st/zPsZ.png
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tombecause there is a difference between web applications and programs
tomthat line should not be blurred
Link MauveEww, Flash.
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Link MauveThat’s a thing I haven’t used in a decade.
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Link Mauvetom, using CSS for theming is hardly “blurring” anything.
Link MauveAnd why should it not, btw?
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Link MauveSome other toolkits like Qt went much further with the integration of web technologies, integrating a JavaScript engine, CSS, QtQuick, and even Chromium for their web needs.
tomwhen you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine
tomand Javascript is a terrible terrible language. It always was even from the beginning
tomYou can polish poop but at the end up the day it's still a peice of shit
tomthe compatibility breaking change of using css for theming does not justify itself in a cost to gain ratio. the gtk2 theming api is perfectly expressive enough for what it does and simple enough too
tomI've made and modified my own gtk2 themes, i'm not talking out of my ass here
tom>tom: when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine
sorry, something happened here. I meant to say:
when you attempt to blue the line of web browser and programs, you end of turning a markup renderer into a bloated, virtual machine
tom*blur
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tomdoes that answer your question?
tomjust to give you an example of the bloat of the fallacies that have brought us "web 2.0" firefox 52 (even before you had to compile rust to compile firefox) took and still takes longer than GCC to compile
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tomGCC used to be the most bloated and longest to compile thing of the entire operating system
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tom>* More flexible geometry management, with support for height-for-width,
for both widgets and cell renderers.
Why did a compatibility breaking change be needed to implement this?
tom* Modern input device handling. The input device handling in GDK has
long been a sadly neglected area. This has changed; with 3.0, GTK+
steps into the modern world of XI2 with full support for multiple
pointers, keyboards and other gizmos.
Sounds like a GDK problem not a GTK problem. Just patch gdk
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Link MauveSorry I was doing something else.
tomno problem
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Link MauveBut a compatibility break eleven years ago, with a lot of other things required to change, has long since given benefits.
Link MauveThe gtk2 theming API is just an artifact from the past nowadays.
tomWHAT BENEFITS?
Link Mauvetom, but I wasn’t arguing for bloating the web, it already does that on its own perfectly well, I was talking about using the useful parts of it, familiar to many, to make your own software more familiar.
Link Mauvetom, see, I’m a random who only knows HTML and some CSS, I want to change some visual things in my IM client.
Link MauveNow, with gtk3 I can just apply my preexisting knowledge.
tomyes, and I'm saying maybe so (i doubt it though) but that doesn't justify breaking everything to change it
Link MauveWith gtk2, I’d simply be demoralised away by having to learn yet another language.
tomwell that's your own fault
Link Mauvetom, the break happened for many other reasons, your gtk2 themes wouldn’t have been compatible with gtk3 even if they kept the language.
Link Mauvetom, sure, you can blame the user.
Link MauveYou can also accept criticism and aim for a more user-friendly experience.
tombeing demoralized from having to learn new stuff is
Link MauveI’ve met a lot of people identifying as web developers, who outright reject the idea to learn anything else.
Link MauveAnd they can live perfectly well.
Link MauveSame for Java developers, same for C developers, same for Python developers.
tomthat's why they are web developers
tomand you can stay in in a bubble
Link MauveYes, that’s in their self-description. What does it bring to cut yourself from these people in order to undo an eleven years old language change?
Link MauveWith the hingsight, it’s only brought nice things.
tomwhat? I don't understand your metaphors
Link Mauvetom, there is no metaphor here.
tomno one is self mutilating
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tomand years of constant breakage and instability is not a nice thing
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tomalso completely abandoning decades of UI research for hamburger buttons is not a nice thing
pep.Heh, still arguing about using gtk2? :p
Ge0rGMhm... Hamburgers!
toma button for buttons
Link Mauvetom, “cut yourself out” means making a clear separation between you and a given set of people in English.
Link Mauvetom, that’s an application developer decision, whether they put menus or other things.
Link MauveNothing the toolkit can do for you.
Link MauveGe0rG, oh, good idea.
Link MauveI should have breakfast, and start packing, I leave in less than one hour.
Link MauveAnd get out of bed too.
tombecause if you want to enter a new field, you should learn the tools of the trade. NOt attempt to adapt tools of a different trade before learning the traditional way of doing things.
tomat least learn from the more experienced before attempting to forge your own way
tomI don't go get a job as a car mechanic and refuse to learn a wrench and attempt to use a keyboard to change my oil
Link Mauvetom, but as a random user, do you want to enter a new field, or simply customise your chat client?
Link MauveUsing a chat client should never have the same requirements as getting a job as a car mechanic.
tomI want a XMPP client for my computers that doesn't have a phone client. Also, If I'm going to be upgrading I want the upgrade to at least be equivalent or slightly better than what I had before
tom*phone interface
Link MauveSame for me, except I don’t care where the inspiration comes for the interface.
tomI want a computer interface on my computer. not a tablet interface on my computer
Link MauveI mean, I use a client inspired by terminal IRC clients, of course I don’t. :D
tomI also refuse to lose customizability I had before
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tomfor example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels
tomGajim's 0.16.9 interface is probably the best IM interface I've ever used. Like ever
tomthen 1.x just completely throws it all out the window
tomwhy?
tombecause windows are "old"
tomnot because what they are using now is better, but because popups and windows are "old"
tomjust because something is new doesn't make it better. and just because something is old doesn't make it worse
Ge0rGfocus-stealing popups always have been bad
tomIf nobody else is going to fix file transfer in Gajim 0.16.x I'll do it myself
tomI would however appreciate some help in figuring out why exactly the issues are occuring in the fist place
Link Mauve“10:54:10 tom> for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels”, great, all of those are customisable using *wait for it* CSS!
Link Mauvetom, you can read the history between your latest commit and master.
Link MauveBut be aware that it’s very long.
Link MauveAnd I wouldn’t advise doing that.
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tomWhy should I when gtk2 works absolutely fine?
tomalso the file picker in gtk2
tomNothing, not even the qt one comes close to it
tomCan you show me a gtk3 theme that looks like gtk2?
Link MauveRaleigh?
tomhmm. ok. I could use that as a middle ground in the meantime to fix the glaring ui design failures, but still, as with all my previous posts, the change to gtk3 is not justified in a cost to gain ratio
Link MauveWith most software having moved, maintaining them all in an old version will only accumulate work.
Link MauveSo, good luck in your impossible quest I guess.
Link MauveAt some point maybe you’ll realise the cost to gain ratio is really not to your benefit.
Link MauveIn the meantime, I’m going on weekend, see y’all next week! \o_
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tomLink Mauve, fuck you
pep.:D
tomI'm sick and tired of your passive agressiveness
pep.I totally agree with Link Mauve (/me throws oil on the fire)
tomwhy?
pep.Maybe you should start a gtk2 support group for people traumatized with gtk3
tommaybe you should stop being ass asshole
pep.If you manage to gather enough people to maintain gtk2 it might become worth your time
tomgtk2 is maintained, what are you talking about?
tomthe last patch was only 14 days ago
tomare you actually asking or just trying to piss me off
tomWhat really needs to happen is an anti-redhat group
tomEvery single thing to come out of redhat minus qemu patches and md has been a downgrade in the oss ecosystem
tomdbus
tomGNOME3
tomconsolekit
tomPulseAudio
tomFreeDesktop
tomsystemd
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muppethlol
muppethansible
tomthat too
muppethhahahaha because manually configuring every single server is so much better
tomRedhat's a special fucking snowflake and can't using a staging tarball like every other unix os
muppethis evil gnome user that actually likes the new changes so i stay away from this one
tomnoting wrong with gnome2
tomI actually used to use it
muppethand i'm comming form 10+ yeasrs of using only tiling managers
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muppethtom i mean gnome3
tomok
tomis there anyone here that agrees with me?
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muppethi moved to gnome because they droppped what they were doing and decided to do something new (aka gtk/gnome3)
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tomanyone at all?
tomseriously, what the hell
tomwhat the hell happened to the industry in the last 7 yeays]
muppethtom, i guess it moved on
muppethI dont see what your problem here is tbh
tomwhy?
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muppethbecause as everything things move on
tomWhy is bloat and spyware the norm now?
muppethbecause people are borred of doing the same thing over and over again
muppethi dont know
tomthat's too general
muppethspyware?
tomyour just fucking with me
muppethwhere is the spyware in anything you mentioned?
tomI'm trying to have a serious conversation about the stuff coming out of redhat and web not being good and all I get is assholes trying to derail
tomlike yourself
tomI don't know why I spend the effort explaing this shit
muppethtom, imo all you do is shout some random shit, fueled by your frustration
tommaybe I think your capable of reason
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tomobviously not the case
muppethitsa very simple. you dont like gtk3, as you mentioned gtk2 is still supported. whats your problem?
muppethsomeone higher said he likes web stuff. you dont. whats the issue. develop/use non-web stuff. period
muppethI dont like propretary software nor apple/google/windows etc. I dont use it
muppethhow's that for a reason
tomthe problem is I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement, and I'm just met wet "just upgrade to gajim 1.x, oh you don't like gtk3? you must be some of of fuckhead then i'm right your wrong and stupid
tomgood luck with your impossible quest
tomI don't need you to fucking tell me to switch to fuckin wayland
muppethtom, thats why i said i dont know what the initial question was.
muppethtom, noone tells you to do anything afais
tomoh, were you not here for that conversation?
tomI'm sorry then, that wasn't for you
pep.tom: the specific issue with gajim is that the older versions don't support a ton of feature that are rather necessary nowadays. You might not like gtk3, but then you're cutting yourself from these other features and lose your rights to complain about them not existing (just like using pidgin nowadays is shooting yourself in the foot). You could make a gtk2 version of the newest branch of gajim maybe, or port these missing features in the older branch
tom> a ton of feature
WHAT FEAUTURES?
Holger> I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
HolgerThat's my answer to your question about which spec offers more reliable file transfer, yes.
tomso there's no way to fix peer to peer transfer on XMPP, it's just been replaced with http uploads?
HolgerI *think* that plugin should even work with 0.16 so maybe there's actually nothing to do besides installing it?
Holgertom: Well p2p is hard(er) to make reliable.
tomcan it be?
tomlet me rephrase
HolgerMost clients basically replace it with upload yes. Not just because reliability but also to make it work with offline peers, multi-device setups, and group chat.
tomif implementing perfectly by the spec, can p2p transfer be made to be reliable?
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HolgerI agree it's not exactly elegant but the fact that it just works is kinda nice.
tomsure
Holgertom: The problem is that there's multiple specs and incompatible revisions of those in the wild. Plus the limitations I mentioned above.
Holgertom: Apart from that I think it can be made reliable, yes.
tomhmm.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html says it's still only draft
HolgerYeah if you take the XEP status seriously you can basically forget about XMPP.
HolgerFor p2p you'd do XEP-0234 these days which is 'Deferred'.
tomhmm. Looks like i'm going to have to switch XMPP providers to get that to work
tomnot a huge deal, I've been looking to host my own for a while now
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Ge0rGHaha, I'm not the only one grumpy about the Gnome CADT model and all the new shit that's working differently from the old shit that I know to operate.
Ge0rGBTW, hosting your own XMPP server is the first thing to be actually on-topic in this room
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HolgerI don't quite get why everyone is mourning for the Gnome2 UI. It's just Windows 95 and there's still plenty (most?) DEs doing just that.
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Ge0rGI think the problem is Gnome 3 with its opaque buttons where you have no way to find out what they do short of clicking and looking
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Ge0rGpatched away the full-screen shit with some LD_PRELOAD black magic, but it's still fugly
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HolgerHmmm. Dunno I chose Gnome 3 as the first DE for my little son and he seems to cope just fine.
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HolgerNot sure what buttons you mean exactly. There aren't many in the first place :-)
Holger(And on-topic is overrated.)
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HolgerWhatever, I don't care at all what others use. I'm just happy the GNOME people tried something else because I think there's still plenty old-school DEs if you prefer those.
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Ge0rGis running fluxbox which is based on blackbox which is ancient.
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HolgerAh I used that myself one or two decades ago :-)
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muppethHolger, agree. I like gnome because its different. I used pretty much everything out there from fluxbox, xfce, kde, through awesomeWM and i3. I just deployed Gnome3 desktops at work and i was amazed by the reaction from normal non-tech folk that find it super comfortable to use. some even say its better then MacOS and i start recieving windows laptops form them (and now some of their friends that saw it) asking if I would "load" that linux thing on their personal computers.
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muppethso i guess gnome is doing something right. its not for everyone but so isnt Mate or tilling window manager
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tomthank you for your help Holger
tommuppeth, I think that's the problem. GNOME3 and gtk3 alienate 'tech folk' in favor of computer illiterates when their previous userbase is power users
muppethtom, totally disagree. I consider mysefl power user. I used tilling window manager exclusively for over 10 years. I moved to gnome now, being still power user
muppethi do undertsand people want to use tilling managers still
tomheh
Ge0rGeverything is one huge tile in gnome3! :D
muppethi dont uderstand how using a DE make me less of a power user?! I use terminal for work. tbh most of the time i dont even need XServer to do my work
tomI find myself doing to opposite, slowly moving more and more into tiling managers because i'm being alienated by gnome
tomnot because I like tiling
tombecause I can't find another option
tomI"ve moved from gnome2 to matte, then they went gtk3
tomthen to xfce
tomthen they went gtk3
muppethmaybe because gtk3 is better
tomthen to i3wm because I'm not sure whereless to go
Holgertom: I understand how the GNOME transition was painful and alienated parts of the existing user base, but I totally appreciate *some* DE project targetting "computer illiterates" so I have something good to offer them.
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tomthere was already a project that targeted computer illiterates, and I don't see why gnome had to alienate it's own users to switch target userbases
HolgerBut yes if it's about avoiding GTK+ 3 I see your problem. Qt not an option?
tomhttps://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US
pep.People are almost never happy with change anyway, what's good for one is going to annoy the other. I'm fine if I'm not GNOME's target user anymore (or never was), I just don't use it
muppethbut what is your problem really. gnome poeple wanted to do something and they did. according to your logic, software cannot change because there is this tom guy and he wont like it.
Holgertom: Well I think it's hard to build a single piece of software that makes both power users and illiterates happy.
tomqt is not as bad as gtk3, but it's still a downgrade. It also has no support for C
tomalso the file picker
muppethHolger, why? gnome3 or kde does just that. it makes non-tech and tech people happy.
tomdoesn't worker nearly as well as the one in gtk2 does
Ge0rGWhoever is using C as a UI language, deserves all the resulting pain
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tommuppeth, no, kde is hard to justify in that case.
muppethjust some poeple dont like it for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure there is a DE that fits them too and if it doesmt, well time to write your own tom
tomKDE pissed people off soo bad and much that they went and created the Trinity Desktop Envrioment
tomin the kde3 -> kde4 transition
muppethtom which people?! all 5 of them?>
Ge0rGhow many greybeard linux nerds do you need to write a Desktop Environment?
tommuppeth, cut the smartass unhelpful remarks
tomI'm trying to have a conversation
muppethtom, my remarks are no different then your whining. you blame decissions made by gnome team from your perspective.
muppethwhats the point of this 'conversation'?
muppethwhine that everyone
tom>[05:10:18 AM] muppeth: tom which people?! all 5 of them?>
>[05:06:01 AM] muppeth: maybe because gtk3 is better
muppethwhine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?
tom>[05:11:35 AM] muppeth: whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?
muppethtom, as you pointed out everyone moves to gtk3. it means it must be good right?
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tomyour attempting to derail to conversation
Ge0rGtom: you are derailing the conversation for hours now.
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Ge0rGThis is the XMPP Operators Room. It is about XMPP Operators.
Holgermuppeth: In the context of window managers I'd call "power users" those who want a high amount of configurability/flexibility/extensibility and/or powerful features that aren't necessarily intuitive (i.e. tiling WMs or so).
Holgermuppeth: In general I think offering more powerful UI often conflicts with intuitiveness because it requires a steeper learning curve.
Ge0rGtom: you lost the remains of your credibility when you told Link Mauve to f*** themselves.
tommuppeth, your rude
muppethHolger, yes. exactly. check dconf (very unintuitive, anti-userfirendly) tool to change every single bit of your gnome experience 😛 very power user frioendly 🙂
Holgermuppeth: Hence I think it's often hard to make both target audiences happy in one go.
muppethtom, I'm rude? I got active in here because i saw your insults towards others here.
Holgermuppeth: Nah dconf doesn't allow me to turn GNOME 3 into i3.
muppethHolger, i think its a good balance. non-power users have very little options to get overwhelmed or screw up with, while other can change every single piece. not to mention you can hook it all up to ansible and manage/configure every aspect on every desktop you administer.
muppethHolger, but also i3 doesnt allow you to become gnome. there are restrictions, although the tiling functionalities in gnome are getting interesting lately, so soon you will actually be able tyo make gnome into i3 while not the other way around 😛
muppethanyway as i said there are no bad DE/WM just different expectations of poeple, and its nice that you acctually have choice.
Ge0rGCan we please get Poettering into here to discuss the merits of gnome3?
tomIf you ask me all this shit is just the Extend in Embrace Extend Exterminate
tomand about non-power users have very little options
tomnon-power users have Windows and Mac OSX
tomand they have https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US
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tomWhy is the so much of a concern to write software for computer illiterates anyways?
Ge0rGtom: because most users are computer illiterates
tomWhy are a lot of developers writing software for computer illiterates instead of themselves out of being paid to do it?
Ge0rGtom: the right question would be: why are so many developers writing software for computer illiterates, despite lacking the required skills?
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tomno, I'm asking why they would want to be going through all the effort of writing software for someone else with different interests and abilities while not even being paid to do it
Licaon_Ktertom: because devs won't have work to do....?
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tomif that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?
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Holger> if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?
My impression is that's still the case for most spare-time devs.
Ge0rGI'm a spare-time dev writing software for other people.
HolgerYou're different!
HolgerAnother impression is that there fraction of few software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.
Ge0rGDamn.
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HolgerAnother impression is that there fraction of free software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.
HolgerSo it's more driven by profitability these days.
tomhm
Ge0rGNot all of my software is profitable.
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HolgerYou're different!
tomGe0rG is?
tomwhy?
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Ge0rGtom: I am why what?
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tom> Holger: You're different!
Ge0rGtom: apparently because I'm writing software for normal people, and because not all of my software is profitable
tombut that's what Holger was saying your different from yes?
tomHolger, what you care to clarify?
HolgerGe0rG is working on an XMPP client that targets normal end-users in his spare time. And my impression is that this is a somewhat uncommon case.
HolgerOr maybe somewhat specific to the XMPP/chat field. Where you have an interested to chat with others, possibly with illiterates. Which requires software that's usable by them.
Ge0rGchat with illiterates! \o/
Holger:-)
tomby normal you mean computer illiterate right?
HolgerYes.
tomk
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tomIf I might make a reccomendation
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tomif you could make a stripped down xmpp client that only works in google chrome
tomas a 'web app'
Ge0rGit's called converse.js :P
muppethtom, I dont understand your argument. I'm not computer illiterate and i do like for example gnome. I have a feeling for you software for non-illetirates must look like its still 90s or something.
tommost computer illiterates don't know how to use software and think that installing programs gives them viruses
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tomthey do everything from a google chrome. just look at email
muppethtom, not true. I run a platform that provides services to people and you would be suprised how many 'illiterate' people actually use it while you would think its only for the elitist power users.
muppethworld isnt 0 or 1
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muppethi know few 'illiterate' people what use old xfce. not because they are power users that dont like change, but because they are used to their old wondows95 UI
tomif your looking for adoption, that might be the way to go
muppethyour preference for software does not make you better then others.
muppethor software better then the other
vanitasvitaeIn my opinion computer illiterates should simply stay away from computers.
tomI fully agree with vanitasvitae on this one, but unfortunately that's not going to happen
vanitasvitaeYou should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.
tomwell maybe, if you can isolate computer illiterates to smartphones that might work
vanitasvitaeNonono
vanitasvitaeSmartphones are computers as well
vanitasvitaeEven lightswitches are, depending on the scientific model you use.
Ge0rG> You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.
Nobody does that. Please turn off your computers immediately and become a potato farmer.
tomabout the chrome-only webapp thing, that's actually a fairly popular thing. Thats the enture premis of ChromeOS
tomYou don't have a computer, you just have a netbook that only runs a web browser
Ge0rGtom: https://inverse.chat
vanitasvitaeGe0rG: lets collapse society!
tomyeah, that doesn't even do anything but render a solid blue page in my browser ,even with javascript and cookies enabled
Ge0rGvanitasvitae: it was your premise. I'm perfectly fine using tech I don't understand
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muppethvanitasvitae, still it doesnt mean my workspace cannot look nice and needs to look like shit crafted in mid 90s. i still dont see how is gnome / gtk3 made for illiterates and hated universally by everyone that knows a bit of how stuff works.
vanitasvitae"Mom, you're not a full stack developer? No Candy Crush for you!" Simple as that!
muppethhahahaha
vanitasvitaeI hope by now its obvious that my statement was not meant serious :D
muppethits more of a response to tom then to you vanitasvitae i think
muppeththough candy crash should be made illegal
vanitasvitaeI'm with you on that point ;)
tomIs there any reason the Prosody website recommends installing Prosody from Ports instead of Packages for OpenBSD?
MattJProbably because someone familiar with OpenBSD told us to put that there
tomI'll take that advice then
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tomIs there any reason to put the muc on a seperate subdomain?
tomor can you put the muc on the same domain as the main server, for example xmpp.domain.tld instead of xmpp.domain.tld and muc.domain.tld
tomor conference.domain.tld
Ge0rGtom: some clients will expect that, or confuse things when MUCs are not separate
Ge0rGtom: btw you shouldn't have "xmpp" or "jabber" in your xmpp domain, use SRV records for your main domain instead
tomsorry?
tomthanks
Ge0rGtom: when a client receives a carbon copy of a MUC-PM message it needs to check whether it's a MUC or not, and a set of clients will revert to checking that on the domain
Ge0rGI'm sure now that I've said "carbon copy of a MUC-PM message" you understand the problem.
tomso it's better to put in on it's own subdomain for buggy clients?
Ge0rGit's better to put them on their own domain because of an oversight in the protocol.
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lagGe0rG: really? This is how I've been using, xmpp.example.tld with A record and an SRV record to xmpp.example.tld. What kind of problems can arise?
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Ge0rGlag: it's not a problem, it's just a remnant of the old times when you didn't have SRV records to allow using your normal email address as a JID as well
tomI wish it was possible to use nextcloud FIDs be the same as emails too
tom(federated id)
Ge0rGyou can have that with xmpp for 20 years now.
tomnextcloud is fairly new
Ge0rGyes, and they went to reinveng messaging.
Ge0rGbecause there isn't enough messaging already with xmpp and matrix.
tomthey did?
Ge0rGas far as I understood, yes
Ge0rGand then they realized people want federation, and were like: ugh what? how? what now?
tomDouble check that, Nextcloud is more of a file/calender collaboration suite
Ge0rGIIRC it's called "nextcloud talk"
tomThey have a video chat, but I think that's only for people who you need to talk to but like only have skype or something
tomI remember there being a plugin somewhere for xmpp integration, but really nextcloud is more of a file and calender sync service
Ge0rGI can only keep up with so many messaging silos.
Ge0rGask me about XMPP.
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tomok
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tomyour have any experience with mod_onions and mod_darknet ?
Ge0rGno. I think that if you are into zero-metadata comms, you should use a protocol designed for that, like briar
tomno, it's more about stopping illegal dragnet mass survailance
XMPP Service Operators - 2019-03-29