XMPP Service Operators - 2019-03-29


  1. xsteadfastx has left

  2. xsteadfastx has joined

  3. sol has joined

  4. peter has joined

  5. sol has left

  6. sol has joined

  7. Jonny has left

  8. andrey.utkin has left

  9. bowlofeggs has left

  10. Jonny has joined

  11. pea has left

  12. peter has left

  13. pea has joined

  14. Jonny has left

  15. Jonny has joined

  16. pea has left

  17. debacle has left

  18. sol has left

  19. sol has joined

  20. lag has left

  21. lag has joined

  22. pea has joined

  23. muppeth has left

  24. muppeth has joined

  25. ibikk has left

  26. peter has joined

  27. peter has left

  28. pea has left

  29. holger has left

  30. oli has joined

  31. tom has left

  32. tom has joined

  33. kmq has left

  34. sol has left

  35. sol has joined

  36. xsteadfastx has left

  37. xsteadfastx has joined

  38. pea has joined

  39. xsteadfastx has left

  40. xsteadfastx has joined

  41. muppeth has left

  42. muppeth has joined

  43. mimi89999 has joined

  44. pea has left

  45. pea has joined

  46. xsteadfastx has left

  47. xsteadfastx has joined

  48. Jonny has left

  49. Jonny has joined

  50. pea has left

  51. pea has joined

  52. bowlofeggs has joined

  53. mrtooby has left

  54. alex has joined

  55. sol has left

  56. sol has joined

  57. xsteadfastx has left

  58. xsteadfastx has joined

  59. pea has left

  60. pea has joined

  61. xsteadfastx has left

  62. xsteadfastx has joined

  63. pea has left

  64. pea has joined

  65. pea has left

  66. pea has joined

  67. xsteadfastx has left

  68. xsteadfastx has joined

  69. pea has left

  70. xsteadfastx has left

  71. xsteadfastx has joined

  72. xsteadfastx has left

  73. xsteadfastx has joined

  74. xsteadfastx has left

  75. xsteadfastx has joined

  76. oli has left

  77. holger has joined

  78. pea has joined

  79. Maranda has left

  80. Maranda has joined

  81. ibikk has joined

  82. xsteadfastx has left

  83. xsteadfastx has joined

  84. pea has left

  85. sol has left

  86. integrationsfigur has joined

  87. pea has joined

  88. Maranda has left

  89. Maranda has joined

  90. an has left

  91. an has joined

  92. pea has left

  93. pea has joined

  94. xsteadfastx has left

  95. xsteadfastx has joined

  96. meaz has joined

  97. pea has left

  98. pea has joined

  99. muppeth has left

  100. muppeth has joined

  101. sol has joined

  102. xsteadfastx has left

  103. xsteadfastx has joined

  104. sol has left

  105. sol has joined

  106. Jonny has left

  107. Jonny has joined

  108. Jonny has left

  109. Jonny has joined

  110. xsteadfastx has left

  111. xsteadfastx has joined

  112. oli has joined

  113. mrtooby has joined

  114. kmq has joined

  115. Licaon_Kter has left

  116. pod has joined

  117. holger has left

  118. holger has joined

  119. bowlofeggs has left

  120. holger has left

  121. holger has joined

  122. kmq has left

  123. kmq has joined

  124. xsteadfastx has left

  125. xsteadfastx has joined

  126. oli has left

  127. oli has joined

  128. muppeth has left

  129. muppeth has joined

  130. xsteadfastx has left

  131. xsteadfastx has joined

  132. kmq has left

  133. alacer has joined

  134. kmq has joined

  135. mrtooby has left

  136. pea has left

  137. xsteadfastx has left

  138. xsteadfastx has joined

  139. pea has joined

  140. mimi89999 has left

  141. mimi89999 has joined

  142. oli has left

  143. oli has joined

  144. pea has left

  145. kmq has left

  146. xsteadfastx has left

  147. xsteadfastx has joined

  148. meaz has left

  149. kmq has joined

  150. muppeth has left

  151. muppeth has joined

  152. Jonny has left

  153. Jonny has joined

  154. xsteadfastx has left

  155. xsteadfastx has joined

  156. ThibG has left

  157. ThibG has joined

  158. pea has joined

  159. muppeth has left

  160. muppeth has joined

  161. pea has left

  162. Licaon_Kter has joined

  163. sol has left

  164. sol has joined

  165. Neustradamus has left

  166. Neustradamus has joined

  167. tom

    Is there any way to increase file transfer reliability?

  168. tom

    file transfers with my friend keep failing

  169. Martin has joined

  170. mightyBroccoli

    Could you be more specific? Error code or the failure message displayed from the client?

  171. alacer has left

  172. Licaon_Kter

    tom: server? Server software? Client?

  173. tom

    Gajim 0.16.9 sending to Gajim 0.16.6 server is.... hold on

  174. tom

    whatever 404.city is on and....

  175. Licaon_Kter

    tom: oh....that Gajim is how many years old?

  176. Licaon_Kter

    Things have changed...

  177. tom

    Prosody

  178. tom

    Licaon_Kter, oh?

  179. tom

    I don't think there's a release of Gajim past 0.16.x that still supports gtk2

  180. Licaon_Kter

    Yeah, eg that upload namespace thing

  181. Licaon_Kter

    tom: eh....

  182. tom

    If you can tell me what's wrong I could probably figure out how to patch Gajim 0.16 myself

  183. xsteadfastx has left

  184. xsteadfastx has joined

  185. tom

    My friend is also stuck on Gajim 0.16.x because of the forced gtk+3 and he's a programmer as well.

  186. oli has left

  187. tom

    Licaon_Kter, what's up?

  188. Licaon_Kter

    tom: error logs?

  189. xsteadfastx has left

  190. xsteadfastx has joined

  191. tom

    uhm.. let me check

  192. tom

    strange

  193. tom

    Does Gajim have error logs somewhere? or are you talking about server logs

  194. tom

    are you still with me Licaon_Kter ?

  195. Licaon_Kter

    tom: I dunno the answer...hence....

  196. tom

    ok

  197. tom

    I'll keep looking into it, so far it just show a X icon next to the failed trasfers. Not very descriptive

  198. xsteadfastx has left

  199. xsteadfastx has joined

  200. Link Mauve

    tom, you should update, the 0.16 branch is abandonned, and so is gtk2.

  201. Link Mauve

    And there are many features which have been added in 1.0 and later, such as more failure-proof file transfer.

  202. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  203. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  204. Link Mauve

    Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depend on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^

  205. pea has joined

  206. pea has left

  207. xsteadfastx has left

  208. xsteadfastx has joined

  209. tom

    gtk2 isn't abandoned, it still receives patches, if if that were to change I will patch it should a need arise

  210. pea has joined

  211. pea has left

  212. tom

    and gtk3 is not a generic toolkit, it's the gnome graphical toolkit

  213. pea has joined

  214. tom

    it's also optimized for tablets, not computers.

  215. pea has left

  216. tom

    and it isn't stable

  217. pea has joined

  218. pea has left

  219. tom

    I'd much rather fork Gajim 0.16 if nobody else is going to

  220. tom

    backport useful features

  221. tom

    gtk3 is so unusable to me that the effort required to backport and maintain 0.16.x is worth the effort for me

  222. tom

    even spending money to pay for development help

  223. Link Mauve

    tom, gtk3 will not see any newer minor version, only patch releases, that is the Debian definition of “stable”.

  224. Link Mauve

    It also is definitely not “optimised” more for tablets than for anything else.

  225. Link Mauve

    And yet also, not targetting GNOME in the slightest, there are just people involved in both projects.

  226. tom

    I've used the 1.x release

  227. tom

    of gajim

  228. Jonny has left

  229. tom

    and it's probably the worst release i've ever used ui wise

  230. tom

    now if there is another jabber client out there that you'd recommend that doesn't force gtk+3 and doesn't fall for whatever the latest UI fads are and that isn't based on nodejs I would like to know

  231. Link Mauve

    Please open issues for things which could be improved.

  232. Link Mauve

    tom, hmm, maybe look for the Qt ones?

  233. Link Mauve

    Swift for instance, or Kaidan, or JabberCat.

  234. tom

    Link Mauve, I don't think Gajim wants to improve. I took some of my concerns to their muc and they just insulted me

  235. Link Mauve

    Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS.

  236. Link Mauve

    Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS at runtime.

  237. tom

    I also don't see a valid reason for switching off of gtk2

  238. Link Mauve

    tom, I’m pretty sure it does.

  239. Link Mauve

    tom, oh, there is a very valid one: it isn’t supported by anyone.

  240. tom

    Well I will take your word for and and open a ticket

  241. tom

    Link Mauve, What do you mean supported?

  242. Link Mauve

    If your suggestion is just “switch from gtk3 to gtk2”, of course nobody will do that.

  243. Link Mauve

    But if you have valid UI or UX concerns, that’s relevant.

  244. Link Mauve

    tom, no one is pouring time to fix or improve gtk2 anymore.

  245. tom

    what is there to fix?

  246. Link Mauve

    Really?

  247. Link Mauve

    Have a look at all of the reasons for gtk3’s existence. :)

  248. Link Mauve

    The main one for me was Wayland support.

  249. Link Mauve

    gtk3’s is damn good.

  250. Link Mauve

    gtk2’s, well, inexistant.

  251. tom

    the last patch to gtk2 was 14 days ago

  252. tom

    commit c505d3f what do you mean not supported?

  253. tom

    also, what reasons for gtk3's existance?

  254. tom

    wayland isn't even stable yet, and doesn't work on the BSDs

  255. Link Mauve

    Look at the release notes if you aren’t aware of it.

  256. tom

    and X11 forwarding over SSH doesn't work on wayland

  257. Link Mauve

    tom, erm, can you please stop with the false accusations please? Wayland has been stable since 2012 and has worked on any system with UNIX sockets and shared memory.

  258. Link Mauve

    tom, it sure does, as long as your compositor provides an Xwayland integration (and all do, to my knowledge).

  259. Licaon_Kter

    This escalated fast....

  260. tom

    really? I didn't know

  261. tom

    Does wayland work on OpeBSD?

  262. Link Mauve

    tom, sure.

  263. Link Mauve

    I mean, it certainly has unix sockets, and shared memory support, as it exposes a POSIX API.

  264. tom

    So, as a person who has used X for a decade and has not had a problem with it, why would I want to use Wayland instead? and Why do most operating systems not ship with Wayland, but X instead?

  265. Link Mauve

    Some compositors may have additional requirements, such as OpenGL support for rendering, or udev for input, but at least when I had to run Weston on FreeBSD for a client that was working.

  266. Jonny has joined

  267. pea has joined

  268. pea has left

  269. Link Mauve

    tom, personally, it was because I was tired of tearing happening all the time, and because of the complete isolation between processes, as well as the very simple and easy to understand and to extend protocol.

  270. pea has joined

  271. tom

    I'm certainly not going to go ahead and install Wayland just to run a graphical toolkit that has not yet even justified it's existance over gtk2 that I don't even like

  272. pea has left

  273. pea has joined

  274. pea has left

  275. tom

    I've never experience tearing. Are you sure that wasn't just a graphics driver causing tearing?

  276. xsteadfastx has left

  277. xsteadfastx has joined

  278. Link Mauve

    For instance I wanted to add quad-buffering support to a 3DS emulator, because that sounded like fun to be able to run its stereoscopic capabilities on a big 3DTV or VR device, and that was pretty much impossible on X11.

  279. Link Mauve

    tom, it’s a combinaison of many things, Xorg being single-buffered being one.

  280. pea has joined

  281. pea has left

  282. pea has joined

  283. pea has left

  284. tom

    I am personally running 2 monitors, one of them being a 144Hz and 1080p while the other being 1900x800 at 60hz.

  285. pea has joined

  286. pea has left

  287. pea has joined

  288. pea has left

  289. pea has joined

  290. pea has left

  291. tom

    I don't experience any tearing besides what on the 60hz one if I play a videogame on it without vsync, but that's the monitor's fault. it's a cheapo unit and does that across any os

  292. pea has joined

  293. pea has left

  294. Link Mauve

    I’m pretty sure it isn’t due to the monitor, try it with Wayland for instance.

  295. xsteadfastx has left

  296. xsteadfastx has joined

  297. pea has joined

  298. Link Mauve

    I also had a lot of misconceptions before getting deep into the graphics stack. ^^

  299. pea has left

  300. pea has joined

  301. pea has left

  302. tom

    I can see process screen isolation being a useful feature if it doesn't break things like window managers, oneko, and such

  303. pea has joined

  304. pea has left

  305. tom

    but other than that, I don't really see how that only justifies a huge compatibility breaking change like that

  306. Link Mauve

    Of course it prevents your window manager from running, and oneko would have to be a priviledged client or part of the compositor.

  307. tom

    that doens't sound very good

  308. Link Mauve

    But it’s becoming very simple to build a full compositor by writing only code that you would write for window management before, with libraries like wlroots.

  309. Link Mauve

    So it’s only a matter that people were targetting Xlib only, and now have to target either Xlib or wlroots or both.

  310. tom

    so other than wayland compatibility, (which I don't see has justified or being worth the hassle) why else would someone want to switch to gtk3?

  311. Link Mauve

    Depending on whether they want full control over the display mechanisms, or if they want to delegate that to Xorg.

  312. Link Mauve

    In the latter case, they can’t support Wayland.

  313. Link Mauve

    tom, have you just made the effort of opening the release notes or design plan of GTK+ 3.0?

  314. Link Mauve

    If not, then there is no point to this discussion.

  315. tom

    https://lwn.net/Articles/300303/

  316. tom

    qrong link

  317. pea has joined

  318. pea has left

  319. pea has joined

  320. pea has left

  321. xsteadfastx has left

  322. xsteadfastx has joined

  323. tom

    I can only find the release notes for gnome3

  324. pea has joined

  325. pea has left

  326. pea has joined

  327. pea has left

  328. pea has joined

  329. pea has left

  330. tom

    would you provide a link?

  331. pea has joined

  332. pea has left

  333. pea has joined

  334. pea has left

  335. pea has joined

  336. pea has left

  337. pea has joined

  338. pea has left

  339. Link Mauve

    tom, second result on ddg: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2011-February/msg00022.html

  340. andrey.utkin has joined

  341. tom

    basing the theming api on CSS is a horrible idea

  342. debacle has joined

  343. Ge0rG

    let's build on the shoulders of giants?

  344. pea has joined

  345. Link Mauve

    Note that that’s only the 3.0 release, not everything was done by then so the following releases added a lot of missing pieces, while always keeping it ABI compatible.

  346. pea has left

  347. pea has joined

  348. pea has left

  349. tom

    dbus integration is also a horrible idea. dbus sucks

  350. Link Mauve

    tom, I don’t see what’s wrong with it, most designers these days are used to CSS for apparence.

  351. pea has joined

  352. tom

    just because something is popular doesn't make it good

  353. pea has left

  354. xsteadfastx has left

  355. xsteadfastx has joined

  356. pea has joined

  357. pea has left

  358. tom

    also, what was wrong with the privious theming api?

  359. tom

    *previous

  360. pea has joined

  361. pea has left

  362. pea has joined

  363. Link Mauve

    Most likely, that it wasn’t popular enough, so random passerbys had to learn an entirely new language to theme their application or DE.

  364. pea has left

  365. Link Mauve

    But that’s a thing better asked to GTK+ people from 2008.

  366. pea has joined

  367. pea has left

  368. Link Mauve

    I can only speculate on their intentions.

  369. pea has joined

  370. pea has left

  371. lag has left

  372. lag has joined

  373. tom

    there were and are plenty of great gtk2 themes already out there

  374. Link Mauve

    Although this change seems to have panned well.

  375. pea has joined

  376. pea has left

  377. tom

    also, learning how to use your tools is just a fact of life

  378. pea has joined

  379. pea has left

  380. pea has joined

  381. tom

    regarding the last relase note, added an application chooser, I have a perfectly fine gtk2 based application chooser that didn't require a whole major release number to implement

  382. pea has left

  383. Link Mauve

    tom, so what good does it give to have to learn two different languages, to make web applications and GTK+ applications, while it could be a single one?

  384. pea has joined

  385. pea has left

  386. tom

    https://0x0.st/zPsZ.png

  387. pea has joined

  388. pea has left

  389. tom

    because there is a difference between web applications and programs

  390. tom

    that line should not be blurred

  391. Link Mauve

    Eww, Flash.

  392. pea has joined

  393. pea has left

  394. Link Mauve

    That’s a thing I haven’t used in a decade.

  395. pea has joined

  396. pea has left

  397. Link Mauve

    tom, using CSS for theming is hardly “blurring” anything.

  398. Link Mauve

    And why should it not, btw?

  399. pea has joined

  400. pea has left

  401. Link Mauve

    Some other toolkits like Qt went much further with the integration of web technologies, integrating a JavaScript engine, CSS, QtQuick, and even Chromium for their web needs.

  402. tom

    when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine

  403. tom

    and Javascript is a terrible terrible language. It always was even from the beginning

  404. tom

    You can polish poop but at the end up the day it's still a peice of shit

  405. tom

    the compatibility breaking change of using css for theming does not justify itself in a cost to gain ratio. the gtk2 theming api is perfectly expressive enough for what it does and simple enough too

  406. tom

    I've made and modified my own gtk2 themes, i'm not talking out of my ass here

  407. tom

    >tom‎: when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine sorry, something happened here. I meant to say: when you attempt to blue the line of web browser and programs, you end of turning a markup renderer into a bloated, virtual machine

  408. tom

    *blur

  409. debacle has left

  410. tom

    does that answer your question?

  411. tom

    just to give you an example of the bloat of the fallacies that have brought us "web 2.0" firefox 52 (even before you had to compile rust to compile firefox) took and still takes longer than GCC to compile

  412. pea has joined

  413. pea has left

  414. tom

    GCC used to be the most bloated and longest to compile thing of the entire operating system

  415. pea has joined

  416. pea has left

  417. tom

    >* More flexible geometry management, with support for height-for-width, for both widgets and cell renderers. Why did a compatibility breaking change be needed to implement this?

  418. tom

    * Modern input device handling. The input device handling in GDK has long been a sadly neglected area. This has changed; with 3.0, GTK+ steps into the modern world of XI2 with full support for multiple pointers, keyboards and other gizmos. Sounds like a GDK problem not a GTK problem. Just patch gdk

  419. alacer has joined

  420. Link Mauve

    Sorry I was doing something else.

  421. tom

    no problem

  422. Martin has left

  423. Link Mauve

    But a compatibility break eleven years ago, with a lot of other things required to change, has long since given benefits.

  424. Link Mauve

    The gtk2 theming API is just an artifact from the past nowadays.

  425. tom

    WHAT BENEFITS?

  426. Link Mauve

    tom, but I wasn’t arguing for bloating the web, it already does that on its own perfectly well, I was talking about using the useful parts of it, familiar to many, to make your own software more familiar.

  427. Link Mauve

    tom, see, I’m a random who only knows HTML and some CSS, I want to change some visual things in my IM client.

  428. Link Mauve

    Now, with gtk3 I can just apply my preexisting knowledge.

  429. tom

    yes, and I'm saying maybe so (i doubt it though) but that doesn't justify breaking everything to change it

  430. Link Mauve

    With gtk2, I’d simply be demoralised away by having to learn yet another language.

  431. tom

    well that's your own fault

  432. Link Mauve

    tom, the break happened for many other reasons, your gtk2 themes wouldn’t have been compatible with gtk3 even if they kept the language.

  433. Link Mauve

    tom, sure, you can blame the user.

  434. Link Mauve

    You can also accept criticism and aim for a more user-friendly experience.

  435. tom

    being demoralized from having to learn new stuff is

  436. Link Mauve

    I’ve met a lot of people identifying as web developers, who outright reject the idea to learn anything else.

  437. Link Mauve

    And they can live perfectly well.

  438. Link Mauve

    Same for Java developers, same for C developers, same for Python developers.

  439. tom

    that's why they are web developers

  440. tom

    and you can stay in in a bubble

  441. Link Mauve

    Yes, that’s in their self-description. What does it bring to cut yourself from these people in order to undo an eleven years old language change?

  442. Link Mauve

    With the hingsight, it’s only brought nice things.

  443. tom

    what? I don't understand your metaphors

  444. Link Mauve

    tom, there is no metaphor here.

  445. tom

    no one is self mutilating

  446. pea has joined

  447. pea has left

  448. tom

    and years of constant breakage and instability is not a nice thing

  449. pea has joined

  450. pea has left

  451. tom

    also completely abandoning decades of UI research for hamburger buttons is not a nice thing

  452. pep.

    Heh, still arguing about using gtk2? :p

  453. Ge0rG

    Mhm... Hamburgers!

  454. tom

    a button for buttons

  455. Link Mauve

    tom, “cut yourself out” means making a clear separation between you and a given set of people in English.

  456. Link Mauve

    tom, that’s an application developer decision, whether they put menus or other things.

  457. Link Mauve

    Nothing the toolkit can do for you.

  458. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, oh, good idea.

  459. Link Mauve

    I should have breakfast, and start packing, I leave in less than one hour.

  460. Link Mauve

    And get out of bed too.

  461. tom

    because if you want to enter a new field, you should learn the tools of the trade. NOt attempt to adapt tools of a different trade before learning the traditional way of doing things.

  462. tom

    at least learn from the more experienced before attempting to forge your own way

  463. tom

    I don't go get a job as a car mechanic and refuse to learn a wrench and attempt to use a keyboard to change my oil

  464. Link Mauve

    tom, but as a random user, do you want to enter a new field, or simply customise your chat client?

  465. Link Mauve

    Using a chat client should never have the same requirements as getting a job as a car mechanic.

  466. tom

    I want a XMPP client for my computers that doesn't have a phone client. Also, If I'm going to be upgrading I want the upgrade to at least be equivalent or slightly better than what I had before

  467. tom

    *phone interface

  468. Link Mauve

    Same for me, except I don’t care where the inspiration comes for the interface.

  469. tom

    I want a computer interface on my computer. not a tablet interface on my computer

  470. Link Mauve

    I mean, I use a client inspired by terminal IRC clients, of course I don’t. :D

  471. tom

    I also refuse to lose customizability I had before

  472. xsteadfastx has left

  473. xsteadfastx has joined

  474. tom

    for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels

  475. tom

    Gajim's 0.16.9 interface is probably the best IM interface I've ever used. Like ever

  476. tom

    then 1.x just completely throws it all out the window

  477. tom

    why?

  478. tom

    because windows are "old"

  479. tom

    not because what they are using now is better, but because popups and windows are "old"

  480. tom

    just because something is new doesn't make it better. and just because something is old doesn't make it worse

  481. Ge0rG

    focus-stealing popups always have been bad

  482. tom

    If nobody else is going to fix file transfer in Gajim 0.16.x I'll do it myself

  483. tom

    I would however appreciate some help in figuring out why exactly the issues are occuring in the fist place

  484. Link Mauve

    “10:54:10 tom> for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels”, great, all of those are customisable using *wait for it* CSS!

  485. Link Mauve

    tom, you can read the history between your latest commit and master.

  486. Link Mauve

    But be aware that it’s very long.

  487. Link Mauve

    And I wouldn’t advise doing that.

  488. pea has joined

  489. pea has left

  490. tom

    Why should I when gtk2 works absolutely fine?

  491. tom

    also the file picker in gtk2

  492. tom

    Nothing, not even the qt one comes close to it

  493. tom

    Can you show me a gtk3 theme that looks like gtk2?

  494. Link Mauve

    Raleigh?

  495. tom

    hmm. ok. I could use that as a middle ground in the meantime to fix the glaring ui design failures, but still, as with all my previous posts, the change to gtk3 is not justified in a cost to gain ratio

  496. Link Mauve

    With most software having moved, maintaining them all in an old version will only accumulate work.

  497. Link Mauve

    So, good luck in your impossible quest I guess.

  498. Link Mauve

    At some point maybe you’ll realise the cost to gain ratio is really not to your benefit.

  499. Link Mauve

    In the meantime, I’m going on weekend, see y’all next week! \o_

  500. debacle has joined

  501. pea has joined

  502. pea has left

  503. mimi89999 has left

  504. mimi89999 has joined

  505. xsteadfastx has left

  506. xsteadfastx has joined

  507. mati (jabber.at) has left

  508. mati (jabber.at) has joined

  509. tom has left

  510. tom has joined

  511. sol has left

  512. sol has joined

  513. Jonny has left

  514. Jonny has joined

  515. alacer has left

  516. alacer has joined

  517. pea has joined

  518. pea has left

  519. pea has joined

  520. pea has left

  521. madmalkav has joined

  522. mimi89999 has left

  523. tom

    Link Mauve, fuck you

  524. pep.

    :D

  525. tom

    I'm sick and tired of your passive agressiveness

  526. pep.

    I totally agree with Link Mauve (/me throws oil on the fire)

  527. tom

    why?

  528. pep.

    Maybe you should start a gtk2 support group for people traumatized with gtk3

  529. tom

    maybe you should stop being ass asshole

  530. pep.

    If you manage to gather enough people to maintain gtk2 it might become worth your time

  531. tom

    gtk2 is maintained, what are you talking about?

  532. tom

    the last patch was only 14 days ago

  533. tom

    are you actually asking or just trying to piss me off

  534. tom

    What really needs to happen is an anti-redhat group

  535. tom

    Every single thing to come out of redhat minus qemu patches and md has been a downgrade in the oss ecosystem

  536. tom

    dbus

  537. tom

    GNOME3

  538. tom

    consolekit

  539. tom

    PulseAudio

  540. tom

    FreeDesktop

  541. tom

    systemd

  542. xsteadfastx has left

  543. xsteadfastx has joined

  544. muppeth

    lol

  545. muppeth

    ansible

  546. tom

    that too

  547. muppeth

    hahahaha because manually configuring every single server is so much better

  548. tom

    Redhat's a special fucking snowflake and can't using a staging tarball like every other unix os

  549. muppeth is evil gnome user that actually likes the new changes so i stay away from this one

  550. tom

    noting wrong with gnome2

  551. tom

    I actually used to use it

  552. muppeth

    and i'm comming form 10+ yeasrs of using only tiling managers

  553. xsteadfastx has left

  554. xsteadfastx has joined

  555. muppeth

    tom i mean gnome3

  556. tom

    ok

  557. tom

    is there anyone here that agrees with me?

  558. Jonny has left

  559. muppeth

    i moved to gnome because they droppped what they were doing and decided to do something new (aka gtk/gnome3)

  560. Jonny has joined

  561. tom

    anyone at all?

  562. tom

    seriously, what the hell

  563. tom

    what the hell happened to the industry in the last 7 yeays]

  564. muppeth

    tom, i guess it moved on

  565. muppeth

    I dont see what your problem here is tbh

  566. tom

    why?

  567. mimi89999 has joined

  568. muppeth

    because as everything things move on

  569. tom

    Why is bloat and spyware the norm now?

  570. muppeth

    because people are borred of doing the same thing over and over again

  571. muppeth

    i dont know

  572. tom

    that's too general

  573. muppeth

    spyware?

  574. tom

    your just fucking with me

  575. muppeth

    where is the spyware in anything you mentioned?

  576. tom

    I'm trying to have a serious conversation about the stuff coming out of redhat and web not being good and all I get is assholes trying to derail

  577. tom

    like yourself

  578. tom

    I don't know why I spend the effort explaing this shit

  579. muppeth

    tom, imo all you do is shout some random shit, fueled by your frustration

  580. tom

    maybe I think your capable of reason

  581. mimi89999 has left

  582. tom

    obviously not the case

  583. muppeth

    itsa very simple. you dont like gtk3, as you mentioned gtk2 is still supported. whats your problem?

  584. muppeth

    someone higher said he likes web stuff. you dont. whats the issue. develop/use non-web stuff. period

  585. muppeth

    I dont like propretary software nor apple/google/windows etc. I dont use it

  586. muppeth

    how's that for a reason

  587. tom

    the problem is I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement, and I'm just met wet "just upgrade to gajim 1.x, oh you don't like gtk3? you must be some of of fuckhead then i'm right your wrong and stupid

  588. tom

    good luck with your impossible quest

  589. tom

    I don't need you to fucking tell me to switch to fuckin wayland

  590. muppeth

    tom, thats why i said i dont know what the initial question was.

  591. muppeth

    tom, noone tells you to do anything afais

  592. tom

    oh, were you not here for that conversation?

  593. tom

    I'm sorry then, that wasn't for you

  594. pep.

    tom: the specific issue with gajim is that the older versions don't support a ton of feature that are rather necessary nowadays. You might not like gtk3, but then you're cutting yourself from these other features and lose your rights to complain about them not existing (just like using pidgin nowadays is shooting yourself in the foot). You could make a gtk2 version of the newest branch of gajim maybe, or port these missing features in the older branch

  595. tom

    > a ton of feature WHAT FEAUTURES?

  596. Holger

    > I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html

  597. sol has left

  598. sol has joined

  599. Holger

    tom: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim-plugins/wikis/httpuploadplugin

  600. tom

    is that it?

  601. Holger

    That's my answer to your question about which spec offers more reliable file transfer, yes.

  602. tom

    so there's no way to fix peer to peer transfer on XMPP, it's just been replaced with http uploads?

  603. Holger

    I *think* that plugin should even work with 0.16 so maybe there's actually nothing to do besides installing it?

  604. Holger

    tom: Well p2p is hard(er) to make reliable.

  605. tom

    can it be?

  606. tom

    let me rephrase

  607. Holger

    Most clients basically replace it with upload yes. Not just because reliability but also to make it work with offline peers, multi-device setups, and group chat.

  608. tom

    if implementing perfectly by the spec, can p2p transfer be made to be reliable?

  609. pea has joined

  610. pea has left

  611. Holger

    I agree it's not exactly elegant but the fact that it just works is kinda nice.

  612. tom

    sure

  613. Holger

    tom: The problem is that there's multiple specs and incompatible revisions of those in the wild. Plus the limitations I mentioned above.

  614. Holger

    tom: Apart from that I think it can be made reliable, yes.

  615. tom

    hmm.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html says it's still only draft

  616. Holger

    Yeah if you take the XEP status seriously you can basically forget about XMPP.

  617. Holger

    For p2p you'd do XEP-0234 these days which is 'Deferred'.

  618. tom

    hmm. Looks like i'm going to have to switch XMPP providers to get that to work

  619. tom

    not a huge deal, I've been looking to host my own for a while now

  620. carlos has left

  621. carlos has joined

  622. Ge0rG

    Haha, I'm not the only one grumpy about the Gnome CADT model and all the new shit that's working differently from the old shit that I know to operate.

  623. Ge0rG

    BTW, hosting your own XMPP server is the first thing to be actually on-topic in this room

  624. pea has joined

  625. pea has left

  626. pea has joined

  627. pea has left

  628. pea has joined

  629. pea has left

  630. pea has joined

  631. pea has left

  632. Holger

    I don't quite get why everyone is mourning for the Gnome2 UI. It's just Windows 95 and there's still plenty (most?) DEs doing just that.

  633. pea has joined

  634. pea has left

  635. Ge0rG

    I think the problem is Gnome 3 with its opaque buttons where you have no way to find out what they do short of clicking and looking

  636. pea has joined

  637. pea has left

  638. Ge0rG patched away the full-screen shit with some LD_PRELOAD black magic, but it's still fugly

  639. pea has joined

  640. pea has left

  641. Holger

    Hmmm. Dunno I chose Gnome 3 as the first DE for my little son and he seems to cope just fine.

  642. pea has joined

  643. pea has left

  644. Holger

    Not sure what buttons you mean exactly. There aren't many in the first place :-)

  645. Holger

    (And on-topic is overrated.)

  646. pea has joined

  647. pea has left

  648. pea has joined

  649. pea has left

  650. pea has joined

  651. pea has left

  652. pea has joined

  653. pea has left

  654. pea has joined

  655. pea has left

  656. Holger

    Whatever, I don't care at all what others use. I'm just happy the GNOME people tried something else because I think there's still plenty old-school DEs if you prefer those.

  657. pea has joined

  658. pea has left

  659. pea has joined

  660. pea has left

  661. pea has joined

  662. pea has left

  663. pea has joined

  664. pea has left

  665. pea has joined

  666. pea has left

  667. pea has joined

  668. pea has left

  669. Ge0rG is running fluxbox which is based on blackbox which is ancient.

  670. pea has joined

  671. pea has left

  672. pea has joined

  673. pea has left

  674. Holger

    Ah I used that myself one or two decades ago :-)

  675. pea has joined

  676. pea has left

  677. pea has joined

  678. pea has left

  679. pea has joined

  680. pea has left

  681. pea has joined

  682. pea has left

  683. pea has joined

  684. pea has left

  685. pea has joined

  686. pea has left

  687. pea has joined

  688. pea has left

  689. pea has joined

  690. pea has left

  691. muppeth

    Holger, agree. I like gnome because its different. I used pretty much everything out there from fluxbox, xfce, kde, through awesomeWM and i3. I just deployed Gnome3 desktops at work and i was amazed by the reaction from normal non-tech folk that find it super comfortable to use. some even say its better then MacOS and i start recieving windows laptops form them (and now some of their friends that saw it) asking if I would "load" that linux thing on their personal computers.

  692. pea has joined

  693. pea has left

  694. muppeth

    so i guess gnome is doing something right. its not for everyone but so isnt Mate or tilling window manager

  695. pea has joined

  696. pea has left

  697. pea has joined

  698. pea has left

  699. pea has joined

  700. pea has left

  701. tom

    thank you for your help Holger

  702. tom

    muppeth, I think that's the problem. GNOME3 and gtk3 alienate 'tech folk' in favor of computer illiterates when their previous userbase is power users

  703. muppeth

    tom, totally disagree. I consider mysefl power user. I used tilling window manager exclusively for over 10 years. I moved to gnome now, being still power user

  704. muppeth

    i do undertsand people want to use tilling managers still

  705. tom

    heh

  706. Ge0rG

    everything is one huge tile in gnome3! :D

  707. muppeth

    i dont uderstand how using a DE make me less of a power user?! I use terminal for work. tbh most of the time i dont even need XServer to do my work

  708. tom

    I find myself doing to opposite, slowly moving more and more into tiling managers because i'm being alienated by gnome

  709. tom

    not because I like tiling

  710. tom

    because I can't find another option

  711. tom

    I"ve moved from gnome2 to matte, then they went gtk3

  712. tom

    then to xfce

  713. tom

    then they went gtk3

  714. muppeth

    maybe because gtk3 is better

  715. tom

    then to i3wm because I'm not sure whereless to go

  716. Holger

    tom: I understand how the GNOME transition was painful and alienated parts of the existing user base, but I totally appreciate *some* DE project targetting "computer illiterates" so I have something good to offer them.

  717. vanitasvitae has left

  718. tom

    there was already a project that targeted computer illiterates, and I don't see why gnome had to alienate it's own users to switch target userbases

  719. Holger

    But yes if it's about avoiding GTK+ 3 I see your problem. Qt not an option?

  720. tom

    https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US

  721. pep.

    People are almost never happy with change anyway, what's good for one is going to annoy the other. I'm fine if I'm not GNOME's target user anymore (or never was), I just don't use it

  722. muppeth

    but what is your problem really. gnome poeple wanted to do something and they did. according to your logic, software cannot change because there is this tom guy and he wont like it.

  723. Holger

    tom: Well I think it's hard to build a single piece of software that makes both power users and illiterates happy.

  724. tom

    qt is not as bad as gtk3, but it's still a downgrade. It also has no support for C

  725. tom

    also the file picker

  726. muppeth

    Holger, why? gnome3 or kde does just that. it makes non-tech and tech people happy.

  727. tom

    doesn't worker nearly as well as the one in gtk2 does

  728. Ge0rG

    Whoever is using C as a UI language, deserves all the resulting pain

  729. vanitasvitae has joined

  730. tom

    muppeth, no, kde is hard to justify in that case.

  731. muppeth

    just some poeple dont like it for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure there is a DE that fits them too and if it doesmt, well time to write your own tom

  732. tom

    KDE pissed people off soo bad and much that they went and created the Trinity Desktop Envrioment

  733. tom

    in the kde3 -> kde4 transition

  734. muppeth

    tom which people?! all 5 of them?>

  735. Ge0rG

    how many greybeard linux nerds do you need to write a Desktop Environment?

  736. tom

    muppeth, cut the smartass unhelpful remarks

  737. tom

    I'm trying to have a conversation

  738. muppeth

    tom, my remarks are no different then your whining. you blame decissions made by gnome team from your perspective.

  739. muppeth

    whats the point of this 'conversation'?

  740. muppeth

    whine that everyone

  741. tom

    >‎[05:10:18 AM] ‎muppeth‎: tom which people?! all 5 of them?> >‎[05:06:01 AM] ‎muppeth‎: maybe because gtk3 is better

  742. muppeth

    whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?

  743. tom

    >[05:11:35 AM] ‎muppeth‎: whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?

  744. muppeth

    tom, as you pointed out everyone moves to gtk3. it means it must be good right?

  745. pea has joined

  746. pea has left

  747. tom

    your attempting to derail to conversation

  748. Ge0rG

    tom: you are derailing the conversation for hours now.

  749. pea has joined

  750. pea has left

  751. Ge0rG

    This is the XMPP Operators Room. It is about XMPP Operators.

  752. Holger

    muppeth: In the context of window managers I'd call "power users" those who want a high amount of configurability/flexibility/extensibility and/or powerful features that aren't necessarily intuitive (i.e. tiling WMs or so).

  753. tom

    that doesn't justify muppeth's passive aggressive snipes

  754. Holger

    muppeth: In general I think offering more powerful UI often conflicts with intuitiveness because it requires a steeper learning curve.

  755. Ge0rG

    tom: you lost the remains of your credibility when you told Link Mauve to f*** themselves.

  756. tom

    muppeth, your rude

  757. muppeth

    Holger, yes. exactly. check dconf (very unintuitive, anti-userfirendly) tool to change every single bit of your gnome experience 😛 very power user frioendly 🙂

  758. Holger

    muppeth: Hence I think it's often hard to make both target audiences happy in one go.

  759. muppeth

    tom, I'm rude? I got active in here because i saw your insults towards others here.

  760. Holger

    muppeth: Nah dconf doesn't allow me to turn GNOME 3 into i3.

  761. muppeth

    Holger, i think its a good balance. non-power users have very little options to get overwhelmed or screw up with, while other can change every single piece. not to mention you can hook it all up to ansible and manage/configure every aspect on every desktop you administer.

  762. muppeth

    Holger, but also i3 doesnt allow you to become gnome. there are restrictions, although the tiling functionalities in gnome are getting interesting lately, so soon you will actually be able tyo make gnome into i3 while not the other way around 😛

  763. muppeth

    anyway as i said there are no bad DE/WM just different expectations of poeple, and its nice that you acctually have choice.

  764. Ge0rG

    Can we please get Poettering into here to discuss the merits of gnome3?

  765. tom

    If you ask me all this shit is just the Extend in Embrace Extend Exterminate

  766. tom

    and about non-power users have very little options

  767. tom

    non-power users have Windows and Mac OSX

  768. tom

    and they have https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US

  769. sol has left

  770. sol has joined

  771. pea has joined

  772. pea has left

  773. pea has joined

  774. pea has left

  775. tom

    Why is the so much of a concern to write software for computer illiterates anyways?

  776. Ge0rG

    tom: because most users are computer illiterates

  777. tom

    Why are a lot of developers writing software for computer illiterates instead of themselves out of being paid to do it?

  778. Ge0rG

    tom: the right question would be: why are so many developers writing software for computer illiterates, despite lacking the required skills?

  779. holger has left

  780. tom

    no, I'm asking why they would want to be going through all the effort of writing software for someone else with different interests and abilities while not even being paid to do it

  781. Licaon_Kter

    tom: because devs won't have work to do....?

  782. sol has left

  783. tom

    if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?

  784. sol has joined

  785. Holger

    > if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests? My impression is that's still the case for most spare-time devs.

  786. Ge0rG

    I'm a spare-time dev writing software for other people.

  787. Holger

    You're different!

  788. Holger

    Another impression is that there fraction of few software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.

  789. Ge0rG

    Damn.

  790. xsteadfastx has left

  791. xsteadfastx has joined

  792. Holger

    Another impression is that there fraction of free software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.

  793. Holger

    So it's more driven by profitability these days.

  794. tom

    hm

  795. Ge0rG

    Not all of my software is profitable.

  796. madmalkav has left

  797. Holger

    You're different!

  798. tom

    Ge0rG is?

  799. tom

    why?

  800. sol has left

  801. sol has joined

  802. alex has left

  803. Ge0rG

    tom: I am why what?

  804. holger has joined

  805. tom

    > ‎Holger‎: You're different!

  806. Ge0rG

    tom: apparently because I'm writing software for normal people, and because not all of my software is profitable

  807. tom

    but that's what Holger was saying your different from yes?

  808. tom

    Holger, what you care to clarify?

  809. Holger

    Ge0rG is working on an XMPP client that targets normal end-users in his spare time. And my impression is that this is a somewhat uncommon case.

  810. Holger

    Or maybe somewhat specific to the XMPP/chat field. Where you have an interested to chat with others, possibly with illiterates. Which requires software that's usable by them.

  811. Ge0rG

    chat with illiterates! \o/

  812. Holger

    :-)

  813. tom

    by normal you mean computer illiterate right?

  814. Holger

    Yes.

  815. tom

    k

  816. pea has joined

  817. tom

    If I might make a reccomendation

  818. pea has left

  819. tom

    if you could make a stripped down xmpp client that only works in google chrome

  820. tom

    as a 'web app'

  821. Ge0rG

    it's called converse.js :P

  822. muppeth

    tom, I dont understand your argument. I'm not computer illiterate and i do like for example gnome. I have a feeling for you software for non-illetirates must look like its still 90s or something.

  823. tom

    most computer illiterates don't know how to use software and think that installing programs gives them viruses

  824. pea has joined

  825. pea has left

  826. tom

    they do everything from a google chrome. just look at email

  827. muppeth

    tom, not true. I run a platform that provides services to people and you would be suprised how many 'illiterate' people actually use it while you would think its only for the elitist power users.

  828. muppeth

    world isnt 0 or 1

  829. pea has joined

  830. pea has left

  831. muppeth

    i know few 'illiterate' people what use old xfce. not because they are power users that dont like change, but because they are used to their old wondows95 UI

  832. tom

    if your looking for adoption, that might be the way to go

  833. muppeth

    your preference for software does not make you better then others.

  834. muppeth

    or software better then the other

  835. vanitasvitae

    In my opinion computer illiterates should simply stay away from computers.

  836. tom

    I fully agree with vanitasvitae on this one, but unfortunately that's not going to happen

  837. vanitasvitae

    You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.

  838. tom

    well maybe, if you can isolate computer illiterates to smartphones that might work

  839. vanitasvitae

    Nonono

  840. vanitasvitae

    Smartphones are computers as well

  841. vanitasvitae

    Even lightswitches are, depending on the scientific model you use.

  842. Ge0rG

    > You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works. Nobody does that. Please turn off your computers immediately and become a potato farmer.

  843. Licaon_Kter

    vanitasvitae: turing complete lightswitches?

  844. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: potatos can eletricity

  845. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: potatos can electricity

  846. tom

    about the chrome-only webapp thing, that's actually a fairly popular thing. Thats the enture premis of ChromeOS

  847. tom

    You don't have a computer, you just have a netbook that only runs a web browser

  848. Ge0rG

    tom: https://inverse.chat

  849. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG: lets collapse society!

  850. tom

    yeah, that doesn't even do anything but render a solid blue page in my browser ,even with javascript and cookies enabled

  851. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: it was your premise. I'm perfectly fine using tech I don't understand

  852. alex has joined

  853. muppeth

    vanitasvitae, still it doesnt mean my workspace cannot look nice and needs to look like shit crafted in mid 90s. i still dont see how is gnome / gtk3 made for illiterates and hated universally by everyone that knows a bit of how stuff works.

  854. vanitasvitae

    "Mom, you're not a full stack developer? No Candy Crush for you!" Simple as that!

  855. muppeth

    hahahaha

  856. vanitasvitae

    I hope by now its obvious that my statement was not meant serious :D

  857. muppeth

    its more of a response to tom then to you vanitasvitae i think

  858. muppeth

    though candy crash should be made illegal

  859. vanitasvitae

    I'm with you on that point ;)

  860. tom

    Is there any reason the Prosody website recommends installing Prosody from Ports instead of Packages for OpenBSD?

  861. MattJ

    Probably because someone familiar with OpenBSD told us to put that there

  862. tom

    I'll take that advice then

  863. pea has joined

  864. pea has left

  865. pea has joined

  866. pea has left

  867. pea has joined

  868. pea has left

  869. pea has joined

  870. pea has left

  871. vanitasvitae has left

  872. vanitasvitae has joined

  873. xsteadfastx has left

  874. xsteadfastx has joined

  875. mimi89999 has joined

  876. tom

    Is there any reason to put the muc on a seperate subdomain?

  877. tom

    or can you put the muc on the same domain as the main server, for example xmpp.domain.tld instead of xmpp.domain.tld and muc.domain.tld

  878. tom

    or conference.domain.tld

  879. Ge0rG

    tom: some clients will expect that, or confuse things when MUCs are not separate

  880. Ge0rG

    tom: btw you shouldn't have "xmpp" or "jabber" in your xmpp domain, use SRV records for your main domain instead

  881. tom

    sorry?

  882. tom

    thanks

  883. Ge0rG

    tom: when a client receives a carbon copy of a MUC-PM message it needs to check whether it's a MUC or not, and a set of clients will revert to checking that on the domain

  884. Ge0rG

    I'm sure now that I've said "carbon copy of a MUC-PM message" you understand the problem.

  885. tom

    so it's better to put in on it's own subdomain for buggy clients?

  886. Ge0rG

    it's better to put them on their own domain because of an oversight in the protocol.

  887. sol has left

  888. sol has joined

  889. lag

    Ge0rG: really? This is how I've been using, xmpp.example.tld with A record and an SRV record to xmpp.example.tld. What kind of problems can arise?

  890. bowlofeggs has joined

  891. Ge0rG

    lag: it's not a problem, it's just a remnant of the old times when you didn't have SRV records to allow using your normal email address as a JID as well

  892. tom

    I wish it was possible to use nextcloud FIDs be the same as emails too

  893. tom

    (federated id)

  894. Ge0rG

    you can have that with xmpp for 20 years now.

  895. tom

    nextcloud is fairly new

  896. Ge0rG

    yes, and they went to reinveng messaging.

  897. Ge0rG

    because there isn't enough messaging already with xmpp and matrix.

  898. tom

    they did?

  899. Ge0rG

    as far as I understood, yes

  900. Ge0rG

    and then they realized people want federation, and were like: ugh what? how? what now?

  901. tom

    Double check that, Nextcloud is more of a file/calender collaboration suite

  902. Ge0rG

    IIRC it's called "nextcloud talk"

  903. tom

    They have a video chat, but I think that's only for people who you need to talk to but like only have skype or something

  904. tom

    I remember there being a plugin somewhere for xmpp integration, but really nextcloud is more of a file and calender sync service

  905. Ge0rG

    I can only keep up with so many messaging silos.

  906. Ge0rG

    ask me about XMPP.

  907. bowlofeggs has left

  908. tom

    ok

  909. bowlofeggs has joined

  910. tom

    your have any experience with mod_onions and mod_darknet ?

  911. Ge0rG

    no. I think that if you are into zero-metadata comms, you should use a protocol designed for that, like briar

  912. tom

    no, it's more about stopping illegal dragnet mass survailance

  913. tom

    transparent darknet integration is nice

  914. Ge0rG

    Germany is forbidding the darknet now.

  915. tom

    really?

  916. tom

    I thought germany was a democracy?

  917. tom

    I wonder how they plan to enforce that

  918. Ge0rG

    I don't know yet.

  919. Licaon_Kter

    tom: swat teams as usual? As CCC

  920. debacle has left

  921. tom

    seems super sketch, banning network anonymity

  922. Ge0rG

    https://darknetlive.com/post/germany-s-proposed-law-to-ban-tor-nodes-in-english/

  923. tom

    oh, so it's not law just a proposal

  924. Ge0rG

    it was accepted yesterday

  925. Ge0rG

    or at least passed one of the parliamentary chambers.

  926. Ge0rG

    But the politicians are sufficiently clueless to let it through, especially with the right wing being rather strong

  927. pep.

    Ge0rG: I saw that not so long ago :(

  928. tom

    communist china bans tor, but there's still tens of thousands of users

  929. pep.

    I think it's time to make more tor nodes

  930. tom

    you beat me to it

  931. tom

    There's no better time to setup tor than when governments start trying to ban it

  932. vanitasvitae has left

  933. vanitasvitae has joined

  934. pea has joined

  935. pea has left

  936. pea has joined

  937. pea has left

  938. xsteadfastx has left

  939. xsteadfastx has joined

  940. pea has joined

  941. pea has left

  942. pea has joined

  943. pea has left

  944. holger has left

  945. holger has joined

  946. pea has joined

  947. pea has left

  948. pea has joined

  949. pea has left

  950. pea has joined

  951. pea has left

  952. pea has joined

  953. pea has left

  954. sol has left

  955. sol has joined

  956. carlos has left

  957. carlos has joined

  958. oli has joined

  959. pea has joined

  960. pea has left

  961. pea has joined

  962. pea has left

  963. vanitasvitae has left

  964. vanitasvitae has joined

  965. pea has joined

  966. pea has left

  967. pea has joined

  968. pea has left

  969. pea has joined

  970. pea has left

  971. sol has left

  972. sol has joined

  973. xsteadfastx has left

  974. xsteadfastx has joined

  975. pea has joined

  976. pea has left

  977. pea has joined

  978. pea has left

  979. pea has joined

  980. pea has left

  981. pea has joined

  982. pea has left

  983. pea has joined

  984. pea has left

  985. oli has left

  986. pea has joined

  987. pea has left

  988. pea has joined

  989. pea has left

  990. pea has joined

  991. pea has left

  992. pea has joined

  993. pea has left

  994. pea has joined

  995. pea has left

  996. pea has joined

  997. pea has left

  998. pea has joined

  999. pea has left

  1000. pea has joined

  1001. pea has left

  1002. pea has joined

  1003. pea has left

  1004. pea has joined

  1005. pea has left

  1006. pea has joined

  1007. pea has left

  1008. pea has joined

  1009. pea has left

  1010. pea has joined

  1011. pea has left

  1012. pea has joined

  1013. pea has left

  1014. pea has joined

  1015. pea has left

  1016. pea has joined

  1017. pea has left

  1018. pea has joined

  1019. pea has left

  1020. pea has joined

  1021. pea has left

  1022. oli has joined

  1023. pea has joined

  1024. pea has left

  1025. pea has joined

  1026. pea has left

  1027. xsteadfastx has left

  1028. xsteadfastx has joined

  1029. mimi89999 has left

  1030. pea has joined

  1031. pea has left

  1032. xsteadfastx has left

  1033. xsteadfastx has joined

  1034. pea has joined

  1035. pea has left

  1036. pea has joined

  1037. pea has left

  1038. pea has joined

  1039. pea has left

  1040. pea has joined

  1041. pea has left

  1042. pea has joined

  1043. pea has left

  1044. ibikk has left

  1045. pea has joined

  1046. pea has left

  1047. pea has joined

  1048. pea has left

  1049. ibikk has joined

  1050. pea has joined

  1051. pea has left

  1052. pea has joined

  1053. pea has left

  1054. pea has joined

  1055. pea has left

  1056. pea has joined

  1057. pea has left

  1058. pea has joined

  1059. pea has left

  1060. ThibG has left

  1061. ThibG has joined

  1062. andrey.utkin has left

  1063. pea has joined

  1064. pea has left

  1065. pea has joined

  1066. pea has left

  1067. pea has joined

  1068. pea has left

  1069. debacle has joined

  1070. pea has joined

  1071. pea has left

  1072. pea has joined

  1073. pea has left

  1074. pea has joined

  1075. pea has left

  1076. pea has joined

  1077. pea has left

  1078. 404.city has joined

  1079. pea has joined

  1080. pea has left

  1081. mimi89999 has joined

  1082. Jonny has left

  1083. pea has joined

  1084. pea has left

  1085. pea has joined

  1086. pea has left

  1087. 404.city

    tom The reason for transfer errors in large file sizes, no one thought a few years ago that large files would be sent via http upload

  1088. pea has joined

  1089. pea has left

  1090. pea has joined

  1091. pea has left

  1092. 404.city has left

  1093. pea has joined

  1094. pea has left

  1095. pea has joined

  1096. pea has left

  1097. pea has joined

  1098. pea has left

  1099. pea has joined

  1100. pea has left

  1101. ThibG has left

  1102. ThibG has joined

  1103. pea has joined

  1104. pea has left

  1105. debacle has left

  1106. pea has joined

  1107. pea has left

  1108. pea has joined

  1109. pea has left

  1110. pea has joined

  1111. pea has left

  1112. Jonny has joined

  1113. pea has joined

  1114. pea has left

  1115. pea has joined

  1116. pea has left

  1117. xsteadfastx has left

  1118. xsteadfastx has joined

  1119. pea has joined

  1120. pea has left

  1121. pea has joined

  1122. pea has left

  1123. pea has joined

  1124. pea has left

  1125. pea has joined

  1126. pea has left

  1127. pea has joined

  1128. pea has left

  1129. pea has joined

  1130. pea has left

  1131. pea has joined

  1132. pea has left

  1133. pea has joined

  1134. pea has left

  1135. pea has joined

  1136. pea has left

  1137. pea has joined

  1138. pea has left

  1139. pea has joined

  1140. pea has left

  1141. pea has joined

  1142. pea has left

  1143. mrtooby has joined

  1144. pea has joined

  1145. pea has left

  1146. pea has joined

  1147. pea has left

  1148. pea has joined

  1149. pea has left

  1150. pea has joined

  1151. pea has left

  1152. pea has joined

  1153. pea has left

  1154. pea has joined

  1155. pea has left

  1156. pea has joined

  1157. pea has left

  1158. sol has left

  1159. sol has joined

  1160. pea has joined

  1161. pea has left

  1162. pea has joined

  1163. pea has left

  1164. pea has joined

  1165. pea has left

  1166. pea has joined

  1167. pea has left

  1168. andrey.utkin has joined

  1169. pea has joined

  1170. pea has left

  1171. pea has joined

  1172. pea has left

  1173. pea has joined

  1174. pea has left

  1175. pea has joined

  1176. pea has left

  1177. pea has joined

  1178. pea has left

  1179. pea has joined

  1180. pea has left

  1181. mimi89999 has left

  1182. pea has joined

  1183. pea has left

  1184. pea has joined

  1185. pea has left

  1186. pea has joined

  1187. pea has left

  1188. pea has joined

  1189. pea has left

  1190. pea has joined

  1191. pea has left

  1192. pea has joined

  1193. pea has left

  1194. pea has joined

  1195. pea has left

  1196. pea has joined

  1197. pea has left

  1198. mimi89999 has joined

  1199. pea has joined

  1200. pea has left

  1201. pea has joined

  1202. pea has left

  1203. pea has joined

  1204. pea has left

  1205. pea has joined

  1206. pea has left

  1207. debacle has joined

  1208. pea has joined

  1209. pea has left

  1210. pea has joined

  1211. pea has left

  1212. muppeth has left

  1213. pea has joined

  1214. pea has left

  1215. pea has joined

  1216. pea has left

  1217. xsteadfastx has left

  1218. xsteadfastx has joined

  1219. xsteadfastx has left

  1220. xsteadfastx has joined

  1221. mati (jabber.at) has left

  1222. mati (jabber.at) has joined

  1223. xsteadfastx has left

  1224. xsteadfastx has joined

  1225. muppeth has joined

  1226. pea has joined

  1227. pea has left

  1228. pea has joined

  1229. pea has left

  1230. pea has joined

  1231. pea has left

  1232. pea has joined

  1233. pea has left

  1234. pea has joined

  1235. pea has left

  1236. pea has joined

  1237. pea has left

  1238. madmalkav has joined

  1239. joerg has left

  1240. pea has joined

  1241. pea has left

  1242. joerg has joined

  1243. pea has joined

  1244. pea has left

  1245. integrationsfigur has left

  1246. Frinkel has left

  1247. Frinkel has joined

  1248. pea has joined

  1249. pea has left

  1250. pea has joined

  1251. pea has left

  1252. alacer has left

  1253. xsteadfastx has left

  1254. xsteadfastx has joined

  1255. meaz has joined

  1256. madmalkav has left

  1257. xsteadfastx has left

  1258. xsteadfastx has joined

  1259. meaz has left

  1260. sol has left

  1261. sol has joined

  1262. oli has left

  1263. pea has joined

  1264. pea has left

  1265. pea has joined

  1266. pea has left

  1267. sol has left

  1268. sol has joined

  1269. Jonny has left

  1270. Jonny has joined

  1271. Maranda has left

  1272. Maranda has joined

  1273. pea has joined

  1274. pea has left

  1275. pea has joined

  1276. pea has left

  1277. pea has joined

  1278. pea has left

  1279. Jonny has left

  1280. Jonny has joined

  1281. tom

    thank you 404.city

  1282. andrey.utkin has left

  1283. sol has left

  1284. sol has joined

  1285. oli has joined

  1286. andrey.utkin has joined

  1287. ibikk has left

  1288. pea has joined

  1289. pea has left

  1290. oli has left

  1291. pea has joined

  1292. pea has left

  1293. oli has joined

  1294. oli has left

  1295. oli has joined

  1296. oli has left

  1297. oli has joined

  1298. meaz has joined

  1299. pea has joined

  1300. pea has left

  1301. pea has joined

  1302. pea has left

  1303. pea has joined

  1304. pea has left

  1305. meaz has left

  1306. meaz has joined

  1307. oli has left

  1308. oli has joined

  1309. pod has left

  1310. pod has joined

  1311. sol has left

  1312. sol has joined

  1313. pea has joined

  1314. pea has left

  1315. pea has joined

  1316. pea has left

  1317. tom

    Link Mauve, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0

  1318. sol has left

  1319. holger has left

  1320. Jonny has left

  1321. Jonny has joined

  1322. meaz has left

  1323. debacle has left

  1324. pod has left

  1325. tom

    maybe it's time I take another look into qt

  1326. tom

    Does Psi support XMPP well?

  1327. SouL

    tom: depends on your definition, it does in my opinion

  1328. pea has joined

  1329. pea has left

  1330. tom

    sure, I mean does it implement most of the important XEPs properly

  1331. tom

    the comparison would be pidgin, which doesn't do that

  1332. pea has joined

  1333. pea has left

  1334. pea has joined

  1335. pea has left

  1336. pea has joined

  1337. pea has left

  1338. pea has joined

  1339. pea has left

  1340. pea has joined

  1341. pea has left

  1342. pea has joined

  1343. pea has left

  1344. pea has joined

  1345. pea has left

  1346. pea has joined

  1347. pea has left

  1348. debacle has joined

  1349. pea has joined

  1350. pea has left

  1351. pea has joined

  1352. pea has left

  1353. pea has joined

  1354. pea has left

  1355. pea has joined

  1356. pea has left

  1357. pea has joined

  1358. pea has left

  1359. pea has joined

  1360. pea has left

  1361. pea has joined

  1362. pea has left

  1363. pea has joined

  1364. pea has left

  1365. xsteadfastx has left

  1366. xsteadfastx has joined

  1367. Licaon_Kter has left

  1368. Licaon_Kter has joined

  1369. madmalkav has joined

  1370. muppeth has left

  1371. Licaon_Kter has left

  1372. kmq has left

  1373. kmq has joined

  1374. Jonny has left

  1375. Jonny has joined

  1376. madmalkav has left