XMPP Service Operators - 2019-08-13

  1. Licaon_Kter has left

  2. Licaon_Kter has joined

  3. Licaon_Kter has left

  4. bowlofeggs has left

  5. sol has left

  6. sol has joined

  7. anandsagar has left

  8. aj has joined

  9. sol has left

  10. sol has joined

  11. bowlofeggs has joined

  12. aj

    Interesting. Well, I spoke with the guys over at matrix and they told me that for their video conferencing, they are actually using jitsi meet, which I know uses XMPP/Jingle under the hood for signaling

  13. aj

    Right now, my debate is between ircv3 vs xmpp. I have several complaints about XMPP, have these been resolved or can they be fixed easily?

  14. aj

    The first is, chatsecure and monal on iOS both can't handle MUCs properly. monal has some issue with not supporting MUC MAM, so you don't get push notifications or offline messages delivered after returning online

  15. aj

    ChatSecure on the other hand has some bug that causes its notifications to get repeated 10x for a single MUC message. In a single day I accumulated 5,000 push notifications

  16. aj

    The other issue is that carbons support seemed really sketchy, since bitlbee, pidgin, adium all lacked working carbons support. Gajim too had some hiccups although my friend says it was resolved in the latest update

  17. madmalkav has left

  18. aj

    I think the XMPP server sends a stanza back when a message has been received by the server, but what I really need is a stanza sent from the recipient of the message saying the message was read. "Message delivered" is quite different from "Message Read" -- the former doesn't really guarantee the message was delivered, as there's a lot that go wrong from the server to the recipient

  19. aj

    Finally, I notice that for many clients -- mcabber, conversations, monal, and converse.js -- if you are offline for a long period of time (1 week or more), old messages, even private messages, are lost. Perhaps this is related to MAM purging old historical contents? I'm not sure if the fault here lies with the clients, prosody, or a poor configuration on my part

  20. aj

    With all these headaches, I am wondering whether or not it might be simpler and more robust to just build my chat app on top of IRCv3, since the protocol is much more straightforward, and I don't have to deal with XML.

  21. sol has left

  22. sol has joined

  23. ElDuderino has joined

  24. anandsagar has joined

  25. anandsagar has left

  26. Allie

    aj: are you running your own server? I think when I was configuring mine, there was an option for purging mam messages after a period of time. it may be the server you're using (or whatever you've configured) is purging them after 1 week or so

  27. sol has left

  28. sol has joined

  29. Allie

    I dunno about the rest, though. I use gajim on Linux and conversations on Android and both of those seem to be working fine as best I can tell

  30. aj

    Allie: Yes, I'm running prosody

  31. sol has left

  32. sol has joined

  33. aj

    I think yes possibly prosody was purging old MUC chats. I changed the config just now. But I'm still running into the other issues

  34. Allie

    I think for "message read" that's something the client has to request? but I don't know that the recipient has to honor it

  35. aj

    Yeah. I'm willing to modify/fork an existing xmpp client to implement that feature

  36. aj

    based on my research now, it seems like once ircv3 gets more adoption, it will basically offer everything that I needed from xmpp

  37. Allie

    maybe, although ircv3 hasn't really progressed much in the last few years from what I've seen

  38. sol has left

  39. sol has joined

  40. aj

    Does XMPP still receive any commercial support/financial backing for their projects? I know matrix recently got some large million dollar grant

  41. aj

    Ircv3 progress is a bit slow admittedly, but I think their standards have at least agreed on the most important features

  42. ElDuderino has left

  43. sol has left

  44. sol has joined

  45. ibikk has joined

  46. holger has joined

  47. aj

    Does anyone know if XMPP supports a way to indicate that the recipient has *read* a message? (as opposed to merely delivering the message to the XMPP server)

  48. sol has left

  49. sol has joined

  50. anandsagar has joined

  51. bowlofeggs has left

  52. anandsagar has left

  53. perflyst has joined

  54. Pingu from Woodquarter has joined

  55. aj has left

  56. xsteadfastx has joined

  57. ibikk

    aj: there is xep0333 (which conversations uses, but only for 'received' iirc. it supports 'displayed' as well and conversations flags that in case a client asks it to do so) for that use case.

  58. ibikk

    aj: there are three incomplete clients for iOS, some shitty old pc clients (which people use and still complain about) and a small number of okayish clients. I'd be surprised to see another non-commercial community (without generous financial funding, ircv3) problems like that although they already have to reinvent the wheel...

  59. holger has left

  60. pod has joined

  61. drops has left

  62. perflyst has left

  63. sezuan has joined

  64. sezuan has left

  65. sezuan has joined

  66. drops has joined

  67. sezuan has left

  68. sezuan has joined

  69. sezuan has left

  70. sezuan has joined

  71. sezuan has left

  72. sezuan has joined

  73. sol has left

  74. sol has joined

  75. sezuan has left

  76. sezuan has joined

  77. bowlofeggs has joined

  78. sezuan has left

  79. sezuan has joined

  80. sezuan has left

  81. sezuan has joined

  82. sezuan has left

  83. sezuan has joined

  84. sezuan has left

  85. sezuan has joined

  86. sezuan has left

  87. sezuan has joined

  88. drops has left

  89. ibikk has left

  90. aj has joined

  91. holger has joined

  92. sezuan has left

  93. perflyst has joined

  94. Licaon_Kter has joined

  95. anandsagar has joined

  96. sol has left

  97. sol has joined

  98. kmq has joined

  99. madmalkav has joined

  100. drops has joined

  101. drops has left

  102. drops has joined

  103. perflyst has left

  104. sol has left

  105. sol has joined

  106. aj

    Ah, hmm thanks ibikk

  107. aj

    Yes emias suggested XEP 0333, and he said that conversations supports it

  108. aj

    IRCv3 has yet to support this, unfortunately. I think on their github page they are still debating it

  109. perflyst has joined

  110. aj

    Right now my conclusion is that the XMPP ecosystem is more complete, but I think IRCv3 will be much easier to build and support later on

  111. sol has left

  112. sol has joined

  113. aj

    I keep hearing about how XMPP is still being used by major corporations but I think, even if such is the case, they clearly aren't releasing their code back as foss...

  114. aj

    because the XMPP ecosystem that I'm aware of is quite broken

  115. kuup has left

  116. anandsagar has left

  117. kuup has joined

  118. Licaon_Kter

    aj: it depends on usecase, major corp might not have your need of XEPs

  119. Licaon_Kter

    aj: did you see https://media.ccc.de/v/froscon2019-2448-the_state_of_the_xmpp_community ?

  120. aj

    let me take a look

  121. aj


  122. aj

    Daniel Gultsch, he is the lead dev of conversations I think?

  123. aj

    I remember seeing that name somewhere

  124. jonas’


  125. jonas’

    iNPUTmice in certain rooms

  126. aj

    Ah, nice, thanks

  127. ElDuderino has joined

  128. aj

    Is XMPP still getting any corporate sponsorships for development?

  129. aj

    I remember many corporations used xmpp internally in the 2010-2015 era but they have moved on since

  130. jonas’

    aj, define "XMPP"

  131. jonas’

    the XSF has sponsors, individual projects may or may not have sponsors or finance themselves via commercial contracts

  132. jonas’

    e.g. Conversations (which has both at the moment)

  133. aj

    ah, conversations has corporate sponsorship? hm

  134. aj

    I'm thinking mostly of the open source projects and the standards committee

  135. aj

    I imagine that corporations are using XMPP internally but if they're not releasing any code, then it's of no use to me

  136. jonas’

    Conversations has a grant at the moment for implementing A/V, and some money comes in from commercial requests

  137. aj

    oh nice

  138. drops has left

  139. aj

    How about prosody/ejabberd? and the various other clients?

  140. aj

    Conversations seems to be the only functional xmpp client, tbh

  141. jonas’

    ejabberd is a project of Erlang Solutions, which is a company

  142. jonas’

    opinions differ on that one

  143. aj

    I seem to notice a pattern where developers flock towards a new protocol, work on it and get it 80% complete, then move on to the next thing before actually finishing it

  144. jonas’

    I don’t think a client which takes hours to be usable just because I’m not always-on is particularly usable

  145. jonas’

    I don’t think a client which takes hours to be usable just because I’m not always-on is particularly functional

  146. jonas’

    that’s certainly true

  147. perflyst has left

  148. kuup has left

  149. kuup has joined

  150. kuup has left

  151. bowlofeggs has left

  152. sezuan has joined

  153. sol has left

  154. sol has joined

  155. WebPigeon has left

  156. Licaon_Kter

    aj: rozzin: https://nlnet.nl/project/Conversations/

  157. Licaon_Kter

    aj: https://nlnet.nl/project/Conversations/

  158. MattJ

    jonas’, ejabberd is a product of Process One, which is a company

  159. MattJ

    MongooseIM is the server from Erlang Solutions

  160. MattJ

    (originally a fork of ejabberd, but I believe it's quite different these days)

  161. bowlofeggs has joined

  162. jonas’

    MattJ, oh, I confused that, sorry

  163. jonas’

    there seems to be a pattern that xmppds get forked into things starting with `M`

  164. MattJ


  165. sol has left

  166. sol has joined

  167. drops has joined

  168. sol has left

  169. sol has joined

  170. sol has left

  171. sol has joined

  172. drops has left

  173. drops has joined

  174. ibikk has joined

  175. anandsagar has joined

  176. marc0s has left

  177. marc0s has joined

  178. bowlofeggs has left

  179. sol has left

  180. sol has joined

  181. ThibG has left

  182. ThibG has joined

  183. drops has left

  184. anandsagar has left

  185. ThibG has left

  186. ThibG has joined

  187. rom1dep has left

  188. rom1dep has joined

  189. sol has left

  190. sol has joined

  191. rom1dep has left

  192. rom1dep has joined

  193. andrey.utkin has joined

  194. Frinkel has joined

  195. sol has left

  196. sol has joined

  197. Frinkel has left

  198. marc0s has left

  199. marc0s has joined

  200. Frinkel has joined

  201. marc0s has left

  202. marc0s has joined

  203. Frinkel has left

  204. Frinkel has joined

  205. rom1dep has left

  206. rom1dep has joined

  207. Frinkel has left

  208. Frinkel has joined

  209. sol has left

  210. sol has joined

  211. rom1dep has left

  212. rom1dep has joined

  213. sol has left

  214. sol has joined

  215. drops has joined

  216. ThibG has left

  217. ThibG has joined

  218. sol has left

  219. sol has joined

  220. drops has left

  221. drops has joined

  222. anandsagar has joined

  223. reset has left

  224. reset has joined

  225. anandsagar has left

  226. drops has left

  227. sol has left

  228. sol has joined

  229. rom1dep has left

  230. rom1dep has joined

  231. reset has left

  232. holger has left

  233. holger has joined

  234. holger has left

  235. holger has joined

  236. ibikk has left

  237. perflyst has joined

  238. debacle has joined

  239. kmq has left

  240. sol has left

  241. sol has joined

  242. ibikk has joined

  243. sol has left

  244. sol has joined

  245. perflyst has left

  246. WebPigeon has joined

  247. sol has left

  248. sol has joined

  249. WebPigeon has left

  250. sol has left

  251. sol has joined

  252. holger has left

  253. sol has left

  254. sol has joined

  255. sol has left

  256. sol has joined

  257. rom1dep

    aj: your perspective is interesting, I use XMPP extensively in a family context where irc wouldn't make much sense, and I don't see IRCv3 changing anything about that. Then XMPP has lots of goodies and real 1:1 support, among stuff that can make it appealing to the average user (which I doubt IRC ever aims at having). If anything, my experience with operating two XMPP servers over several years has been boring: ejabberd is dead simple to self-host while supporting millions of simultaneous users on some instances. It's the kind of serious software I'd wish to see more of.

  258. anandsagar has joined

  259. Ge0rG

    jonas’: are you saying it's time for mrosody?

  260. sol has left

  261. sol has joined

  262. anandsagar has left

  263. Licaon_Kter


  264. Licaon_Kter


  265. Licaon_Kter


  266. jonas’

    Ge0rG, itym Metronome

  267. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I don't think so

  268. Holger


  269. Holger

    Then again you can't fork M-Link ...

  270. Ge0rG

    M-M-M-Multi Kill!

  271. jonas’


  272. Ge0rG

    Damn. I'm getting old.

  273. drops has joined

  274. Licaon_Kter

    This is unreal.

  275. Holger

    aj: M-Link and Tigase are commercially backed servers as well, the latter is Open Source. The company behind M-Link has an Open Source client as well: https://swift.im/swift.html

  276. Holger

    Development of Swift isn't terribly active though.

  277. sol has left

  278. sol has joined

  279. Jonny has left

  280. Jonny has joined

  281. drops has left

  282. sol has left

  283. sol has joined

  284. WebPigeon has joined

  285. drops has joined

  286. andrey.utkin has left

  287. andrey.utkin has joined

  288. WebPigeon has left

  289. drops has left

  290. perflyst has joined

  291. holger has joined

  292. sol has left

  293. sol has joined

  294. sol has left

  295. sol has joined

  296. perflyst has left

  297. anandsagar has joined

  298. holger has left

  299. holger has joined

  300. bowlofeggs has joined

  301. sol has left

  302. sol has joined

  303. reset has joined

  304. kmq has joined

  305. anandsagar has left

  306. drops has joined

  307. kmq has left

  308. ibikk has left

  309. ibikk has joined

  310. sol has left

  311. sol has joined

  312. drops has left

  313. Jonny has left

  314. Jonny has joined

  315. drops has joined

  316. WebPigeon has joined

  317. WebPigeon has left

  318. madmalkav has left

  319. madmalkav has joined

  320. Maranda has left

  321. Maranda has joined

  322. kmq has joined

  323. holger has left

  324. holger has joined

  325. sezuan has left

  326. anandsagar has joined

  327. Maranda


  328. Licaon_Kter has left

  329. Licaon_Kter has joined

  330. perflyst has joined

  331. drops has left

  332. anandsagar has left

  333. kareb has left

  334. kareb has joined

  335. kareb has left

  336. kareb has joined

  337. drops has joined

  338. seantodd has left

  339. WebPigeon has joined

  340. Pingu from Woodquarter has left

  341. WebPigeon has left

  342. seantodd has joined

  343. drops has left

  344. drops has joined

  345. kmq has left

  346. WebPigeon has joined

  347. sol has left

  348. sol has joined

  349. Jonny

    Ge0rG: 🙂👍

  350. kareb has left

  351. WebPigeon has left

  352. ibikk has left

  353. WebPigeon has joined

  354. Jonny has left

  355. ElDuderino has left

  356. ElDuderino has joined

  357. ibikk has joined

  358. Chobbes has joined

  359. Chobbes has left

  360. Jonny has joined

  361. sezuan has joined

  362. andrey.utkin has left

  363. hawar has joined

  364. anandsagar has joined

  365. WebPigeon has left

  366. WebPigeon has joined

  367. ibikk has left

  368. WebPigeon has left

  369. WebPigeon has joined

  370. ibikk has joined

  371. drops has left

  372. drops has joined

  373. kareb has joined

  374. Allo has left

  375. Allo has joined

  376. kareb has left

  377. kareb has joined

  378. kareb has left

  379. kareb has joined

  380. drops has left

  381. drops has joined

  382. kareb has left

  383. kmq has joined

  384. sezuan has left

  385. drops has left

  386. drops has joined

  387. WebPigeon has left

  388. WebPigeon has joined

  389. WebPigeon has left

  390. WebPigeon has joined

  391. anandsagar has left

  392. WebPigeon has left

  393. WebPigeon has joined

  394. holger has left

  395. WebPigeon has left

  396. WebPigeon has joined

  397. holger has joined

  398. kmq has left

  399. perflyst has left

  400. perflyst has joined

  401. holger has left

  402. WebPigeon has left

  403. sol has left

  404. sol has joined

  405. Jonny has left

  406. Pingu from Woodquarter has joined

  407. perflyst has left

  408. xsteadfastx has left

  409. felix has left

  410. Licaon_Kter has left

  411. Licaon_Kter has joined

  412. andrey.utkin has joined

  413. andrey.utkin has left

  414. andrey.utkin has joined

  415. drops has left

  416. drops has joined

  417. WebPigeon has joined

  418. anandsagar has joined

  419. hawar has left

  420. felix has joined

  421. WebPigeon has left

  422. ElDuderino has left

  423. felix has left

  424. anandsagar has left

  425. Jonny has joined

  426. andrey.utkin has left

  427. Pingu from Woodquarter has left

  428. marc0s has left

  429. marc0s has joined

  430. Allie has left

  431. Allie has joined

  432. felix has joined

  433. felix has left

  434. sol has left

  435. felix has joined

  436. Licaon_Kter has left

  437. Licaon_Kter has joined

  438. WebPigeon has joined

  439. anandsagar has joined

  440. mimi89999 has left

  441. mimi89999 has joined

  442. WebPigeon has left