tompretty much every reason they gave for why don't they just use XMPP has been nullified with recent xeps
tomrather than fix painpoints and things we already have and sharpen our tools they reinvent everything from scratch and fix the same problems XMPP had to fix years ago.
jrmutom_: hm I got the same feeling too
jrmupersonally I prefer IRC over XMPP, I feel like IRC can do what XMPP does even simpler, but I think
jrmuat least XMPP has been proven to work. Matrix to me seems like it's just a disaster waiting to happen
jrmuThe funny thing is matrix's main feature -- video chats -- is actually done using jitsi meet, IIRC, which I thought was using XMPP
jrmuOtherwise I don't see any new compelling feature that matrix offers
jrmuSo I'm not delusional, matrix is just the latest hype/fad that will die a nasty death soon
jrmuwell, it'll probably survive, but will suffer some major setbacks in the next few years
tomIt's not a continuous improvement type thing or permaculture no
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mikeif it mattered how good the protocols were, I wouldn't have lost 99% of my userbase to discord. UX is the only thing most people care about. if matrix looks nice, it'll be around forever.
jrmuthe xmpp clients have decent UI. But matrix is going to struggle with scalability, spam, and security because of bad design I think
jrmuI'd also point out that matrix is fundamentally broken when it comes to the command line last I used it in 2018, and that matters for a lot of programmers
jrmuThere was only weechat-matrix at that time, and it didn't work well
mikewhich xmpp clients have decent ui? it's a huge gap. Conversations is the only one I'd recommend to a non techy user right now. Need at least one client that's simple and usable and cross platform tbqh.
jrmuConversations and Monal/ChatSecure are decent
jrmuNot great but decent
jrmuI personally think Monal's UI is better than ChatSecure for iOS
jrmuas for linux/windows, gajim was decent
jrmuI agree that the clients could use some more polish
mikegajim is a great diagnostic tool for me, it's technically great and very complete, but the UI is awful and inconsistent.
mikedino is coming along nicely, hope it builds on windows one day.
jrmuPersonally I'm betting the farm on IRC
jrmuI think IRC has a great protocol, just hideous UX, I just need to fix the UX
mikestill need a client, that's where the gap is.
jrmuHm, for me the existing XMPP clients are decent enough, I just need to submit some minor patches
jrmuif I had to write a client from scratch, I'd prefer to focus on IRC though
jrmuRight now Monal has issues with MUC support
jrmuI hadn't heard of Dino before, what platforms are supported?
mikeMonal's muc support has been a bit lacking since day one but there's not much else you can use on iOS
mikedino is only unix-ish stuff right now.
mikehttps://dino.im/ I'm using it right at this moment
tom>mike: if it mattered how good the protocols were, I wouldn't have lost 99% of my userbase to discord. UX is the only thing most people care about. if matrix looks nice, it'll be around forever.
that's what dino is for. The fad users who don't think about long term effects of their decisions. slap whatever questionable UI design choices into dino. that isolated that userbase from the protocols. The protocol does matter and in fact it matters the most because It's the foundation of all our infrastructure. even if you've got the most solid frontend possible it will fall over on a bad foundation. Also, not everyone is part of the dino userbase. Some people need professional communication tools and protocols, and if the protocol can't support that than were going to continue to have segreated networks
tomthe situation for email was similar in the 90s
tomyou had the AOL messenger built for kids and computer illiterates that was built upon email, but was siloed as in federation with other email servers turned off
tomeventially the competition of various other small ISPs and orgranizations and the need for interoperable digital communication pervailed
tomand AOL was forced to end up turning on federation
jrmuI think the bad protocol design will result in some serious scalability and security issues down the line
tomIf you want to see the kind of immediate returns on userbase as discord does, all you have to do is spend the equiv amount of money bribing popular youtubers to shill XMPP. Just as the advertisement method was for Discord
jrmuThey won't feel it yet but they will have a very hard time crossing the threshold of getting mainstream
tombut keep in mind the kind of userbase that will attract. you could bring about another eternal september
tomMy friends and colleages still use mumble despite the discord advertising. the majority of discord's userbase is gullible children. the rest is network effect
jrmuWell that network effect is very important
jrmuThat's why I think it's still very important that the XMPP community make it a high priority to bridge seamlessly with the IRC community
tomwell then bribe some youtubers
jrmuNo, I think the focus is making sure XMPP has great bridges to IRC
jrmuI don't have that kind of money =)
tomneither does hammer & chisel (discord) they just loan it from venture firms and sell userdata to pay it back
mikethe network effect is absolutely everything and discord plays that game brilliantly. they're facebook jr.
jrmuYeah they have some very bad business practices
jrmuBut yes we can't ignore the network effect. We have to make sure that all the open protocols remain compatible
tomwell see what happens to them in the near feature. either they get bought out or go bankrupt
tomthere might also be some new privacy laws coming soon which would throw a wrench in the selling of userdata bussiness model
jrmuIMO one area we need to focus on is helping make these open protocols more profitable
jrmuHow can we let IRC/XMPP/Matrix operators profit without data mining?
jrmuOtherwise without funding, our protocols will always remain niche
tomthere are more bussiness models than selling your user's data jrmu. communications is like a utility jrmu. Everyone needs it but not everyone has the expertise, time, or interest to provide it
mikeyou only need massive funding if you're not decentralised. lots of small services, properly federated, can run on smaller models funded by the communities they serve.
tomI still get paid to build and maintain email servers
tomand there are lots of companies that provide email services
mike"enable IM services for domain" should be a checkbox in a hosting plan.
tomlike this https://hosted.im/ and this https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/hosted-collaboration-solution/index.html
tomoh this https://nextcloud.com/
jrmutom_: Yeah. I was thinking of providing something like a one-stop infrastructure service for open source developers
jrmulike a google drive + email + slack service for education/open source
tomjrmu, like this https://www.linode.com/
jrmuLinode only provides VPSes, I thought?
jrmuRight now a lot of developers are using freenode and that's not very easy to use
tom>loud Hosting for Developers
High performance SSD Linux servers for all of your infrastructure needs.
jrmuThat requires self hosting though, it's too much work for most developers
tomit's similar to what you were proposing yes? albeilt more like a hosted pbx than a virtual machine
jrmuI was thinking of a github + gmail + dropbox + slack provider where it's just a few mouse clicks away, no programming needed
jrmuThe difference would be this provider would use open protocols, contribute the source code back for all software, and avoid data mining
tomjrmu, oh. well then that exists already. look at nextcloud. it could use a bit of work but provides already most of what you describe with a plugin or two
jrmuAnd probably charge a subscription fee
jrmuNextcloud has some serious issues I think, but that's sort of what I had in mind
jrmuNextcloud has the right idea but very bad execution
jrmueg the xmpp client can't connect with freenode or the rest of the IRC community, and the video streaming is sluggish and can't handle 1000s of simultaneous users
tomI hate that they currently are screwing around with this nextcloud-talk webrtc thing when JSXC is already in the plugin repo, but you can see where it's coming from by reading the development tracker. people who don't know any better talking about "lets integreate rocketchat" type deal
jrmuIdeally what we'd have is a video chat solution that works with IRC, so you could immediately chat with people already on IRC, plus add video on top
jrmuRocketchat looks good but also I struggled with it because it's very non-portable
tomjrmu, i'd be interested in looking into the IRC situation. I've tried it myself by registering for transport service at the red hot chilli peppers XMPP server, but I'm not sure if their service is broken or what I could not get it to work properly
jrmuI couldn't figure out how to install it on openbsd
tomjrmu, I've been forced to use it and host it for a medium sized enterprise
jrmuDid you like it?
jrmuThe UI looked great but administering it looked like a nightmare
tomthe whole thing is a pile of crap. there isn't even a native client, it's just a embedded web browser type deal, like discord
tomand the backend is a nodejs blob
jrmuThat's what I had feared
tombut rocketchat offers nothing more than the baseline XMPP implementation, maybe even less. the only thing the sets it up is it's user interface, which is similar to the riot type deal
jrmuYeah Riot has a nice UI
tomwhat you get with rocket chat is HTTP_UPLOAD, mucs, and that is about it
jrmuThey also have jitsi meet in there somewhere I think?
tomit's just a slightly less bad slack
jrmuIf only we could have a Riot client for IRC =)
jrmuthen we'd be talking
tomwho's maintain it though
jrmuYeah that's why we need to solve that profit issue, hehe
tomin order for that to work you'd have to alienate powerusers and professionals
jrmuIMO, the best way to profit right now is to focus on providing an open source / education platform
jrmuSince the main people who'd be willing to pay are open source enthusiasts
tomand hobbyist developers aren't going to want to spend time maintaining something they would never want to use
tomso this would have to come from a fund
jrmuProvide a turn-key service for a slack-like alternative to freenode
jrmuThat open source developers could use, and charge a monthly subscription fee for storage/bandwidth
jrmuThere's not a chance we can compete with freenode
jrmuThere's not a chance we can compete with discord*
jrmubut there's a chance we could compete with freenode
tomI don't going back to irc is a good idea
jrmuDino has a nice UI
jrmuThis looks good, surprised I didn't notice it before
tomwell it's certainly subjective
jrmuThis looks better than gajim
jrmuAny serious flaws to dino?
tomlooks like computer illiterate smartphone-inteface-on-computer cancer toy to me. but I understand the need for a client of such nature
jrmuYeah for normal people
jrmuI think the IRC protocol itself can be rescued, I'm trying to work on adding a lot of XMPP's features to IRC, like file upload, message sync
jrmuThere's no need to even change the protocol, it can be layered on with services and bots
tomusing the term 'normal people' is misleading
jrmuno worries I understand what you mean. I'm using bitlbee+irssi
jrmuI don't like GUIs either
tomI like GUIs. got thing against them. I use Hexchat
tombut i'm sure you can see theres a major difference in target audience between hexchat, and say...dino
tomsuch as a major target audience difference in Gajim 0.16.X and Gajim 1.X
jrmuFor me, the focus needs to be more on the...discord type audience
jrmuAs mike brought up, the network effect is really important for networking protocols
jrmuif we could get 1 million users on open protocols, it'd make a huge difference in terms of how attractive the protocols become
jrmuOtherwise, people will say irc and xmpp are dead
tomare you really sure about that? because we had that before. everybody and their grandma had a jabber endpoint/jid
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Licaon_KterXMPP is used by billions....in some form...but yeah...dead...
tomI feel like that kind of target is just going to mosey around to whatever has the most advetising of the time period, regardless of quality, standardization, security, privacy, usability, etc
tomback when google exposed jabber federation
tomalbeit with a complete refusal to do so properly, IE TLS force-turned off
tomwhat tf was up with that anyways?
Licaon_KterGajim is constantly evolving, try the snapshots, it can be made more like Dino if you wish.
jrmuThe XMPP that is used by billions isn't the open kind, and it isn't what the open source community is using
tomgoogle of all companies surely could figure out how to get a X.509 certificate. and have the manpower to modify any server implementation to spy on their users more
jrmuThat's the big problem
jrmuI can't connect to any of those networks using a foss client =(
tomwell unless you got silicon valley venture captialist money to blow up online advetising I think we are going to stay stuck in the AOL-email era. Best forget about trying to get the most userbase right now and focus on ourselves and our painpoints
tomemail was invented in the 1970s and it wasn't until the 1990s we got the proliferation and federation we have today
tomright now the markets that need relibility, robustness, and standardization are the ones using XMPP
AllieI need to check out that other branch of gajim.
Alliealthough I might already be using 1.x...
muppethMeh... no need to cry and complain. Everything we need is already here. Just needs some work here and there. Rather then flamewar (been there done that) everyone shoukd just check where they csn contribute and just go for it.
muppethConversejs easily by pretty much anyone can be built into rriot like chat even with jirsi as a plugin.
muppethI managed to rebuild my little community after we left matrix pretty much from zero, and i was suprised when people started using xmpp for the first time and they were shock as to how fast, light and easy it is to use it
muppethAnd there is movim which is great webclient with even social network built in
muppethThere is really less and less to complain about. Sure matrix has riot, developed by for profit company so much easier imo, but thats lretty much it. No other client has viop and barely any e2ee
muppethAnd since they have a for profit company that understands that to succed you need to hype it up (they are in the startup world) so they try to patch things like using jitsi to solve voip or now some library that is pretty much a e2ee bridge beteen your client and server etc
muppethSounds nice but in long run lots of duct tape
muppeth> They have clients that offers features and gives what people wants today. XMPP don't
Meh.... its a hype thing. Your client does everything and more. No need to be ashamed of it.
MartinAm I missing messages or is muppeth having a long monologue?
muppethMattJ: hahahaha... just got to my stop so that would be it for now hahababa
MartinI'm in the metro too but I don't feel like ranting. 😂
MattJMartin, wow. Which city's metro doesn't make you feel like ranting? :)
MartinIt's crowded now but it's rush hour so I am used to it. 😃
Allieoh and re: discord, ughhhhh... it just irritates me. I set up an account for the first time the other day to get a transport working with spectrum. I don't know why people love the interface because it's cluttered and horrible to me.
Allieonly got one person to talk to on it, but they refuse to use anything else, hence the transport
MartinHa, Allie takes over ranting. 😃
MartinHa, I really like Simpsons references. 😃
AllieI'm not old, but it's interesting to be old enough to watch people just keep reinventing the wheel
muppeth> Ha, Allie takes over ranting. 😃
Hahahaa should make shifts
muppethBut seriously.should turn that frustration into positive thing. Just like others do. You know. Gajim doesnt have ugly ui, it a sophisticated tool for specialists. We dont lack good clients for iOS, we are just careful with adding new features to provide the best and the most robust and well tested and handcrafted user experience.
Licaon_Ktermuppeth: good spin
AllieIf I'm ever in a place where my programming skills are decent enough I may help out with some existing projects. But I also gotta have time which is in short supply these days 😔
muppethAllie: thats just lame excuse everyone uses. Last week i reskinned conversejs l. Did not take any skills (i'm lame dev) and if you lokm around there is plenty that could be done. Theming, helping with design, writting posts, promoting, troubleshooting omemo on all possible cients, etc
Licaon_Ktermuppeth: link reskin?
muppethLicaon_Kter: webchat.disroot.org the code will be published this week as we're migrsting to new git instance
Alliemuppeth: I feel like there's a difference in working with web stuff vs local applications, though. I can do web stuff fine. Plus I'm still trying to wrap my head around XMPP protocol wise. I've been working on a bot for my own server to try and get a better handle on things.
Alliethat is a pretty nice layout
muppethAllie: but all the others are successful because they dont care about local stuff. Discord, mattermost, rocketchat and riot is just electron
AllieI know. I want nice local apps to use myself, though 🙂
muppethAnd since we have three webchats already there and web stuff is very easy entry point for everyone, why no jump in and improve on it so we have aweome webchat solution for xmpp which solves the issue of multiplatform
Licaon_Ktermuppeth: great, too bad that concorde theme is kinda abanadoned/broken
muppethAnd then the non-lame gurus can work on native client improvements
muppethAllie: i use conversations on mobile and dino on desktop and i'm very satisfied with it
AllieI still gotta get a web interface to my instance. So maybe I'll play with that then.
muppethDont need more atm. I have gajim but as someone said it for special admin stuff
AllieI have Dino installed but it's a little too simplistic for me. I use Conversations on Android and Gajim on my desktop
muppeth> muppeth: great, too bad that concorde theme is kinda abanadoned/broken
Initially i was hacking on the main theme but now i want to move it as a proper seperate theme and push it upstream
muppethAllie: what non simplistic features you need for everyday use for text messeging system
Licaon_Ktermuppeth: better update and fix those CVEs
muppethLicaon_Kter: thanks will do.
Licaon_KterAnd Dino, same issues
Alliemuppeth: if I did nothing but msg people, Dino is probably fine. but running my own server (albeit not with many users) I like having service discovery, being able to manage transports, ad-hoc commands, etc.
muppethAllie: i ise those rarely so every now and then i start gajim just to do those specific things but most of the time dino is just fine
muppethAllie: which tranports are you running?
Allieright now spectrum for discord and biboumi for IRC, although might be adding more
muppethAllie: can discordtransport be configured by user (like bridging rooms/joiing rooms etc) or you need admin for that?
AllieI think with spectrum it works like pretty much any regular transport. You can msg individuals, join rooms, etc., but not bridge to existing MUCs I don't think. Unfortunately it's limited because stupid discord won't let you login unless you login to the official web app from my server's IP first. So that really limits its usefulness unless spectrum adds the ability to handle captchas
rom1dep> Gajim doesnt have ugly ui, it a sophisticated tool for specialists.
I have few happy users on gajim, they aren't exactly young or advanced on the computer literacy spectrum.
AllieGajim usually works well for me except for little annoying issues sometimes
Allieor it'll be like "Welp... 🤷♀️" and crash
rom1depWhat really kills it (and Dino) is imho the inaptitude of Gtk3 to behave and look well on anything but a gnome env. But that's another topic