XMPP Service Operators - 2019-12-11


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  362. atom Ge0rG: https://github.com/JabberSPAM/jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto/pull/23
  363. Licaon_Kter atom: TEN we have TENNNNN
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  365. atom Licaon_Kter: 10 out of 10 is >80%
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  367. Licaon_Kter ~80% let's be honest here
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  369. atom Licaon_Kter: statistics show a clear misunderstanding of the purpose of the manifest.
  370. Licaon_Kter _"10 out of 10 agree with atom"_
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  372. atom Licaon_Kter: you are witty, but your jokes do not solve the problem.
  373. Martin > Licaon_Kter: statistics show a clear misunderstanding of the purpose of the manifest. Why don't you help to clarify it?
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  375. Martin What is the point they get wrong?
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  378. Licaon_Kter atom: what is the problem? As Martin said, effing add a PR and clarify it instead of "omg delete github" reaction that 404 has
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  381. atom Licaon_Kter: the problem is that the manifest is bad. it does not include a list of all manifest compliant servers. the list of servers subscribing by manifest becomes scapegoats.
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  384. perflyst atom: are you new 404city support?
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  386. perflyst atom: are you the new 404city support?
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  391. Licaon_Kter atom: you know there's *another* list with the actual blocked servers, right?
  392. Licaon_Kter This is just a page with "I agree spam is bad"....and nothing else
  393. Martin > scapegoats Scapegoats for what?
  394. atom Licaon_Kter: Communities of servers such as blabber and disroot use the manifesto to criticize that all signatories want to enter registration by phone number and for block competitors' servers.
  395. atom The manifest is bad because it allows such interpretations.
  396. perflyst i am quite sure muppeth never said that
  397. atom perflyst: ask him to sign the manifesto, he will refuse.
  398. perflyst yes, for good reasons
  399. perflyst but i will put my hand for him in fire that he never said that all servers on the list will block any servers which not on the list nor forcing phone number
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  401. atom > This is just a page with "I agree spam is bad"....and nothing else I understand this, others do not understand.
  402. atom > but i will put my hand for him in fire that he never said that all servers on the list will block any servers which not on the list nor forcing phone number This is what users of his server and his community say.he does not sign the manifesto for this reason.
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  404. atom the manifest in the form in which it exists is unnecessary and harmful. Did the manifest win spam? - not. Did he create a bunch of criticism? - Yes
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  409. Licaon_Kter atom: > Communities of servers such as blabber and disroot use the manifesto to criticize that all signatories want to enter registration by phone number and for block competitors' servers. Links? Pics? Provide some effing evidence...e
  410. Licaon_Kter Competitors? Wtf?
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  413. atom Licaon_Kter: I have no purpose to convince you. If you are looking for evidence, you will find it yourself by creating a discussion.
  414. Martin > the manifest in the form in which it exists is unnecessary and harmful. Did the manifest win spam? - not. Did he create a bunch of criticism? - Yes People following the manifesto got spamming servers operators improve their spammer detection, countless spammers were deleted and some abandoned servers even shut down. It's progress. What did you expect? Spam instantly stopping from one day to another? It's a continuous process.
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  418. atom Martin: spammers create accounts not on shabby servers, but on active servers. how will the manifest help from spam if the spammer creates an 100 000 account on yax.im?
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  421. Martin yax.im is good at detecting spammy behavior so they go for easier victims.
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  423. atom Martin: I got spam from yax.im
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  432. perflyst can happen, nothing is perfect but that is why contact addresses exist
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  435. atom spammers receive $ 50-100 for spam mailings. New domain price $ 1
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  437. Ge0rG I haven't had outgoing spam on yax.im in over a year. And before that, I was really fast at finding the accounts and deleting them.
  438. atom the price for 1000 captcha is also 1 dollar
  439. Ge0rG atom: you've created the discussion. You don't have any evidence. I know there was controversy about the manifesto, but not in the ways you argue
  440. atom Ge0rG: I do not have s2s for about a year. therefore, I have not received spam from yax.im for about a year.
  441. Ge0rG atom: so you tell me you received a spam message from yax.im once, and now it's your proof of the manifesto not working?
  442. Licaon_Kter > I have no purpose to convince you. If you are looking for evidence, you will find it yourself by creating a discussion. Why not put theis evidence there on Github instead of coming down the mountain with *"TEN"* in your hands?
  443. Licaon_Kter > atom: are you the new 404city support or PR or socket puppet or?
  444. atom Ge0rG: I do not argue about the manifesto.I suggest to execute pull request.
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  446. atom Ge0rG: https://github.com/JabberSPAM/jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto/pull/23
  447. atom Licaon_Kter: yes
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  449. perflyst > Ge0rG: I do not have s2s for about a year. therefore, I have not received spam from yax.im for about a year. so 404city users and the other way cannot chat with yax.im users?
  450. perflyst Nice anti spam
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  453. Ge0rG perflyst: yes, sadly
  454. perflyst rather i would get spam than not being able to chat with someone
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  457. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: wait...so he bans server willynilly then comes to github to take the manifesto down? Hypocrisy much?
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  460. Ge0rG Licaon_Kter: it's not a ban, we just have different opinions on which ciphers are secure
  461. atom perflyst, 404 (support ECC & RSA) <=> yax.im (support RSA)
  462. perflyst so 404 to yaxim works as you support "old" RSA and new ecc?
  463. perflyst or what do you wanna say
  464. atom 404 use ECC
  465. perflyst even if the receiving server extremly unsecure, dont you want as admin the best server support? i mean normally you also allow weak ciphers on email so nobody has issues with any old shitty remote server
  466. perflyst what is the & for?
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  471. atom perflyst, 404.city (ECC&RSA) => (conected) => yax.im (RSA) . Yax.im (RSA) = (no connected) = 404.city (ECC)
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  473. perflyst so yaxims openssl (?) is old or what is the issue?
  474. perflyst or does yaxim manually forbids curves?
  475. Ge0rG perflyst: I don't trust into ECDSA
  476. perflyst ok, so basically you are blocking it?
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  479. perflyst because ECC is a "standard" and anyone can use it
  480. atom perflyst, Yax.im server policy does not allow any ECC servers
  481. Ge0rG I've enabled ECDSA now.
  482. Ge0rG just so my users can keep sending spam to atom
  483. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: 👍
  484. perflyst good choice :)
  485. atom Ge0rG, 👍
  486. Licaon_Kter Luckly there's no manifesto to keep you in check anymore, go ahead, by bold Ge0rG
  487. Ge0rG ECDSA is one of the worst crypto algorithms in modern use
  488. perflyst lets dont discuss this, this will not end good
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  493. Ge0rG atom: but you are the smartest of all. you still keep fighting spam, and doing what the manifesto tells, but you are not listed any more! :D
  494. perflyst (disroot does the same, ironically)
  495. Ge0rG BTW, there seems to be a new spam haven, exlpoit.im
  496. Ge0rG (note the typo)
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  511. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: they're just a victim of your evil manifesto!!!!111
  512. Ge0rG speaking of which... my top 10 spam servers by number of messages in the last two weeks: messages bots domain ---------- ---------- ------------------------------------ 342 256 jabber.ipredator.se 334 303 darkengine.biz 326 264 xmpp.su 313 2 exlpoit.im 302 273 jabber.no 278 263 jabber.sibnet.ru 192 182 bytesund.biz 185 170 jabber.vikings.net 174 156 resolution1.net 158 153 ajabber.me
  513. atom 1 bot = 1 messenges
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  515. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: nice bots
  516. Licaon_Kter atom: 1 bot 156 messages
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  519. atom Other servers
  520. Ge0rG no spam from 404.city because no s2s ;)
  521. atom xmpp.is recently deleted 100,000 account created per day. xmpp.is use captcha
  522. Ge0rG how recently?
  523. stpeter yow
  524. Ge0rG my last spam from them was Nov 28th
  525. Ge0rG yow stpeter
  526. stpeter ;-)
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  528. atom I disabled in-band 404.city to combat spam
  529. Ge0rG I've heard spammers also use web registration
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  531. atom Ge0rG, Yes, spammers can bypass Google captcha and regular captcha Ejabberd and Prosody.
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  535. atom >Ge0rG‎: how recently? About a month ago
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  540. Ge0rG atom: can you tell the date? > my last spam from them was Nov 28th
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  544. Maranda > Ge0rG, Yes, spammers can bypass Google captcha and regular captcha Ejabberd and Prosody. 🤔
  545. Maranda Hmm nay
  546. Maranda Maybe regular
  547. Martin Ge0rG: https://xmpp.is/2019/10/17/registrations-closed-once-again/
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  550. Maranda Maybe regular
  551. Maranda At this time Prosody stable does not support SNI in their HTTP library. I have enabled Google’s captcha but it will not work without SNI support from Prosody. Please see this tweet for further details:
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  553. Maranda Uh?
  554. Maranda That doesnt make sense... 🤣
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  557. Maranda Because no spam bot on xmpp can solve recaptcha
  558. Ge0rG Recaptcha can be bought from India
  559. Maranda Ge0rG: "chingalini" human solving yay 🤓
  560. Maranda Too much money for xmpp
  561. stpeter How much?
  562. Maranda Again the more I read the more *PEBCAK* resonates impedingly in my mind
  563. stpeter I don't know how much money people pay for XMPP spam vs. email spam....
  564. Maranda stpeter: too much, nothing pierced through mod_spim_block from when I implemented reCAPTCHA, and for nothing I mean nothing
  565. Maranda Not even just mail verification for IBR
  566. Licaon_Kter atom: get Maranda, the enemy of privacy, asking for email
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  568. Maranda Right
  569. Ge0rG And use recaptcha
  570. Maranda And sending stuff to evil google
  571. Maranda > And use recaptcha 💖💋
  572. Licaon_Kter Hey, I can't even solve reCaptcha, so it must be gud
  573. Maranda Licaon_Kter: well it works
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  575. Maranda It's numbers (for now) not xml confettis 🤷🏼‍♂️
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  589. Ge0rG I'm not doing any of those, but spammers on my server won't ever reach their audience, and get deleted promptly. And my users can just simply do IBR
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  596. atom Recaptcha is useful when adding contacts or first sending messages. Recaptcha at registration is ineffective. https://rucaptcha.com/ $0.60 = 1000 recaptcha solution
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  604. stpeter Interesting. That makes sense.
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  612. Licaon_Kter Martin: https://xmpp.is/2019/10/20/registrations-are-back-again/
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  615. Martin ?
  616. louiz’ just a response to your last link, I think
  617. Martin Aaand?
  618. Licaon_Kter Martin: and reCaptcha saves the day
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  621. Martin Ge0rg wanted to know when they deleted spammers, not when they added recaptcha…
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  623. Licaon_Kter Martin: right, just that it seemed they're given up
  624. Ge0rG So it's time to report to them again
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  646. atom > Ge0rg wanted to know when they deleted spammers, not when they added recaptcha… Martin: Use backup before mass bot registration
  647. Martin ?
  648. Martin I don't have registry open.
  649. atom Martin: incorrectly translated you
  650. Ge0rG What? Just restore from backup and lose everything that happened after it?
  651. atom Ge0rG: yes. xmpp.is used backup for delete 100 000 bot account
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  656. Ge0rG Because you can't just delete them?
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  658. atom I think this server has a daily backup
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  661. Ge0rG That doesn't matter
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  667. Maranda atom, but that doesn't work, *coughs*
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  670. tom Why was recaptcha chosen over any other captcha system?
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  676. Maranda tom, because it's the only one that _does something_?
  677. tom What is does something?
  678. tom I don't understand
  679. Maranda the opposite of _does nothing_
  680. tom I don't understand
  681. Maranda 🤷‍♂️
  682. Licaon_Kter tom: not bypassed
  683. tom Perhaps your doing something wrong them. The whole point of captchas are to stop bots
  684. atom > Why was recaptcha chosen over any other captcha system? recaptcha is a good captcha, but it is powerless against schoolchildren introducing captcha for 1 dollar per month.
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  687. tom » recaptcha is a good captcha It is really not in my experience. For one it false-positives 90% of the time if your not signed into a Google account or using a Google branded browser, it also leaks your metadata to Google which use it in nefarious ways which may not always be GDPR compliant or follow the correct privacy laws per jurisdiction, and a lot of people are not comfortable or OK with helping Google replace drivers with AI or listening to random audio recordings from people's homes.
  688. tom And other times it will just decide that it does not like you and make you infinitely solve visual puzzles
  689. atom tom: recaptcha has translation into all languages ​​of the world
  690. tom Recaptcha is especially a problem for the handicapped, and a lot of the times it will not let you solve audio based captchas
  691. tom Not to mention you must ping google to even load the javascript in, which is a privacy hazard in of itself
  692. Maranda > it also leaks your metadata to Google which use it in nefarious ways huhu care elaborating which such important metadata does it leak to google that it could use in such "nefarious" ways please?
  693. atom tom: recaptcha is a good captcha for stop bots, because it is not able to be solved by a bot.I'm talking about technology. google good or evil is a separate issue.
  694. tom It's not able to be solved by non-google using people either
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  698. atom people have to pay for solving captcha. if you need to enter a lot of captchas, the cost rises.
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  702. atom plus it slows down mass mailing. the number of people deciding on captcha is also limited.
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  706. tom There are plenty of replacement captcha services and self hosted solutions, as well as protocol-level options such as rate-limiting certain endpoints per ip range
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  708. tom And adaptive intrusion prevention systems
  709. atom even a simple captcha will cause problems for spammers if they receive it when adding a contact.
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  712. tom Just slapping a javascript captcha on something, and the worse one at that doesn't just *reduce* the amount of bots, it also reduces your legitimate traffic, angers users, and violates their privacy by allowing information disclosure to third parties
  713. tom I run ecommerce websites. There's a lot more at stake when your dealing with actual money is products than just a message passing system that can be used for spam
  714. atom tom: what other measures do you offer besides captcha?
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  728. Maranda still didn't get an answer.
  729. Maranda Huhu
  730. Ge0rG atom: today's xmpp spam can be easily detected and blocked without any captcha
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  735. Martin contains russian, contains something about coins and telegram links → spam
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  740. atom Martin: these are popular topics of discussion among Russians
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  742. Martin Ok, a message containing all three things can be a normal message?
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  748. atom Martin: Some spam bots divide one message into several and even lead a simple dialogue. Now this type of spam bots has become less popular.
  749. Ge0rG atom: the worst one so far just sent different versions of "hello" and spammed you when you responded
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  752. atom Ge0rG: yes
  753. WebPigeon has joined
  754. Ge0rG But I've only seen one such bot, with a single JID. Easy to block again
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  761. stpeter Oh I've seen several of those.
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  784. Ge0rG stpeter: please tell me their JIDs
  785. stpeter In the future I will. I didn't note them before.
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