XMPP Service Operators - 2020-03-24

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  120. tom Hey guys
  121. tom I think it's especially important to promote xmpp now of all times
  122. tom Everyone is looking for a way to communicate online with their friends and family
  123. tom Hopefully they choose XMPP and not some proprietary system
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  153. Jeybe > Everyone is looking for a way to communicate online with their friends and family tom: Yes via audio- and videochat. Not many xmpp-clients and xmpp-servers support that. I think conversejs and monal does. For textchat xmpp is fine, of course.
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  155. tom Which really sucks
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  158. tom Because the protocol is there
  159. tom Server supports it
  160. tom Most clients suck though in regards to jingle support
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  162. jonas’ server’s don’t need any special support for A/V
  163. jonas’ it’s all clients
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  166. jonas’ a TURN service associated with the XMPP server helps though
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  168. Jeybe jonas’: And in practice? Can most people connect to each other without TURN (so it's p2p then, isn't it?
  169. jonas’ Jeybe, in the worst case, audio via IBB will work (albeit probably with terrible latency)
  170. Jeybe jonas’: IBB?
  171. jonas’ In-Band Bytestreams
  172. jonas’ Jeybe, also, many home routers support UPnP which allows to temporarily open ports for this type of stuff. Clients may not, though.
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  175. jonas’ normally you’ll want to avoid TURN if you can either way, because it adds latency and is costly to the server operator. P2P (possibly with UPnP) should be preferred for small conferences. For large conferences you need something else entirely (like Jitsi Videobridge)
  176. Jeybe > In-Band Bytestreams So exchanging data via the xmpp-server / xml?
  177. jonas’ yes
  178. Jeybe Ok
  179. Jeybe Another thing, does the specification for audio- and videocalls include conferences with multiple persons or is it 1:1 only?
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  182. jonas’ that’s a very good question
  183. jonas’ I actually don’t know and it looks as if it does not
  184. jonas’ I actually don’t know and it looks as if it does not include multi-user calls
  185. jonas’ in which case we should kick the jitsi people to get their stuff spec’d, because it’s actually quite sane
  186. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0340.html
  187. jonas’ that’s the spec ^
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  190. Jeybe Focus agent... sound like the thing jitsi uses
  191. Jeybe Is it?
  192. jonas’ yes
  193. Link Mauve Their implementation is jicofo.
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  213. tom » [00:14:55] <jonas’> a TURN service associated with the XMPP server helps though turn? Isn't that supposed to be what the socks5 bytestream proxy is for?
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  217. tom » [00:18:30] <jonas’> Jeybe, also, many home routers support UPnP which allows to temporarily open ports for this type of stuff. Clients may not, though. Unnecessary if they have ipv6
  218. jonas’ tom, that’s (still) a pretty big *if*. And also many home routers will filter traffic on IPv6 by default, too.
  219. jonas’ so you still need UPnP to punch a hole in the firewall
  220. tom » [01:11:51] <jonas’> tom, that’s (still) a pretty big *if*. And also many home routers will filter traffic on IPv6 by default, too. That's stupid
  221. jonas’ it’s not
  222. jonas’ given the insecurity of the default windows installation
  223. jonas’ and given that you still easily get an open rpcbind server on a fresh debian installation
  224. jonas’ without even knowing
  225. jonas’ I’m pretty thankful for this type of sane defaults
  226. tom The rest of the world shouldn't have to suffer network wise because microsoft shits out another terrible proprietary OS
  227. jonas’ you also don’t want your mdns server being used in amplification attacks
  228. jonas’ note that all my examples except the first are 100% unrelated to windows
  229. jonas’ also, android phones
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  232. tom » [00:19:24] <jonas’> normally you’ll want to avoid TURN if you can either way, because it adds latency and is costly to the server operator. P2P (possibly with UPnP) should be preferred for small conferences. For large conferences you need something else entirely (like Jitsi Videobridge) what XMPP clients support av? And just one-on-one or multiuser?
  233. tom Does jitsi integrate with XMPP?
  234. jonas’ tom, Jitsi and Jitsi Meet are completely different pieces of software.
  235. jonas’ Jitsi is a more or less normal XMPP client which does jingle and can be used for 1:1 calls I think
  236. jonas’ Jitsi Meet is a highly integrated web conferencing suite which uses XMPP in the backend as signalling protocol (via BOSH)
  237. jonas’ Jitsi Meet doesn’t federate in the default setup though, and I don’t think it can be made to federate
  238. tom Is there any way to use jitsi meet without a web browser
  239. jonas’ no
  240. jonas’ well, yes
  241. jonas’ there are android and iOS apps
  242. tom Webrtc never works right
  243. jonas’ it odes
  244. jonas’ it does
  245. tom What about a linux or bsd program
  246. tom » [01:16:12] <jonas’> it does not in any of my testing
  247. jonas’ used jitsi-meet extensively in the past week, and we had virtually no issues
  248. jonas’ jitsi-meet does a few things to make webrtc more stable
  249. tom Last time i had to use something webrtc based it took 53 tries to get it working
  250. jonas’ like including a turn-like server
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  252. tom I'm really sick and tired and webapps
  253. jonas’ we all are
  254. jonas’ it works though
  255. tom It doesn't work
  256. jonas’ in contrast to all other free xmpp-based conferencing solutions.
  257. jonas’ have you tried jitsi-meet?
  258. jonas’ if not, you can’t say whether it works or not
  259. tom No, what i'm saying is that webrtc doesn't work
  260. jonas’ webrtc works just fine
  261. jonas’ like jingle
  262. jonas’ it’s essentially the same thing.
  263. tom Taking 53 tries is not what i call working
  264. jonas’ sure, that’s what you get without a turn server
  265. jonas’ because p2p sucks
  266. jonas’ because firewalls and nats
  267. tom It wasn't p2p
  268. jonas’ what was it then?
  269. jonas’ webrtc is p2p by default.
  270. tom The browser itself
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  272. jonas’ if you say so
  273. tom Almost all browsers besides google chrome or firefox (which you wouldn't use if you cared about privacy) turn off webrtc by default because it's implementation is so shotty
  274. tom And leaks info when using proxies
  275. tom There really needs to be a solution, that isn't just cramming more bs into a web browser
  276. tom That probably should never be there in the first place
  277. tom Which is what i'm asking
  278. Link Mauve tom, wanna contribute WebRTC support to some desktop XMPP client?
  279. Link Mauve So that it is compatible with Jitsi Meet?
  280. tom I don't want to contribute to anything with 'web' in the name
  281. Link Mauve Too bad then.
  282. tom What about SIP
  283. Link Mauve Why do SIP when you have Jingle already?
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  285. tom I've had videocalls before with a very old version of linphone
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  287. tom Conferences too
  288. tom Dial-by-direct-ip
  289. Link Mauve I’ve also had that using Ekiga, but they were fully unencrypted, required another channel to coordinate on, opening a port on each participants’ router, and were generally not very user-friendly.
  290. jonas’ (the part with the port could be solved by UPnP support in the tools)
  291. tom But they did work
  292. tom And work they did without 2gb+ of ram
  293. Link Mauve With modern XMPP clients, using Jingle for signaling and WebRTC for the transport, that can change.
  294. Link Mauve If you put aside your blind hate for a second and look at what it actually is.
  295. Link Mauve That is, a nice set of extensions above RTP.
  296. Link Mauve (Plus a JavaScript API, hence the name I guess, but you can totally ignore that part.)
  297. tom Oh god
  298. tom Javascript
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  313. tom Link Mauve: have you ever used tox?
  314. tom Or qtox
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  316. Link Mauve No, but I’ve read about their architecture, why?
  317. tom Well i was just thinking and asking around
  318. tom For anyone who has ever had a non-web-browser videocall before. It was something i am sure we had back in the early 2000s
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  320. Link Mauve Sure, many XMPP clients also had that.
  321. tom Apparently not. I guess we are in the stoneage still when it comes to videocalls. Standards suck (or at least implementations) so every company is going off and building their own thing
  322. Link Mauve Empathy, Gajim, I think Psi.
  323. Link Mauve Jitsi of course.
  324. tom Link Mauve: psi 'has it' but it doesn't actually work. It's just a reference point
  325. tom But i'm talking about multi-party
  326. tom Part lines for video
  327. tom *party
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  329. Link Mauve Multi-party is harder to do, especially if you want it to be efficient on the clients’ uplink.
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  331. Link Mauve Empathy did it the naïve way for instance, where each participant had a p2p connection with each other.
  332. tom Link Mauve: I mentioned qtox and tox because that's the only open source thing i have used in recent years where videocalls worked reliabily
  333. Link Mauve That means you send your own streams N-1 times.
  334. Link Mauve tom, IIRC Tox also does it that way, which means it doesn’t scale above a few participants.
  335. Link Mauve Depends on the emitter with the weakest uplink.
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  337. Link Mauve In a world where everyone has fiber, it would be fine.
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  339. Link Mauve We’re not in that world.
  340. jonas’ except for the terrible waste of resources
  341. tom Link Mauve: what if your MANET looked like this: https://www.open-mesh.org/projects/batman-adv/wiki/Multicast-optimizations
  342. jonas’ in a world with fiber and working multicast in the internet, now that’d be fun
  343. tom Your talking UNICAST
  344. jonas’ multicast in the internet does not work
  345. tom I know that
  346. tom But MANETS can be created over an entire region
  347. tom Town or county
  348. tom Bridged with VPN tunnels
  349. Link Mauve It would be nice in Cuba, but here in Europe everyone is using Internet with an ISP.
  350. tom And the batman-adv optimized multicast could ensure effective use of the vpn tunnels
  351. tom » [02:05:42] <Link Mauve> It would be nice in Cuba, but here in Europe everyone is using Internet with an ISP. It's funny that it's always the regimes with the practically more free internets
  352. jonas’ I’m sure that the unicast VPN tunnels do not impede the performacne of multicast at all /sarcasm
  353. tom jonas’: that's where the optimized multicast could come in
  354. tom Nowadays arm cores are dirt cheap
  355. tom We could make every node a router
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  370. Maranda huhu multicast jingleparty over ipsec/something else, *coughs* *buffer*, hi, *buffer*, hello *buffer*, been fun *buffer* :D
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  432. tom Tinc or wireguard
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