MattJ: Why fork prosody instead of working together to make prosody better?
insanityhas left
dinosaurdynastyhas left
sonnyhas left
tom
Maranda: how exactly does jitsi use XMPP? Can an XMPP user contact a jitsi user? I've never even been able to use jitisi, any time i go to an instance it locks me out and says "It looks like your using a browser we don't support, Please try again using Chrome or Firefox"
sonnyhas joined
tom
I dismissed it as more nonfree crapware under the guise of an open source license
dinosaurdynastyhas joined
tom
It reminds me of in the 90s websites
tom
"This site best viewer with Internet Explorer 5
tom
Or
tom
We don't support any browser other than internet explorer
tom
It's anti-competitive and flat out blocking people based on a useragent is retarded
tom
I figure that it reflects the developer's mentality. That since they are blocking non-big-tech browsers that they don't care about freedom and interoperability and in fact are hostile to it
What kind of support are they talking about anyways? For something under an open source license there is usually a disclaimer of liability
tom
I wish there were more native clients that supported jingle audio/video. Then I wouldn't have to deal with this anti-competitive web cancer
SouLhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
404.cityhas left
tom
At least in this case it's not saying ONE MORE STEP! Please solve endless captchas but the end effect is still the same. Denial of service
solhas left
solhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
rintinfinnhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
mimi89999has left
mimi89999has joined
solhas left
solhas joined
insanityhas joined
thndrbvr
Does that browser support modern specifications like WebRTC? I'm not sure what the cause is but I would first assume that that browser just doesn't have the required technologies built that that the web version of jitsi requires in order to run. Or am I misreading?
solhas left
solhas joined
tom
Yes
thndrbvr
Also, you're trying to visit https://jitsi.org I presume?
tom
I tried that
thndrbvr
And no addons or settings or blocking anything important?
tom
But currently i tried a privately run instance
thndrbvrshrugs
thndrbvr
I've never had any issues with the official jitsi program in the last several years.
insanityhas left
rintinfinnhas left
MattJ
Jitsi Meet uses XMPP but it's not a general-purpose client
insanityhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
insanityhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
ibikkhas joined
Douglas Terabytehas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
paulhas left
rintinfinnhas left
rintinfinnhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
holgerhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Melhas left
Melhas joined
Mel
Jitsi desktop does!
Mel
Though, Jitsi is trying to spread alot of awareness to it's newest Jitsi Meet program
MattJ
I never really liked their desktop client, and the team don't really work on it these days anyway
solhas left
solhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Melhas left
Melhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
Melhas left
Melhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Melhas left
Melhas joined
madmalkavhas joined
schorschhas left
schorschhas joined
jonas’
tom, so, re Jitsi Meet and browser support: they rely heavily on WebRTC and some stuff. The choice to ban certain browsers is to ensure a good user experience for everyone else. There was a time (and that may still be the case unless you’re using Firefox 76), where any firefox version would cause massive problems for every other user
tom
That's really a shit thing to do, regardless of the justification
tom
No offense to you jonas’ and I appreciate the explanation
tom
But if what your saying is true that just someone joining with a specific version of a specific browser is enough to crash the server, that doesn't speak well for the quality and reliability of the system
solhas left
solhas joined
tom
That's really reactionary instead of proactive
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
kusonekohas left
kusonekohas joined
404.cityhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
holgerhas left
holgerhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
MattJ
tom: the problem was a lack of support in Firefox for certain WebRTC features
rintinfinnhas joined
MattJ
The choice for Jitsi would be to make it only work in Chrome/Chromium or allow Firefox anyway and accept the instability (so they made it display a warning)
MattJ
The next couple of Firefox releases are supposed to fix the remaining issues I believe
MattJ
And some of the others the Jitsi team have already figured out ways to work around (such as bandwidth estimation)
jonas’
tom, it’s not crashing the server. the effects range from "massively increased bandwitdh use due to lack of firefox features" to "audio breaks even for non-firefox users because of webrtc stuff"
solhas left
solhas joined
jonas’
tom, those were at least the issues with "older" (pre-76) firefox versions, and I can fully understand that you lock that type of software out.
jonas’
and of course, you can always install your own jitsi meet deployment (been there did that) and remove the restrictions there -- it’s just an array of allowed versios.✎
jonas’
and of course, you can always install your own jitsi meet deployment (been there did that) and remove the restrictions there -- it’s just an array of allowed versions. ✏
jonas’
but not allowing crap implementations on your flagship platform makes sense to me.
jonas’
and they also (try to) work closely with firefox to improve it. it’s not like they "silently" lock out firefox, they file bug reports and provide info to make it work
jonas’
it’s just a process which takes time; firefox devs are hit by covid just like anyone else, and before covid the interest in such platforms was lower by orders of magnitude
rintinfinnhas left
ajeremiashas left
ajeremiashas joined
madmalkavhas left
madmalkavhas joined
insanityhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
robertooohas left
robertooohas joined
insanityhas left
Licaon_Kterhas joined
perflysthas joined
ludohas joined
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> MattJ: Why fork prosody instead of working together to make prosody better?
That was done in 2009(?), it's not just a fork anymore
solhas left
solhas joined
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> It's anti-competitive and flat out blocking people based on a useragent is retarded
Video is heavy, tte browser needs to handle it
Licaon_Kter
> tom, so, re Jitsi Meet and browser support: they rely heavily on WebRTC and some stuff. The choice to ban certain browsers is to ensure a good user experience for everyone else. There was a time (and that may still be the case unless you’re using Firefox 76), where any firefox version would cause massive problems for every other user
Privacy or Video chat, choose:
https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6230#issuecomment-616855160
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> how exactly does jitsi use XMPP? Can an XMPP user contact a jitsi user?
Jitsi Desktop is a normal client
Jitsi Meet...the users are in the MUC only for that video session not sure there's a need to be able to contact them, of course except if you want to use video
tom
It's not a browser blacklist
tom
It's a browser whitelist
Licaon_Kter
They already support Chrome/ium (and I guess Vivaldi/Opera)/Firefox/Safari, you are using what?
jonas’
tom, yes, because maintaining a blacklist with all those crappy chromium forks is not going to work ;)
tom
Well it blocked me
jonas’
because everyone and their dog thinks that they can write a browser just because they know how to slap a webview in a tab control
tom
And I'm not using a chromium fork
tom
Also
jonas’
what *are* you using then?
tom
That should be the users own right if they want to use a chromium fork
tom
XUL
Maranda
tom: erm Jitsi ain't Jitsi Meet btw
jonas’
if it’s not going to work with jitsi meet and potentially causes annoyances/harm to other users, it’s their right to not allow you in.
Maranda
Two different things
tom
What that does though
tom
It doesn't make people stop using it
Licaon_Kter
tom: you have rights, the JM devs don't? Host your own, disable Simulcast, done
tom
It just causes people to start tacking on a bunch of bs into their useragent string
tom
Licaon_Kter: that issue is not even applicable to the XUL engine though
tom
It doesn't even contain any Rust componets
Licaon_Kter
tom: i don't follow, pls link to your browser
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
tom
Just look at webserver logs of any chrome or safari browsed site
tom
Mozzila 5.0, safari (not) chrome version blah blah (not really), internet explorer 6, firefox 666
tom
Because web operators who didn't know any better started whitelisting useragent strings
tom
Browser just started adding every variation of every browser useragent under the sun
tom
Here
tom
I will pull a log entry from my server
tom
» [02/May/2020:REDACTED-0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 1379 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64)AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/66.0.3359.181 Safari/537.36"
jonas’
so?
tom
Is it mozzilla 5?
tom
Is it WIndows NT's internet explorer?
perflysthas left
tom
Is it KDE Konquer?
tom
No
tom
Is is firefox from the early 2000s?
tom
Aka Geck
tom
O
tom
Is it Chrome?
tom
Or is it Safari?
solhas left
tom
Nobody even knows anymore. It's just insanity.
solhas joined
Maranda
Windows NT 😂
tom
To give some reference for what a Useragent /SHOULD/ look like if supplied even at all:
tom: if you join (more than one, eg. One from Android plus one XUL browser) http://meet.jit.si/randomconferencename#config.disableSimulcast=true does not work?✎
solhas left
Licaon_Kter
tom: if you join (more than one, eg. One from Android plus one XUL browser) https://meet.jit.si/randomconferencename#config.disableSimulcast=true does not work? ✏
tom
All HTML5 web browsers are terrible abominations. This one is just a little less so
solhas joined
tom
Maybe instead of flat out blocking
tom
The webapp could gradeful degrade and/or offer adjusting that as a suggestion?
jonas’
it still degrades the service for everyone else
Licaon_Kter
tom: feel free to PR, but iirc if one client does that it forces all members to do the same
Licaon_Kter
Ninjaed :))
jonas’
it doesn’t force everyone to do the same, but everyone will feel the negative effects
perflysthas left
Licaon_Kter
That...yes..
tom
Licaon_Kter: I would if there's an actual address to send PRs and patches to
perflysthas joined
jonas’
tom, https://github.com/jitsi/
tom
Did you know that you can't even upload .patch files to github?
Licaon_Kter
jonas’: nope
jonas’
there’s the jitsi-meet repository with all the web frontend stuff, also jitsi-videobridge and jicofo repositoires
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
Licaon_Kter
Better link to meet directly....so many apps there with SIP and all that :))
tom
jonas’: some bloated webapp with 5 megs of google spyware javascript requiring you to sign up for a microsoft account to contribute to an open source project is not welcoming community contributed patches
jonas’
of course not
jonas’tunes out
Licaon_Kter
tom: send patches by email as usual
tom
Yes
tom
Either a maintainer email box or a mailinglist or a bugtracker like bugs.debian.org
Douglas Terabytehas left
Douglas Terabytehas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
madmalkavhas left
madmalkavhas joined
solhas left
tom
Future versions of Chrome are not even going to supply a useragent http header. Good riddance to. Exactly the kind of drastic thing we need to put a stop to useragent string discrimination
ijhas left
Licaon_Kter
And everyone will apply the Chrome quirks? Yeah..fun...
Even pozzilla in all their bad judgment recognize how using the useragent for different html is wrong
tom
And no Licaon_Kter
tom
The useragent header is not mandatory according to the HTTP spec
tom
It's only purpose is marketing
tom
Like X-Mailer header in email
tom
Or not disclosing what client your using in XMPP
tom
Not not responding to CTCP VERSION in IRC
tom
It's an HTTP thing not an HTML thing
tom
You can actually go all the way back to Fortran and how people got burned and learned to stop using proprietary vendor extensions to Fortran
solhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
colochonhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
404.cityhas left
perflysthas left
perflysthas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
perflysthas left
robertooohas left
robertooohas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Huxxhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
tom
Licaon_Kter: the plan is that hopefully ounce chrome takes the first plunge not supplying useragents it will give everybody else the ability to as well
tom
And without a practical way discriminate browsers, people will use graceful feature degradation
tom
Example being <script><noscript></noscript></script>
solhas left
solhas joined
Marandahas left
Marandahas joined
kikuchiyohas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
Echo1has left
Echo1has joined
MattJ
I'd love to see video conferencing implemented in <noscript> tags
rintinfinnhas left
rintinfinnhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Jonnyhas joined
Jonnyhas left
Jonnyhas joined
Jonnyhas left
solhas left
solhas joined
cuchas joined
ijhas left
ijhas joined
Youssefhas joined
Martinhas left
Martinhas joined
ijhas left
ijhas joined
seantoddhas left
solhas left
solhas joined
perflysthas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
perflysthas left
perflysthas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
10rokitahas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
perflysthas left
insanityhas joined
ibikkhas left
insanityhas left
ibikkhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
insanityhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
insanityhas left
alienhas left
alienhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
insanityhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
tom
That's probably not possible but i have seen interactive chat in noscript
tom
Which is pretty cool
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Youssefhas left
404.cityhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
Youssefhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
404.cityhas left
im0209has joined
rintinfinnhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
rintinfinnhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
im0209has left
Nils (10rokita)has left
Nils (10rokita)has joined
Youssefhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
im0209has joined
solhas left
solhas joined
404.cityhas joined
paulhas joined
im0209has left
Youssefhas joined
colochonhas left
colochonhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
404.cityhas left
solhas left
solhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Youssefhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
Youssefhas joined
Youssefhas left
nov_-novhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Nils (10rokita)has left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
holgerhas left
10rokitahas left
Nils (10rokita)has joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
perflysthas joined
ibikkhas left
ibikkhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
perflysthas left
Youssefhas joined
perflysthas joined
insanityhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
perflysthas left
perflysthas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Youssefhas left
insanityhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
perflysthas left
lorddavidiiihas left
sonnyhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
ludohas left
ludohas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
ibikkhas left
ibikkhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
rintinfinnhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
rintinfinnhas left
rintinfinnhas joined
insanityhas left
ajeremiashas left
ajeremiashas joined
rintinfinnhas left
insanityhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
rintinfinnhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
holgerhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Nils (10rokita)has left
Nils (10rokita)has joined
insanityhas left
ajeremiashas left
solhas left
solhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
perflysthas joined
insanityhas joined
perflysthas left
perflysthas joined
insanityhas left
insanityhas joined
insanityhas left
insanityhas joined
insanityhas left
insanityhas joined
insanityhas left
insanityhas joined
solhas left
solhas joined
Maranda
hmm aw mod_s2s_keepalive loaded on (muc.)xmpp.org as well :/