XMPP Service Operators - 2020-05-03

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  71. tom

    MattJ: Why fork prosody instead of working together to make prosody better?

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  75. tom

    Maranda: how exactly does jitsi use XMPP? Can an XMPP user contact a jitsi user? I've never even been able to use jitisi, any time i go to an instance it locks me out and says "It looks like your using a browser we don't support, Please try again using Chrome or Firefox"

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  77. tom

    I dismissed it as more nonfree crapware under the guise of an open source license

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  79. tom

    It reminds me of in the 90s websites

  80. tom

    "This site best viewer with Internet Explorer 5

  81. tom


  82. tom

    We don't support any browser other than internet explorer

  83. tom

    It's anti-competitive and flat out blocking people based on a useragent is retarded

  84. tom

    I figure that it reflects the developer's mentality. That since they are blocking non-big-tech browsers that they don't care about freedom and interoperability and in fact are hostile to it

  85. tom


  86. tom

    What kind of support are they talking about anyways? For something under an open source license there is usually a disclaimer of liability

  87. tom

    I wish there were more native clients that supported jingle audio/video. Then I wouldn't have to deal with this anti-competitive web cancer

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  91. tom

    At least in this case it's not saying ONE MORE STEP! Please solve endless captchas but the end effect is still the same. Denial of service

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  103. thndrbvr

    Does that browser support modern specifications like WebRTC? I'm not sure what the cause is but I would first assume that that browser just doesn't have the required technologies built that that the web version of jitsi requires in order to run. Or am I misreading?

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  106. tom


  107. thndrbvr

    Also, you're trying to visit https://jitsi.org I presume?

  108. tom

    I tried that

  109. thndrbvr

    And no addons or settings or blocking anything important?

  110. tom

    But currently i tried a privately run instance

  111. thndrbvr shrugs

  112. thndrbvr

    I've never had any issues with the official jitsi program in the last several years.

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  115. MattJ

    Jitsi Meet uses XMPP but it's not a general-purpose client

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  136. Mel

    Jitsi desktop does!

  137. Mel

    Though, Jitsi is trying to spread alot of awareness to it's newest Jitsi Meet program

  138. MattJ

    I never really liked their desktop client, and the team don't really work on it these days anyway

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  161. jonas’

    tom, so, re Jitsi Meet and browser support: they rely heavily on WebRTC and some stuff. The choice to ban certain browsers is to ensure a good user experience for everyone else. There was a time (and that may still be the case unless you’re using Firefox 76), where any firefox version would cause massive problems for every other user

  162. tom

    That's really a shit thing to do, regardless of the justification

  163. tom

    No offense to you jonas’ and I appreciate the explanation

  164. tom

    But if what your saying is true that just someone joining with a specific version of a specific browser is enough to crash the server, that doesn't speak well for the quality and reliability of the system

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  167. tom

    That's really reactionary instead of proactive

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  178. MattJ

    tom: the problem was a lack of support in Firefox for certain WebRTC features

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  180. MattJ

    The choice for Jitsi would be to make it only work in Chrome/Chromium or allow Firefox anyway and accept the instability (so they made it display a warning)

  181. MattJ

    The next couple of Firefox releases are supposed to fix the remaining issues I believe

  182. MattJ

    And some of the others the Jitsi team have already figured out ways to work around (such as bandwidth estimation)

  183. jonas’

    tom, it’s not crashing the server. the effects range from "massively increased bandwitdh use due to lack of firefox features" to "audio breaks even for non-firefox users because of webrtc stuff"

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  186. jonas’

    tom, those were at least the issues with "older" (pre-76) firefox versions, and I can fully understand that you lock that type of software out.

  187. jonas’

    and of course, you can always install your own jitsi meet deployment (been there did that) and remove the restrictions there -- it’s just an array of allowed versios.

  188. jonas’

    and of course, you can always install your own jitsi meet deployment (been there did that) and remove the restrictions there -- it’s just an array of allowed versions.

  189. jonas’

    but not allowing crap implementations on your flagship platform makes sense to me.

  190. jonas’

    and they also (try to) work closely with firefox to improve it. it’s not like they "silently" lock out firefox, they file bug reports and provide info to make it work

  191. jonas’

    it’s just a process which takes time; firefox devs are hit by covid just like anyone else, and before covid the interest in such platforms was lower by orders of magnitude

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  205. Licaon_Kter

    tom: > MattJ: Why fork prosody instead of working together to make prosody better? That was done in 2009(?), it's not just a fork anymore

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  208. Licaon_Kter

    tom: > It's anti-competitive and flat out blocking people based on a useragent is retarded Video is heavy, tte browser needs to handle it

  209. Licaon_Kter

    > tom, so, re Jitsi Meet and browser support: they rely heavily on WebRTC and some stuff. The choice to ban certain browsers is to ensure a good user experience for everyone else. There was a time (and that may still be the case unless you’re using Firefox 76), where any firefox version would cause massive problems for every other user Privacy or Video chat, choose: https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6230#issuecomment-616855160

  210. Licaon_Kter

    tom: > how exactly does jitsi use XMPP? Can an XMPP user contact a jitsi user? Jitsi Desktop is a normal client Jitsi Meet...the users are in the MUC only for that video session not sure there's a need to be able to contact them, of course except if you want to use video

  211. tom

    It's not a browser blacklist

  212. tom

    It's a browser whitelist

  213. Licaon_Kter

    They already support Chrome/ium (and I guess Vivaldi/Opera)/Firefox/Safari, you are using what?

  214. jonas’

    tom, yes, because maintaining a blacklist with all those crappy chromium forks is not going to work ;)

  215. tom

    Well it blocked me

  216. jonas’

    because everyone and their dog thinks that they can write a browser just because they know how to slap a webview in a tab control

  217. tom

    And I'm not using a chromium fork

  218. tom


  219. jonas’

    what *are* you using then?

  220. tom

    That should be the users own right if they want to use a chromium fork

  221. tom


  222. Maranda

    tom: erm Jitsi ain't Jitsi Meet btw

  223. jonas’

    if it’s not going to work with jitsi meet and potentially causes annoyances/harm to other users, it’s their right to not allow you in.

  224. Maranda

    Two different things

  225. tom

    What that does though

  226. tom

    It doesn't make people stop using it

  227. Licaon_Kter

    tom: you have rights, the JM devs don't? Host your own, disable Simulcast, done

  228. tom

    It just causes people to start tacking on a bunch of bs into their useragent string

  229. tom

    Licaon_Kter: that issue is not even applicable to the XUL engine though

  230. tom

    It doesn't even contain any Rust componets

  231. Licaon_Kter

    tom: i don't follow, pls link to your browser

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  234. tom

    Just look at webserver logs of any chrome or safari browsed site

  235. tom

    Mozzila 5.0, safari (not) chrome version blah blah (not really), internet explorer 6, firefox 666

  236. tom

    Because web operators who didn't know any better started whitelisting useragent strings

  237. tom

    Browser just started adding every variation of every browser useragent under the sun

  238. tom


  239. tom

    I will pull a log entry from my server

  240. tom

    » [02/May/2020:REDACTED-0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 1379 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64)AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/66.0.3359.181 Safari/537.36"

  241. jonas’


  242. tom

    Is it mozzilla 5?

  243. tom

    Is it WIndows NT's internet explorer?

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  245. tom

    Is it KDE Konquer?

  246. tom


  247. tom

    Is is firefox from the early 2000s?

  248. tom

    Aka Geck

  249. tom


  250. tom

    Is it Chrome?

  251. tom

    Or is it Safari?

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  253. tom

    Nobody even knows anymore. It's just insanity.

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  255. Maranda

    Windows NT 😂

  256. tom

    To give some reference for what a Useragent /SHOULD/ look like if supplied even at all:

  257. tom

    [03/May/2020:REDACTED -0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 821 "https://redactedrefererer/" "NetSurf/3.9 (Linux)"

  258. Maranda

    The new Microsoft Edge is a fork of Chromium basically for who doesn't know already

  259. jonas’

    tom, are you a web developer?

  260. tom

    All this insanity in that one little HTTP header to work around webmasters using the useragent to supply different html per useragent match

  261. tom

    Today, web browser even ship with a HARDCODED LIST of per-domain useragent overrides to bypass this

  262. tom

    *web browsers

  263. tom

    jonas’: systems engineer

  264. jonas’

    why does it matter to you then?

  265. tom

    Bandend stuff, although i do front end too when needed

  266. Licaon_Kter

    tom: we know UserAgent is shit and it will go away Did I miss when you linked to which actual browser you use?

  267. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, "XUL", so I suppose a crappy pre-rust firefox fork

  268. tom

    Licaon_Kter: https://git.nuegia.net/webbrowser.git/

  269. Licaon_Kter

    At least it's not Palemoon amirite? :)

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  272. Licaon_Kter

    tom: if you join (more than one, eg. One from Android plus one XUL browser) http://meet.jit.si/randomconferencename#config.disableSimulcast=true does not work?

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  274. Licaon_Kter

    tom: if you join (more than one, eg. One from Android plus one XUL browser) https://meet.jit.si/randomconferencename#config.disableSimulcast=true does not work?

  275. tom

    All HTML5 web browsers are terrible abominations. This one is just a little less so

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  277. tom

    Maybe instead of flat out blocking

  278. tom

    The webapp could gradeful degrade and/or offer adjusting that as a suggestion?

  279. jonas’

    it still degrades the service for everyone else

  280. Licaon_Kter

    tom: feel free to PR, but iirc if one client does that it forces all members to do the same

  281. Licaon_Kter

    Ninjaed :))

  282. jonas’

    it doesn’t force everyone to do the same, but everyone will feel the negative effects

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  284. Licaon_Kter


  285. tom

    Licaon_Kter: I would if there's an actual address to send PRs and patches to

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  287. jonas’

    tom, https://github.com/jitsi/

  288. tom

    Did you know that you can't even upload .patch files to github?

  289. Licaon_Kter

    jonas’: nope

  290. jonas’

    there’s the jitsi-meet repository with all the web frontend stuff, also jitsi-videobridge and jicofo repositoires

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  292. Licaon_Kter

    Better link to meet directly....so many apps there with SIP and all that :))

  293. tom

    jonas’: some bloated webapp with 5 megs of google spyware javascript requiring you to sign up for a microsoft account to contribute to an open source project is not welcoming community contributed patches

  294. jonas’

    of course not

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  296. Licaon_Kter

    tom: send patches by email as usual

  297. tom


  298. tom

    Either a maintainer email box or a mailinglist or a bugtracker like bugs.debian.org

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  306. tom

    Future versions of Chrome are not even going to supply a useragent http header. Good riddance to. Exactly the kind of drastic thing we need to put a stop to useragent string discrimination

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  308. Licaon_Kter

    And everyone will apply the Chrome quirks? Yeah..fun...

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  310. tom


  311. tom

    Even pozzilla in all their bad judgment recognize how using the useragent for different html is wrong

  312. tom

    And no Licaon_Kter

  313. tom

    The useragent header is not mandatory according to the HTTP spec

  314. tom

    It's only purpose is marketing

  315. tom

    Like X-Mailer header in email

  316. tom

    Or not disclosing what client your using in XMPP

  317. tom

    Not not responding to CTCP VERSION in IRC

  318. tom

    It's an HTTP thing not an HTML thing

  319. tom

    You can actually go all the way back to Fortran and how people got burned and learned to stop using proprietary vendor extensions to Fortran

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  341. tom

    Licaon_Kter: the plan is that hopefully ounce chrome takes the first plunge not supplying useragents it will give everybody else the ability to as well

  342. tom

    And without a practical way discriminate browsers, people will use graceful feature degradation

  343. tom

    Example being <script><noscript></noscript></script>

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  353. MattJ

    I'd love to see video conferencing implemented in <noscript> tags

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  408. tom

    That's probably not possible but i have seen interactive chat in noscript

  409. tom

    Which is pretty cool

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  547. Maranda

    hmm aw mod_s2s_keepalive loaded on (muc.)xmpp.org as well :/

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