XMPP Service Operators - 2020-05-03

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  71. tom MattJ: Why fork prosody instead of working together to make prosody better?
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  75. tom Maranda: how exactly does jitsi use XMPP? Can an XMPP user contact a jitsi user? I've never even been able to use jitisi, any time i go to an instance it locks me out and says "It looks like your using a browser we don't support, Please try again using Chrome or Firefox"
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  77. tom I dismissed it as more nonfree crapware under the guise of an open source license
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  79. tom It reminds me of in the 90s websites
  80. tom "This site best viewer with Internet Explorer 5
  81. tom Or
  82. tom We don't support any browser other than internet explorer
  83. tom It's anti-competitive and flat out blocking people based on a useragent is retarded
  84. tom I figure that it reflects the developer's mentality. That since they are blocking non-big-tech browsers that they don't care about freedom and interoperability and in fact are hostile to it
  85. tom https://upload.nuegia.net/ca9b8918-2d96-4739-ac04-3fe950f06aae/screenshot.png
  86. tom What kind of support are they talking about anyways? For something under an open source license there is usually a disclaimer of liability
  87. tom I wish there were more native clients that supported jingle audio/video. Then I wouldn't have to deal with this anti-competitive web cancer
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  91. tom At least in this case it's not saying ONE MORE STEP! Please solve endless captchas but the end effect is still the same. Denial of service
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  103. thndrbvr Does that browser support modern specifications like WebRTC? I'm not sure what the cause is but I would first assume that that browser just doesn't have the required technologies built that that the web version of jitsi requires in order to run. Or am I misreading?
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  106. tom Yes
  107. thndrbvr Also, you're trying to visit https://jitsi.org I presume?
  108. tom I tried that
  109. thndrbvr And no addons or settings or blocking anything important?
  110. tom But currently i tried a privately run instance
  111. thndrbvr shrugs
  112. thndrbvr I've never had any issues with the official jitsi program in the last several years.
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  115. MattJ Jitsi Meet uses XMPP but it's not a general-purpose client
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  136. Mel Jitsi desktop does!
  137. Mel Though, Jitsi is trying to spread alot of awareness to it's newest Jitsi Meet program
  138. MattJ I never really liked their desktop client, and the team don't really work on it these days anyway
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  161. jonas’ tom, so, re Jitsi Meet and browser support: they rely heavily on WebRTC and some stuff. The choice to ban certain browsers is to ensure a good user experience for everyone else. There was a time (and that may still be the case unless you’re using Firefox 76), where any firefox version would cause massive problems for every other user
  162. tom That's really a shit thing to do, regardless of the justification
  163. tom No offense to you jonas’ and I appreciate the explanation
  164. tom But if what your saying is true that just someone joining with a specific version of a specific browser is enough to crash the server, that doesn't speak well for the quality and reliability of the system
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  167. tom That's really reactionary instead of proactive
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  178. MattJ tom: the problem was a lack of support in Firefox for certain WebRTC features
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  180. MattJ The choice for Jitsi would be to make it only work in Chrome/Chromium or allow Firefox anyway and accept the instability (so they made it display a warning)
  181. MattJ The next couple of Firefox releases are supposed to fix the remaining issues I believe
  182. MattJ And some of the others the Jitsi team have already figured out ways to work around (such as bandwidth estimation)
  183. jonas’ tom, it’s not crashing the server. the effects range from "massively increased bandwitdh use due to lack of firefox features" to "audio breaks even for non-firefox users because of webrtc stuff"
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  186. jonas’ tom, those were at least the issues with "older" (pre-76) firefox versions, and I can fully understand that you lock that type of software out.
  187. jonas’ and of course, you can always install your own jitsi meet deployment (been there did that) and remove the restrictions there -- it’s just an array of allowed versios.
  188. jonas’ and of course, you can always install your own jitsi meet deployment (been there did that) and remove the restrictions there -- it’s just an array of allowed versions.
  189. jonas’ but not allowing crap implementations on your flagship platform makes sense to me.
  190. jonas’ and they also (try to) work closely with firefox to improve it. it’s not like they "silently" lock out firefox, they file bug reports and provide info to make it work
  191. jonas’ it’s just a process which takes time; firefox devs are hit by covid just like anyone else, and before covid the interest in such platforms was lower by orders of magnitude
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  205. Licaon_Kter tom: > MattJ: Why fork prosody instead of working together to make prosody better? That was done in 2009(?), it's not just a fork anymore
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  208. Licaon_Kter tom: > It's anti-competitive and flat out blocking people based on a useragent is retarded Video is heavy, tte browser needs to handle it
  209. Licaon_Kter > tom, so, re Jitsi Meet and browser support: they rely heavily on WebRTC and some stuff. The choice to ban certain browsers is to ensure a good user experience for everyone else. There was a time (and that may still be the case unless you’re using Firefox 76), where any firefox version would cause massive problems for every other user Privacy or Video chat, choose: https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6230#issuecomment-616855160
  210. Licaon_Kter tom: > how exactly does jitsi use XMPP? Can an XMPP user contact a jitsi user? Jitsi Desktop is a normal client Jitsi Meet...the users are in the MUC only for that video session not sure there's a need to be able to contact them, of course except if you want to use video
  211. tom It's not a browser blacklist
  212. tom It's a browser whitelist
  213. Licaon_Kter They already support Chrome/ium (and I guess Vivaldi/Opera)/Firefox/Safari, you are using what?
  214. jonas’ tom, yes, because maintaining a blacklist with all those crappy chromium forks is not going to work ;)
  215. tom Well it blocked me
  216. jonas’ because everyone and their dog thinks that they can write a browser just because they know how to slap a webview in a tab control
  217. tom And I'm not using a chromium fork
  218. tom Also
  219. jonas’ what *are* you using then?
  220. tom That should be the users own right if they want to use a chromium fork
  221. tom XUL
  222. Maranda tom: erm Jitsi ain't Jitsi Meet btw
  223. jonas’ if it’s not going to work with jitsi meet and potentially causes annoyances/harm to other users, it’s their right to not allow you in.
  224. Maranda Two different things
  225. tom What that does though
  226. tom It doesn't make people stop using it
  227. Licaon_Kter tom: you have rights, the JM devs don't? Host your own, disable Simulcast, done
  228. tom It just causes people to start tacking on a bunch of bs into their useragent string
  229. tom Licaon_Kter: that issue is not even applicable to the XUL engine though
  230. tom It doesn't even contain any Rust componets
  231. Licaon_Kter tom: i don't follow, pls link to your browser
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  234. tom Just look at webserver logs of any chrome or safari browsed site
  235. tom Mozzila 5.0, safari (not) chrome version blah blah (not really), internet explorer 6, firefox 666
  236. tom Because web operators who didn't know any better started whitelisting useragent strings
  237. tom Browser just started adding every variation of every browser useragent under the sun
  238. tom Here
  239. tom I will pull a log entry from my server
  240. tom » [02/May/2020:REDACTED-0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 1379 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64)AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/66.0.3359.181 Safari/537.36"
  241. jonas’ so?
  242. tom Is it mozzilla 5?
  243. tom Is it WIndows NT's internet explorer?
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  245. tom Is it KDE Konquer?
  246. tom No
  247. tom Is is firefox from the early 2000s?
  248. tom Aka Geck
  249. tom O
  250. tom Is it Chrome?
  251. tom Or is it Safari?
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  253. tom Nobody even knows anymore. It's just insanity.
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  255. Maranda Windows NT 😂
  256. tom To give some reference for what a Useragent /SHOULD/ look like if supplied even at all:
  257. tom [03/May/2020:REDACTED -0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 821 "https://redactedrefererer/" "NetSurf/3.9 (Linux)"
  258. Maranda The new Microsoft Edge is a fork of Chromium basically for who doesn't know already
  259. jonas’ tom, are you a web developer?
  260. tom All this insanity in that one little HTTP header to work around webmasters using the useragent to supply different html per useragent match
  261. tom Today, web browser even ship with a HARDCODED LIST of per-domain useragent overrides to bypass this
  262. tom *web browsers
  263. tom jonas’: systems engineer
  264. jonas’ why does it matter to you then?
  265. tom Bandend stuff, although i do front end too when needed
  266. Licaon_Kter tom: we know UserAgent is shit and it will go away Did I miss when you linked to which actual browser you use?
  267. jonas’ Licaon_Kter, "XUL", so I suppose a crappy pre-rust firefox fork
  268. tom Licaon_Kter: https://git.nuegia.net/webbrowser.git/
  269. Licaon_Kter At least it's not Palemoon amirite? :)
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  272. Licaon_Kter tom: if you join (more than one, eg. One from Android plus one XUL browser) http://meet.jit.si/randomconferencename#config.disableSimulcast=true does not work?
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  274. Licaon_Kter tom: if you join (more than one, eg. One from Android plus one XUL browser) https://meet.jit.si/randomconferencename#config.disableSimulcast=true does not work?
  275. tom All HTML5 web browsers are terrible abominations. This one is just a little less so
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  277. tom Maybe instead of flat out blocking
  278. tom The webapp could gradeful degrade and/or offer adjusting that as a suggestion?
  279. jonas’ it still degrades the service for everyone else
  280. Licaon_Kter tom: feel free to PR, but iirc if one client does that it forces all members to do the same
  281. Licaon_Kter Ninjaed :))
  282. jonas’ it doesn’t force everyone to do the same, but everyone will feel the negative effects
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  284. Licaon_Kter That...yes..
  285. tom Licaon_Kter: I would if there's an actual address to send PRs and patches to
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  287. jonas’ tom, https://github.com/jitsi/
  288. tom Did you know that you can't even upload .patch files to github?
  289. Licaon_Kter jonas’: nope
  290. jonas’ there’s the jitsi-meet repository with all the web frontend stuff, also jitsi-videobridge and jicofo repositoires
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  292. Licaon_Kter Better link to meet directly....so many apps there with SIP and all that :))
  293. tom jonas’: some bloated webapp with 5 megs of google spyware javascript requiring you to sign up for a microsoft account to contribute to an open source project is not welcoming community contributed patches
  294. jonas’ of course not
  295. jonas’ tunes out
  296. Licaon_Kter tom: send patches by email as usual
  297. tom Yes
  298. tom Either a maintainer email box or a mailinglist or a bugtracker like bugs.debian.org
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  306. tom Future versions of Chrome are not even going to supply a useragent http header. Good riddance to. Exactly the kind of drastic thing we need to put a stop to useragent string discrimination
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  308. Licaon_Kter And everyone will apply the Chrome quirks? Yeah..fun...
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  310. tom https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Browser_detection_using_the_user_agent
  311. tom Even pozzilla in all their bad judgment recognize how using the useragent for different html is wrong
  312. tom And no Licaon_Kter
  313. tom The useragent header is not mandatory according to the HTTP spec
  314. tom It's only purpose is marketing
  315. tom Like X-Mailer header in email
  316. tom Or not disclosing what client your using in XMPP
  317. tom Not not responding to CTCP VERSION in IRC
  318. tom It's an HTTP thing not an HTML thing
  319. tom You can actually go all the way back to Fortran and how people got burned and learned to stop using proprietary vendor extensions to Fortran
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  341. tom Licaon_Kter: the plan is that hopefully ounce chrome takes the first plunge not supplying useragents it will give everybody else the ability to as well
  342. tom And without a practical way discriminate browsers, people will use graceful feature degradation
  343. tom Example being <script><noscript></noscript></script>
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  353. MattJ I'd love to see video conferencing implemented in <noscript> tags
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  408. tom That's probably not possible but i have seen interactive chat in noscript
  409. tom Which is pretty cool
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  547. Maranda hmm aw mod_s2s_keepalive loaded on (muc.)xmpp.org as well :/
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