XMPP Service Operators

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00:02:04 kryptic is this where i can come to learn about hostiing an xmpp server?
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00:28:00 Ellenor Malik Yeah sure
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08:21:22 mike There are worse places you could have come to, for sure.
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08:27:00 Ge0rG kryptic: don't run a public xmpp server.
08:28:17 kryptic Ge0rG: what do you mean?
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08:29:17 a don't run a public XMPP server, destroy the federation
08:30:13 tom Why not? Spam?
08:30:15 jonas’ kryptic, do not run an XMPP server with open registration.
08:30:22 jonas’ but of course, you should federate :)
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08:31:11 mike Or do run one if you're really feeling the call, but be aware of what you're in for.
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08:31:24 a do not run an XMPP server with open registration, destroy the accessibility
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08:32:37 jonas’ mike, that, exactly
08:32:48 jonas’ if you are deterred by a person saying "don’t" then you probably are not up for it :)
08:33:01 jonas’ (and if you don’t ask "why", then we already know we need to be on the watch for a new spam source)
08:33:08 mike heh yeah
08:33:41 jonas’ however, I agree that the term "public" is ambiguous and may be taken as referring to federation
08:33:59 Ge0rG a: I run a server with IBR, and I have deleted tens thousands of spam accounts.
08:34:16 tom Tens of thousands!?
08:34:31 mike that's not hard to rack up.
08:34:31 Ge0rG tom: yes
08:34:47 a on the other hand, spam problem is easily mitigated on the receiver server's side
08:34:56 a but that is very hard
08:35:20 a since you have to enable additional plugin in the configuration
08:35:21 tom How?
08:35:37 tom Are there guides on metigating xmpp spam like there is for smtp?
08:36:20 Django Tens of thousands sounds like a lot of work?
08:36:34 jonas’ Django, hence he goes around and tell everyone to not do it ;)
08:36:44 jonas’ (unless they know what they’re in for)
08:38:37 kryptic Ge0rG: I wanted a private one, not public
08:38:40 Django And I guess not taking care of spam accounts might lead to other servers stopping federating with me?
08:38:40 a tom: mod_block_strangers exists for ejabberd, for example
08:38:42 mike spam detection is easy - just need one rule. did user send a contact request followed by "privet!"? block, done. 😀
08:39:11 tom That's not a real solution
08:39:19 a nice piece of xenophobia
08:39:25 tom That's a reactionary response
08:39:28 a congratulations
08:39:30 jonas’ a, mod_block_strangers is an excellent example of breaking accessibility :)
08:39:47 mike it's a joke. it's an extremely common bot.
08:40:05 jonas’ Django, yes: see https://github.com/JabberSPAM/blacklist and https://github.com/JabberSPAM/jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto
08:40:11 mike I noticed the last wave was mixing up the greeting now though
08:40:13 tom A, block_strangers is the nuclear option
08:40:20 jonas’ Django, but you’ll receive a gentle warning first, if we find a way to contact you ;)
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08:40:49 mike blocking strangers is something best left as a per-user pref, honestly.
08:40:57 tom I tell people not to make an account on 404.city because of that
08:40:59 jonas’ mike, agreed
08:41:16 a jonas’: if you have better ideas or suggestions, you are very welcome to contribute to some open source project. ejabberd awaits. just introducing more hurdles to mitigate spam is a lazy man's approach
08:41:26 jonas’ a, :-)
08:41:58 jonas’ a, emitting servers should handle the spam, not receiving.
08:42:02 jonas’ and if they can’t, they should close IBR
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08:42:09 jonas’ and if they don’t, they’ll be stopped from federating.
08:42:14 a says who?
08:42:16 jonas’ I do
08:42:24 jonas’ and a few others do, too, see that manifesto
08:42:24 a thanks for your opinion
08:42:37 jonas’ a, you’re welcome! I’m glad you like to hear it!
08:42:46 a never seen this manifesto
08:42:54 jonas’ it was sent to various mailing lists I think
08:42:59 jonas’ back when it was started
08:43:01 Django jonas’: thanks, my server is private, but this is very interesting should I consider creating a public one. But since legislation in the EU does not promise a great future for communication service providers, I might abstain from this idea anyway.
08:43:28 Ge0rG Django: I'm not sure what part of EU legislation you see as problematic
08:44:02 tom Django: mod_darknet
08:44:09 Ge0rG maybe the part about not spying on your users?
08:44:17 tom If your local regulation sucks just install mod_darknet
08:44:30 Ge0rG tom: rent a box in the CyberBunker?
08:44:38 tom No
08:44:47 tom Tor and I2P is enough
08:45:17 jonas’ talk about accessiblity, eh?
08:45:41 tom Regarding spam though, is there anything more nuanced than an XMPP equivalent of RBLs
08:45:53 tom Like is there an xmpp spamassasin?
08:46:44 Ge0rG tom: XMPP spam is like the first generation of email spam, can be filtered by simple pattern matching
08:46:47 tom Dcc (distributed checksum clearinghouse)
08:46:56 tom Oh
08:47:29 tom In that case I think a DCC would be very helpful
08:48:03 tom We can share fuzzy-hashes automaticity and block if we spot too many of the same showing up across the world
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08:48:34 tom https://www.rhyolite.com/dcc/
08:49:10 Ge0rG tom: you'll end up blocking all short greetings and emoji responses
08:49:18 vanitasvitae I was about to say
08:49:32 vanitasvitae "Hi" would be blocked pretty soon 😛
08:49:44 tom Hi isn't blocked in email
08:49:55 vanitasvitae you'd probably have to limit this to longer messages
08:50:05 jonas’ longer messages are practically gone now
08:50:11 jonas’ those are dealt with
08:50:17 jonas’ the current fun part is subscription request + one-line greeting
08:50:19 vanitasvitae is that so?
08:50:23 jonas’ it is so
08:50:30 tom Oh those are annoying
08:50:37 vanitasvitae the spam that I receive is mostly ~30 lines or so
08:51:13 vanitasvitae but I use a personal server, so I probably only receive a limited subset of all the spam 😀
08:51:43 vanitasvitae jonas’, never received something of that sort *knock on wood*
08:51:54 jonas’ vanitasvitae, I get it occasionally.
08:52:14 tom Are just thought those are people with very buggy clients that kept re-sending
08:52:19 vanitasvitae I rarely get subscriptions without any text
08:52:33 jonas’ tom, nope, once you react you get a wall of spam
08:52:33 tom Because i don't accept rosters from people i don't know
08:52:51 jonas’ which is then not filtered by some filters because you have a roster subscription ...
08:53:56 tom Would it make sense to make a proof-of-work XEP?
08:54:09 Ge0rG tom: no
08:54:10 tom Like we have a captcha xep
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08:55:56 jonas’ https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt /me ticks: [x] technical [x] It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it [x] Extreme profitability of spam [x] Sending xmpp messages should be free [x] Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
08:56:29 jonas’ plus my custom: Mobile users will kill you for that
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08:56:50 Django https://upload.ppmx.org/upload/2dbc0d0b-2c48-48bd-a71e-ed316aedde0e/IMG_20200730_105615.jpg
08:57:20 tom It's always one of the to
08:57:23 tom Two
08:57:28 Django Ge0rG: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/communication-eu-security-union-strategy.pdf
08:57:30 Ge0rG Django: yes, we need to fight that
08:57:41 tom https://upload.nuegia.net/ceb50d7f-dda6-46cd-abf8-d519a8504959/censorshipbill.jpeg
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09:13:05 tom jonas’: yes it's a technical solution to a technical problem not if you use a memory access heavy hash like Argon2id so that ASICs and FPGAs can't be used leveling the playing field. We learned a lot of bitcoin & friends it hopefully will be too costly the do all the proof of work to setup messages to random people than the reword for mass spamming why wouldn't it be? If your on xmpp you got a computer of some kind care to elaborate on that? If you only did it to setup connections between new people or first time joining a muc I don't think they would care
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09:16:53 Ge0rG tom: PoW is much cheaper at scale than on individual systems. Any kind of PoW that works on my smartphone so that I can send a message to my GF will be ridiculously cheap for spammers, especially if they use botnets to outsource the hashing to infected PCs
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09:18:50 Django Ge0rG: sorry, this is the document I actually meant https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-security/20200724_com-2020-607-commission-communication_en.pdf
09:19:34 tom I think it'd still be useful when used in combination with other techniques
09:19:39 tom Just like how spamass workds
09:19:46 Ge0rG Django: yes, the paranoid police nazis are asking for this shit all the time; so far we were able to avert the worst things
09:20:54 Django I remember the ripe meeting were Europol wanted direct access to customer data and got 'get a fucking warrant' as response.
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09:21:29 Django I just hope, that we will be able to avoid this in the future as well.
09:22:29 tom Django: https://mirror.us.oneandone.net/projects/media.ccc.de/congress/2011/webm/28c3-4848-en-the_coming_war_on_general_computation.webm
09:23:41 tom This is the endgame of all that
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19:09:10 404.city > ‎tom‎: I tell people not to make an account on 404.city because of that If you think spam is the only XMPP problem you are greatly mistaken. There is still a lot of flood abuse. I think you have never received a flood attack, since you offer do not value protection from this.
19:10:25 tom No, I do not receive floods (yet)
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19:13:01 404.city A flood attack is when you receive millions of messages from thousands of strangers
19:13:40 tom Why don't you think a PoW would prevent that?
19:13:58 tom *metigate
19:14:27 tom If they are strangers to you, then each stranger would have to compute a challenge first
19:15:24 tom There is a similar thing in email where new combinations of receivers and senders are differed to 'try again later' as legit senders will try to send later but spammers won't
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19:15:30 tom All within spek
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19:17:28 404.city If the server allows you to receive a message without approving the subscription, then you can flood the user with the message until the client fails.
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19:24:05 a seems like mod_block_strangers is incredibly useful nowadays
19:26:25 Holger Maybe as a workaround to cope with emergency until you have a better solution. It breaks legitimate communication.
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19:31:27 a exactly. a better standardized solution is vitally needed. we just cannot rely on all servers to use this mod. most are even unaware of its existence I guess
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19:42:58 Licaon_Kter a: not unaware, just that it makes onboarding new users a pain :((
19:46:14 a well, in all honesty, I don't see entering a captcha a too painful process... but yeah, it could be a lot better if you just enter JID of recipient and start talking. like in the good old days
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19:47:31 Licaon_Kter a: in theory not hard, in practice I had to reach you and point you to this room when someone tried to contact you because the damn captcha somehow failed....
19:47:56 a fair point
19:48:50 a but I can only pray that someone eventually comes up with a better solution
19:48:57 Licaon_Kter True
19:50:43 a the lack of leadership in XMPP is depressing. we have ejabberd and Conversations devs (among some others) which are doing great job and register roll out new features, but it somehow it's still not enough
19:50:59 a the lack of leadership in XMPP is depressing. we have ejabberd and Conversations devs (among some others) which are doing great job and roll out new features, but it somehow it's still not enough
19:51:15 a the lack of leadership in XMPP is depressing. we have ejabberd and Conversations devs (among some others) which are doing great job and roll out new features, but somehow it's still not enough
19:51:47 Licaon_Kter That's just one server and one client on one platform, we need an least one *dedicated* dev for each or the others...
19:52:37 Licaon_Kter ...if we think the XEPs are perfect I mean, if not...
19:52:49 a the big companies like Slack and Google are just ripping XMPP off and run away without giving anything back
19:53:28 Licaon_Kter Slack has no xmpp Maybe Whatsapp or Google indeed Maybe Zoom, JitsiMeet
19:53:56 a I heard Slack started as an XMPP client
19:55:02 a XEPs are great in practice, PEPs in Python work great. but I feel there are not a lot of people pushing XEPs forward
19:55:17 a XEPs are great in theory, PEPs in Python work great. but I feel there are not a lot of people pushing XEPs forward
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