XMPP Service Operators - 2020-09-07


  1. tom

    I notice that all the users using Conversations are misreporting their presence and saying they are online 100% of the time. Conversations is the only client I have noticed this behavior and other clients users use set their presence to AWAY (auto-idle) after ~15 minutes or so. Is this a bug in conversations or perhaps a bad default? How can I as a server operator and muc owner enforce proper auto-away presence behavior for the Conversations users besides asking every single on to check their settings which is a logistics nightmare besides auto-kicking 100% online users with a help message? Is this a bug on Conversations that can be fixed in an update?

  2. a

    believe it or not, most Conversations users are indeed online 100% online

  3. a

    believe it or not, most Conversations users are indeed online 100% of time

  4. a

    it's a mobile client

  5. pep.

    tom: why should users be forced to report their activity? my client also says I'm always available because I ask it to.

  6. pep.

    Ftr though, it's easy enough to guess activity looking at Conversations presence spam

  7. tom

    a, the users in my muc are not

  8. tom

    I'll say something and it could be hours before i get a response

  9. a

    what's is "online" is up to debate

  10. tom

    » <pep.> tom: why should users be forced to report their activity? my client also says I'm always available because I ask it to. I don't think all these users have opted specificity into spoofing their presence.

  11. tom

    And I own the muc. It's a policy decision.

  12. pep.

    what policy?

  13. pep.

    "you shall reveal your true activity!"

  14. pep.

    ?

  15. tom

    Another part is that for a acronym where half the name stands for 'presence protocol'

  16. tom

    The presence side seems broken

  17. tom

    pep.: policy is don't idle in the chat all the time without reporting away status

  18. pep.

    Can I always be away then?

  19. tom

    It's misleading to users who want to talk

  20. stvn

    Why does it matter ?

  21. stvn

    Just send message people will answer if they wanna

  22. tom

    I shouldn't have to do that manually

  23. tom

    In a presence protocol

  24. pep.

    Or is it ok if I away right after writing every single time :)

  25. pep.

    tom: you do what you want with your client

  26. tom

    And if users are actively seeking conversation there's free-for-chat

  27. tom

    Ok pep under you model for XMPP » <stvn> Just send message people will answer if they wanna this is literally what I have to do if I want to find out who's participating in chat

  28. tom

    A

  29. tom

    AGENT 47:

  30. tom

    alex:

  31. tom

    alien:

  32. tom

    argon3771:

  33. tom

    So and and so forth

  34. tom

    For XM-Presence-Protocol this is absurd and distracting

  35. pep.

    maybe you're more of a synchronous person. some do asynchronous chat and are just fine with it :)

  36. tom

    I'm asking if there's a way to signal people on Conversations client since that's where these users with all broken presence come from

  37. pep.

    They're not broken the way you hear it though

  38. pep.

    And if that's a policy decision in your chatroom, maybe just tell these users clearly

  39. tom

    That's what I'm asking

  40. tom

    Is there a better way to do this than paging all users

  41. tom

    Something programmtic

  42. a

    I'm not sure you have power to control other people's clients

  43. pep.

    disco identity might help

  44. pep.

    As much as I find this policy weird

  45. pep.

    a: not but as the muc owner he choses who gets in

  46. tom

    Besides this

  47. pep.

    if people aren't happy with the policy they can leave

  48. tom

    I'm thinking an XMPP bot that mentions a user of they are with a Conversations UserAgent, presence is ONLINE and hasn't said anything in x hours asking them if they are really online

  49. a

    that will be very annoying

  50. tom

    Helps them fix their setting or kicks them if no response

  51. tom

    Yeah a that's why I'm trying to figure out a better solution

  52. a

    personally, I do not want to participate in a chatroom, where I'm obliged to reply something on other people messages

  53. a

    but if you got really popular MUCs...

  54. pep.

    tom: why not just accept the fact that some clients don't want to be leaking presence

  55. pep.

    because a protocol has feature X and Y doesn't mean I have to be using them all

  56. stvn

    ^

  57. a

    there's actually a setting in Conversations which marks you away if you lock your screen

  58. tom

    pep.: I'm totally fine if some users want to spoof presence. But the problem comes when a client spoofs BY DEFAULT. So you have a room reporting several hundred participants but only a small portion of them are actually active. That's misleading

  59. a

    but I didn't enable it, since I'm available with a locked screen

  60. pep.

    why does it matter?

  61. a

    but I didn't enable it, since I'm available even when my screen is locked

  62. a

    again, "online" and "away" on mobile are very blurry concepts

  63. a

    if your phone is on, I'd say you're online

  64. pep.

    Note that I'm actually curious about why it matters because I do like seeing presence as well and I can't put words on the why. I won't go as far though as forcing people to set their status properly. I guess I just like knowing if I'm answering to a support question to somebody who's left already and is never coming back.

  65. mike

    online/offline became blurry concepts when multiple devices became the norm, and we're not dialling up from a single computer any more.

  66. a

    if you don't participate in a discussion, especially in a group discussion, you're not "away" automatically

  67. a

    maybe you don't like this chat that much

  68. pep.

    yeah you're just not participating in this chat :)

  69. tom

    It's about response time expectation

  70. a

    who sets this expectation?

  71. a

    who have this person such power?

  72. mike

    I'm away most of the time, but if someone mentions me in a chat, I pull my phone out and check.

  73. tom

    The moderator

  74. a

    who gave this person such power?

  75. Link Mauve makes a mental note to never go in this room. :D

  76. a

    is it in rules of conference room? "you have to presaging react to reach message?"

  77. a

    is it in rules of conference room? "you have to react to reach message?"

  78. a

    is it in rules of conference room? "you have to react to each message?"

  79. Link Mauve

    I’ve had to teach some friends that being online doesn’t mean I’m necessarily on the computer atm, nor ready to chat with them.

  80. tom

    I havn't needed to make it a rule yet

  81. Link Mauve

    Because turns out, I happen to sometimes be doing other things than answering right away!

  82. tom

    Then your away

  83. a

    I'm sorry Tom, I don't want to sound offensive and such, but I think that you want to try to enforce excessive things. maybe it's not worth it. people don't like this stuff.

  84. tom

    That's why I am discussing this

  85. tom

    Looking for a better solution that having a bot page people

  86. tom

    To bring conversations's behavior into what other clients are doing

  87. tom

    If this bug won't get fixed upstream I've no choice but to put a workaround server side

  88. tom

    Weather that work around is checking useragents and paging users and kicking idlers or re-writing their presence for them I don't know yet

  89. tom

    That's why we have useragent headers in protocols in the first place. SO to change behavior of the server for misbehaving clients or clients with defects

  90. a

    this doesn't feel like a bug, I'd say it's rather a feature. for me it's very convenient

  91. tom

    I'd like to have a proper client fix

  92. pep.

    > tom: It's about response time expectation tbh I get this, but as many people said here, status doesn't mean much. Also I won't go enforcing whatever weird idea you're talking about in people :x

  93. pep.

    > tom: It's about response time expectation tbh I get this, but as many people said here, status doesn't mean much. Also I won't go enforcing whatever weird idea you're talking about on people :x

  94. tom

    A my way or the highway approach doesn't lead to as good of outcomes as having some kind of policy approach either

  95. tom

    And without a XEP, toggle, or something I'm forced to put useragent specific metigations in

  96. pep.

    It also doesn't feel like a bug to me, but that's up to whoever sets design guidelines for Conversations anyway :)

  97. tom

    Even Teamspeak had a Suggest PTT function

  98. a

    Tom, don't waste your time on trying to "fix this upstream", this will probably never happen, and if you insist on "fix" it somehow — save your time and go ahead.

  99. a

    Tom, don't waste your time on trying to "fix this upstream", this will probably never happen, and if you insist on "fixing" it somehow — save your time and go ahead.

  100. a

    but how to do this, you probably know best...

  101. thndrbvr

    I don't know off hand what my presence settings are across multiple devices: phone, tablet, laptop, desktop, and all the various XMPP clients and accounts integrated/bridged in via Matrix. I'd say, I'm often around one device or another and if mentioned, and it's something I can and am willing to deal with near-immediately I'd think of myself as being "available" at that moment. As for MUCs, those are for lurking anyway.

  102. thndrbvr

    It looks like on my phone / Pix-Art Messenger, I have it set to manage my availability manually but I almost never bother to change statuses. Lol. I think originally I wanted to manually adjust the priority…

  103. tom

    I do have to wonder why that behavior was never defined properly in a XEP

  104. tom

    If it's not here is how I would define it: set to AWAY with message auto-away if the user has not interacted with a human interface device in the last 15 minutes

  105. tom

    This would also match the behavior of most popular XMPP clients already in the wild