XMPP Service Operators - 2020-09-07


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  720. tom I notice that all the users using Conversations are misreporting their presence and saying they are online 100% of the time. Conversations is the only client I have noticed this behavior and other clients users use set their presence to AWAY (auto-idle) after ~15 minutes or so. Is this a bug in conversations or perhaps a bad default? How can I as a server operator and muc owner enforce proper auto-away presence behavior for the Conversations users besides asking every single on to check their settings which is a logistics nightmare besides auto-kicking 100% online users with a help message? Is this a bug on Conversations that can be fixed in an update?
  721. madmalkav has left
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  724. a believe it or not, most Conversations users are indeed online 100% online
  725. a believe it or not, most Conversations users are indeed online 100% of time
  726. a it's a mobile client
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  729. pep. tom: why should users be forced to report their activity? my client also says I'm always available because I ask it to.
  730. pep. Ftr though, it's easy enough to guess activity looking at Conversations presence spam
  731. Beherit has joined
  732. tom a, the users in my muc are not
  733. tom I'll say something and it could be hours before i get a response
  734. a what's is "online" is up to debate
  735. tom » <pep.> tom: why should users be forced to report their activity? my client also says I'm always available because I ask it to. I don't think all these users have opted specificity into spoofing their presence.
  736. tom And I own the muc. It's a policy decision.
  737. pep. what policy?
  738. pep. "you shall reveal your true activity!"
  739. pep. ?
  740. tom Another part is that for a acronym where half the name stands for 'presence protocol'
  741. tom The presence side seems broken
  742. tom pep.: policy is don't idle in the chat all the time without reporting away status
  743. pep. Can I always be away then?
  744. tom It's misleading to users who want to talk
  745. stvn Why does it matter ?
  746. stvn Just send message people will answer if they wanna
  747. tom I shouldn't have to do that manually
  748. tom In a presence protocol
  749. pep. Or is it ok if I away right after writing every single time :)
  750. pep. tom: you do what you want with your client
  751. tom And if users are actively seeking conversation there's free-for-chat
  752. tom Ok pep under you model for XMPP » <stvn> Just send message people will answer if they wanna this is literally what I have to do if I want to find out who's participating in chat
  753. tom A
  754. tom AGENT 47:
  755. tom alex:
  756. tom alien:
  757. tom argon3771:
  758. tom So and and so forth
  759. tom For XM-Presence-Protocol this is absurd and distracting
  760. pep. maybe you're more of a synchronous person. some do asynchronous chat and are just fine with it :)
  761. tom I'm asking if there's a way to signal people on Conversations client since that's where these users with all broken presence come from
  762. pep. They're not broken the way you hear it though
  763. pep. And if that's a policy decision in your chatroom, maybe just tell these users clearly
  764. tom That's what I'm asking
  765. tom Is there a better way to do this than paging all users
  766. tom Something programmtic
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  769. a I'm not sure you have power to control other people's clients
  770. pep. disco identity might help
  771. pep. As much as I find this policy weird
  772. pep. a: not but as the muc owner he choses who gets in
  773. tom Besides this
  774. pep. if people aren't happy with the policy they can leave
  775. tom I'm thinking an XMPP bot that mentions a user of they are with a Conversations UserAgent, presence is ONLINE and hasn't said anything in x hours asking them if they are really online
  776. a that will be very annoying
  777. tom Helps them fix their setting or kicks them if no response
  778. tom Yeah a that's why I'm trying to figure out a better solution
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  780. a personally, I do not want to participate in a chatroom, where I'm obliged to reply something on other people messages
  781. a but if you got really popular MUCs...
  782. pep. tom: why not just accept the fact that some clients don't want to be leaking presence
  783. pep. because a protocol has feature X and Y doesn't mean I have to be using them all
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  785. stvn ^
  786. a there's actually a setting in Conversations which marks you away if you lock your screen
  787. tom pep.: I'm totally fine if some users want to spoof presence. But the problem comes when a client spoofs BY DEFAULT. So you have a room reporting several hundred participants but only a small portion of them are actually active. That's misleading
  788. a but I didn't enable it, since I'm available with a locked screen
  789. pep. why does it matter?
  790. a but I didn't enable it, since I'm available even when my screen is locked
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  793. a again, "online" and "away" on mobile are very blurry concepts
  794. a if your phone is on, I'd say you're online
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  797. pep. Note that I'm actually curious about why it matters because I do like seeing presence as well and I can't put words on the why. I won't go as far though as forcing people to set their status properly. I guess I just like knowing if I'm answering to a support question to somebody who's left already and is never coming back.
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  799. mike online/offline became blurry concepts when multiple devices became the norm, and we're not dialling up from a single computer any more.
  800. a if you don't participate in a discussion, especially in a group discussion, you're not "away" automatically
  801. a maybe you don't like this chat that much
  802. pep. yeah you're just not participating in this chat :)
  803. tom It's about response time expectation
  804. a who sets this expectation?
  805. a who have this person such power?
  806. mike I'm away most of the time, but if someone mentions me in a chat, I pull my phone out and check.
  807. tom The moderator
  808. a who gave this person such power?
  809. Link Mauve makes a mental note to never go in this room. :D
  810. a is it in rules of conference room? "you have to presaging react to reach message?"
  811. a is it in rules of conference room? "you have to react to reach message?"
  812. a is it in rules of conference room? "you have to react to each message?"
  813. Link Mauve I’ve had to teach some friends that being online doesn’t mean I’m necessarily on the computer atm, nor ready to chat with them.
  814. tom I havn't needed to make it a rule yet
  815. Link Mauve Because turns out, I happen to sometimes be doing other things than answering right away!
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  817. tom Then your away
  818. a I'm sorry Tom, I don't want to sound offensive and such, but I think that you want to try to enforce excessive things. maybe it's not worth it. people don't like this stuff.
  819. tom That's why I am discussing this
  820. tom Looking for a better solution that having a bot page people
  821. tom To bring conversations's behavior into what other clients are doing
  822. tom If this bug won't get fixed upstream I've no choice but to put a workaround server side
  823. tom Weather that work around is checking useragents and paging users and kicking idlers or re-writing their presence for them I don't know yet
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  828. tom That's why we have useragent headers in protocols in the first place. SO to change behavior of the server for misbehaving clients or clients with defects
  829. a this doesn't feel like a bug, I'd say it's rather a feature. for me it's very convenient
  830. tom I'd like to have a proper client fix
  831. pep. > tom: It's about response time expectation tbh I get this, but as many people said here, status doesn't mean much. Also I won't go enforcing whatever weird idea you're talking about in people :x
  832. pep. > tom: It's about response time expectation tbh I get this, but as many people said here, status doesn't mean much. Also I won't go enforcing whatever weird idea you're talking about on people :x
  833. tom A my way or the highway approach doesn't lead to as good of outcomes as having some kind of policy approach either
  834. tom And without a XEP, toggle, or something I'm forced to put useragent specific metigations in
  835. pep. It also doesn't feel like a bug to me, but that's up to whoever sets design guidelines for Conversations anyway :)
  836. tom Even Teamspeak had a Suggest PTT function
  837. a Tom, don't waste your time on trying to "fix this upstream", this will probably never happen, and if you insist on "fix" it somehow — save your time and go ahead.
  838. a Tom, don't waste your time on trying to "fix this upstream", this will probably never happen, and if you insist on "fixing" it somehow — save your time and go ahead.
  839. a but how to do this, you probably know best...
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  847. thndrbvr I don't know off hand what my presence settings are across multiple devices: phone, tablet, laptop, desktop, and all the various XMPP clients and accounts integrated/bridged in via Matrix. I'd say, I'm often around one device or another and if mentioned, and it's something I can and am willing to deal with near-immediately I'd think of myself as being "available" at that moment. As for MUCs, those are for lurking anyway.
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  852. thndrbvr It looks like on my phone / Pix-Art Messenger, I have it set to manage my availability manually but I almost never bother to change statuses. Lol. I think originally I wanted to manually adjust the priority…
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  876. tom I do have to wonder why that behavior was never defined properly in a XEP
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  879. tom If it's not here is how I would define it: set to AWAY with message auto-away if the user has not interacted with a human interface device in the last 15 minutes
  880. tom This would also match the behavior of most popular XMPP clients already in the wild
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