XMPP Service Operators

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05:37:44 Licaon_Kter tom: you really think that users should always toggle status all the time to match real life? Why would anyone waste all this time and mental work? What for?
05:38:19 tom No I don't think users should manually toggle status
05:38:44 tom I just want to know the level of engagement I can expect back from people in a group chat
05:39:45 tom It's also part of social signalling, like how you read a person's face IRL. I compare their presence to if they've responded to gauge if what I said was not interesting to them or perhaps upset them
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05:40:43 tom It's also very creepy to me when I'm in a role playing chat and there's a couple people who never say anything and just idle, but always say they are online
05:41:13 tom I wonder if they are datamining or if they are interested in the conversation, but just never get pinged because nobody mentions them
05:41:20 tom Because they don't chat
05:41:24 tom Unless mentioned
05:42:05 tom Imagine playing D&D IRL, and there's like 5 people sitting in the background watching you but never saying a word. You'd probably feel pretty nervous
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06:30:42 Maranda tom: you may set conversation to set away status when off-screen
06:31:27 tom Indeed. I asked someone about that and they showed me a screenshot about that sitting.
06:31:39 Maranda For what regards Conversations status doesn't matter
06:31:54 Maranda It doesn't even have the UI for it
06:32:04 Maranda Why it should care?
06:32:43 tom Because there are other XMPP clients out there that people use other than conversations, and if wall these walled gardens have taught us anything it is that good interoperability is important
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06:34:48 tom I think it's safe to assume that if one is using XMPP, they understand that. Or at the very least sympathize with it
06:37:33 Licaon_Kter tom: > No I don't think users should manually toggle status Then why do you repeat that you want?
06:39:28 Licaon_Kter tom: > I just want to know the level of engagement I can expect back from people in a group chat If I'm discussing something in another MUC, am I online or not? I won't post in yours...I'm busy.... And ffs I'm context switching like this a lot of times, I can't come to your room OR others to set AWAY everytime I'm doing something else...elsewhere...but I'm still online...
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06:40:08 Licaon_Kter > It's also part of social signalling, like how you read a person's face IRL. I compare their presence to if they've responded to gauge if what I said was not interesting to them or perhaps upset them But you are not in my face....why compare to that?
06:41:09 tom Licaon_Kter: I think you may have misunderstood what I am saying if that is what you think I want. Let me clarify. I do NOT want users to have to manually set their status. I do want conversations to announce their presence as away with a custom status message (auto-away) or similar when the user has not interacted with their phone in the last 15 minutes. This would bring it more consistent with other client behaviors. This change would not be visible to the conversations user if you say conversations doesn't care about status. This would however be a very large improvement to other users of the muc
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06:41:16 mike If conversations started signalling my status by default I'd turn it off tbqh. I don't want to alert any chat room I'm in every time I pick up my phone.
06:41:27 Licaon_Kter Actually....do set policies...hey...kick them if they have C and never away for 24h...I'm sure everything will work out....fewer users but as you wish
06:42:21 tom Mike I don't see any problems with users opting to do that, but I do dislike that is the default behavior of conversations
06:42:28 Licaon_Kter tom: > If I'm discussing something in another MUC, am I online or not? I won't post in yours...I'm busy.... ?????
06:42:56 tom » If I'm discussing something in another MUC, am I online or not? I won't post in yours...I'm busy.... Yes your online I would say
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06:43:14 mike I think we've beaten this to death, honesty. I think it's a reasonable default in this day and age when "away" is such a meaningless state on a modern mobile device.
06:43:58 mike You obviously don't, so ... I dunno. Conversations devs get the final call and you can accept it or fork it.
06:44:07 tom I disagree that a mobile phone is such a special snowflake scenario that it needs to diverge from all other XMPP client behavior
06:44:35 tom There were similar devices available before cellphones were popular that did speak XMPP
06:44:36 Licaon_Kter tom: > Yes your online I would say I won't answer you....above you said I HAVE TO ANSWER
06:45:34 Licaon_Kter tom: "all the other" people use Whatsapp... Are you "such a special snowflake"?
06:45:55 tom NO i think your misreading me again Licaon_Kter
06:46:40 Licaon_Kter tom: > I'll say something and it could be hours before i get a response ....
06:46:53 Licaon_Kter Did I missread?
06:47:20 Licaon_Kter Anyway you got your answers
06:47:22 tom I think whatsapp and other walled garden proprietary fad services are out of scope and topic for an XMPP ops chat
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06:48:09 tom Unless we are talking about network transports
06:48:20 Licaon_Kter tom: yeah, use swiping generalisations like "all the other" and $hit ldke snowflake when it suits you.....
06:48:27 mike well they're obviously more popular with end users so something about their client UX at least needs to be looked at critically to see what they're doing right .
06:48:53 Licaon_Kter mike: monopolies and closed networks, that's all
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06:49:25 tom All the other xmpp clients reffering to the clients connected to this room right now that are not Conversations
06:50:00 mike nah accessibility of client software is a big factor. ease of signup especially. can't build a network if people can't join easily.
06:51:08 mike I didn't lose 99% of my users to discord because of any technical merit, it was purely UX.
06:51:28 tom Was it though mike?
06:51:56 tom Or was it purely because discord had a lot of money to blow on marketing and paying popular youtubers to shill their platform
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06:52:56 tom Like how Microsoft Windows is popular because Microsoft of 90% marketing and it comes installed by default on OEM machines
06:53:21 tom Despite making decisions unpopular with users like removing start menus, spying, and constantly reccomending onedrive
06:53:34 tom And breaking down, getting viruses
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06:53:44 tom Updating itself nonstop
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06:54:46 mike well given a bunch of them straight up said as much, yes I do believe it was UX. ... and now we're talking aobut windows. I'm out.
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06:55:44 tom I'd bet if if you employed a marketing strategy as encroaching and expansive as microsoft's and discord's you would have just as many users
06:56:05 tom I don't think you should believe it when you asked and they said UX
06:56:14 tom I mean take it with a grain of salt sure
06:56:23 tom But most consumers don't know what they want
06:56:36 tom What they really want is to be told what to use and how to use it.
06:56:52 tom And not have to make decisions for themselves
06:57:22 tom It's unfortunately but it's why marketing gets as far as it does and the reason many things in the world today are the way they are
06:57:51 tom I'd highly suggest talking to a professional salesperson and picking their brain
06:58:10 tom Or even if you've ever worked in consumer electronics in your life
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07:04:22 tom There is also an institutionalization aspect to it. A lot of people have used nothing but proprietary walled garden services for so long that they begin finding comfort in it. Very much like a person who has spent most of his life in a prison begins to find comfort in the routine. In not having to be responsible for themselves. They get told when to eat, what to eat, how much to eat, when to sleep, when to wake up, when to pleasure and when to exercise. A free man has to make choices and be resonsible for earning the income to pay for food, what food he wants to buy, where, how to cook it. These choices can be scary to an institutionalized person. And like a prisoner who spent most of his life in a prison is overwhelmed when discharge and thinks about, often times committing another heinous crime in order to get back into the prison consumers find themselves back at the will of dataminers and tyrants
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07:06:32 tom » used to describe a person who has been living in an insitution (such as a prison) for a very long time and is no longer able to live an independent life in the outside world
07:07:49 tom A similar thing happens in wild animals. Where if you take in a injured wild animal for too long, their hunting instincts could go away requiring the animal to live in captivity for the rest of it's life to survive
07:08:07 tom Especially from a young age
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08:38:04 Maranda tom: there're protocol specifics, C isn't breaking anything on that part
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08:40:10 Maranda It doesn't handle presence states in it's UI, the only thing it can do is adding autoaway when it's offscreen
08:40:25 Maranda Tell your users to enable that
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09:21:48 tom Maranda: I will, but a common thing I hear and I agree with is "I don't want it to say I'm online if I just check my phone real quick." Do you, the devs, or anyone else have opposition to adding an option in there to set away after offscreen for over 15 minutes?
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09:23:03 Maranda tom: send a ticket to change conversations default if you really want
09:38:14 a the additional option to set "autoaway" will not hurt, but if it's not set by default, it will not be used by 99% of users
09:39:17 Holger I think WhatsApp's 'last online' timestamp is a better indicator for what you want to know.
09:39:45 Holger (Which Conversations and a few other clients have as well, except it doesn't work too well there.)
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09:42:20 a oh, btw, there is also "this user has read until this point" feature in Conversations, which could indicate they are at least aware of what's going on in the MUC
09:44:34 Holger Right, that's more useful to me usually. Presence or 'last online' seems to be about deciding whether or not to write a message right now seems sensible (i.e., how likely is it my contact(s) will read it in time). Whereas in _most_ cases I just write the message anyway, and might later be interested whether they've seen it in time, or whether I need to phone them (always assuming it's about something time-critical).
09:47:35 Holger XMPP's traditional presence thing seems mostly useless to me, _except_ that we (wife and me) use Conversations' feature to set DND when the phone is muted. So DND tells me I can write a message without having to worry I'll ring the phone while she's in a meeting or asleep or whatever. Basically the opposite of the original DND meaning :-)
09:48:40 a you abuse DnD actually 😀
09:48:54 Ge0rG that's a super practical thing though.
09:49:00 a yeah
09:49:03 Ge0rG You *also* know you won't get a response immediately
09:49:19 Ge0rG Which is why I've shamelessly stolen that feature into yaxim as well :D
09:50:44 Holger It's not patented?
09:51:07 Ge0rG you can't patent this stuff in the EU, and I'm not going to travel to the US of A
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10:13:38 MattJ I was hoping Siskin could implement this too, but apparently iOS doesn't give apps the ability to access that :/
10:14:08 Ge0rG you can't access silenced state?
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10:14:15 MattJ That's what I've been told
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10:14:31 MattJ And regarding the "abuse" - back when "do not disturb" actually meant that, it never actually stopped people messaging you anyway
10:14:58 MattJ and many people stayed dnd always, which prevented *me* from messaging them
10:15:33 MattJ I think the new interpretation is far more compatible with reality
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10:16:20 Martin My phone is always set to 'vibrate only'. Now I wonder if I always appear as DND too…
10:16:51 MattJ Conversations lets you choose whether "vibrate" maps to dnd, or if only "silent" does
10:18:14 pep. "So DND tells me I can write a message without having to worry I'll ring the phone while she's in a meeting or asleep". I never really care about people's status.. How do I know what timezone it is for the recipients I'm currently writing to. What if they're all different, should I tell the MUC to only send to some and not all?
10:18:23 Martin Ah ok. It's not ticked here. 😃
10:19:11 pep. If getting notifications annoys them, they can change their notifications settings
10:19:44 Ge0rG per-jid notification settings when?
10:19:59 Ge0rG waits for MattJ to post the slack flowchart
10:20:20 MattJ :)
10:20:28 pep. This also assumes people don't abuse, and I think that's a fair assumption
10:20:41 pep. If they do well then you ignore them or sth
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21:50:40 tom There is another botnet spamming people now
21:51:03 tom Ads for some onion site. It works by sending a roster request to people.
21:51:11 tom You don't have to accept it
21:51:21 tom But, the spammer later starts an OTR session
21:51:27 tom And sends ads
21:51:31 Vaughan tom: "I don't think you should believe it when you asked and they said UX" I think this is extremely arrogant. Nontechnical folk frequently migrate to 'the next big thing' and UX has much to do with why.
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21:52:03 tom It seems to be coming from a different domain each time. Last one troll.ml
21:53:41 tom » <Vaughan> tom: "I don't think you should believe it when you asked and they said UX" I think this is extremely arrogant. Nontechnical folk frequently migrate to 'the next big thing' and UX has much to do with why. I think that is a largely incomplete and naive view Vaughan. Where users will say oh this UI is better than some other one, but really that's got maybe 2% to do with it. Where most of the migration happens because of their psychology being exploited
21:54:05 tom Again consumers don't know what they want
21:54:18 tom They just want someone to sell them something and tell them what to use
21:54:25 tom Especially when it comes to computers
21:54:51 tom Most people don't think like you or I
21:55:07 tom In fact, thinking is painful for them. They think thinking is a chore
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22:02:20 Vaughan tom: I'm not saying UX is the whole story. Network effects have a lot to do with it too. But much of what you are saying is arrogant as you credit others with little intelligence or agency. There may be people in this very room who have only recently discovered xmpp and think it might be, at least in part, a path to freedom. Yet what they'll discover is that they are held in contempt by some members of this community. If you want to win converts, best not start by insulting them.
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22:06:00 tom I'm merely stating an observation. If it offends someone, that's not the intention but not something I can do anything about either.
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22:10:03 tom Kudos to anyone searching for a path to freedom
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22:11:02 stvn People like apps with better ux
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22:16:31 tom If you disagree, I emplore you to try an experiment
22:16:59 tom Don't sell XMPP as a path to freedom to most people
22:17:08 tom Sell it to them like they are expected to use it
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22:17:30 tom And magically they will try to conform
22:17:53 tom All that really matters is the perception of popularity
22:18:09 tom Not freedom, for most people
22:18:19 stvn What do you recommend for xmpp desktop client !
22:18:20 stvn ?
22:18:56 tom Really depends on who I'm recommending to
22:19:24 tom To a power user or someone looking for freedom I'd recommend psi+ or Profanity
22:19:52 tom To someone just looking to conform I'd just tell them to use Dino
22:19:55 stvn Profanity has omemi ?
22:19:59 stvn Omemo
22:20:01 tom Yes
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22:20:29 stvn Gajim is working well
22:20:37 stvn But has awful gui
22:20:56 tom I would agree with you. I used Gajim until 0.16.9
22:21:15 tom Then held out there for a while until switching to psi+
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22:24:50 tom I don't recommend gajim anymore because I know it's heavily associated with GNOME3 since 1.x and I associate GNOME3/gnome foundation with Embrace Extend Extinguish tactics
22:25:29 tom At least it's compliant though and implements a fair number of xeps
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22:27:41 stvn Why gnome3 with e3 tactics ?
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22:32:07 tom Based on how they treat other projects. Look through the bug tracker of deluge for instance where they were asking if deluge was a 'GNOME APP'
22:32:38 tom And the refusal to implement window manager agnostic standards
22:32:48 tom Search "MPV drops GNOME support"
22:32:59 tom Requiring systemd to build
22:33:19 tom For a while, and program that used GTK3 has forced client-side-decorations
22:34:02 tom In general the GNOME ecosystem doesn't play well with the GNU and BSD ecosystem. Kind of it's own thing
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22:37:03 tom There is a lot of rough edges like this that usually have to be patched downstream. But if your a package maintainer, or you use a more bleeding edge distribution you deal with these problems first hand
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