tom: you really think that users should always toggle status all the time to match real life? Why would anyone waste all this time and mental work? What for?
tom
No I don't think users should manually toggle status
tom
I just want to know the level of engagement I can expect back from people in a group chat
tom
It's also part of social signalling, like how you read a person's face IRL. I compare their presence to if they've responded to gauge if what I said was not interesting to them or perhaps upset them
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tom
It's also very creepy to me when I'm in a role playing chat and there's a couple people who never say anything and just idle, but always say they are online
tom
I wonder if they are datamining or if they are interested in the conversation, but just never get pinged because nobody mentions them
tom
Because they don't chat
tom
Unless mentioned
tom
Imagine playing D&D IRL, and there's like 5 people sitting in the background watching you but never saying a word. You'd probably feel pretty nervous
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Maranda
tom: you may set conversation to set away status when off-screen
tom
Indeed. I asked someone about that and they showed me a screenshot about that sitting.
Maranda
For what regards Conversations status doesn't matter
Maranda
It doesn't even have the UI for it
Maranda
Why it should care?
tom
Because there are other XMPP clients out there that people use other than conversations, and if wall these walled gardens have taught us anything it is that good interoperability is important
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tom
I think it's safe to assume that if one is using XMPP, they understand that. Or at the very least sympathize with it
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> No I don't think users should manually toggle status
Then why do you repeat that you want?
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> I just want to know the level of engagement I can expect back from people in a group chat
If I'm discussing something in another MUC, am I online or not? I won't post in yours...I'm busy....
And ffs I'm context switching like this a lot of times, I can't come to your room OR others to set AWAY everytime I'm doing something else...elsewhere...but I'm still online...
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Licaon_Kter
> It's also part of social signalling, like how you read a person's face IRL. I compare their presence to if they've responded to gauge if what I said was not interesting to them or perhaps upset them
But you are not in my face....why compare to that?
tom
Licaon_Kter: I think you may have misunderstood what I am saying if that is what you think I want. Let me clarify. I do NOT want users to have to manually set their status. I do want conversations to announce their presence as away with a custom status message (auto-away) or similar when the user has not interacted with their phone in the last 15 minutes. This would bring it more consistent with other client behaviors. This change would not be visible to the conversations user if you say conversations doesn't care about status. This would however be a very large improvement to other users of the muc
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mike
If conversations started signalling my status by default I'd turn it off tbqh. I don't want to alert any chat room I'm in every time I pick up my phone.
Licaon_Kter
Actually....do set policies...hey...kick them if they have C and never away for 24h...I'm sure everything will work out....fewer users but as you wish
tom
Mike I don't see any problems with users opting to do that, but I do dislike that is the default behavior of conversations
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> If I'm discussing something in another MUC, am I online or not? I won't post in yours...I'm busy....
?????
tom
ยป If I'm discussing something in another MUC, am I online or not? I won't post in yours...I'm busy....
Yes your online I would say
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mike
I think we've beaten this to death, honesty. I think it's a reasonable default in this day and age when "away" is such a meaningless state on a modern mobile device.
mike
You obviously don't, so ... I dunno. Conversations devs get the final call and you can accept it or fork it.
tom
I disagree that a mobile phone is such a special snowflake scenario that it needs to diverge from all other XMPP client behavior
tom
There were similar devices available before cellphones were popular that did speak XMPP
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> Yes your online I would say
I won't answer you....above you said I HAVE TO ANSWER
Licaon_Kter
tom: "all the other" people use Whatsapp... Are you "such a special snowflake"?
tom
NO i think your misreading me again Licaon_Kter
Licaon_Kter
tom:
> I'll say something and it could be hours before i get a response
....
Licaon_Kter
Did I missread?
Licaon_Kter
Anyway you got your answers
tom
I think whatsapp and other walled garden proprietary fad services are out of scope and topic for an XMPP ops chat
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tom
Unless we are talking about network transports
Licaon_Kter
tom: yeah, use swiping generalisations like "all the other" and $hit ldke snowflake when it suits you.....
mike
well they're obviously more popular with end users so something about their client UX at least needs to be looked at critically to see what they're doing right .
Licaon_Kter
mike: monopolies and closed networks, that's all
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tom
All the other xmpp clients reffering to the clients connected to this room right now that are not Conversations
mike
nah accessibility of client software is a big factor. ease of signup especially. can't build a network if people can't join easily.
mike
I didn't lose 99% of my users to discord because of any technical merit, it was purely UX.
tom
Was it though mike?
tom
Or was it purely because discord had a lot of money to blow on marketing and paying popular youtubers to shill their platform
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tom
Like how Microsoft Windows is popular because Microsoft of 90% marketing and it comes installed by default on OEM machines
tom
Despite making decisions unpopular with users like removing start menus, spying, and constantly reccomending onedrive
tom
And breaking down, getting viruses
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tom
Updating itself nonstop
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mike
well given a bunch of them straight up said as much, yes I do believe it was UX. ... and now we're talking aobut windows. I'm out.
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tom
I'd bet if if you employed a marketing strategy as encroaching and expansive as microsoft's and discord's you would have just as many users
tom
I don't think you should believe it when you asked and they said UX
tom
I mean take it with a grain of salt sure
tom
But most consumers don't know what they want
tom
What they really want is to be told what to use and how to use it.
tom
And not have to make decisions for themselves
tom
It's unfortunately but it's why marketing gets as far as it does and the reason many things in the world today are the way they are
tom
I'd highly suggest talking to a professional salesperson and picking their brain
tom
Or even if you've ever worked in consumer electronics in your life
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tom
There is also an institutionalization aspect to it. A lot of people have used nothing but proprietary walled garden services for so long that they begin finding comfort in it. Very much like a person who has spent most of his life in a prison begins to find comfort in the routine. In not having to be responsible for themselves. They get told when to eat, what to eat, how much to eat, when to sleep, when to wake up, when to pleasure and when to exercise. A free man has to make choices and be resonsible for earning the income to pay for food, what food he wants to buy, where, how to cook it. These choices can be scary to an institutionalized person. And like a prisoner who spent most of his life in a prison is overwhelmed when discharge and thinks about, often times committing another heinous crime in order to get back into the prison consumers find themselves back at the will of dataminers and tyrants
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tom
ยป used to describe a person who has been living in an insitution (such as a prison) for a very long time and is no longer able to live an independent life in the outside world
tom
A similar thing happens in wild animals. Where if you take in a injured wild animal for too long, their hunting instincts could go away requiring the animal to live in captivity for the rest of it's life to survive
tom
Especially from a young age
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Maranda
tom: there're protocol specifics, C isn't breaking anything on that part
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Maranda
It doesn't handle presence states in it's UI, the only thing it can do is adding autoaway when it's offscreen
Maranda
Tell your users to enable that
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tom
Maranda: I will, but a common thing I hear and I agree with is "I don't want it to say I'm online if I just check my phone real quick." Do you, the devs, or anyone else have opposition to adding an option in there to set away after offscreen for over 15 minutes?
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Maranda
tom: send a ticket to change conversations default if you really want
a
the additional option to set "autoaway" will not hurt, but if it's not set by default, it will not be used by 99% of users
Holger
I think WhatsApp's 'last online' timestamp is a better indicator for what you want to know.
Holger
(Which Conversations and a few other clients have as well, except it doesn't work too well there.)
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a
oh, btw, there is also "this user has read until this point" feature in Conversations, which could indicate they are at least aware of what's going on in the MUC
Holger
Right, that's more useful to me usually. Presence or 'last online' seems to be about deciding whether or not to write a message right now seems sensible (i.e., how likely is it my contact(s) will read it in time). Whereas in _most_ cases I just write the message anyway, and might later be interested whether they've seen it in time, or whether I need to phone them (always assuming it's about something time-critical).
Holger
XMPP's traditional presence thing seems mostly useless to me, _except_ that we (wife and me) use Conversations' feature to set DND when the phone is muted. So DND tells me I can write a message without having to worry I'll ring the phone while she's in a meeting or asleep or whatever. Basically the opposite of the original DND meaning :-)
a
you abuse DnD actually ๐
Ge0rG
that's a super practical thing though.
a
yeah
Ge0rG
You *also* know you won't get a response immediately
Ge0rG
Which is why I've shamelessly stolen that feature into yaxim as well :D
Holger
It's not patented?
Ge0rG
you can't patent this stuff in the EU, and I'm not going to travel to the US of A
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MattJ
I was hoping Siskin could implement this too, but apparently iOS doesn't give apps the ability to access that :/
Ge0rG
you can't access silenced state?
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MattJ
That's what I've been told
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MattJ
And regarding the "abuse" - back when "do not disturb" actually meant that, it never actually stopped people messaging you anyway
MattJ
and many people stayed dnd always, which prevented *me* from messaging them
MattJ
I think the new interpretation is far more compatible with reality
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Martin
My phone is always set to 'vibrate only'. Now I wonder if I always appear as DND tooโฆ
MattJ
Conversations lets you choose whether "vibrate" maps to dnd, or if only "silent" does
pep.
"So DND tells me I can write a message without having to worry I'll ring the phone while she's in a meeting or asleep". I never really care about people's status.. How do I know what timezone it is for the recipients I'm currently writing to. What if they're all different, should I tell the MUC to only send to some and not all?
Martin
Ah ok. It's not ticked here. ๐
pep.
If getting notifications annoys them, they can change their notifications settings
Ge0rG
per-jid notification settings when?
Ge0rGwaits for MattJ to post the slack flowchart
MattJ
:)
pep.
This also assumes people don't abuse, and I think that's a fair assumption
pep.
If they do well then you ignore them or sth
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tom
There is another botnet spamming people now
tom
Ads for some onion site. It works by sending a roster request to people.
tom
You don't have to accept it
tom
But, the spammer later starts an OTR session
tom
And sends ads
Vaughan
tom: "I don't think you should believe it when you asked and they said UX" I think this is extremely arrogant. Nontechnical folk frequently migrate to 'the next big thing' and UX has much to do with why.
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tom
It seems to be coming from a different domain each time. Last one troll.ml
tom
ยป <Vaughan> tom: "I don't think you should believe it when you asked and they said UX" I think this is extremely arrogant. Nontechnical folk frequently migrate to 'the next big thing' and UX has much to do with why.
I think that is a largely incomplete and naive view Vaughan. Where users will say oh this UI is better than some other one, but really that's got maybe 2% to do with it. Where most of the migration happens because of their psychology being exploited
tom
Again consumers don't know what they want
tom
They just want someone to sell them something and tell them what to use
tom
Especially when it comes to computers
tom
Most people don't think like you or I
tom
In fact, thinking is painful for them. They think thinking is a chore
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Vaughan
tom: I'm not saying UX is the whole story. Network effects have a lot to do with it too. But much of what you are saying is arrogant as you credit others with little intelligence or agency. There may be people in this very room who have only recently discovered xmpp and think it might be, at least in part, a path to freedom. Yet what they'll discover is that they are held in contempt by some members of this community. If you want to win converts, best not start by insulting them.
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tom
I'm merely stating an observation. If it offends someone, that's not the intention but not something I can do anything about either.
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tom
Kudos to anyone searching for a path to freedom
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stvn
People like apps with better ux
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tom
If you disagree, I emplore you to try an experiment
tom
Don't sell XMPP as a path to freedom to most people
tom
Sell it to them like they are expected to use it
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tom
And magically they will try to conform
tom
All that really matters is the perception of popularity
tom
Not freedom, for most people
stvn
What do you recommend for xmpp desktop client !
stvn
?
tom
Really depends on who I'm recommending to
tom
To a power user or someone looking for freedom I'd recommend psi+ or Profanity
tom
To someone just looking to conform I'd just tell them to use Dino
stvn
Profanity has omemi ?
stvn
Omemo
tom
Yes
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stvn
Gajim is working well
stvn
But has awful gui
tom
I would agree with you. I used Gajim until 0.16.9
tom
Then held out there for a while until switching to psi+
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tom
I don't recommend gajim anymore because I know it's heavily associated with GNOME3 since 1.x and I associate GNOME3/gnome foundation with Embrace Extend Extinguish tactics
tom
At least it's compliant though and implements a fair number of xeps
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stvn
Why gnome3 with e3 tactics ?
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tom
Based on how they treat other projects. Look through the bug tracker of deluge for instance where they were asking if deluge was a 'GNOME APP'
tom
And the refusal to implement window manager agnostic standards
tom
Search "MPV drops GNOME support"
tom
Requiring systemd to build
tom
For a while, and program that used GTK3 has forced client-side-decorations
tom
In general the GNOME ecosystem doesn't play well with the GNU and BSD ecosystem. Kind of it's own thing
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tom
There is a lot of rough edges like this that usually have to be patched downstream. But if your a package maintainer, or you use a more bleeding edge distribution you deal with these problems first hand