XMPP Service Operators - 2020-10-07

mike: I think matrix did that on purpose because they really want to be a closed centralized platform but use open sores marketing

Like even telegram markets themselvs as open sores

But that only really extends to the client. And it's not the kind of open source your used to. It's every now and then they dump a source code archive somewhere of their client and that's it.

Matrix has to have a way to differentiate itself. Also if you take a look at matrix infrastructure you'll notice it's very similar to gmail. Most users are on one big centralized server and also, there is only really 1 practical server implementation and client. Look at a list of known matrix instances and the software they are running

Unofficially using other implementations is discouraged

Plus using a standard URL format for user ids would make interop easier.

CognitiveDissonance: I've got both Synapse+Matrix via Docker and MetronomeIM + JSXC & GNU Social on my dedicated server but, they aren't used much at the moment. Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of feedback other than they're both great.

There are other server implementations in the works, they just aren't finished/production ready last I checked. There's plenty of good Matrix clients, even in F-droid.

thndrbvr: I only see Element (and 3 forks) in F-Droid. Pattle has ceased development last month. There's only Synapse+Element+matrix.org, there's money only for that, the bespoke "slack killer" VCs pay for. They bought out their competition, Gitter.

Schildichat is what I switched to the other day. Do forks (of Element) not count? They're young and may go far enough down their own path in the future.

If we want to save any project or entity from VCs, we, the people and smaller organizations, should donate or otherwise contribute (financially). Speaking from experience, it's not easy to get things off the ground without boatloads of cash.

thndrbvr: forks depend on upstream and their $$ from VCs, same I don't count Pix-Art, Snikket, Conver6at6on6 and Quicksy as "different" apps from Conversations. But we have Xabber, aTalk, yaxim, StorkIM and Movim by comparison.

thndrbvr: exactly, I'll repeat myself from elsewhere: _once the VC money drains, when their ecosystem budget matches XMPP....how will that work exactly?_

There are plenty of projects that have started as forks but eventually their codebase has changed so much that they're something else entirely. Not XMPP related but, what comes to mind ATM is Firefox -> Palemoon.

Hopefully Matrix/Element will have established enough funding elsewhere to be self sustainable and sooner or later pay off their debts. This can't be done if people chastise and boycott them for taking VC money. What we need is a true competitor to the mainstream user abusive communication platforms/whatever. I'm starting a non-profit social network that uses these among other libre softwares. Right now it's funded from my day job. Hopefully others do similar things because that's what the world needs.

The problem "with" XMPP seems to be that companies take what they can from it, slap proprietary code on top, close off decentralization aspects and only promote themselves. It'd be nice if others didn't do this. The only one I can think of would be Purism if they ever get their XMPP server up. Right now it's just Matrix-Synapse, I think. And Purism is pretty small and niche in the grand scheme of things but I feel like they're growing. They seem to have some goverment people/agencies wanting the Librem 5 phone so, who knows maybe we'll have a small influx of Purism XMPP chatters in the next couple years.

thndrbvr: I see them take $5mil every 2 years, if they have money already why sell NewVectors to pieces?

thndrbvr: they're not chastised for taking money, just for talking $hit while they're software is lacking

Do you have any idea how much of a bottomless well marketing is? Lol. And paying people livable wages.

thndrbvr: some will happen with Matrix, VCs can't into federation, past hasn't teach you anything?

What's lacking? It's perfectly usable and enjoyable.

> What's lacking? It's perfectly usable and enjoyable. thndrbvr: why are you here again?

thndrbvr: > Do you have any idea how much of a bottomless well marketing is? Lol. And paying people livable wages. Marketing iss needed....dendrite? 50% compat

Because I run a XMPP server and am interested in this technology and community. Why are you here?

What?

> Licaon_Kter wrote: > thndrbvr: some will happen with Matrix, VCs can't into federation, past hasn't teach you anything? Maybe the world is changing. I mean, Microsoft is open sourcing a bunch of their stuff and contributing ever more to Linux. Lol. I'll agree that 99% of investors may not understand freedom and want to lock people in.

I think we need to talk to schools more. Get them to use (Jitsi Meet) instead of Zoom et. al.

Why don't you run Matrix then? They ewen integrate JitsiMeet too. ✏

Why don't you run Matrix then? They even integrate JitsiMeet too. ✏

Part of the issue is that these for profit companies are instilling a certain ideology in (business) students. They market and this is what professors and management know and that's it. We need to show them other viable ways of doing things.

» <thndrbvr> The problem "with" XMPP seems to be that companies take what they can from it, slap proprietary code on top, close off decentralization aspects and only promote themselves. It'd be nice if others didn't do this. The only one I can think of would be Purism if they ever get their XMPP server up. Right now it's just Matrix-Synapse, I think. And Purism is pretty small and niche in the grand scheme of things but I feel like they're growing. They seem to have some goverment people/agencies wanting the Librem 5 phone so, who knows maybe we'll have a small influx of Purism XMPP chatters in the next couple years. I wrote about this before on a mailing list » Or Zoom could stop purposefully breaking federation with other XMPP » servers, allow anyone with an XMPP client and jingle support to » communicate instead of forcing everyone to use their trashy spyware » binary blobs. » » The worst thing about all these proprietary IM walled gardens is that » they take from the free software community but they never give back. In » fact, they leave less than nothing. They actively harm it when they » refuse to be interoperable with the very technologies they bootstrapped » their company off, like ejabberd and prosody.

I don't think zoom would or could at this point given that they're handing data over to the US gov't. They're so big now that even if they did open the doors they'd still be able to make money. But, now that they have tasted that sweet green and have gotten their fame, how could they be humble and cooperative with the community? How could they give up the attention? They're only concerned with getting even bigger and staying on top I'm sure. Never mind truly helping the world. I mean, they bought Keybase.io and for what? I haven't heard that group being able to really improve anything besides PR.

I used to be on keybase

Back when it was alpha and invite only

> thndrbvr wrote: > I don't think zoom would or could at this point given that they're handing data over to the US gov't. I must have missed that news. Have you got a link to somewhere I could read about it?

TMakarios: they use some signaling, not sure _"it's xmpp"_

Licaon_Kter: indeed has job postings for 'XMPP engineer' in silicon valley

For zoom

Yes..but from that to federation, it's a long way

Licaon_Kter, tom: I was more interested in what data they were handing to the US government, though the question of whether they use XMPP is also interesting.

Security Now and Threatwire were covering Zoom's back and forth with encryption and basically just determined not to use Zoom because they were untrustworthy.

It might be that paying customers/users can have e2e encryption but, since it's closed source, we'll never know if there's a back door.

It's not e2e

It just means your using tls if you pay

tom: they use TLS already