mike: I think matrix did that on purpose because they really want to be a closed centralized platform but use open sores marketing
tom
Like even telegram markets themselvs as open sores
tom
But that only really extends to the client. And it's not the kind of open source your used to. It's every now and then they dump a source code archive somewhere of their client and that's it.
kikuchiyohas left
tom
Matrix has to have a way to differentiate itself. Also if you take a look at matrix infrastructure you'll notice it's very similar to gmail. Most users are on one big centralized server and also, there is only really 1 practical server implementation and client. Look at a list of known matrix instances and the software they are running
tom
Unofficially using other implementations is discouraged
tom
Plus using a standard URL format for user ids would make interop easier.
derventiohas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
karimhas left
kikuchiyohas joined
karimhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
ibikkhas joined
TMakarioshas left
TMakarioshas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
solhas left
thndrbvrhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Jonnyhas joined
thndrbvrhas joined
holgerhas joined
solhas joined
karimhas left
karimhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
karimhas left
ibikkhas left
karimhas joined
stefanhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
Huxxhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
thndrbvr
CognitiveDissonance: I've got both Synapse+Matrix via Docker and MetronomeIM + JSXC & GNU Social on my dedicated server but, they aren't used much at the moment. Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of feedback other than they're both great.
thndrbvr
There are other server implementations in the works, they just aren't finished/production ready last I checked. There's plenty of good Matrix clients, even in F-droid.
mimi89999has left
holgerhas left
mimi89999has joined
solhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
stvnhas left
Licaon_Kterhas joined
holgerhas joined
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr: I only see Element (and 3 forks) in F-Droid. Pattle has ceased development last month.
There's only Synapse+Element+matrix.org, there's money only for that, the bespoke "slack killer" VCs pay for. They bought out their competition, Gitter.
Licaon_Kterhas left
thndrbvr
Schildichat is what I switched to the other day. Do forks (of Element) not count? They're young and may go far enough down their own path in the future.
Beherithas left
sonnyhas left
thndrbvr
If we want to save any project or entity from VCs, we, the people and smaller organizations, should donate or otherwise contribute (financially). Speaking from experience, it's not easy to get things off the ground without boatloads of cash.
podhas joined
Jonnyhas left
Licaon_Kterhas joined
sonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Beherithas joined
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr: forks depend on upstream and their $$ from VCs, same I don't count Pix-Art, Snikket, Conver6at6on6 and Quicksy as "different" apps from Conversations. But we have Xabber, aTalk, yaxim, StorkIM and Movim by comparison.
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr: exactly, I'll repeat myself from elsewhere: _once the VC money drains, when their ecosystem budget matches XMPP....how will that work exactly?_
sonnyhas joined
stvnhas joined
kikuchiyohas left
solhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
sonnyhas left
Nils (10rokita)has left
ibikkhas joined
Nils (10rokita)has joined
derventiohas joined
stvnhas left
perflysthas joined
stvnhas joined
thndrbvr
There are plenty of projects that have started as forks but eventually their codebase has changed so much that they're something else entirely. Not XMPP related but, what comes to mind ATM is Firefox -> Palemoon.
sonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
thndrbvr
Hopefully Matrix/Element will have established enough funding elsewhere to be self sustainable and sooner or later pay off their debts. This can't be done if people chastise and boycott them for taking VC money. What we need is a true competitor to the mainstream user abusive communication platforms/whatever.
I'm starting a non-profit social network that uses these among other libre softwares. Right now it's funded from my day job. Hopefully others do similar things because that's what the world needs.
sonnyhas left
perflysthas left
sonnyhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
thndrbvr
The problem "with" XMPP seems to be that companies take what they can from it, slap proprietary code on top, close off decentralization aspects and only promote themselves. It'd be nice if others didn't do this. The only one I can think of would be Purism if they ever get their XMPP server up. Right now it's just Matrix-Synapse, I think. And Purism is pretty small and niche in the grand scheme of things but I feel like they're growing. They seem to have some goverment people/agencies wanting the Librem 5 phone so, who knows maybe we'll have a small influx of Purism XMPP chatters in the next couple years.
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr: I see them take $5mil every 2 years, if they have money already why sell NewVectors to pieces?
kikuchiyohas left
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr: they're not chastised for taking money, just for talking $hit while they're software is lacking
thndrbvr
Do you have any idea how much of a bottomless well marketing is? Lol. And paying people livable wages.
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr: some will happen with Matrix, VCs can't into federation, past hasn't teach you anything?
thndrbvr
What's lacking? It's perfectly usable and enjoyable.
Licaon_Kter
> What's lacking? It's perfectly usable and enjoyable.
thndrbvr: why are you here again?
Jonnyhas joined
Licaon_Kter
thndrbvr:
> Do you have any idea how much of a bottomless well marketing is? Lol. And paying people livable wages.
Marketing iss needed....dendrite? 50% compat
thndrbvr
Because I run a XMPP server and am interested in this technology and community. Why are you here?
thndrbvr
What?
thndrbvr
> Licaon_Kter wrote:
> thndrbvr: some will happen with Matrix, VCs can't into federation, past hasn't teach you anything?
Maybe the world is changing. I mean, Microsoft is open sourcing a bunch of their stuff and contributing ever more to Linux. Lol. I'll agree that 99% of investors may not understand freedom and want to lock people in.
thndrbvr
I think we need to talk to schools more. Get them to use (Jitsi Meet) instead of Zoom et. al.
sonnyhas left
Licaon_Kter
Why don't you run Matrix then? They integrade JitsiMeet too.✎
Licaon_Kter
Why don't you run Matrix then? They ewen integrate JitsiMeet too. ✏
Licaon_Kter
Why don't you run Matrix then? They even integrate JitsiMeet too. ✏
sonnyhas joined
Beherithas left
thndrbvr
Part of the issue is that these for profit companies are instilling a certain ideology in (business) students. They market and this is what professors and management know and that's it. We need to show them other viable ways of doing things.
sonnyhas left
Beherithas joined
rom1dephas left
abidal3has joined
rom1dephas joined
madmalkavhas joined
TMakarioshas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
sonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
stvnhas left
schorschhas left
sonnyhas joined
stvnhas joined
rom1dephas left
tom
» <thndrbvr> The problem "with" XMPP seems to be that companies take what they can from it, slap proprietary code on top, close off decentralization aspects and only promote themselves. It'd be nice if others didn't do this. The only one I can think of would be Purism if they ever get their XMPP server up. Right now it's just Matrix-Synapse, I think. And Purism is pretty small and niche in the grand scheme of things but I feel like they're growing. They seem to have some goverment people/agencies wanting the Librem 5 phone so, who knows maybe we'll have a small influx of Purism XMPP chatters in the next couple years.
I wrote about this before on a mailing list
» Or Zoom could stop purposefully breaking federation with other XMPP
» servers, allow anyone with an XMPP client and jingle support to
» communicate instead of forcing everyone to use their trashy spyware
» binary blobs.
»
» The worst thing about all these proprietary IM walled gardens is that
» they take from the free software community but they never give back. In
» fact, they leave less than nothing. They actively harm it when they
» refuse to be interoperable with the very technologies they bootstrapped
» their company off, like ejabberd and prosody.
Jonnyhas left
kikuchiyohas joined
Jonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
Douglas Terabytehas left
Douglas Terabytehas joined
mehdihas left
brilliancehas left
thndrbvr
I don't think zoom would or could at this point given that they're handing data over to the US gov't. They're so big now that even if they did open the doors they'd still be able to make money. But, now that they have tasted that sweet green and have gotten their fame, how could they be humble and cooperative with the community? How could they give up the attention? They're only concerned with getting even bigger and staying on top I'm sure. Never mind truly helping the world. I mean, they bought Keybase.io and for what? I haven't heard that group being able to really improve anything besides PR.
tom
I used to be on keybase
tom
Back when it was alpha and invite only
derventiohas left
stvnhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Douglas Terabytehas left
Douglas Terabytehas joined
stvnhas joined
rom1dephas joined
alex-a-sotohas left
alex-a-sotohas joined
schorschhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
rom1dephas left
thndrbvrhas left
thndrbvrhas joined
abidal3has left
rom1dephas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
stvnhas left
sonnyhas left
kikuchiyohas left
stvnhas joined
sonnyhas joined
ibikkhas left
sonnyhas left
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
vanitasvitaehas left
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
sonnyhas joined
TMakarioshas joined
vanitasvitaehas joined
ibikkhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
ajeremiashas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
sonnyhas left
SouLhas left
SouLhas joined
TMakarios
> thndrbvr wrote:
> I don't think zoom would or could at this point given that they're handing data over to the US gov't.
I must have missed that news. Have you got a link to somewhere I could read about it?
sonnyhas joined
Licaon_Kter
TMakarios: they use some signaling, not sure _"it's xmpp"_
mehdihas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
Jonnyhas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
brilliancehas joined
stvnhas left
perflysthas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
sonnyhas left
brilliancehas left
brilliancehas joined
mehdihas left
sonnyhas joined
stvnhas joined
perflysthas left
tom
Licaon_Kter: indeed has job postings for 'XMPP engineer' in silicon valley
tom
For zoom
ajeremiashas left
Licaon_Kter
Yes..but from that to federation, it's a long way
stvnhas left
TMakarios
Licaon_Kter, tom: I was more interested in what data they were handing to the US government, though the question of whether they use XMPP is also interesting.
stvnhas joined
brilliancehas left
Jonnyhas joined
derventiohas joined
sonnyhas left
stvnhas left
vu764hd68fxthas joined
brilliancehas joined
stvnhas joined
mehdihas joined
Roihas left
sonnyhas joined
Roihas joined
cuchas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
vu764hd68fxthas left
vu764hd68fxthas joined
Beherithas left
Beherithas joined
sonnyhas left
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
abidal3has joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
kikuchiyohas joined
sonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
Melhas left
stvnhas left
Melhas joined
stvnhas joined
kikuchiyohas left
derventiohas left
dropshas left
dropshas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
derventiohas joined
abidal3has left
ajeremiashas joined
Bakuninhas joined
Bakuninhas left
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Pingu from Woodquarterhas left
cuchas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
brilliancehas left
cuchas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
Melhas left
Melhas joined
ajeremiashas left
404.cityhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
404.cityhas left
ajeremiashas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
alexhas left
Douglas Terabytehas left
Douglas Terabytehas joined
ajeremiashas left
vu764hd68fxthas left
korisnik5has joined
alex-a-sotohas left
alex-a-sotohas joined
loopboomhas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
abidal3has joined
ruetyhas joined
Douglas Terabytehas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
brilliancehas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
Viktor Lindberghas joined
vu764hd68fxthas joined
alexhas joined
ibikkhas left
korisnik5has left
vu764hd68fxthas left
korisnik5has joined
vu764hd68fxthas joined
korisnik5has left
korisnik5has joined
ruetyhas left
Pingu from Woodquarterhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
ajeremiashas joined
cuchas left
loopboomhas left
Melhas left
solhas left
Bakuninhas joined
Bakuninhas left
Melhas joined
carloshas left
carloshas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
ajeremiashas left
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
jayteeukhas left
jayteeukhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
solhas joined
ajeremiashas joined
stvnhas left
stvnhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
schorschhas left
raghavgururajanhas left
raghavgururajanhas joined
antranigvhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
ajeremiashas left
vu764hd68fxthas left
vu764hd68fxthas joined
ibikkhas joined
stvnhas left
ajeremiashas joined
sonnyhas left
stvnhas joined
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
sonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
kikuchiyohas joined
kikuchiyohas left
sonnyhas joined
thndrbvr
Security Now and Threatwire were covering Zoom's back and forth with encryption and basically just determined not to use Zoom because they were untrustworthy.
thndrbvr
It might be that paying customers/users can have e2e encryption but, since it's closed source, we'll never know if there's a back door.