XMPP Service Operators - 2020-12-14


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  78. Ellenor Malik oh god
  79. Ellenor Malik can someone help me diagnose a correct-password unauthorized problem?
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  251. mimi89999 https://is.gd/SyJF9o
  252. mimi89999 Is that the Jabber spam service?
  253. mimi89999 BTW, got spam from `intercoracoid@404.city`.
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  255. mimi89999 real and rare
  256. Ge0rG mimi89999: that's a jabber spam service indeed
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  258. mimi89999 Can the operators of those servers remove their accounts or we block their servers?
  259. mimi89999 Who is the admin of 404 city?
  260. Ge0rG he's often here as 404city
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  262. mimi89999 I'm flooded with spam from that server now.
  263. mimi89999 Like one message every 10 sec
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  265. Ge0rG mimi89999: from the same account or from different ones?
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  267. mimi89999 Where is he?
  268. mimi89999 Same
  269. Ge0rG mimi89999: I've pinged the admin now
  270. tom Yes there's a channel
  271. tom A process
  272. tom You have to give them some time to proccess the abuse request though before they get in a blocklist
  273. mimi89999 OK. Can you link the channel/form/whatever?
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  275. tom What's that private spamfighting muc on yax.im again?
  276. tom I got an invite ounce but forgot about it
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  279. Ge0rG it doesn't exist any more
  280. tom mimi89999: https://github.com/JabberSPAM
  281. mimi89999 How to quickly block a JID server level?
  282. tom With mod_firewall
  283. tom Or for a specific account
  284. tom https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html
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  445. bastoon > mimi89999: https://github.com/JabberSPAM Should it rather contain only registered domain names (to ICANN registrars) and not sub-domains? This might break implementations if you change the format in a hurry (and that probably will one day).
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  451. bastoon > mimi89999: https://github.com/JabberSPAM Shouldn't it rather contain only registered domain names (to ICANN registrars) and not sub-domains? This might break implementations if you change the format in a hurry (and that probably will one day).
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  456. bastoon > mimi89999: https://github.com/JabberSPAM Why this list contains FQDNs. IMO no need for sub-domains, and only disavantages. Then if format is changed in a hurry, this may break current implementation (and that probably will one day).
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  458. bastoon > mimi89999: https://github.com/JabberSPAM Why do this list contain FQDNs. IMO no need for sub-domains, only cons. Then if format is changed in a hurry, this may break current implementation (and that probably will one day).
  459. Martin bastoon: Because some xmppds are served on a subdomain.
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  463. bastoon Martin: I'm sure spammers will exploit the possibility to infinite subs. Then don't think you'll ever have to consider multiple (sub) servers per names, one being ok, the other one spammer.
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  465. bastoon Martin: I'm sure spammers will exploit the possibility to infinite subs. Then I don't think you'll ever have to consider multiple (sub) servers per names, one being ok, the other one spammer.
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  468. bastoon Martin: I'm quite sure spammers will exploit the possibility to infinite subs. Then I don't think you'll ever have to consider multiple (sub) servers per names, one being ok, the other one spammer.
  469. bastoon Martin: I'm quite sure spammers will exploit the possibility of infinite subs. Then I don't think you'll ever have to consider multiple (sub) servers per names, one being ok, the other one spammer.
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  472. Martin Spammers usually use unmaintained servers with IBR and do not fire up own servers.
  473. Martin Also there is this case: Befor I was running my xmppd on a shared hoster. If I would not have used my own domain it would have been running at user.tucana.uberspace.de. So if I spam why should the innocent xmppd another-user.tucana.uberspace.de also be blocked?
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  475. bastoon Because he could fire you from using his domain before being considered as spammer. Just thought it would be simpler, lighter and more robust against spammer, but surely bad sides to investigate / accommodate.
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  498. Martin > Because he could fire you from using his domain before being considered as spammer. I don't understand this.
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  520. kahlb This list even blacklists creep.im, which is one of the more popular public servers (among the gajim Standard Servers). Not a good Idea I think, it might break xmpp
  521. raucao > it might break xmpp how so? it merely breaks creep.im if they don't get their spam users under control
  522. raucao that's what a federation is for
  523. creep.im creep.im is a known spam server
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  525. raucao :)
  526. Martin kahlb: The issue was that the operator was not reachable on his 0157 contacts. You'll see the history in my MR.
  527. Martin Unfortunately we found him in here just after it got merged.
  528. bastoon > I don't understand this. From your example uberspace.de is still in control to allow/disallow a sub domains (on spam complaining).
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  530. Martin Yes, that's why you should report spammers. But blocking all operators from one domain because one is spamming is not useful.
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  533. raucao Operators are free to choose
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  536. Ge0rG let's block all OVH and Hetzner then?
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  543. mathieui operators being unreachable while their server is used as a spam relay is a valid reason for inclusion in spam lists
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  548. Ge0rG mathieui: how long should one wait to determine "unrechable"?
  549. mathieui Ge0rG, no available means of contact
  550. mathieui if one is available, I guess it’s up to you
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  553. raucao > let's block all OVH and Hetzner then? hetzner do actually block your server's network traffic if you spam their local network
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  556. Ge0rG raucao: but hetzner isn't using xmpp internally.
  557. raucao comparing someone using a hetzner server to spamming the outside network with the hetzner network itself makes no sense
  558. raucao the xmpp spam server is not a data center
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  560. raucao it is a specific service running under a specific domain
  561. Ge0rG raucao: what's your point?
  562. raucao what is yours
  563. raucao your comparison was a non-sequitur
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  566. raucao > operators being unreachable while their server is used as a spam relay is a valid reason for inclusion in spam lists this is the point that some people seem to disagree with, and so far there were no valid arguments against it brought forward here
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  575. Ge0rG raucao: my response was to the point about blocking all of uberspace if there are spammy servers on there.
  576. Arne do those spammers use some settings?
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  579. Arne like a special cipher for prosody
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  582. Arne or a deprecated maybe
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  585. Arne so we need to change all our settings ;D
  586. Ge0rG Arne: spammers register accounts on free servers.
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  589. Ge0rG Ah, it was strato who requested headers as evidence for the spam I reported.
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  592. bastoon > let's block all OVH and Hetzner then? OVH automatically forwards whois alias to real mails. I don't get this point. Moreover XEP (if generalized) make the process operator independent.
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  594. raucao > raucao: my response was to the point about blocking all of uberspace if there are spammy servers on there. sry, i didn't see that someone wanted to block all of uberspace
  595. raucao i thought it was in response to blocking creep.im
  596. raucao mea culpa
  597. Ge0rG bastoon: of the two reports I sent to OVH, one server got shot down, and for the other one I never heard back
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  600. Ge0rG kode.im and im.koderoot.net are the #1 and #2 sources of spam for me for the last weeks.
  601. Ge0rG creep.im is #3. creep.im, wanna have a new list of JIDs to delete?
  602. creep.im shoot it. you have my JID
  603. Arne mh, maybe free inbandregistration is not really good xD
  604. mimi89999 BTW, are SPAM reports verified in any way?
  605. mimi89999 Ge0rG: Did 404 admin respond?
  606. Ge0rG mimi89999: haven't seen them online yet
  607. Ge0rG Arne: yes, you shouldn't do it if you don't want to be a full time anti-spam admin
  608. Arne I use my own webregistration combined with some other things
  609. Ge0rG mimi89999: how would you verify them? I always send logs to the ISP / server admin so they can match against their own logs
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  612. creep.im I do IBR and I am only removing spam accounts by request
  613. creep.im it's not much work
  614. creep.im although this is meaningless: spammers easily create dozens of new accounts
  615. Ge0rG creep.im: it's only not much work if nobody reports ;)
  616. mimi89999 I used to get spam from creep.im, but I'm not getting anymore
  617. Ge0rG hundreds.
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  620. creep.im if you care about your users, the best bet to filter spam at the receiving side
  621. creep.im I told you guys like a million times
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  623. Ge0rG creep.im: you mean, each user must filter spam on their own?
  624. creep.im but for some reason you are afraid of captcha
  625. creep.im not user. server. there are plugins for that
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  628. Ge0rG captchas are bad for usability
  629. creep.im you only enter it once
  630. creep.im not a big deal for usability
  631. Ge0rG what if you can't read well?
  632. creep.im you want to create a walled garden without spammers, introducing your custom esoteric registration systems, but his is it different from WhatsApp? it's actually less usable than WhatsApp
  633. creep.im you want to create a walled garden without spammers, introducing your custom esoteric registration systems, but how is it different from WhatsApp? it's actually less usable than WhatsApp
  634. mjk Ge0rG, creep.im: audio captcha is a thing, too
  635. mimi89999 creep.im: So every time I want to contact a new new account I need to fill a captcha?
  636. Ge0rG mjk: but not in the typical xmpp captcha "solutions"
  637. Ge0rG creep.im: my server has IBR and no captchas
  638. creep.im you fight spammers, but spammers don't care. users are hurt instead
  639. Ge0rG same with captchas ;)
  640. mimi89999 Would be better to fill the captcha once.
  641. mimi89999 On registration
  642. creep.im Ge0rG: you have IBR with your custom esoteric filtration system, I heard about it
  643. mjk Ge0rG: > but not in the typical xmpp captcha "solutions" Unfortunately. I was nudging creep.im to think about it :)
  644. creep.im Ge0rG: now open source it and encourage everyone to use it
  645. Ge0rG creep.im: I'm doing RBL checks against dnsbl.dronebl.org with ready-made prosody modules
  646. stvn has joined
  647. creep.im write an article about it, I don't know. a lot of people have no idea how to approach this problem
  648. Ge0rG creep.im: https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/05/12/new-anti-spam-measures/
  649. stefan has joined
  650. Ge0rG oh, spammers are also solving recaptcha to register bot accounts.
  651. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: > I'm doing RBL checks against dnsbl.dronebl.org with ready-made prosody modules That site is down?
  652. Ge0rG Licaon_Kter: https://dronebl.org/ - the other one is the RBL address
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  655. Licaon_Kter Oh
  656. creep.im > creep.im: https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/05/12/new-anti-spam-measures/ great job. someone will definitely find that helpful. although not privacy-oriented operators, who want to keep legitimate Proxy/Tor users using the service
  657. stvn has left
  658. Ge0rG creep.im: legitimate Tor users can connect via Tor, join the yaxim support MUC and ask to be unblocked.
  659. creep.im how do you distinguish if the user is legitimate?
  660. Ge0rG creep.im: I don't ask questions.
  661. creep.im also, there may be dozens of such requests
  662. creep.im on a day
  663. raucao why would you in the first place. if they spam, the account gets blocked
  664. raucao tor or not
  665. Ge0rG creep.im: I had a dozen of such requests since I made that policy
  666. Ge0rG creep.im: a spammer will register hundreds or thousands of accounts at the same time
  667. creep.im how many such requests you receive daily?
  668. Ge0rG creep.im: I had a dozen of such requests since I made that policy
  669. Ge0rG that's two per month
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  672. creep.im are there a lot of daily registrations?
  673. qnix has left
  674. creep.im proxied and regular
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  677. Ge0rG 100 - 500 per month
  678. Ge0rG I don't count the proxy registrations, I only count the ones that complain
  679. creep.im that's manageable
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  682. Ge0rG I also have hundreds of bot registrations sometimes, so it's hard to tell for sure
  683. creep.im anyway, you are coming up with your own solutions to a common problem. there should be a universal ready made way of doing this. like a plugin, or a built-in fictionally right in the server(s). manual process is a no go, especially for one-man server operations
  684. Licaon_Kter creep.im: redo everything on Prosody then, easy :)
  685. Ge0rG creep.im: I've documented my way and made the tools accessible. Somebody else needs to do the same for ejabberd.
  686. creep.im Licaon_Kter: it'll still not be automated
  687. Ge0rG creep.im: spammers will circumvent automated systems
  688. creep.im somehow I didn't get a single spam message in months...
  689. creep.im a lot of accounts add me daily
  690. creep.im I guess miss of them are spammers
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  692. Ge0rG I had to solve a captcha before reporting spam to you :P
  693. creep.im yes, this is how it works
  694. creep.im my point is that it is automated and it works
  695. Ge0rG it's automated for you, not for the people who want to talk to you
  696. Ge0rG well, maybe for the spammers who can just buy captchas for 5$/1000
  697. creep.im still, seems like they're not doing that
  698. creep.im I guess they just spam another servers
  699. creep.im I guess they just spam other servers
  700. Ge0rG creep.im: I know that spammers are buying into IBR captchas, because you buy one, and send thousans of spam messages
  701. Beherit has left
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  703. creep.im IBR captchas... maybe. but to be able to actually send messages, you have to solve another captcha, also you have to be added by the other party as well
  704. creep.im only then you are free to chat
  705. nickomemo has joined
  706. creep.im anyway, this is rather a temporary measure until the real solution will be available
  707. Ge0rG the real solution: people who don't click on spam
  708. creep.im "temporary" could mean for next few years...
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  711. Licaon_Kter We are well beyond years already
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  735. Martin The captcha spam was the reason I could not contact creep.im
  736. Martin I got spammed with requests to fill a captcha and did so several times. Still my messages didn't get through. That was pretty annoying and I had to block him to make his server spam me with captcha requests. That's why I contacted him t
  737. Martin I got spammed with requests to fill a captcha and did so several times. Still my messages didn't get through. That was pretty annoying and I had to block him to make his server spam me with captcha requests. That's why I tried to contact him via email.
  738. patasca has left
  739. creep.im I didn't add you back immediately, that's why you've been "spammed" by captcha
  740. creep.im better to spam sender with captcha, then the other way around, right?
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  745. Martin Captchas are just the most annoying UX in spam fighting.
  746. Martin Those block stranger modules break XMPP.
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  752. mjk Could the invite-only model be the ultimate solution? If, by chance, a rare spammer is invited and then invites a horde of other spammers, the whole sub-tree of accounts can be efficiently truncated manually
  753. mjk That, of course, requires storing the data on who invited whom
  754. arne-bruen has left
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  756. mjk That is, basically, a social graph. A nutritious, concentrated, morsel of user data...
  757. mjk Ugh.
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  764. Martin Invitations are nice for family and friends servers but not for public ones.
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  766. raucao we have closed regs and just started with invitations. but not public yet
  767. raucao in the future we're adding lightning network payments for signups
  768. raucao that way a spammer would have to pay for their account first. that makes it both harder to automate it as well as introduces a cost
  769. raucao i think users inviting other users is generally a good idea
  770. raucao obviously having to donate/pay upfront introduces friction, but then again pretty much any effective anti-spam mesure does
  771. raucao s/mesure/measure
  772. junaid > better to spam sender with captcha, then the other way around, right? creep.im: hence why you dont get many spam complaints. Maybe operators choose to block the domain instead?
  773. raucao i think there are also many other ways to have semi-open signups where it's difficult to create many accounts and also easier to shut spammers down
  774. ntuseracc has left
  775. Martin The RBL approach seems to work well for Ge0rG in reducing spam bots on yax.im.
  776. stvn has left
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  778. mathieui the RBL approach prevents 99.99% of automated IBR registrations
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  783. bastoon Or use bitcoin approach to discourage spammers: let the user waste cpu power at registration.
  784. bastoon Or use bitcoin approach to discourage spammers: let the user waste cpu power at registration. But indeed spammer will waste *others* cpu for their benefit ;-)
  785. bastoon Or use bitcoin approach to discourage spammers: let the user waste cpu power at registration. But indeed spammers will try to waste your cpu for their benefit ;-)
  786. bastoon Or use bitcoin approach to discourage spammers: let the user waste cpu power at registration.
  787. mjk > But indeed spammers will try to waste your cpu for their benefit ;-) Yeah, botnets are totally immune to proof-of-work-based filtering. Actual payments, though...
  788. j.r (jugendhacker.de) has left
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  791. raucao Exactly
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  831. tom bastoon: that doesnt work because you need to mine a whole block to get a payout
  832. bastoon I'm not talking about Bitcoin directly but proof of work related challenge. So can be adapted to every situation.
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  834. bastoon I was just talking about Bitcoin related principle (rather said proof-of-work). So can be adapted to every situation.
  835. bastoon I was just talking about Bitcoin related principle (rather said proof-of-work). So can be adapted to every situation. Ex challenge: find a hash which verify sha-256(JID + random block) < X With X given by server.
  836. bastoon I was just talking about Bitcoin related principle (rather said proof-of-work). So can be adapted to every situation. Ex challenge: find X which verify sha-256(JID + random X < Y With Y given by server.
  837. bastoon I was just talking about Bitcoin related principle (rather said proof-of-work). So can be adapted to every situation. Ex challenge: find X which verify sha-256(JID + random X) < Y With Y given by server.
  838. stvn has joined
  839. tom bastoon:
  840. tom All this digital methods are not very effective or degrade accessibility in my opinion
  841. tom And even then
  842. tom Well
  843. mehdi has joined
  844. tom It's just a matter of how much of a skid the spammer is
  845. tom Here's a recommendation and I want to give this to the creep.im admin too
  846. perflyst has joined
  847. tom In the old days when we wanted to registered for an account on the shared UNIX system we shelled in (can be a special ssh user like registration@yourdomain.tld) and that user was redirected to a terminal forum program
  848. stvn has left
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  851. tom You entered the username and other detailed you wanted then you were given a code
  852. tom In order to activate your account all you had to do was mail a postcard to the sysadmin with that code written on it
  853. tom You can still anonymously mail letters so this doesn't hurt anonymity
  854. tom And you can mail letters from anywhere in the world
  855. tom Postcards are universal
  856. tom It also gives you an opportunity to build a collage and a better sense of community
  857. tom When you receive the postcard you just type it into your server to lookup the reg details and activate the account
  858. tom If you don't get a poscard in 30 days for a code you purge the reg info
  859. tom Most spammers don't bother when the turing test is in meatspace and costs actual money
  860. Viktor Lindberg has left
  861. tom Not much mind you postage and a postcard are only a few cents even worldwide postage
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  864. jonas’ doesn’t scale though
  865. tom Anybody can afford to send a postcard
  866. jonas’ imagines handling 1k postcards / day
  867. jonas’ or even per week
  868. Ellenor Malik :O
  869. jonas’ or month
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  872. tom jonas’: i doubt that many reges are legit and if your that scale then geeze you would be replacing bigtech and FAANGs
  873. tom But
  874. tom If you were
  875. tom Just replace the postcard with a printable form and buy a SCANTRON machine
  876. tom The same kind of machine they use for standardized tests
  877. jonas’ SCANTRON :D
  878. raucao > bastoon: that doesnt work because you need to mine a whole block to get a payout That's what lightning network is for
  879. raucao Instant cobfirmation, virtually no fee
  880. tom This things scale up to nationwide elections
  881. raucao Extra bonus with LN is that you could block a spammer's LN node, too
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  884. tom https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=scantron&_sacat=0
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  890. tom jonas’: you really get over 1k legit reges a day?
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  898. jonas’ tom, no, I don’t run a public server
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