XMPP Service Operators - 2021-01-10

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  19. theadmiralty jayteeuk: that's what I have meant by disgusting. It was a bad response
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  26. argon3771 I'm thinking about setting up a small (family only) xmpp server at home. Would a raspberry pi be OK for say 5-10 users? Not sure if anyone has any experience with that. Sorry if this isn't the right place.
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  31. henrik Yeah, should be ok. You may want to pick ejabberd due to lower RAM usage
  32. henrik https://thomas-leister.de/en/migrating-trashserver-prosody-ejabberd/
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  36. Link Mauve I could have said the opposite, in my experience Prosody uses much lower amounts of memory on a small and medium-sized server. :)
  37. Link Mauve Although I haven’t tried Ejabberd ever since I migrated off it to Prosody some years ago, it might have improved a lot since then.
  38. Link Mauve Prosody currently takes me 49 MiB of RAM, for about three users daily.
  39. henrik It may have improved since that article was written. I'm running a small ejabberd server using 90 MiB, ie. both should be ok for a modern Rpi
  40. bastoon "Too fast"
  41. bastoon "Too fast"
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  46. argon3771 I run ejabberd right now but, I've heard a lot of good things about prosody. It seems like 6 of one half a dozen of the other so. Thanks for the advice. I have a few pi's laying around so, figured I'd set something up
  47. argon3771 I run ejabberd on a bigger scale, I should say.
  48. argon3771 My other concern is having it securely accessed from outside my LAN. I guess that's the tradeoff of running on my own hardware rather than a VPS.
  49. henrik Mostly the same as running other types of home servers if you keep registration closed.
  50. argon3771 Yea, registration will be closed, plus it won't be federated.
  51. tom A raspberry pi is more than enough dedotated wam
  52. tom For modern pwosody
  53. argon3771 Sounds great.
  54. tom Netbsd works great the the raspberry pis btw
  55. tom Netbsd 9
  56. tom I've had much improve stability over using linux on the pis
  57. jayteeuk > jayteeuk: that's what I have meant by disgusting. It was a bad response Ah, gotcha. Yes, I agree. The whole thread makes for depressing reading.
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  60. argon3771 Oh interesting. I've never played with the BSDs on a pi. I've ran OpenBSD on desktop here and there but, for me it never was what I needed at the time. I'll look at NetBSD. Thank you for the advice.
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  68. tom Netbsd also has much better memory management than linux
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  70. argon3771 Sounds good. I'll play with it and see how it works for me. And it has no issues running prosody or ejabberd?
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  90. tom No
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  95. argon3771 Great.
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  120. tom https://upload.nuegia.net/dd3aae15-315e-4eb1-87f0-930ac6998bc6/bsdhouse.png
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  122. benharri at least it wasn't windows lol
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  206. Licaon_Kter Link Mauve: > I could have said the opposite, in my experience Prosody uses much lower amounts of memory on a small and medium-sized server. :) Does Prosody first cache uploaded files in memory?
  207. Licaon_Kter argon3771: > I'm thinking about setting up a small (family only) xmpp server at home. Would a raspberry pi be OK for say 5-10 users? Not sure if anyone has any experience with that. Sorry if this isn't the right place. Pi1 at least 80 users Pi3+ al least 500 users
  208. Licaon_Kter *SD card I/O limits actually, eg. Without http_upload up to 200 & 1500. *ejabberd/postgresql
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  260. ff255 Can you please share some _homeserver using experience_. I'm worried about SDcard, how long it will usually live ?
  261. mathieui pick a random number and that will tell you
  262. mathieui seriously though: you should not store things on a micro sd card, use an externally powered hard drive instead
  263. mathieui The more activity happens on your server, the faster the card will die
  264. mathieui they are generally not designed for extended activity (heat in particular), or constant writes
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  266. mathieui it may work months, years, but at some point it will fail, some times silently and then your data is toast
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  268. Kris the same can be said about hard-drives 😉 That's why you should do backups :p
  269. mathieui Kris, much less frequently though
  270. mathieui (but yes, you should do backups)
  271. mathieui ansd you generally can use SMART information to detect that in advance
  272. mathieui also, SSDs are less prone to failure and cheap now
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  274. Licaon_Kter > Can you please share some _homeserver using experience_. I'm worried about SDcard, how long it will usually live ? Dunno Use only Sandisk Extreme/Ultra or Samsung EVO plus And backups
  275. Licaon_Kter mathieui: > also, SSDs are less prone to failure and cheap now Usually, avoid cheap ones
  276. mathieui well, I’m not talking about random off-brand names
  277. mathieui but even crucial MX500 drives are not *that* expensive nowadays
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  280. mathieui and generally the failure rates are higher, but not by a lot, the difference in price often means a reduced cache (which is fine unless you want top-notch performance) and write endurance, which can be monitored
  281. Kris well, yes. SD cards generally do have quality issues, but with a good backup strategy they can work in low write scenarious. also it helps to run them with ample free space so that the flash memory can level the writes better.
  282. Licaon_Kter Is A-Data offbrand? I think I've had them almost all changed after one year :( in a desktop context
  283. mathieui Kris, that means disabling logs or writing most of them to tmpfs (but not possible when you are as constrained as a rpi)
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  285. mathieui I guess I should give a try to anything-sync-daemon for /var/log
  286. Licaon_Kter That reminds me that I should probably need to change my SD too soon
  287. mathieui Licaon_Kter, it is a brand but not a very reliable one :D, most of my cheapest SD cards are Adata and I do not trust them
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  289. Licaon_Kter mathieui: I mean A-Data SSDs
  290. Licaon_Kter For RPi > Use only Sandisk Extreme/Ultra or Samsung EVO plus See those tests by someone
  291. mathieui yeah but I have not even seen an A-Data SSD yet
  292. Licaon_Kter They're the bestbuys of black fridays :(
  293. Kris not sure, but the only SSD I ever had to replace was indeed an Adata. Oh and a Lexar that didn't work properly in the first place.
  294. mathieui (so far I have crucial, intel, kingston, sandisk and PNY here, no failure so far after years)
  295. Licaon_Kter Watchout for Kingston...they have both good and bad series Eg. See the V300 scandal from years ago
  296. Kris oh, what happend there?
  297. mathieui Yes, I stopped buying them anyway, but for €20 drives sustaining non-intensive usage, the drives are enough
  298. Licaon_Kter Sent reviewers units, great scores In stores ship shitty memory chips
  299. mathieui nowadays I’m optimizing for reliability rather than cost so I have shifted the prices a bit
  300. Licaon_Kter https://www.anandtech.com/show/7763/an-update-to-kingston-ssdnow-v300-a-switch-to-slower-micron-nand
  301. Kris ah, actually switching chips after some months of sale seems to be more and more common with cheap SSDs. never trust reviews for those 😉
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  304. Kris seems to be partially a supply chain issue and not malice
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  306. ff255 Thanks.. i'm planning to buy ssd for data, but until that it's working on sdcard. Hope it'll live half-year/year with little load (2 users now) and armbian-ramlog
  307. mathieui 2 users should be fine
  308. Licaon_Kter Their HyperX line was ok, but after that experience the damage lasted. Can't recommend them anymore, nor A-Data (multiple series with failing units in non-server context)
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  312. Kris I guess buying samsung makes sense since AFAIK they have their own production and thus do have less quality variance.
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  314. Kris but on the other hand: backup, backup, backup 😉
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  392. argon3771 Licaon_Kter: OK so the pi3 is way more than enough for what I need. Great.
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  399. argon3771 I switched over my one pi to boot and run of a USB flash stick, I'll probably do it with this one too to get away from the SD card issue
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  409. Arne actually why not using cheap used notebook mainboards instead of raspberry pi? :)
  410. Licaon_Kter Arne: lower power, less space, arm :)
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  413. Arne Licaon_Kter: some laptop mainboards doesnt use much more power, and whats the advantage of arm?
  414. Licaon_Kter Eh
  415. Arne I can even set a normal PC to just consume 20 W
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  417. Licaon_Kter Arne: ain't that like 5x more than a FULLy used arm sbc? And it will sit idle mostly...
  418. Arne pi4 uses 15 Watt or not?
  419. Arne maximum
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  424. Link Mauve My (non-raspberry) SBC consumes at most 2.5W, as that’s what the power supply is rated for, and most of the time while it’s idle it consumes a lot less than that.
  425. Link Mauve The one time I measured it it was a bit lower than 1W.
  426. Link Mauve For comparison, my Thinkpad x280 consumes 2.7W on idle with the backlight set at minimum.
  427. Link Mauve It can use up to 30W under full load, but it’s also much faster. :)
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  430. Arne Depends on the SBC for sure. pi 4 uses 3A*5V
  431. Arne What SBC do you use Link Mauve ?
  432. Link Mauve Arne, this one: https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/A20-OLinuXino-LIME2/open-source-hardware
  433. Link Mauve Been using it as my main server since 2014, and pretty happy with it. :)
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  436. Arne nice :)
  437. Arne and open Hardware? :)
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  442. Link Mauve Yup. ^^
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  452. mjk > pi 4 uses 3A*5V Is this the recommendation for the PSU (which would include powering the peripherials) or what the board only consumes?
  453. mjk Arne: > pi 4 uses 3A*5V Is this the recommendation for the PSU (which would include powering the peripherials) or what the board only consumes?
  454. mathieui this is what the stock PSU provide, but I wouldn’t expect it to power peripherals
  455. mathieui (because you can always go wayy beyond the power envelope with peripherals)
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  462. mjk True. But pi3's default PSU was, like, 2.3 or 2.5 amps (the point is: not much less than pi4's), and, if I'm not mistaken, most of that was allocated for the peripherials. So the SoC's consumption should still be pretty low, be it pi3 or 4
  463. mathieui well, the CPU in pi4 is much beefier than pi3, so I would expect consumption to increase
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  465. Kris the PI4 is definity not the most power efficient arm SBC (22nm AFAIK), but the 15W is really worst case scenario
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  467. Kris most the time it will near idle and use much less
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  470. mathieui and then you have to add the cooling fan to the power envelope :D
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  479. mjk At least there _is_ an official fan now!
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  487. argon3771 The main reason I'm using a Pi is because I have a few just laying around.
  488. argon3771 And I'm looking for some interesting things to do with them.
  489. 404.city >Link Mauve: >> I could have said the opposite, in my experience Prosody uses much lower amounts of memory on a small and medium-sized server. :) Most of the problems are created not by real users, but by spammers. XMPP is not resource intensive.
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  492. Link Mauve For a family server, spammers are irrelevant, they won’t be able to create an account on an invite-only server.
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  495. 404.city Link Mauve, 1 GB of memory is enough for a home server. Can be run on smaller configurations as well. My record is 250 active users on 128 RAM along with the system) Prosody & Ejabberd / x86 32-bit. Debian 8 or 9
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  498. Link Mauve :)
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  501. 404.city Much depends on how you set it up. What version of the system and software to use. Rumor has it that some managed to run Ejabberd + OS on 64 megabytes (old software version)
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  552. argon3771 I'll run it and see how it goes. I can't see having any more than 10 users. Maybe 15 at the absolute most if I get some friends to switch to it too. I have other options but, I figured the pi would be easiest. I could just spend the $5 a month for a small vps, less of a risk than running it on my own home network but, what fun would that be.
  553. Licaon_Kter argon3771: which Pi?
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  556. ernst.on.tour Maybe this will give some points https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption
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  586. argon3771 3b
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  589. Arne thanks for this list ernst.on.tour
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  598. ernst.on.tour I serve a Pi3b+ for ~160 accounts, 40 active with 10-15 heavy active, no problem. Sometimes (after reboot when all sessions dropped and build up again) there are timeouts because sharedusergroups/bookmarkgroups need to build up for every of this 160 users at the same time. Therefor reboot is done at night.
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  600. argon3771 That's great. that's way more than I need then. Does that also include more than messaging? The availability of voice calling for example or is your server strictly text/http uploads?
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  602. Kris other than a lightweight STUN server to improve connections, voice calling in p2p in the current implementations and thus doesn't involve the server
  603. Kris *is
  604. Kris a TURN server might be too taxing for a Rasberry, but STUN should be no issue what so ever
  605. Licaon_Kter Kris: it's about 60% of one core for video via TURN on 3+
  606. Kris ah, thats less than I expected
  607. Licaon_Kter Also, it's used most of the time, have one user on a Wi-Fi and the STUN is not enough
  608. Kris you mean a publuc wifi?
  609. Kris *publc
  610. Kris *public
  611. Licaon_Kter Kris: no, normal homes
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  614. Kris really? didn't have that problem so far
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  621. argon3771 Ah that's right. Forgot that its p2p. Still learning stuff.
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  671. Holger I would think Wi-Fi totally depends on how the NAT of the Wi-Fi/WAN router works.
  672. Holger On mobile networks, you almost always need TURN relaying.
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