XMPP Service Operators - 2021-01-10

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  19. theadmiralty

    jayteeuk: that's what I have meant by disgusting. It was a bad response

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  26. argon3771

    I'm thinking about setting up a small (family only) xmpp server at home. Would a raspberry pi be OK for say 5-10 users? Not sure if anyone has any experience with that. Sorry if this isn't the right place.

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  31. henrik

    Yeah, should be ok. You may want to pick ejabberd due to lower RAM usage

  32. henrik


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  36. Link Mauve

    I could have said the opposite, in my experience Prosody uses much lower amounts of memory on a small and medium-sized server. :)

  37. Link Mauve

    Although I haven’t tried Ejabberd ever since I migrated off it to Prosody some years ago, it might have improved a lot since then.

  38. Link Mauve

    Prosody currently takes me 49 MiB of RAM, for about three users daily.

  39. henrik

    It may have improved since that article was written. I'm running a small ejabberd server using 90 MiB, ie. both should be ok for a modern Rpi

  40. bastoon

    "Too fast"

  41. bastoon

    "Too fast"

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  46. argon3771

    I run ejabberd right now but, I've heard a lot of good things about prosody. It seems like 6 of one half a dozen of the other so. Thanks for the advice. I have a few pi's laying around so, figured I'd set something up

  47. argon3771

    I run ejabberd on a bigger scale, I should say.

  48. argon3771

    My other concern is having it securely accessed from outside my LAN. I guess that's the tradeoff of running on my own hardware rather than a VPS.

  49. henrik

    Mostly the same as running other types of home servers if you keep registration closed.

  50. argon3771

    Yea, registration will be closed, plus it won't be federated.

  51. tom

    A raspberry pi is more than enough dedotated wam

  52. tom

    For modern pwosody

  53. argon3771

    Sounds great.

  54. tom

    Netbsd works great the the raspberry pis btw

  55. tom

    Netbsd 9

  56. tom

    I've had much improve stability over using linux on the pis

  57. jayteeuk

    > jayteeuk: that's what I have meant by disgusting. It was a bad response Ah, gotcha. Yes, I agree. The whole thread makes for depressing reading.

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  60. argon3771

    Oh interesting. I've never played with the BSDs on a pi. I've ran OpenBSD on desktop here and there but, for me it never was what I needed at the time. I'll look at NetBSD. Thank you for the advice.

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  68. tom

    Netbsd also has much better memory management than linux

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  70. argon3771

    Sounds good. I'll play with it and see how it works for me. And it has no issues running prosody or ejabberd?

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  122. benharri

    at least it wasn't windows lol

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  206. Licaon_Kter

    Link Mauve: > I could have said the opposite, in my experience Prosody uses much lower amounts of memory on a small and medium-sized server. :) Does Prosody first cache uploaded files in memory?

  207. Licaon_Kter

    argon3771: > I'm thinking about setting up a small (family only) xmpp server at home. Would a raspberry pi be OK for say 5-10 users? Not sure if anyone has any experience with that. Sorry if this isn't the right place. Pi1 at least 80 users Pi3+ al least 500 users

  208. Licaon_Kter

    *SD card I/O limits actually, eg. Without http_upload up to 200 & 1500. *ejabberd/postgresql

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  260. ff255

    Can you please share some _homeserver using experience_. I'm worried about SDcard, how long it will usually live ?

  261. mathieui

    pick a random number and that will tell you

  262. mathieui

    seriously though: you should not store things on a micro sd card, use an externally powered hard drive instead

  263. mathieui

    The more activity happens on your server, the faster the card will die

  264. mathieui

    they are generally not designed for extended activity (heat in particular), or constant writes

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  266. mathieui

    it may work months, years, but at some point it will fail, some times silently and then your data is toast

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  268. Kris

    the same can be said about hard-drives 😉 That's why you should do backups :p

  269. mathieui

    Kris, much less frequently though

  270. mathieui

    (but yes, you should do backups)

  271. mathieui

    ansd you generally can use SMART information to detect that in advance

  272. mathieui

    also, SSDs are less prone to failure and cheap now

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  274. Licaon_Kter

    > Can you please share some _homeserver using experience_. I'm worried about SDcard, how long it will usually live ? Dunno Use only Sandisk Extreme/Ultra or Samsung EVO plus And backups

  275. Licaon_Kter

    mathieui: > also, SSDs are less prone to failure and cheap now Usually, avoid cheap ones

  276. mathieui

    well, I’m not talking about random off-brand names

  277. mathieui

    but even crucial MX500 drives are not *that* expensive nowadays

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  280. mathieui

    and generally the failure rates are higher, but not by a lot, the difference in price often means a reduced cache (which is fine unless you want top-notch performance) and write endurance, which can be monitored

  281. Kris

    well, yes. SD cards generally do have quality issues, but with a good backup strategy they can work in low write scenarious. also it helps to run them with ample free space so that the flash memory can level the writes better.

  282. Licaon_Kter

    Is A-Data offbrand? I think I've had them almost all changed after one year :( in a desktop context

  283. mathieui

    Kris, that means disabling logs or writing most of them to tmpfs (but not possible when you are as constrained as a rpi)

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  285. mathieui

    I guess I should give a try to anything-sync-daemon for /var/log

  286. Licaon_Kter

    That reminds me that I should probably need to change my SD too soon

  287. mathieui

    Licaon_Kter, it is a brand but not a very reliable one :D, most of my cheapest SD cards are Adata and I do not trust them

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  289. Licaon_Kter

    mathieui: I mean A-Data SSDs

  290. Licaon_Kter

    For RPi > Use only Sandisk Extreme/Ultra or Samsung EVO plus See those tests by someone

  291. mathieui

    yeah but I have not even seen an A-Data SSD yet

  292. Licaon_Kter

    They're the bestbuys of black fridays :(

  293. Kris

    not sure, but the only SSD I ever had to replace was indeed an Adata. Oh and a Lexar that didn't work properly in the first place.

  294. mathieui

    (so far I have crucial, intel, kingston, sandisk and PNY here, no failure so far after years)

  295. Licaon_Kter

    Watchout for Kingston...they have both good and bad series Eg. See the V300 scandal from years ago

  296. Kris

    oh, what happend there?

  297. mathieui

    Yes, I stopped buying them anyway, but for €20 drives sustaining non-intensive usage, the drives are enough

  298. Licaon_Kter

    Sent reviewers units, great scores In stores ship shitty memory chips

  299. mathieui

    nowadays I’m optimizing for reliability rather than cost so I have shifted the prices a bit

  300. Licaon_Kter


  301. Kris

    ah, actually switching chips after some months of sale seems to be more and more common with cheap SSDs. never trust reviews for those 😉

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  304. Kris

    seems to be partially a supply chain issue and not malice

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  306. ff255

    Thanks.. i'm planning to buy ssd for data, but until that it's working on sdcard. Hope it'll live half-year/year with little load (2 users now) and armbian-ramlog

  307. mathieui

    2 users should be fine

  308. Licaon_Kter

    Their HyperX line was ok, but after that experience the damage lasted. Can't recommend them anymore, nor A-Data (multiple series with failing units in non-server context)

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  312. Kris

    I guess buying samsung makes sense since AFAIK they have their own production and thus do have less quality variance.

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  314. Kris

    but on the other hand: backup, backup, backup 😉

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  392. argon3771

    Licaon_Kter: OK so the pi3 is way more than enough for what I need. Great.

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  399. argon3771

    I switched over my one pi to boot and run of a USB flash stick, I'll probably do it with this one too to get away from the SD card issue

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  409. Arne

    actually why not using cheap used notebook mainboards instead of raspberry pi? :)

  410. Licaon_Kter

    Arne: lower power, less space, arm :)

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  413. Arne

    Licaon_Kter: some laptop mainboards doesnt use much more power, and whats the advantage of arm?

  414. Licaon_Kter


  415. Arne

    I can even set a normal PC to just consume 20 W

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  417. Licaon_Kter

    Arne: ain't that like 5x more than a FULLy used arm sbc? And it will sit idle mostly...

  418. Arne

    pi4 uses 15 Watt or not?

  419. Arne


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  424. Link Mauve

    My (non-raspberry) SBC consumes at most 2.5W, as that’s what the power supply is rated for, and most of the time while it’s idle it consumes a lot less than that.

  425. Link Mauve

    The one time I measured it it was a bit lower than 1W.

  426. Link Mauve

    For comparison, my Thinkpad x280 consumes 2.7W on idle with the backlight set at minimum.

  427. Link Mauve

    It can use up to 30W under full load, but it’s also much faster. :)

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  430. Arne

    Depends on the SBC for sure. pi 4 uses 3A*5V

  431. Arne

    What SBC do you use Link Mauve ?

  432. Link Mauve

    Arne, this one: https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/A20-OLinuXino-LIME2/open-source-hardware

  433. Link Mauve

    Been using it as my main server since 2014, and pretty happy with it. :)

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  436. Arne

    nice :)

  437. Arne

    and open Hardware? :)

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  442. Link Mauve

    Yup. ^^

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  452. mjk

    > pi 4 uses 3A*5V Is this the recommendation for the PSU (which would include powering the peripherials) or what the board only consumes?

  453. mjk

    Arne: > pi 4 uses 3A*5V Is this the recommendation for the PSU (which would include powering the peripherials) or what the board only consumes?

  454. mathieui

    this is what the stock PSU provide, but I wouldn’t expect it to power peripherals

  455. mathieui

    (because you can always go wayy beyond the power envelope with peripherals)

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  462. mjk

    True. But pi3's default PSU was, like, 2.3 or 2.5 amps (the point is: not much less than pi4's), and, if I'm not mistaken, most of that was allocated for the peripherials. So the SoC's consumption should still be pretty low, be it pi3 or 4

  463. mathieui

    well, the CPU in pi4 is much beefier than pi3, so I would expect consumption to increase

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  465. Kris

    the PI4 is definity not the most power efficient arm SBC (22nm AFAIK), but the 15W is really worst case scenario

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  467. Kris

    most the time it will near idle and use much less

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  470. mathieui

    and then you have to add the cooling fan to the power envelope :D

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  479. mjk

    At least there _is_ an official fan now!

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  487. argon3771

    The main reason I'm using a Pi is because I have a few just laying around.

  488. argon3771

    And I'm looking for some interesting things to do with them.

  489. 404.city

    >Link Mauve: >> I could have said the opposite, in my experience Prosody uses much lower amounts of memory on a small and medium-sized server. :) Most of the problems are created not by real users, but by spammers. XMPP is not resource intensive.

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  492. Link Mauve

    For a family server, spammers are irrelevant, they won’t be able to create an account on an invite-only server.

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  495. 404.city

    Link Mauve, 1 GB of memory is enough for a home server. Can be run on smaller configurations as well. My record is 250 active users on 128 RAM along with the system) Prosody & Ejabberd / x86 32-bit. Debian 8 or 9

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  498. Link Mauve


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  501. 404.city

    Much depends on how you set it up. What version of the system and software to use. Rumor has it that some managed to run Ejabberd + OS on 64 megabytes (old software version)

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  552. argon3771

    I'll run it and see how it goes. I can't see having any more than 10 users. Maybe 15 at the absolute most if I get some friends to switch to it too. I have other options but, I figured the pi would be easiest. I could just spend the $5 a month for a small vps, less of a risk than running it on my own home network but, what fun would that be.

  553. Licaon_Kter

    argon3771: which Pi?

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  556. ernst.on.tour

    Maybe this will give some points https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption

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  586. argon3771


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  589. Arne

    thanks for this list ernst.on.tour

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  598. ernst.on.tour

    I serve a Pi3b+ for ~160 accounts, 40 active with 10-15 heavy active, no problem. Sometimes (after reboot when all sessions dropped and build up again) there are timeouts because sharedusergroups/bookmarkgroups need to build up for every of this 160 users at the same time. Therefor reboot is done at night.

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  600. argon3771

    That's great. that's way more than I need then. Does that also include more than messaging? The availability of voice calling for example or is your server strictly text/http uploads?

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  602. Kris

    other than a lightweight STUN server to improve connections, voice calling in p2p in the current implementations and thus doesn't involve the server

  603. Kris


  604. Kris

    a TURN server might be too taxing for a Rasberry, but STUN should be no issue what so ever

  605. Licaon_Kter

    Kris: it's about 60% of one core for video via TURN on 3+

  606. Kris

    ah, thats less than I expected

  607. Licaon_Kter

    Also, it's used most of the time, have one user on a Wi-Fi and the STUN is not enough

  608. Kris

    you mean a publuc wifi?

  609. Kris


  610. Kris


  611. Licaon_Kter

    Kris: no, normal homes

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  614. Kris

    really? didn't have that problem so far

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  621. argon3771

    Ah that's right. Forgot that its p2p. Still learning stuff.

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  671. Holger

    I would think Wi-Fi totally depends on how the NAT of the Wi-Fi/WAN router works.

  672. Holger

    On mobile networks, you almost always need TURN relaying.

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