XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-01

> archerships wrote: > handling cryptocurrency payments? https://webmonetization.org/ web standard. Perhaps that'd be a good starting point.

there's a reason it says "web" in front of it

also, it's kind of a trojan horse for ripple adoption

a literal scam, where the founders made off with the vast majority of tokens and claim to have "lost" the initial history of their "chain", where you would see who got the premine

wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole

Licaon_Kter, allie: the idea would be that you can handle payments for various actions. all of registration, creating MUC rooms, sending to contacts, etc.

maybe some or all of those, maybe other actions

that's how i understood it, or what i personally would imagine it doing

It's an API. A proposed w3c standard that's open source and open for critique. Is there no way to use that if it were to be accepted? What would be better? I haven't heard of anything else that's a standard.

it's created almost entire by a ripple-cofounder from his illicit stash of XRP

hence the grant for the web program with like 100 million dollars of ripple as the only reward

w3c has been compromised in this case

and again, it's a web standard, not an internet standard

> A JavaScript browser API that allows the creation of a payment stream from the user agent to the website

that doesn't help you with in-band xmpp

Okay.

Anyway, it would be interesting and useful to have something right there for people to exchange currency.

What about MFA? Like OTP?

Hi there, I heard the admin of 404.city is active/lurking here. I want to point out that the World News MUC is a home of fascists and alike. The admins are aware of this and are acticly moderating the room. They banned me, for confronting their values, rather then the facists. I request that the admin of 404.city deletes the room or give me (or an individual that you trust) admin rights for the room and permanently ban the admin responsible and the fash users This room is the first room that appears if you search for news with search.jabber.network (don't remember if that's the correct url)

It's also possible they don't care to discriminate on legal types of speech

(thankfully) not every platform cares to play speech police

before we get into that: I am not inclined to censor the list on s.j.n, because frankly that’s not a job I want to do and I’d rather shut the listing down than doing that.

if you want something removed, go through the authorities

I don’t have enough time and moral superiority on my hand to figure out what is "right" or "good" to have on there and what is not. While there may be clear-cut cases, some are blurry and I prefer to not get on the slippery slope.

Unfortunately sometimes people are fine letting their services be used for abhorrent things. There's not anything you can do about it, though, other than make your case to them, and if they disagree you find somewhere else more in line with your values 😕

(unless it's a legal matter, in which case like jonas’ says, you go to the authorities)

to be fair, searching for a news channel on an instant messaging platform… can only bring sadness anyway.

I've heard you need to go to telegram to find the truth…

😁

I don't have public registration open on my server mostly because I don't have any time to moderate people, and I don't want people using my stuff for a lot of things I consider bad. Same with my fedi instance, where unfortunately I still have to someone moderate some things or else it shows up on my server's landing page 😕 It'd be great if people could just like, not be assholes, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.

I think unfortunately the real problem is that people’s defintion of good is diverging massively

yep I think jonas’ put it better than I did, to be clear I wasn't saying anything about that channel in particular, I don't know anything about it, just that I find it perfectly reasonable (and, personally, better) to just not make those type of judgement calls if it's legal (it's important to keep in mind "legal" also varies widely by locale)

and legal doesn't mean correct/good/moral/acceptable, it just means legal

yep absolutely

I'd say correct/good/moral/acceptable probably varies more wildly and doesn't even depend on locale :)

probably so

which is pretty sad too 🙁

oh well, though... it is what it is

Just looked there what this is about.. Jup.. Better not be responsible for a public channel 😃 like the worst YouTube comments. But I suppose it is nothing you can call the police for in western country's

Otherwise you would have to prosecute a quarter of the US inhabitants anyways 😄 and a certain ex president

people can certainly take a hands-off approach to moderation. but if people allow hateful things, they're only going to get hateful participants. so it's still a choice.

Everybody that wants to talk on other terms will leave until only one kind stays, that's right.

yup 🙁

> before we get into that: I am not inclined to censor the list on s.j.n, because frankly that’s not a job I want to do and I’d rather shut the listing down than doing that. You could use allow lists. Only rooms hosted on proper moderated server will appear. Then it's not your job, but the one of the server admins. >if you want something removed, go through the authorities I don't think anyone is in favour of me choosing that path.

> I don’t have enough time and moral superiority on my hand to figure out what is "right" or "good" to have on there and what is not. While there may be clear-cut cases, some are blurry and I prefer to not get on the slippery slope. We speak about facists and alike. What's difficult on taking side against facism?

"What's difficult on taking side against X?" <- also a key speaking point of facism

> I think unfortunately the real problem is that people’s defintion of good is diverging massively No, the real problem is abusive behaviour, structural violence and privilidged people that feel it's important to not be in solidary with the victims.

moparisthebest, I don't think that's a really fair comparison. What X is or isn't certainly changes the discussion.

sure, but "trying to suppress speech that disagrees with me" is a key on all bad ends of the political spectrum

> "! difficult on taking side against X?" <- also a key speaking point of facism organizing towards genocide and organising towards solidarity is equal to you? I don't understand why you make this comparison.

no one said anything about genocide

kikuchiyo: sure thing, but I also want to deplatform facists.

I'm just saying for every one of you that wants to suppress someone else's speech, there is another person that wants to suppress your speech

> no one said anything about genocide That's how the conversation started. Facists, you remeber?

moparisthebest, it's not suppressing, it's refusing to give them a platform. there's a difference.

so service operators are in some never ending struggle of suppressing everyone's speech, *or*, they can choose to suppress no one's speech

moparisthebest, server operators decide what they want their systems used for or not used for

right

moparisthebest: do you run a server?

a few of various types sure

Can I use them?

my policy is roughly "don't be an asshole or do anything illegal, otherwise anything goes" https://moparisthe.best/about

moparisthebest, if you're stopping people from using a server for spam, botnets, etc., you're "suppressing" those people's "speech" too. but, like I said earlier, if operators allow hateful content and people, eventually that's all they'll have because everyone else will leave

I find https://blog.nearlyfreespeech.net/2021/01/19/free-speech-in-2021/ to be a pretty good take on the issue

> my policy is roughly "don't be an asshole or do anything illegal, otherwise anything goes" https://moparisthe.best/about But this is against free speeacch. I don't understand why you are in favour of proper moderation at your own server, but suggest on other servers fascists should remain welcome. I don't get it (btw, thank you for offering even so I just asked to make this point)

> but suggest on other servers fascists should remain welcome yea I'm not suggesting that

Oh. i might miss understood you. Sry

just that what you find "fascist" or "bad" or "hateful" or whatever, is not necessarily what the server operator will find the same way

yeah, all you can do is make your case to them. if they don't agree, and that's a deal breaker for you, you move on to somewhere else.

And request other server operators to block the server in question if they go to far with allowing facists to hang out at their platform.

purplebeetroot, I mean, you can... but I doubt anyone will do it

xmpp isn't like the fediverse

For the free speech warriors here, the following article is a great read and critique of your ideology. Quote from an essay called >This Is Not a Dialogue >Not Just Free Speech, but Freedom Itself "...They intend to force their agenda on you. That’s what all the guns are for, what the police and drones and surveillance cameras are for, what the FBI and CIA and NSA are for, what all those laws and courts and executive orders are for. It’s what their church is for, what those racist memes are for, what online harassment and bullying are for. It’s what gay bashings and church burnings are for. This is not a dialogue. How could you be so naïve? A dialogue—from which some of the participants can be deported at any time? A dialogue—in which one side keeps shooting and incarcerating the other side? A dialogue—in which a few people own all the networks and radio stations and printing presses, while the rest have to make do with markers and cardboard signs? A dialogue, really?" There is no free speech in first place, no need to pretend it is. Full essay here: https://crimethinc.com/2017/01/26/this-is-not-a-dialogue-not-just-free-speech-but-freedom-itself

and free speech means they have a right to say that

and I have a right to disagree with it

and say so :D one big happy family

What if you're deported and imprisoned?

What is if you're killed by a racist cop?

I thought this was exactly the problem with facebook+twitter algorithms ? that extreme people get isolated from normal people and then only exposed to other extreme people, so they all get more extreme ?

moparisthebest, it is, everyone stays in their echo chamber

isn't isolating entire groups on fediverse/xmpp the same thing ? :/

like banning an entire server including innocents because 1 or 2 bad apples join seems really really bad

moparisthebest, I think the type of network matters there. since federating in xmpp only allows people on one server to communicate with people on another, it's not the same as fedi where instances crawl/learn about/cache content from other servers so that it gets hosted somewhat by your own server

so refusing to federate with an xmpp server because it might have bad people participate on it (which may not even be people on that server, but accessing a MUC there from other servers) doesn't really accomplish anything

> I thought this was exactly the problem with facebook+twitter algorithms ? that extreme people get isolated from normal people and then only exposed to other extreme people, so they all get more extreme ? No. The issue was that hattred and conspiracy theories turned out to be great to build a business model on top. Remember how youtube teached it's algorytm to spread conspiracy theories?

makes sense, because I'm on a basically single-person instance I've never used the "local timeline" once so I'm not really aware of those issues

purplebeetroot, are you saying facebook/twitter/youtube specifically wrote their algorithm to promote hate? eh I mean I hate them too but I can't go that far

more like someone clicks a hateful video then it naively goes HEY I SEE YOU ENJOYED THAT VIDEO HOW ABOUT THESE OTHERS LIKE IT

moparisthebest, depending on how you have all of that configured, it can possibly show Bad (tm) stuff on the timeline at your domain, so it ends up getting indexed by search engines and associated with your domain

kind of like how you buy a vacuum cleaner on amazon then it suggests you to buy other vacuum cleaners

purplebeetroot, the algorithms want to keep you engaged, so they show you things you already agree with, making your view of the world and other people skewed. it happens for all ideologies.

yes, this is my understanding of it too ^

> so refusing to federate with an xmpp server. doesn't really accomplish anything I'm not suggesting to make this in general, I'm suggesting if the admin is fine with facists using their plattform. What it accomplish is taking part in deplatforming facists.

well, maybe, they can just find another server, but keep in mind it also unfairly deplatforms normal people who also happen to have an account there

purplebeetroot, that's not really how that works

I mean it's easy to stop federating with welovenazis.com but a general open-to-the-public server isn't so clear cut

purplebeetroot: not your personal army, not your censorship bureau, not impressed by your concern trolling. People like you make the internet and life worse

> purplebeetroot, the algorithms want to keep you engaged, Youtube analysed which user group is the most addicted to youtube, who clicks the most, the usergroup that gives them the highest income. Their analysis found out it where (back in the days) those that where very much into conspiracy theories. They choose to show *everyone* the videos in the recommendations that those conspiracy believers were watching.

> purplebeetroot, that's not really how that works Will you give an argument to that?

> purplebeetroot: not your personal army, not your censorship bureau, not impressed by your concern trolling. People like you make the internet and life worse You fear nazis loosing another platform they can feel safe?

purplebeetroot, I've never had random conspiracy videos show up on YouTube, only videos similar to the other videos I've watched (science stuff, funny things, video game videos, etc.)

purplebeetroot, and refusing to federate with an xmpp server doesn't deplatform anyone. it just makes that server unreachable from whichever xmpp servers aren't federating with it. the server still operates, the people talking about bad stuff still talk about bad stuff.

Lucky you! You wish me to find a link to a text by an ex-youtube worker!

and people who don't want to talk about bad stuff suddenly find themselves only able to talk to people who do want to talk about bad stuff

purplebeetroot, I honestly don't care. The only thing I can do about any of it is just not use those platforms I disagree with.

When there's a business/person/website/service I don't agree with, I don't use it and try to discourage others I know from using it. But people are free to make up their own minds.

I couldn't agree with this more ^

I haven't bought Chick-fil-a in years because of their anti-LGBTQ activity. I still have friends who patronize them. Hell, I still have LGBTQ friends that do for some stupid reason. But everyone has all the same information, they just come to different conclusions and make their own choices. Those choices may later factor into my relationship with them, but that's a different matter.

So we don't organize against facism, we just stick to individualism and are ok with facists using our network?

you do understand a real facist wants you off their network right ?

> you do understand a real facist wants you off their network right ? They kicked me out.

purplebeetroot, >> before we get into that: I am not inclined to censor the list on s.j.n, because frankly that’s not a job I want to do and I’d rather shut the listing down than doing that. > You could use allow lists. Only rooms hosted on proper moderated server will appear. Then it's not your job, but the one of the server admins. Two problems: One: Who decides what "proper moderated" means exactly? Two: I have to maintain another allowlist (I already have one for the avatars, and it is taking more time than I’d like already). >> I don’t have enough time and moral superiority on my hand to figure out what is "right" or "good" to have on there and what is not. While there may be clear-cut cases, some are blurry and I prefer to not get on the slippery slope. > We speak about facists and alike. What's difficult on taking side against facism? Facists are easy. What about people who like to pretend they’re facists because it turns them on? Who am I to judge where the line is? I am no judge, I am no police officer, I am not trained in making these calls. I think society got way too used to big companies and whatnot pre-filtering the world for them. We need to get out of that and instead learn to cope with our differences. If a (subset of the) society agrees on a specific set of rules, they can of course enforce those rules in their space. But that set of rules needs to be agreed on in a sensible way and people who know what they’re doing (= not me) need to make the calls in edge cases. I don’t even want to step close to being in a judge role. >> I think unfortunately the real problem is that people’s defintion of good is diverging massively > No, the real problem is abusive behaviour, structural violence and privilidged people that feel it's important to not be in solidary with the victims. And I think that there are people who genuinely believe a subset of these traits to be ok. Which is what I meant. Not to say that’s a thing I like about the world, but I think that’s part of the world nontheless.

I hope this wasn’t cut out by any length limits

jonas’, I don't think anything got cut off

(I think Conversations has a hidden length limit)

yea, I put it there because without it, it corrupts the database and becomes unuseable :(

(like Conversations force closes until you wipe everything and start over, then MAM breaks it again, this was a fun debugging day)

yikes

but yes, everyone wants big companies to censor everything they don't like

until they inevitably censor something they do like

purplebeetroot, "our network" ... the strength, and weakness, of federation is that it's the network of anyone who participates in the federation. there's no single authority, no central point of control. it's just servers talking to servers to relay messages between their users. do I want Nazis using xmpp to plan Nazi things? No, not really. But I can't stop them from using it, all I can do is make sure the services that *I* run aren't used by them.

there is no perfect censor, so the best thing to do is censor nothing, imho (except, again, illegal things)

or rather, aren't used for those purposes

moparisthebest, for my notes, what is the length limit in C in number of bytes/codepoints?

jonas’, had to look it up, so it's *probably* rom specific, I didn't put in a length limit, but rather, avoided it crashing when the invisible length limit was hit https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations/pull/2270

I had converted my cronjobs to send me XMPP messages instead of email me, and one of these was *very* long, and I woke up to "Conversations has forced closed" :D

“I don't have enough time and moral superiority on my hand to figure out what is "right" or "good"”. it's not about moral superiority, it's about creating a place you're happy to live in (as you decide how to run your service, personally I'd invite people to help me do that and fix goals together)

> moparisthebest> there is no perfect censor, so the best thing to do is censor nothing, imho (except, again, illegal things) yeah.. no :x

moparisthebest: who decides the laws, what's legal and illegal. Something something legitimacy

right, I mean I don't agree with all laws either, and like everyone, would probably end up enforcing them imperfectly

but a public server operator probably has to at least try to comply with laws in their jurisdiction

moparisthebest: > yea, I put it there because without it, it corrupts the database and becomes unuseable :( Not that I know, the bubble doesn't show the content, you get a `...` at the end, but you can copy the text in full and copy it in some text editor

purplebeetroot: nazis don't come in here to concern troll about people they don't like existing. That makes them at least one step better than you

I think purplebeetroot is advertising something like this > Mastodon’s official site will only list instances that follow the Mastodon Server Covenant. The covenant mandates “active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia” — which pretty much nixes any contact with Gab. https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentralized-social-network-gab-migration-fediverse-app-blocking

I have all the gab and gab-like instances blocked by my pleroma instance

yellowchopper, ... I think one can have issues with what purplebeetroot advocates without somehow saying what they advocate is worse than Nazis that advocate genocide because the Nazis at least aren't in this room 😕

I haven't blocked anyone on my pleroma instance, I've had it up for 7 months, and have yet to see the fabled fediverse nazi

moparisthebest, I've had posts pop up from time to time. Also porn, something I have no problem with, but I don't want advertised on the timeline of my instance, especially not the public timeline.

if I had to deduce what the world consisted of from my fediverse feed I'd assume it was 70% programmers, 29% furries, and 1% people who complain about fediverse nazis

deplatforming on lower levels (e.g. protocol) always bears the risk of fracturing the federation.

I don't think I know how to get to my instance timeline...

moparisthebest, those darn furries!

ah, strange dropdown -> known network, interesting!

moparisthebest, yeah, that. I think in pleroma you can limit it to only logged-in users at least. but it still means as soon as you login, if your instance knows about undesirable things, they'll possibly show up there.

> Facists are easy. What about people who like to pretend they’re facists because it turns them on? Facists often disguise themself as trolls as a strategy to receive more empathy from others. "Aaah, it was only a joke" kind of thing, while being very aware how they are shifting the overtone window. Make some research and you'll find out that they educate themself on such matter. But sure there will be still the ones that do this for other reasons. But why care about them more then their victims? >Who am I to judge where the line is? And yet you make a very clear judgment, to just go with the status quo. >I am not trained in making these calls. That is ok. I'm not requesting you to make these calls. Listening to those that you believe have more experience in such matter is only an advice I can give. > I think society got way too used to big companies and whatnot pre-filtering the world for them. Actually big companies have been pushing hatred content a lot it just started to change recently. I don't see a compelling argument for wanting hatred on 'our' platforms. >We need to get out of that and instead learn to cope with our differences. Well that be great. But how to protect vulnerable people until we reach that point? > I don’t even want to step close to being in a judge role. Yet you take a very clear position on how to react to a violent status quo. > I hope this wasn’t cut out by any length limits Nah, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

yea it's almost all programmers lol

maybe I'm a boring person

moparisthebest, mine mostly is after blocking other problematic instances. also blocking spambot instances.

moparisthebest, but my personal timeline is also like 98% programmers, probably a whole bunch of whom are furries lol

> I'm not requesting you to make these calls. Listening to those that you believe have more experience in such matter is only an advice I can give. again, you realize for every one of you there's a nazi telling him the same thing in the other ear ?

allie: these types are inexhaustible. If you will continue to hear them out, they will continue pushing, and you will continue compromising until you've given in to every demand. Conspiring to silence one's political opposition in this way is unacceptable, worse than having a naughty room where they say mean things

Because, as much as purple will insist they're literally building death camps, in all likelihood all they're doing is posting offensive memes

yellowchopper, I don't really agree with that assessment

I understand what purplebeetroot is saying, and I even agree that what they're describing is a problem. It's the approach in dealing with it that I disagree with.

>But I can't stop them from using it, all I can do is make sure the services that *I* run aren't used by them. It is not that this is the only option we have, it is that this is the only option you see. Guess how Gab was largly cut off from federation? People organized to raise awarness what they are about, what the danger is when brining more visability to platforms as such and asked everyone to isolate Gab. It worked pretty successful.

(There are more options. Just an example)

purplebeetroot, and again, the fediverse is different from xmpp

> again, you realize for every one of you there's a nazi telling him the same thing in the other ear ? Simple: don't trust a nazi.

purplebeetroot, right, and mr. nazi says it's simple, don't trust you

oh and btw, he doesn't say "hi I'm a nazi" first

> I understand what purplebeetroot is saying, and I even agree that what they're describing is a problem. It's the approach in dealing with it that I disagree with. I agree that there can be many solutions tryn to solve the same issue.

he's trying to suppress your speech, your trying to suppress his speech, a perfectly sane thing for an administrator to say is "you two work it out, ignore each other, whatever"

I think what we're missing here is the ideology of the person telling you not to trust the nazi. And whether such person is active in discussions of similar character to the nazi discussions, but aimed at different groups

that's actually the best thing about the internet, how easy it is to ignore people

you pick who you want to interact with

being able to ignore people is definitely a privilege, though

not everyone can do that

Because that tends to be the case in these "censor my enemies" requests. They are as reprehensible as one another

> Because, as much as purple will insist they're literally building death camps, in all likelihood all they're doing is posting offensive memes wtf. Who is this person? I hope it's not a mutual of anyone here.

yellowchopper, no they aren't

I mean, I can't think of anyone I've had to, uh, "technologically ignore"

I've certainly just mentally ignored a ton of people though

so I was talking to this one guy in the jmp chat a year ago or so

I operate an xmpp server. I think that's what this room is for, based on the name. Not the approval of the good censor

seemed an okay person, talking about technical stuff... everything was fine, although his avatar was the Gadsden flag, so that should've been clue enough

Oh dear, was he some sort of free speech extremist?

so anyway, somehow he doesn't realize from my name and avatar that I'm a woman until it gets brought up through some other conversation

at that point, I learned that LGBTQ people are scum, feminism will be the death of the Western world, the Jews control everything, women are just too stupid to understand Technical Things, etc.

so that was fun

only person I've had to block so far

I mean I like the Gadsden flag but disagree with everything he said so :)

like, sane, good people can disagree on things, and still get along, this is what I feel is too often missed

obviously everyone has certain lines but, yea

sane, good people are the operative words, but it's still a personal decision

and I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out problems to muc admins, server operators, etc. I want to know if bad things are happening on my server. But if the people in charge don't wanna do anything, all you can reasonably do is make a note of it so you can tell others if the situation arises, and use different services.

I wish you all to remember how this conversation started: I complained about 404.city running at least one MUC that's open to facists. I've got harrased by them and asked to better kill myself. I've been called all sort of slurs and misogyny shit. I requested support in this room. What actually happens is most of you defending the facists. What do I need to different next time, if I wish to recieve support rather then reading explanations how important it is, to not organise against facism?

Yes, with us or against us. I choose against you, and will continue to do so without hesitation until you offer something other than "with us or against us"

maybe I'm jaded, but nowadays when someone says "fascist" I find it more often refers to someone who said something benign they disagreed with instead of a literal nazi

If you care more about facists being welcomed to join, then me being around, I believe xmpp space to be in for me.

seen too many > a: javascript is a bad language > b: wtf a ??? only a fascist would say such a thing!!!!!

> maybe I'm jaded, but nowadays when someone says "fascist" I find it more often refers to someone who said something benign they disagreed with instead of a literal nazi Then fuxking ask rather then making the assumption facists don't exist.

purplebeetroot, you said the server operator was known to frequent this room and you were making a case to them to do something about it. you asked for them to either ban the room or make you an admin of the muc so you could ban the people in question.

> purplebeetroot, you said the server operator was known to frequent this room I was told so. idk if that's true.

purplebeetroot, and the discussion turned into how to deal with problems on xmpp servers, which was mostly fallen back to convince the server operator or cut your losses. at which point you began advocating for everyone refusing to federate with servers based on what users do in a muc.

Does Platform Migration Compromise Content Moderation? https://arxiv.org/abs/2010.10397

> nuanced portrait of the consequences of community-level moderation

kikuchiyo, it's certainly a complex problem

as a large service admin though, you have 2 suboptimal choices: 1. spend all your day analyzing who you should ban and who you shouldn't, trying to make everyone happy (this is impossible)

what's complex about banning people that literally request the suicide of me? What's difficult about banning people that say women should remain in the kitchen...and more. Where's the nuance I'm missing that leads to a debate that is defending the position of the abuser?

or 2. anything goes except illegal stuff

> What's difficult about banning people that say women should remain in the kitchen...and more.

moparisthebest, or just respond to reports when notified about problematic behavior

this is a good example actually, this is a very dumb, stupid, (insert plenty of other adjectives) thing to say

moparisthebest, we already do it with spammers and such

I've said equally dumb things though

probably like "javascript developers get the chair" or whatever, as an offhanded comment, it's simply not nice

is it better to ban them or just talk to them about it? worst case ignore them ?

allie, right, but see above comments about becoming the morality police

purplebeetroot, should that behavior be allowed? probably not. but again, it's up to the server admin. so that's the person you have to convince.

moparisthebest, I have no problem being the morality police of my own kingdom

moparisthebest, if people don't like it, they can move elsewhere

> this is a good example actually, this is a very dumb, stupid, (insert plenty of other adjectives) thing to say No it is not. It has nothing to do about intellect. Please stop with ableism, and descibe it by what it actually is. It is !!!!misogynist!!!!!!

but most people I know, and who would use my instance, are people that are ideologically similar to me, so they're not going to disagree with me lol

purplebeetroot, another adjective, fine

> purplebeetroot, another adjective, fine Your adjectives were not fine.

so people that disagree with you, what do you intend to do with them exactly purplebeetroot ? if you don't want them to communicate with any good people like you ever, or be able to communicate with anyone else, what's the next step? you just kill them or ?

it's likely better to try and educate them, or even if they aren't open to it, they can watch how it should work in a civilized society

after all, people change

> so people that disagree with you, what do you intend to do with them exactly purplebeetroot ? if you don't want them to communicate with any good people like you ever, or be able to communicate with anyone else, what's the next step? you just kill them or ? It's not about disagreement. I disagree with you most of the time, but I don't advocate to deplatform you. There's a difference between literally facists and you, but I guess that part is obvious to you :-p

purplebeetroot, if I was in your position, I would report the person(s), block them, and move on to other things

^

allie: I did. Admin showed up, basicly said they are ok with facists and blocked me.

(MUC admin)

purplebeetroot, then there's your answer. you can then notify the server operator to make them aware of the situation, and then move on.

> purplebeetroot, then there's your answer. you can then notify the server operator to make them aware of the situation, and then move on. I did, within this room. Then many people started to reply, how and why I'm not supposed to do this.

so back in my mis-spent youth I ran a large forum, we wrote programs to cheat on a MMO, and made private servers for that MMO

purplebeetroot, you got other opinions about it. many of which you disagree with (and even I disagree with).

I didn't know anything, it just suddenly got popular and here I am moderating a forum with a couple hundred thousand users

moparisthebest, all based on cheating lol

someone made a bot named Aryan and it was hosted on an even worse website domain.... I won't even mention that domain

they were dumb kids, who thought they were funny

no one cared, we wanted to cheat on the game

> they were dumb kids, who thought they were funny

moparisthebest, I would imagine there were people that cared, they just didn't say anything

fast forward 16 years, most of us still hang out in the same IRC channel, no one is a nazi, everyone involved with that bot is a perfectly normal functioning member of society that is guilty of being a really dumb kid

ups sorry. Last message was my pocket

I don't know what would have happened had I banned them right off

moparisthebest, I would've been like "um, wtf?"

but most of us say we probably wouldn't be programmers for a living had we not got started on the forum

moparisthebest, get them to explain why they did it, try to teach them why it was wrong, etc.

yea, I mean they all long since understand that and regret it

most were like 14-19 years old

moparisthebest, now what if somebody that was part of that forum, who also could've been a programmer, was Jewish and felt like everyone was making fun of the holocaust and the things the Nazis did, so they left that forum, and missed out on the opportunities the rest of you had by working together. they just silently left because, well... obviously nobody thinks they're valuable members

> I don't know what would have happened had I banned them right off Maybe it would have been part in building a space that's also welcoming for non-white-cis-dudes. Gamer gate. Remember that thing that showed how discusting toxic large part of the gamer culture is?

allie, right, very possible, and sad, I mean we did have jewish people there, but in reality almost no one talked about anything like that, no race, gender, nothing, we were just there for the cheats

moparisthebest, sure. I'm just saying that things that seem somewhat innocuous can actually have effects people don't realize if they're not part of certain groups

moparisthebest, hopefully that didn't happen at all, though. 🙂

if I could rewind 15 years and do it a bit differently I would, but no idea if it would turn out better or worse of course

my point being, people change, just because they say really terrible things doesn't mean they are a really terrible person

I don't like assuming they are

> allie, right, very possible, and sad, I mean we did have jewish people there, but in reality almost no one talked about anything like that, no race, gender, nothing, we were just there for the cheats And in the end you are predominantly white-cis-males. That's not because of your open culture, that is because you discourage people from joining that don't fit such a patriarchal structure. (Obviously I don't know the community you're speaking about, but it is true for most spaces where people argue 'we even never speak about discrimination'. Yes, race and gender is strongly linked to discrimination. White-cis-males are granted a lot of privilidges in this regards, so obviously there need to speak about it, is not necessary intuitive)

back then I honestly didn't know any races, being in the same IRC for 16 years you end up learning races/backgrounds/locations etc though

it's predominantly english speaking, of course the Scandinavian peoples who speak good english too :) but it's a good mix race-wise I think

we didn't have many females, but strangely, almost all of the females were moderators, like 0.01% of forum population, 70% of moderation team lol

maybe they were more mature ?

> my point being, people change, just because they say really terrible things doesn't mean they are a really terrible person > I don't like assuming they are My point is: What you say often leads to consequence that are behond mere speech. Speech can hurt people. Speech can make structural violance to be even more accepted then it is Speech can help abuser to silent and invisabalize the victims. Speech can be used to organize hate crime. Speech can be used to shift the overtone window. Speech can we weaponized with rethoric, that will makes it harder for you to spot abusive behaviour.

> we didn't have many females, but strangely, almost all of the females were moderators, like 0.01% of forum population, 70% of moderation team lol > maybe they were more mature ? Because in a patriarchal society the burden of care work is largly load upon women.

In some areas its nice to have BBQ with cow, in other areas cow is holy. There are a lot of person eating pork but also a lot of people that will dam it. Who will be the only right ? The one who is eating fish ? Do he have the right to judge over others ? Is he the super-correct-one ? If I want to have political discuss I will join the political muc, but stop to enter support-groups. People like you destroy the CCC, destroy the internet. There was no problem if someone was man/woman/somethingelse, important was output of brain, the code they offer. Now we have to be correct and have to write he/she/it Shit code, noone interest in you, well performed code, nobody interest in christ/jew/muslim/he/she/it/longhair/wheelchair/.... Saddly I'm not an english nativ and I'm not able to write what I'm thinking about persons like you.

ernst.on.tour, yeah that's not that only their code matters.

ernst.on.tour, errr, that's not true rather

ernst.on.tour, that's because men almost always assume that others online are men. so if someone doesn't point out that they're not whatever the expectation is, the expectation holds.

is that a problem when it comes to code ?

ernst.on.tour: we speak about if we should organize against facists or not. U suggest to better not, because it doen't matter to you and your personal experience as s very privilidged person?

moparisthebest, yes

why ?

We had such conv already. Try to remember.

allie: I don't think so Daniel could be a man or a girls-name, Andrea is german girl but italien man. Important is code-output, nothing else

man and woman code the same as far as I'm concerned, I can't imagine I'd care which one wrote this particular code

moparisthebest, because it isn't that nobody writing code has an identity, it's that they're all assumed to have a similar identity. as soon as it would come out that the person writing code ISN'T what the group assumed they were, then code reviews become more critical, their ideas are more easily dismissed or co-opted by others on the team, etc.

moparisthebest, so the person who isn't the default, but is submitting code, has to hide anything about themselves to ensure that nobody knows they aren't the default

ernst.on.tour, nope

+1

idk, imho it's better to just not share I guess

it's the same thing as straight people bitching about gay people "shoving homosexuality down their throats" by merely existing, acknowledging relationships, etc., the same damned thing straight people do all the time.

but anyway...

but if it does bring discrimination then that should be fixed too

that's way more off-topic than the initial discussion

moparisthebest, things are certainly better now than they used to be

> but if it does bring discrimination then that should be fixed too No, the discrimination existed prior to that.

moparisthebest, that thing about “22:41:31 moparisthebest> back then I honestly didn't know any races, being in the same IRC for 16 years you end up learning races/backgrounds/locations etc though” is something you can only say when you are part of the dominant group on each of these topics.

As a cis white mostly-heterosexual man, I also grew up not feeling any discrimination, I could say I “couldn’t see colours” for instance, until I had friends who mentioned how often they got controlled by the cops, how they didn’t get that job they were perfectly qualified for, how they are afraid of even speaking in a public chatroom like this one.

Link Mauve, yup 🙁

> but if it does bring discrimination then that should be fixed too Hey just hide that you are a women, and join this men club where we oscasional drop some misogyny content, but make sure you hide your identity at all cost, because otherwise we will aply all this misoguny towards you too. Feel invited to join!

Oh yeah. Sounds fun.

yea, I do know what you mean Link Mauve , I never really saw/noticed sexist stuff until I had daughters :( only had brothers growing up etc

moparisthebest, imagine them ending up in that one allegedly-problematic room, making friends with random people there, and then being told that women can’t code, women must stay in the kitchen, women should kill themselves, etc.

well I hope I will have raised them well enough that they can just fully ignore that, mentally mark those people as idiots and move on

That’s great. :)

But not everyone might be.

And remember it’s not one room, it’s society in almost its entirety which is giving these messages.

yellowchopper: > Yes, with us or against us. I choose against you, and will continue to do so without hesitation until you offer something other than "with us or against us" How about you aply your logic to yourself? See: people said I should kill myself, and a better place would be the kitchen and so on. Because they are against me, just for my mere existance, I'm against them. Why don't you notice the abvious?

When someone talks about a hacker, do you usually imagine a woman under the hood? Do they, your daughters?

I don't know why they wouldn't :P

they are still young, no internet yet, I've only recently started the oldest one programming

purplebeetroot: no. You're acting like an undisciplined child. Every server operator is not at your service in getting back at those who slighted you

Also, it appears the brigade has begun. Fun times ahead

> well I hope I will have raised them well enough that they can just fully ignore that, mentally mark those people as idiots and move on I hope so to. But I also hope that you will have raised them to stand in solidarity with those not having the strength. Looking away from violence that doesn't effect one is easy. But what about those, who are effected by? Just ignore or support? ✏

anyway, if there's a whole server that's nothing but nazis? I'd probably try to not federate with them. Is it just some users in a muc room? I'm not likely to change anything on my end, but I probably wouldn't ever go into that room

allie: idk, I haven't checked their other rooms. Thing is, it's not just a few bad apples it's MUC admins of a rather larger MUC + the users. So maybe admin of the server will do something about the room. We'll see.

purplebeetroot, maybe

purplebeetroot: I still don't agree with your moderation policy, but every time I have a discussion with you and/or allie I feel like I come away a slightly better more understanding person, so thanks both of you for that :)

oh hey, nice! glad I can help!

> moparisthebest> so service operators are in some never ending struggle of suppressing everyone's speech, *or*, they can choose to suppress no one's speech You know the thing about neutrality and the lie? as an operator you can choose not to suppress people's messages in which case you'll just allow systemic (among others) oppressions to continue there.

> allie> I mean, you can... but I doubt anyone will do it > xmpp isn't like the fediverse fwiw I already blacklist a few servers myself based on that

Do you care to say which ones and why?

let me find them again

hmm I don't have access to my conf RN. It was the Nazi that got kicked out of 36c3 iirc. They own a bunch of shitty domains

With XMPP on them

I wish we had trust lists in more things

Ah, the hitler.rocks guy.

this ^

where you can choose whether or not to accept the determinations others have made about who to block and why

allie: server buddies? Also https://ondergrond.org/@dumpsterqueer/105808048813813277 maybe

I pasted that in xmpp:chat@joinjabber.org?join earlier

Lol it's nice when the domain tells you everything you need to know ✏

oh that would be kinda cool, the relative reputation stuff...

I kinda liked the way it worked messing around with freenet

That server buddies system sounds bad

Like it favors big instances

moparisthebest, you're probably right. if your server is interacting with a lot of users on a single instance, that instance would have a higher reputation, and would be easier to get abuse through

Email has that, where Gmail and outlook are the only trustworthy domains, is that what we want?

It's a starting port, though.

like maybe the scores are weighted in such a way that individual posts are scored differently when it's from an instance with lots of users. I dunno how it'd work. But I think the concept is interesting.

I still kinda like trust lists better, though. More control.

I think instance level anything is bad

Should always be on a user level, because in a perfect world, everyone runs their own single user instance

Any instance level thing pushes towards status quo of giant silos

moparisthebest, I suppose it depends. but like I was talking about earlier, I don't want my instance hosting things that I myself find objectionable. if I had users that were trying to engage in such materials, I'd likely try to encourage them to go elsewhere, but I'd probably also block the instances they were interacting with if I felt there wasn't any value to be lost there