XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-02


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  35. thndrbvr What an afternoon. I opened Blabber.im up to ~250msgs. I don't even know where to begin responding. Lol
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  97. allie thndrbvr, don't lol just be like "Yup, mmhmm. So how's the weather?" lol
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  106. purplebeetroot > purplebeetroot: I still don't agree with your moderation policy, but every time I have a discussion with you and/or allie I feel like I come away a slightly better more understanding person, so thanks both of you for that :) I'm happy that we can have a conversation where we try to understand each other. :) So thank you for taking the time reading all those posts, even so most of my posts were in disagreement with yours.
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  267. kikuchiyo allie: > kikuchiyo, it's certainly a complex problem That's why I linked the study. > https://arxiv.org/abs/2010.10397 But it seems nobody has time to look into science. > what's complex about banning people that literally request the suicide of me? As you may have noticed, the complexity starts when the requested moderation is denied at a certain level so one needs to escalate the request to the next level. Deplatforming creates new platforms, which can only be deplatformed on a deeper level (think federation, software, protocols, hardware, hoster ...)
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  394. pep. > moparisthebest> That server buddies system sounds bad > Like it favors big instances Not sure why it has to be this way. Trust is relative, it's not the same for everyone.
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  402. Licaon_Kter moparisthebest: > so back in my mis-spent youth I ran a large forum, we wrote programs to cheat on a MMO, and made private servers for that MMO Doesn't everyone and your dog know about the "Rune forum" story already? :))
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  405. Licaon_Kter ernst.on.tour: > In some areas its nice to have BBQ with cow, in other areas cow is holy. > There are a lot of person eating pork but also a lot of people that will dam it. > Who will be the only right ? > The one who is eating fish ? What if you're allergic to fish ? :) :(
  406. purplebeetroot > allie: > That's why I linked the study. Right, I lost interest for the reason they advertised themselves as 'nuanced' but on my perspective failed on that. Don't get me wrong, it's interesting and they do important considerations such as trying to understand what deplatforming does behond a single entity. They say deplatforming works to: - decreasing their power in onboarding new people. - decreasing the size of a given community But that we need to take in account, that it may lead to further radicalisation. That's true I believe. But they miss an analysis (maybe I missed that, I didn't read it very carefully), the overall effects of supporting facists to organise in the open. They also failed to analyse how deplatforming in combination with infiltration does bring permanent damage to such a community. How seeding distrust between the members effects the efficiency of a given group to organise. How constant attacks can lead to shrinking faith. It also misses to an analysis that's not isolated from the overall network you could describe as alt-right. They are present in many platforms and big player platform have helped them to reach an extremely large audience. They have always guided the most actives of such audience to the more "VIP" channels, to deepen the radicalisation and as a means to organise with them. They don't need deplatforming to do so. It happens always. They also seem to not make an analysis how fascists do change their language depending the audience. But that gives no insights, despite the study suggests this as evidence, on their level of radicalisation. ...and much more to say. .
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  411. purplebeetroot > As you may have noticed, the complexity starts when the requested moderation is denied at a certain level so one needs to escalate the request to the next level. Deplatforming creates new platforms, which can only be deplatformed on a deeper level (think federation, software, protocols, hardware, hoster ...) Agree it is a complex topic and I believe many of you can learn from isolategab and the scientific studies it's going to create following the hack.
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  413. purplebeetroot What's the effect of normalising facists organising in the open?
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  425. yellowchopper You think you'd know how to spell fascist if it's going to be your favorite word
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  428. Licaon_Kter yellowchopper: maybe it's a word game, fas-cis-t ?
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  434. Alex Where are all these woke npcs coming from lately? Feels like there's an uptick in their population size on xmpp. Weren't they all going to migrate to mastodon or matrix?
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  436. pep. yellowchopper: Maybe we can drop classism for a sec (spelling) and focus on the topic at hand.
  437. pep. purplebeetroot: fwiw I'm waiting on an answer from the 404.city operator (when you get one?) and depending on that I'll block s2s at least on my own instance, and I'll advocate for that in places I'm involved.
  438. Alex Thank God your tactics are useless in this space
  439. Alex Go annoy people on clubhouse
  440. pep. God doesn't need to get involved don't worry
  441. Alex You're not even witty... Just boring
  442. pep. Oh you're the moderator of that room right? heh
  443. Alex I reiterate.. you're boring af
  444. pep. Sure
  445. Alex Glad you agree
  446. Alex Now go away
  447. pep. Would be nice for Conversations to gain a /ignore feature
  448. Alex You're telling me
  449. Alex I'd love to see that
  450. jonas’ purplebeetroot, moin! I don’t have much time, but IIRC you said yesterday that it is OK I don’t want to be in the judges role and that I can defer that to people who I consider knowledgebale. That’s exactly what I’m doing by saying that you should go through the authorities (to get something removed from s.j.n) mind also that I only jumped into the discussion because s.j.n was brought up by you in the first place, otherwise I would’ve completely stayed out of it. I’m only arguing from the perspective of the sjn operator, not anything else.
  451. Martin > Would be nice for Conversations to gain a /ignore feature You can, it's just cumbersome: Add chat@conference.example.com/opponent to your blocklist.
  452. purplebeetroot I request the ban of Alex in this room and everywhere you have the power to do. Alex is the an admin of the MUC that started this long debate. In the other room Alex makes fun of the debate.
  453. Martin pep.: ^
  454. Alex Looks like I'll be the first causality at this rate. So long and thanks for all the fish 👋
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  456. Alex Looks like I'll be the first casualty at this rate. So long and thanks for all the fish 👋
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  469. yellowchopper Alex: seems they're endemic
  470. yellowchopper purplebeetroot: is requesting bans all you do? Seems like the real solution is to ban you and enjoy peace and quiet
  471. 404.city pep.‎: This person purplebeetroot is an Internet troll who is engaged in provocations and wants to restrict the freedom of speech of other people.
  472. 404.city pep., I will simply ask you to publicly name your server.
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  475. jonas’ purplebeetroot, forgot to add: sorry if my original interjection derailed your request, that was not my intent. I was just anticipating a request towards me and wanted to make it clear right away, because that wouldn’t be the first instance of someone unilaterally requesting a third parties room to be delisted.
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  481. pepta.net Please, let admins do whatever they want to do with _their services_ and let them apply _their policies_ (ban, block s2s, ...) but _do not tell others what they have to do_ or expect justifications. Otherwise it is an endless debate. I just hope we can consider this off-topic for a "Service Operators" MUC and move to other matter.
  482. Alex Service discovery is always a central point of failure I suppose. Hope it doesn't come to that. Are we going to have preapproved code of conduct policies to be able to exist? Because that's where this ultimately leads.
  483. Martin I do not agree. I tell admins to delete spammers.
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  485. Martin If a server operator refuses to delete spammers I'll block that server.
  486. Alex That's not the issue
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  488. Alex The room discovery list is the point of control
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  490. purplebeetroot > purplebeetroot, moin! I don’t have much time, but IIRC you said yesterday that it is OK I don’t want to be in the judges role and that I can defer that to people who I consider knowledgebale. Sure thing. That is absolutly ok. (Unless you believe the legal system is the only system in mastering social issues and conflicts) >That’s exactly what I’m doing by saying that you should go through the authorities (to get something removed from s.j.n) This is not ok. I disagree with the authority part. As if a king or his judges are the best person to ask. (You don't live in a kingdom, but you also live in a nation where let's say scientists live...) Your inactivity is harming me. You have been notified about that. The content in question is against (i don't really care about that aspect, but since you brought it up) the german law (where you are located). If you request me, to go on a legal battle with you, it will leverage the harm your inactivity is causing. You are aware of the following: - 1. you act against the law - 2. you do this on purpose, because it's easier for you - 3. you are partly aware of the harm your inactivity is causing - 4. you have a policy on when to get active with blacklisting rules, but you exclude it, as you state yourself, to ban hate-groups unless judge goes after you. - 5. I'm not requesting you to be the moderator if you do not have the time or skills, I'm requesting that you onboard moderators that are cabable of doing so - 6. You have a personal Antony I can get in contact with? - 7. If you deny a process to solve the conflict outside court, the penalty if they find you guilty leverages - 8. I prefer group mediation, but again if I feel forced, I'm open to push as hard as it requires to create change. I do not limit myself to mere complaining to some authorities. - 9. I'm ok in story telling. I'm ok in research. Your behaviour can cause negative consequences for the overall xmpp community and give it branding of white-cis-males that are ok with misogyny 10. I'm in for conflict mediation. But do not try to push me, unless you can accept the consequence of your behaviour. 11. I like xmpp alot, and several individuals. But I am loyal to nothing but values.
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  492. Martin > Please, let admins do whatever they want to do with _their services_ and let them apply _their policies_ (ban, block s2s, ...) but _do not tell others what they have to do_ or expect justifications. Otherwise it is an endless debate. I just hope we can consider this off-topic for a "Service Operators" MUC and move to other matter. But I'll tell them what to do. 🙃
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  494. pepta.net Martin: yeah because it is supposed that everyone fights spam. The point is when the two parties (notifier and admin) disagree.
  495. purplebeetroot jonas’: Just so you know, I didn't read that part when I replied. > purplebeetroot, forgot to add: sorry if my original interjection derailed your request, that was not my intent. I was just anticipating a request towards me and wanted to make it clear right away, because that wouldn’t be the first instance of someone unilaterally requesting a third parties room to be delisted.
  496. yellowchopper Like I told you at the start, purple is the problem here, not the supposed NSDAP room. And here we go, purple is claiming victimhood for you not obeying her demands and extorting you with legal action! I believe I have been vindicated here, to those who may have thought i was too harsh
  497. pepta.net Martin: > If a server operator refuses to delete spammers I'll block that server. You don't insist to enforce your expectation by the other admin When he disagree. Instead you take action on your services. That's my point.
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  500. 404.city purplebeetroot, Are you ready to verify your identity? We can process your request if you provide evidence that you are not an Internet troll and are not engaged in persecution of a person on religious grounds or other contradictions.
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  503. pepta.net Martin: > If a server operator refuses to delete spammers I'll block that server. You don't insist to enforce your expectations by the other admin. Instead, when he disagree, you take action on your services. That's my point.
  504. 404.city purplebeetroot, I do not follow the chats, but currently I see that you are persecuting someone for religious reasons using 7 fake accounts.
  505. Martin 404.city: Are trolls marked on their passport or ID?
  506. Martin How do you determine? Norwegian citizenship?
  507. Menel 404.city: there is a religious spammer in your "news" room post frequence 2/Min and sadly its a big room and easily discoverable. And that can give xmpp in general a bad name
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  509. tom So, turns out my upload server is fine
  510. tom It's actually the indicators that are wrong
  511. Martin Menel: DarkJihad Jesus Pope?
  512. Menel Si
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  514. Martin I knew it. 😂
  515. tom The indicators are delayed, and do not operate probably ramping up to the actual speed on high bandwidth lines.
  516. tom China Syndrome moment
  517. Menel And like 70% of the posts are from him
  518. tom https://cdn.nuegia.net/3cd4613b-99ff-40fc-8330-096a61123b53/Chernobyl%20dubbed%20with%20Half-Life%20SFX-7F1ma_0vwog.mkv
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  524. purplebeetroot > purplebeetroot, I do not follow the chats, but currently I see that you are persecuting someone for religious reasons using 7 fake accounts. lol. wtf. You claim I make this all up? While just a moment prior to that, claiming that you have no idea what's happening. You don't make sense. Try better.
  525. 404.city Menel, I do not read messages, but the news https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9283649/Woman-31-refuses-shave-moustache-unibrow-says-helps-love-life.html of a picture of a woman with a mustache is not a sufficient basis for accusations of hatred of women.
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  527. yellowchopper Request ban of purplebeetroot for threatening a server operator with bad-faith legal action for not doing his/her bidding. That is not acceptable behavior in a room such as this and sets an unacceptable precedent
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  529. 404.city https://xmpp.404.city:5280/usershare/6d33720a4a94189f7b96d206ee5f6128196decf2/YEVcGT48NpXLwSlomll1GgVEQuERQz14KOIqko3i/39575126-9283649-image-a-17_1613911437385.jpg
  530. pintosesk This seems a little out there.
  531. 404.city A the picture and a link to the news from www.dailymail.co.uk was just posted. purplebeetroot started screaming about some kind of hatred for a woman.
  532. jonas’ purplebeetroot, ok, I hope that resolves your problem.
  533. Menel yellowchopper: if you see illegal contend, would you not inform the ad Min before taking legal actions? That's more polite then taking the actions without telling isn't it?
  534. Menel 404.city: that's not how I read that muc
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  537. jonas’ purplebeetroot, ok, I hope that resolves your problem -> https://search.jabber.network
  538. Menel There are also rape fantasy's
  539. perflyst has left
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  541. Ivan A. has left
  542. pintosesk If I may ask, in what channel is this incident taking place?
  543. Ivan A. has joined
  544. Martin purplebeetroot: thank you very much…
  545. tom » <purplebeetroot> > purplebeetroot, I do not follow the chats, but currently I see that you are persecuting someone for religious reasons using 7 fake accounts. » » lol. wtf. You claim I make this all up? » While just a moment prior to that, claiming that you have no idea what's happening. » You don't make sense. Try better. If that is true, would you mind not roping us, the participents of the operators chat in your with targeted harassment campaign. If it's not true please disregard
  546. purplebeetroot jonas’: Ok. Take care.
  547. purplebeetroot .
  548. tom jonas’: are you the person that runs searxh.jabber.network?
  549. dsv has joined
  550. tom If so, I hope that doesn't mean that rooms other people own will get censored from your site, just because someone who is not an admin of a room just makes a lot of noise in the operators chat
  551. dsv has left
  552. Ge0rG is it still censorship if you remove all rooms?
  553. raucao i think he just took down the entire site :(
  554. tom No, it's pretty easy for the admin of a muc to delist a site from there
  555. tom Or the admin of a xmpp server to just filter stanzas based on origin
  556. tom » <raucao> i think he just took down the entire site :( oh no, really? That was a very useful site for the XMPP community
  557. pintosesk It's censorship to perform any form of filtration, the question is whether those filters are sane and good.
  558. tom That's very unfortunate
  559. iramaro has joined
  560. Alex channel discovery still works in conversations
  561. Alex is it a seperate service?
  562. raucao yes
  563. raucao it's only a web directory
  564. raucao doesn't impact xmpp functionality
  565. Alex who runs the service conversations uses?
  566. raucao which service?
  567. Martin > oh no, really? That was a very useful site for the XMPP community I can understand him as someone here threatened to sue him.
  568. tom Wait a second
  569. Alex where does conversations get a list of mucs from when you click discover?
  570. Kris same site
  571. tom Can someone please explain what just happened, as i just joined
  572. raucao oh sry, i didn't know a client used that site in the client
  573. archerships has left
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  575. Alex there is a call to censor specific muc channels from discovery via web and conversations
  576. tom Did search.jabber.network just get taken down because of something that went down in a muc that they don't even host?
  577. Licaon_Kter raucao: > oh sry, i didn't know a client used that site in the client More clients should though
  578. Martin tom: > I can understand him as someone here threatened to sue him.
  579. tom Just because they index public mucs
  580. alien has left
  581. raucao > More clients should though obviously that's debatable
  582. dsv has joined
  583. tom Who threatened to so and why?
  584. tom And in what jurisdiction?
  585. raucao seeing that a single person threating legal action here can take down a thing that the most popular android client uses
  586. southerntofu has joined
  587. tom Yeah this is some BULL SHIT
  588. tom I"m not for this cancel culture mess
  589. Alex it's the weakest point for xmpp, the most centalized
  590. archerships has left
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  592. tom Well, it's about time some of us build more
  593. Alex it's the weakest point for xmpp, the most centralized part
  594. tom So it's not so centralized
  595. raucao censors always target the indexes
  596. alien has joined
  597. raucao in all of history
  598. Ge0rG tom, raucao: running a public service is hard and time consuming. You can't expect a volunteer to implement or keep something running, no matter what.
  599. Licaon_Kter > purplebeetroot, ok, I hope that resolves your problem -> https://search.jabber.network (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  600. tom jonas’: would you mind sharing the source code to your site, so we don't all have to start over from scratch?
  601. raucao Ge0rG: yes, that's why i said if more clients make it a dependency it just increases pressure
  602. jonas’ tom, it’s all online available
  603. tom jonas’: where?
  604. tom It's not online right now 403 forbidden
  605. jonas’ tom, https://github.com/horazont/muchopper
  606. ross has joined
  607. jonas’ but don’t ask me to provide documentation
  608. tom Thanks
  609. tom Do you accept patches over email or xmpp?
  610. jonas’ I was threatened with legal action, so now I have to go ahead and review the things around it to ensure it all works out as I think it does before I can keep the listing online, sorry
  611. jonas’ tom, github
  612. tom Let this be a lesson to all of us that we need multiple servers, in different jurisdictions so we can't get critical infrastructure cancel cultured and censored off the net
  613. Alex jonas': do you plan to take down discovery service for the conversations app as well or just the web portal?
  614. Ge0rG tom: so, when will you bring up the mirror?
  615. jonas’ Alex, I plan on nothing right now, I’m at work, I’m in the middle of my lunch break and just had my day ruined
  616. jonas’ please don’t ask me stuff.
  617. purplebeetroot This would be an option, maybe: > Would you be interested to make s.j.n be part of joinjabber, so that members of that group help you with moderation that is overwhelming for you. > Just so you don't get me wrong: > I do not need to be involved in anyway.
  618. jonas’ I’m going to talk to purplebeetroot to sort this out amicably.
  619. tom Ge0rG: I don't know yet, I have to take a look at the code, understand it and decide if i want to host it directly, modify it and host it, or start my own
  620. jonas’ purplebeetroot, why yes thanks, take that discussion into public after I specifically told you I’m on my lunch break, that’s a good way to start things off
  621. tom I have a lot more free time next week
  622. tom It probably won't be a mirror, I want to run my own spider not just mirror results
  623. Ge0rG tom: yes, that would be good indeed.
  624. jla has joined
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  626. archerships Maybe such lists could be hosted on an immutable storage network, such as lbry or sia? That way, the info couldn't be taken down, even if the original poster wanted to, so long as someone on the network was willing to seed it.
  627. southerntofu archerships, a global censorship-resilient list is not the answer to our problems... it may have other applications but users need human-curated lists of services, not a list maintained by a bot
  628. MattJ Both of you are welcome to start such a project
  629. alien has left
  630. southerntofu yea sorry i'm just catching up on everything that happened here
  631. southerntofu i'm concerned by nazi-friendly admins but also not a fan of censorship, and i believe community-curation is a good balance
  632. archerships @southerntofu Didn't the main source of discovery info just shutdown due to legal threats? It seems to me that censorship resistance is indeed part of the answer.
  633. southerntofu archerships, only because it was a single instance in a specific jurisdiction
  634. tom » <archerships> Maybe such lists could be hosted on an immutable storage network, such as lbry or sia? That way, the info couldn't be taken down, even if the original poster wanted to, so long as someone on the network was willing to seed it. Or just xmpp pubsub
  635. archerships What if the community is full of rigid censors? I mean SJWs got the president of the US booted from Twitter and Facebook.
  636. Menel Is it really against German law to list rooms in a search where illegal contend may be? How do search engines solve this?
  637. 404.city >‎Martin‎: 404.city: Are trolls marked on their passport or ID? In this case, there is reason to believe that the request is related to trolling or persecution for religious reasons. The person must introduce themselves and go through a security check that this is a real person, not a fake persone. In favor of the fact that this troll speaks multiple provocations, as in the case of a mustachioed woman. Posting news about mustachioed women is not misogyny.
  638. MattJ A reminder that this channel is for coordination between XMPP service operators, and discussions about the XMPP network. I consider discussion about services such as s.j.n on-topic, but I don't want to see discussions about specific political issues here.
  639. southerntofu archerships, no Trump got banned because he and previous administration for years have pushed strong repression/censorship of anarchist/revolutionary/antiracist propaganda through para-legal means, and he went slightly too far with his bending of the truth so he got stomped on the nails
  640. archerships @Mattj do you consider how to make XMPP service discover lists censorship resistant on-topic?
  641. MattJ archerships, I'm concerned that such discussions will de-rail into the details of censorship (not everyone agrees with your suggestion already)
  642. MattJ so while I wouldn't say it's strictly off-topic, I think another venue would be better
  643. alien has joined
  644. southerntofu still i agree with you it's worrying that some liberals cheer on trump getting censored, because in the end this censorship will mostly impact revolutionary movements, not nazis (who have strong connections with businesses, law-enforcement, etc..)
  645. pintosesk I would like to assist in the curation and mass hosting of XMPP directories.
  646. archerships @Mattj, well, there seems to be strong contingents in favor of censorship and freedom of speech.
  647. southerntofu k sorry stopping on that regarding trump, i'm digging into the backlog
  648. tom As XMPP becomes more popular, we may begin to experience pains similar to how ActivityPub and Mastodon had, where some people decided to start making not just spam RBLs but political RBLs. Where, block lists not for spammy hosts but block lists for servers that contain people of political ideologies
  649. MattJ 404.city, your message is specifically an example of the kind of message I don't want to see from now on
  650. MattJ Defending or attacking specific political views is not the topic of this room
  651. tom southerntofu: two wrongs don't make a right
  652. yellowchopper > Menel wrote: > yellowchopper: if you see illegal contend, would you not inform the ad Min before taking legal actions? That's more polite then taking the actions without telling isn't it? That is not what's happening here. That was an extortion attempt. Nobody reading it in good faith will see otherwise
  653. Ivan A. has left
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  655. southerntofu tom, that's a very good analogy! a social (human-maintained blocklists) solution to a social problem is the only way..
  656. archerships I'm happy to ignore those hostile to freedom of speech, if you like, and limit discussion to technical aspects of creating censorship resistance.
  657. alien has left
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  659. tom Though, I'm not so sure XMPP will have the same problems mastodon has, as XMPP doesn't have a twitter firehose equivalent
  660. insanity has joined
  661. tom XMPP is also more mature in it's spam fighting tools
  662. insanity has left
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  664. southerntofu tom, XMPP also has a much smaller community which is why such problems don't pop up so often
  665. sol has joined
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  667. tom And user data exposation is usually isolated to mucs, not the entire network, and semi-anonymous mucs do exist
  668. dsv has left
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  670. insanity has left
  671. tom XMPP is not modeled off of twitter
  672. insanity has joined
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  674. archerships It seems that one issue is that not all clients support /block functioning. So people like purplebeetroot either have to tolerate commentary they don't like or leave communities altogether.
  675. archerships (If they're using such a client.)
  676. tom Well at least the problem with psi-plus is that it handles blocking via the legacy privacy-lists method
  677. yellowchopper People like purple aren't content to block people
  678. dsv has joined
  679. tom So on a prosody server with server side blocking support, the blocking button won't work
  680. pintosesk User filtration is in my opinion one of the better solutions to this issue.
  681. insanity has joined
  682. pintosesk Rather than server pruning.
  683. insanity has left
  684. vu764hd68fxt has joined
  685. yellowchopper Remember, purple shared his first recourse: contact the server admin asking to be made a mod in order to ban the offending parties! This is not a person who would be content with blocking
  686. jla has left
  687. pintosesk Removing individuals from a service remains a server maintainer's perogative, but I do not recommend it for actions that are not spam. Room moderators have the ability to more aggressively dictate conversation focus.
  688. tom Yes, users being able to block people is important. That is a lessen we have (hopefully) learned from the standard before XMPP, IRC. However RBL lists for individuals designed to be imported into clients is a rather orwellian overtake on blocking, as there's a pretty big weakpoint into who and what goes into those lists of individual jids. For example, one of my close friend's homepage was put into a blocklist by Cisco Corporation under "fake news". His site is a journalism site that mostly contains writeups about common corporate spyware and other facts inconveinent to big tech corporations
  689. archerships @yellowchopper, yeah, I agree. Hence, my suggestion that the list be stored on an immutable blockchain. Then pbr could make all the threats (s)he likes, and yet the info would remain.
  690. yellowchopper Anyway, the number of people who are willing to defederate over concern trolling by a clearly unreasonable person has alarmed me, and I am interested in archerships' line of thought toward bolstering censorship resistance. Because censorship won't need to knock down the gates, it's within the walls
  691. frog has left
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  694. archerships In additon, implementing more fine-grained blocking technology is still desirable, independent of whether it's a complete solution to the problem of censorship.
  695. raucao fwiw, i wouldn't include a completely uncurated list in my client, but i also wouldn't want one censored by someone with purplebeetroot's sensitivities. it's ovbiously a difficult problem, with difficult trade-offs, and i think not one to be solved here immediately with random "let's keep the data on a blockchain" ideas. why don't you go and build a prototype of what you think makes sense and then you can see if people like it and adopt it (or join the effort). tip: IPFS with IPNS might make much more sense for this use case. no blockchain necessary.
  696. purplebeetroot has left
  697. tom Another mom & pop shop that was a client of mine Google Corporation just decided one day that their site was "malicious" and put their site into "google safe browsing" list.
  698. kryptos has joined
  699. tom Which made their site inaccessible with a big scary red page saying that the mom and pop site were thiefs or something
  700. tom And trying to get their private data
  701. insanity has joined
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  703. pintosesk Any individual looking for a haven of good conversation should create the appropriate room and invite the designated participants, but if censorship of a room a user does not have the rights to is desired, the user should be using clientside tools to deafen themselves to stimuli they'd rather forget.
  704. tom Which was totally untrue
  705. Andy Smith has left
  706. yellowchopper I'm not a fan of "just add blockchain" thinking. The least complex solution is ideal
  707. tom Google Corporation refused to delist the site from Google Safe Browsing, which apparently many other products import and use unless they signed up for a Google account and installed files onto their site
  708. pintosesk I suggest simply mass uploading lists to various surface web locations.
  709. archerships @raucao, blockchains were designed with censorship resistance in mind, so it's not a "random" suggestion.
  710. pintosesk Not against any ToSes, of course.
  711. tom Effectively racketing their site unless they signed up and managed their site through a google console
  712. pintosesk And where authenticity is needed, a PGP sig.
  713. Alex We maybe be faced with a tragedy of the commons situation that doesn't have a neutral solution. Ultimately any lists will be a reflection of the current power dynamics.
  714. raucao archerships: the randomness is in just throwing that word around
  715. tom Please, do not implement blocklist for individuals importanting in a client-facing consumer way
  716. raucao go build something or at least design an architecture first
  717. pintosesk With the user deciding whose sigs and mirrors to use. Same for finding these lists, we can make and upload lists of lists.
  718. insanity has joined
  719. tom Please be considered about how your technology could be used by others with lesser moral ideals, not just yourself
  720. insanity has left
  721. pintosesk Simple enough, and we can integrate the two, forming a list-ring.
  722. raucao if you depend on someone's sigs, and all you need is the content, you can just as easily pin CIDs on IPFS, and get updated from their signed IPNS endpoint
  723. tom I doubt the programmers who work at Amazon Corporations knew they were building a heatmap for finding and stopping unionization in whole-folds
  724. tom Foods
  725. archerships I'm not just throwing the word around. The sia network and lbry are already existing, deployed censorship resistant networks. A lot of youtubers that have been censored have moved to lbry, for example.
  726. tom Or the programmers at google knew their telemetry system was going to be used to total global mass survailance and control
  727. raucao ok, then where's your architecture and prototype?
  728. pintosesk Well, let's try an implementation there, archerships.
  729. pintosesk Don't need anyone's approval to code. :p
  730. pintosesk I've got about an hour before work, but I'm interested in this problem.
  731. tom archerships: a content addressable file store isn't what's needed to solve the chat list issue
  732. raucao it's a much better solution for that use case than a blockchain
  733. tom The chat list is dynamic, it's not just some large video file that needs to be distributed
  734. Alex tom is right, this is ultimately a governance issue
  735. raucao there's no tokeninzed value whatsoever in a chatroom list
  736. raucao tom: yes that's what IPNS is for
  737. archerships raucao, why are you being so unreasonable? You expect me to have already have a prototype up? jonas took down his site less than an hour ago.
  738. tom And who owns and can change the IPNS address?
  739. tom See the problem?
  740. raucao whoever's signature you would follow on the chain
  741. raucao god, now i have to explain blockchains to people here
  742. pintosesk As the chat list updates, you just need a web of dynamically updated lists of mirrors, the mirrors themselves can be static.
  743. raucao can it get more offtopic?
  744. pintosesk And come with a revision or timestamp.
  745. raucao i'm working with this stuff regularly
  746. Alex it will be up to client and sever developers what lists can be fetched though
  747. raucao go look into IPNS and similar, please
  748. tom I'm aware of IPNS and IPFS raucao
  749. insanity has joined
  750. tom I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the problem here
  751. 86ul has left
  752. raucao lol, ok
  753. tom It's not a technical problem
  754. raucao then go discuss it elsewhere
  755. tom It's a jurisdictional one
  756. raucao this is an xmpp operator room
  757. steven has left
  758. raucao thank yuou
  759. tom There needs to be more that one big search engine for xmpp mucs
  760. insanity has left
  761. raucao "big"
  762. southerntofu tom, agreed with your criticism of JID blocklists.. i much rather trust a server operator to have trust (or lack thereof) in other operators for moderation, than in 3rd parties to come up with sensible blocklists
  763. archerships Yes, but governance issues can be addressed by technical solutions. If threats from people like pbr can be made technically futile, then it seems to me that they're less likely to make them.
  764. yellowchopper > tom wrote: > It's not a technical problem True, but it may have a technical solution. Because people are creating the problem, not solving it
  765. archerships Who are the mods for this list?
  766. pintosesk You can't stop individuals from censoring, this whole thing is about blocking and filtering. the idea is to get groups of individuals to point to each other and form distinct bubbles.
  767. pintosesk So you end up with rings of blockers with trust in each other.
  768. yellowchopper > pintosesk wrote: > You can't stop individuals from censoring, this whole thing is about blocking and filtering. the idea is to get groups of individuals to point to each other and form distinct bubbles. No. This is a failure state
  769. southerntofu yellowchopper, yes i'm willing to defederate with people/servers who encourage/maintain nazi propaganda, and i encourage others to do the same. this is not just an online stance though there is a long tradition of kicking nazis in the face so they may have a sudden realization they're in the wrong
  770. pintosesk Explain, yellowchopper.
  771. yellowchopper A new user needs to be able to find his bubble. A fragmented network will prevent this. You will get stuck in the bubble you are introduced to
  772. Alex well put
  773. yellowchopper Any solution to this will more or less be the same as a solution to the whole problem
  774. Alex this is the crux of the matter
  775. tom » <archerships> Yes, but governance issues can be addressed by technical solutions. If threats from people like pbr can be made technically futile, then it seems to me that they're less likely to make them. No archerships, the issue is not that I can't access https://search.jabber.network right now resulting in a 404. The issue is that there's only one person running a search engine. Supposed that s.j.n was backed by IPFS right now. Sure, I could access the website my going back and looking at a previous dag hash, but that doesn't mean that list is going to get updated and curated by the same person anymore
  776. 404.city > ‎MattJ‎: Defending or attacking specific political views is not the topic of this room I think there is a trolling problem here. You seem to have not yet encountered attacks of 300 troll's per day per chat. For six months. They cannot be silenced.These trolls talked among themselves in order to forge a certain public opinion. Okay, I will be silent.
  777. tom And if availability was the ONLY issue to be solved, I could just download the list ounce and store it locally
  778. tom But
  779. tom Again
  780. tom It won't get updated
  781. southerntofu tom, yea Google Safe Browsing is the precise example of how 3rd party blocklists can go wrong (i'm suprised we haven't had such bad experience with PiHole-style DNS blocking yet)
  782. pintosesk Well, I can't say I'm a source of pure information because my attention span limits my ability to catalogue all existing blocklists.
  783. southerntofu Alex, the tragedy of the commons is many people i know abandoned Jabber/XMPP ecosystem over the years because the few rooms they found to chat in they felt very unwelcome in (mostly women felt unwelcome)
  784. pintosesk So just out of capacity manual sharing is going to fail.
  785. telmich Good morning
  786. southerntofu archerships, blockchain is bullshit. peertube offers a youtube alternative with a fair balance between censorship-resilience and moderation, you should really check it out as more and more people move onto there
  787. telmich I am starting with a fresh/new ejabberd installation and I get a lot of `odbc connection failed` error messages from the debian default installation. There is no odbc configuration in the ejabberd.yml, so I wonder if I did something wrong here
  788. yellowchopper > southerntofu wrote: > yellowchopper, yes i'm willing to defederate with people/servers who encourage/maintain nazi propaganda, and i encourage others to do the same. this is not just an online stance though there is a long tradition of kicking nazis in the face so they may have a sudden realization they're in the wrong You and others like you are the problem. This is not a civil position. Violence is not a refutation. Nobody will feel sorry for you if the big bad nazis end up being the ones to kick you in the face, because you can't be the victim when you start the violence
  789. tom southerntofu: about threatening to sue indexers for not de-listing, that works both ways too. Adblockplus was threatened with legal action by functionalclam for blocking their site, which they claimed bypassed their DRM under the DMCA and got their adblocklist modified by github
  790. pintosesk I'm more concerned with the user having the option to access a piece of software that respects their freedom of choice than I am about getting that software or specific lists in people's hands.
  791. steven has joined
  792. Alex southerntofu, I don't think xmpp is meant to solve issues of comfort, it just facilitaties communication. anything we build on top of that is governance and a seperate discussion
  793. tom Another reason you shouldn't use github, github tampers with your git repos
  794. pintosesk Unsticking people from bubbles is not possible is we assume the people do not want to make effort to leave them.
  795. pintosesk > Unsticking people from bubbles is not possible if we assume the people do not want to make effort to leave them.
  796. tom https://github.com/easylist/easylist/commit/a4d380ad1a3b33a0fab679a1a8c5a791321622b3
  797. tom » gorhill replied Aug 11, 2017 » » There are forces out there working to turn user agents into private interests agents -- i.e. to turn browsers into proprietary devices. This is a manifestation of this. »
  798. southerntofu archerships, yellowchopper: there is no technical solution to human problems.. in the end implementing "perfect censorship-resilient neutrality" is direct support to the nazis because they have considerable resources to spread their ideology (they employ considerable amounts of people for propaganda), while most admins/users are sympathetic to opposite worldviews.. a technical neutrality in this case means siding with the people who have the most resources and the most bigoted view
  799. insanity has joined
  800. Alex southerntofu I'm not sure I buy your premise
  801. insanity has left
  802. pintosesk I think focus should be directed into expanding user choice by their own ability and with the ability to adjust the hubs by which they access content.
  803. pintosesk So that users are given the option to self-host.
  804. tom southerntofu: you are wrong, and here's why: That goes both ways. It's just whatever power system is currently in charge. Back in the 60s and 70s in the united states there was a organization called the HUAC
  805. tom House of Unamerican Acts
  806. archerships Speaking of governance, who are the mods of this group?
  807. southerntofu yellowchopper, i'm ok with being kicked in the face by a nazi if that's the price. but claiming antifascist violence (a few punches in the face) is the same as nazi violence (actual murders in the current days, genocides previoulsy) is weird
  808. archerships @pintosesk, agre.
  809. Alex matt and ralph
  810. pintosesk The server or system through which we create these lists, or lists of lists, should be kept close to the clients, or even the XMPP JID.
  811. tom They existed to find anyone of even slightly liberal ideogy and cancel culture them
  812. yellowchopper > southerntofu wrote: > archerships, yellowchopper: there is no technical solution to human problems.. in the end implementing "perfect censorship-resilient neutrality" is direct support to the nazis because they have considerable resources to spread their ideology (they employ considerable amounts of people for propaganda), while most admins/users are sympathetic to opposite worldviews.. a technical neutrality in this case means siding with the people who have the most resources and the most bigoted view I'm not a communist. I don't refuse to do the right thing because some nazi out there might find convenience in it. Again, people like you are the problem
  813. pintosesk So that you can pop into nayone's bubble.
  814. pintosesk Anyone*
  815. tom southerntofu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activities_Committee
  816. southerntofu tom, i did not see any legal threats in here. i just finished the backlog (50 messages to go) and pbr simply explained the legal situation, did not threaten to escalate to courts
  817. pintosesk The goal is accessibility. True censorship resistance is a matter of it being easy to bypass censorship in one spot, and then easy to transfer that bypass to others.
  818. raucao > I prefer group mediation, but again if I feel forced, I'm open to push as hard as it requires to create change. I do not limit myself to mere complaining to some authorities > I'm in for conflict mediation. But do not try to push me, unless you can accept the consequence of your behaviour. southerntofu: correct, this doesn't even sound like legal action only to me. it sounds like if i met this person IRL, and they said this to me before, i'd be prepared to defend myself against violence. tolerating that level of aggressiveness is not something i want to be part of in a public room.
  819. tom Government changes, people in charge change, systems change.
  820. southerntofu Alex, "comfort" and "survival" are more or less the same thing when it comes to nazism/patriarchy
  821. pintosesk I thus suggest being able to offer blocklists between XMPP users.
  822. tom What is in power and in vogue now, may not be the same and benefit you in the coming future
  823. Martin southerntofu: He misspelled attorney as Antony, but it's easy to get that he asked Jonas whether he has a lawyer…
  824. tom It's important to build technological systems with that in mind
  825. southerntofu tom, i'm aware of anti-progressive censorship (which is to this day far more common than anti-nazi censorship, all across the globe)
  826. Martin So that's a clear threat of legal actions.
  827. pintosesk A well maintained bubble that keeps a majority of users out and unable to even do that is not possible to remedy without an outside source, at which point the user may well be amenable to making an account on a different server, or self-hosting.
  828. tom Never forget martin luther king was under targeted survailance by the NSA and FBI because at the time, they were considered 'threats to national security'
  829. yellowchopper > southerntofu wrote: > yellowchopper, i'm ok with being kicked in the face by a nazi if that's the price. but claiming antifascist violence (a few punches in the face) is the same as nazi violence (actual murders in the current days, genocides previoulsy) is weird Let's forget about the congressional baseball shooting and other inconvenient facts
  830. tom They were considered terrorists
  831. Martin That someone who offers that service for free in his spare time clearly doesn't want to spent money, time and sanity on…
  832. tom Now they are stable elementary school education
  833. Martin Such toxic people do great harm.
  834. southerntofu yellowchopper, i don't care if you're a communist or what kind of communist.. do you feel okay with inviting nazis to your birthday party? do you feel okay when all your women/jewish/tsigan friends leave the room because of that? if so then i guess we have a strong disagreement
  835. yellowchopper > southerntofu wrote: > tom, i'm aware of anti-progressive censorship (which is to this day far more common than anti-nazi censorship, all across the globe) When the big lie fails, play victim. You need to stop. This game doesnt end well
  836. jabba003 has joined
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  838. 404.city In XMPP, the system of blocking participants in group chats is not well developed. Blocked trolls simply re-create accounts and log in again with different nicknames. This is problem.
  839. insanity has joined
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  841. southerntofu raucao, i don't condone that type of aggressiveness in public rooms either, but i have to admit pbr's aggressiveness is just a tiny drop of water in the ocean compared to actual violence advocated/committed by neonazis across the planet, so the tradeoff is fine with me
  842. insanity has left
  843. yellowchopper > southerntofu wrote: > yellowchopper, i don't care if you're a communist or what kind of communist.. do you feel okay with inviting nazis to your birthday party? do you feel okay when all your women/jewish/tsigan friends leave the room because of that? if so then i guess we have a strong disagreement Private rooms exist my friend. Theres a technical solution to a human problem for you 😄
  844. pintosesk None of this political theatre is going to affect the ability and considerations of users to spread information among each other.
  845. pintosesk And that's a fundamental *human* tool.
  846. southerntofu Martin, i have received legal threats in the past and i can assure you pbr's message doesn't look anything like a legal threat, merely a legal exposé
  847. tom 404.city: it's mainly an issue with open registration servers. We had the same people back in the day with open relay SMTP servers, then one day when EMAIL was popular enough we decided as a network we were going to block any servers acting as open relays on the public internet
  848. alien has joined
  849. tom I suspect that XMPP may one day face a similar situation
  850. dsv has left
  851. southerntofu tom, yes CoIntelPro political repression had many comrades murdered over the years (Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, etc..) so rest assured i'm definitely not advocating for state surveillance/censorshi ;-)
  852. pintosesk Personally, I don't mind open relay or registration systems, so long as the user is the one doing the filtration.
  853. tom And especially as the world grows past survailance capitalism bussiness model, free services not run by nonprofits and volunteers may also dissapear
  854. pintosesk And so long as the server is willing to transport the load.
  855. raucao > raucao, i don't condone that type of aggressiveness in public rooms either, but i have to admit pbr's aggressiveness is just a tiny drop of water in the ocean compared to actual violence advocated/committed by neonazis across the planet, so the tradeoff is fine with me what are you even talking about? you don't condone it, but you condone it, because... why?
  856. raucao are you saying jonas is a nazi?
  857. tom southerntofu: big corporations are just as powerful, if not more powerful than states nowadays.
  858. southerntofu yellowchopper, i'm not aware of baseball but i can tell you the nazi violence i see with my eyes around me is levelsahead of any kind of anti-nazi self-defense, nazis have actual guns and use them regularly to do school shootings (all school shooters to my knowledge are active nazis/misogynists), mosque attacks, killing random people of color by throwing them into the river.. it's another whole new level
  859. tom "corporations are so big you don't even know who your working for. That's terror. Terror built into the system"
  860. southerntofu yellowchopper, just like with police repression.. police repression against Jan6 fascist demo was actively prevented by higher-ups in the hierarchy protecting the nazi insurrection. while every smaller black lives matter demo has been severely gased and beaten down by every police available
  861. tom It's just as important if not more important to just outsource surveillance and censorship to corporations, just because they aren't governments on paper
  862. yellowchopper > southerntofu wrote: > Martin, i have received legal threats in the past and i can assure you pbr's message doesn't look anything like a legal threat, merely a legal exposé Like I said, a good-faith reader will see it was an attempt to intimidate and extort. You are not reading in good faith. You are nakedly regurgitating communist talking points in defense of an indefensibly toxic personality. All you've done is reveal to everyone your word is not to be taken with any amount of seriousness
  863. tom *not outsource
  864. insanity has joined
  865. raucao southerntofu: so basically, anyone merely claiming that they saw a nazi somewhere can now be aggressively threatening non-nazis in venues you attend, and you're completely fine with that, because... actual nazis once had death camps?
  866. MattJ Ok, I looked away for a while, and I already don't like the look of this discussion
  867. insanity has left
  868. MattJ Please folks, keep on topic and/or take it to another venue
  869. raucao yes, can we just agree to not threaten people, please?
  870. Alex MattJ, they can
  871. southerntofu raucao, no i'm not saying jonas is a nazi sorry.. we're talking about actual nazis in some MUC servers
  872. Alex MattJ, they can't it's been censored lol
  873. pintosesk Human beings don't need to communicate amongst one another, but most humans do. This includes unfavorable ones. Taking away their ability for them to do this is at your discretion if you offer the platform. I only need a place where I can communicate freely, I'm not going to care about the correctness of a censored bubble, nor should you about my incorrect communications, if I have any.
  874. pintosesk That is my opinion. Enforce at will, people will gravitate towards their designated zones, we just need a client or implementation capable of traveling between them, even if someone forks and neuters it.
  875. dsv has joined
  876. southerntofu pintosesk, i also don't like speech control, but i understand the value of some admins banning me from their servers for my political opinions, just like some people could kick me away from their homes.. or doesn't that make sense to you?
  877. pintosesk We just need one instance of user ability, and perhaps a more powerful clientside content filter.
  878. 86ul has joined
  879. tom southerntofu: not really until you become a problem
  880. jabba003 has left
  881. tom Preemptive banning is dumb
  882. pintosesk It does, because I don't fundamentally agree with the need to centralize any information I can download.
  883. 404.city MattJ, Me too don't like, this is a chat for interaction between operators. This I think is discussed here offtopic topics
  884. pintosesk Including chat history, user contacts, etc.
  885. yellowchopper This room is a failure. No consensus can be reached with dishonest ideologues who will lie to your face and insist you do as they demand or you're a nazi
  886. Licaon_Kter tom: > There needs to be more that one big search engine for xmpp mucs s.j.n is not a search engine, but a searchable list
  887. southerntofu tom, agreed
  888. Alex licaon_kter: what's the difference?
  889. southerntofu so, where should we move this conversations to?
  890. tom Well s.j.n runs their own spider
  891. MattJ southerntofu, you choose
  892. tom And accepts tstring text queries
  893. pintosesk I see no negative value from people exercising functional ability. I cannot stop them, so I won't feel as if I ought to unless I have a reliable tool to do so. Social mechanisms are a poor tool.
  894. pintosesk Technology is a reliable toolset.
  895. tom How is s.j.n not a search engine?
  896. Alex I would recommend you check what other mucs are up on j.s.n, but it's down ;_;
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  899. tom What is the muc in question that started all this drama?
  900. pintosesk I was curious about the origin as well.
  901. southerntofu tom, i'm not even sure.. my personal bad experiences with reactionary propagandists was on sécurité-vie-privée@chat.jabberfr.org but apparently this was about some 404.city MUC?
  902. pintosesk So, think about that, southerntofu. If you can physically do something or technologically do something on your server or systems, and I get angry about your choice, what can I practically, non-socially do about it? Barge into your house and reconfigure your computer?
  903. frog has joined
  904. MattJ pintosesk, off-topic
  905. yellowchopper > tom wrote: > What is the muc in question that started all this drama? We only have purple's side of the story. And, seeing how purple behaved, I dont think it's reliable.
  906. pintosesk Ah, sorry.
  907. MattJ yellowchopper, off-topic
  908. pintosesk Alright, Matt, lemme check the topic field and reorient myself.
  909. balabol.im has left
  910. pintosesk Ah. It's being used as a room title.
  911. tom » pintosesk> So, think about that, southerntofu. If you can physically do something or technologically do something on your server or systems, and I get angry about your choice, what can I practically, non-socially do about it? Barge into your house and reconfigure your computer? HACK THE PLANET!!!!
  912. pintosesk So, we're kicking this back to operational communications between XMPP server owners?
  913. MattJ This MUC exists to help people running XMPP services coordinate with each other, discussions about specific political issues should go elsewhere
  914. archerships As Mattj doesn't seem to like the political side of the censorship debate here, where would y'all recommend we take it? Is there another MUC for free speech issues you would recommend?
  915. Menel > What is the muc in question that started all this drama? xmpp:news@chat.404.city?join
  916. yellowchopper MattJ: I'm talking about events that transpired in this very room. And will again in all likelihood, because nothing has been done to show they are not permitted
  917. MattJ If you want to create a MUC for operators of a particular belief, go and do that somewhere
  918. MattJ yellowchopper, yes, and I apologise I was not here to moderate the discussions sooner
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  921. tom I'll host such a muc
  922. yellowchopper Purple's behavior in here has been beyond unacceptable and the political conflict is the result of politically aligned people acting in solidarity with purple
  923. MattJ The problem is that there are multiple beliefs in this MUC, and they are incompatible. Discussions about rights/wrongs will not end, if we make that the topic
  924. MattJ and in that case the MUC will lose its intended purpose
  925. yellowchopper I propose a light solution: ban purple for derailing this room and going to far as to threaten a server operator with bad-faith legal action. Then we consider it a closed case
  926. southerntofu pintosesk, i'm not gonna force you to do something on your server (or vice-versa) but i do want to empower admins to federate or not with other servers depending on their respective policies.. this is what's happening in the fediverse and is creating a very friendly/welcoming place for all sorts of people
  927. MattJ I'm not happy with the way that was conducted, but I'm drawing a line here, I'm not going to ban people in retrospect
  928. tom How about this, purple isn't harassing right now
  929. tom The situation has ended
  930. MattJ Otherwise most occupants would have to be banned by now :)
  931. MattJ Good, situation has ended, conversation and drama can end here too
  932. dsv has left
  933. southerntofu tom, agreed :)
  934. tom If it happens again by the same person in the same manner not to long from now, then discuss actions but otherwise lets not do anything too hasty when it comes to banning
  935. MattJ Agreed, I'm not keen on taking things that far. Hence my polite requests.
  936. southerntofu i believe there's room in the joinjabber collective for a working group on allow/block-lists for federation, if that's of interest to folks
  937. rom1dep has joined
  938. tom The joinjabber collective?
  939. tom Kollective
  940. MattJ Feel free to link alternative discussion venues
  941. yellowchopper That might be why civility is so fragile in this room. I think threatening people to get one's way is a hard line and that merely not being in chat doesnt undo or end it
  942. 404.city >i do want to empower admins to federate or not with other servers depending on their respective policies Typical trolling method. Divide and and quarrels
  943. tom I think it's just that the spark was already set and the chat's temp is returning to normal temp as we speak
  944. tom But the burnout time is not instant
  945. southerntofu 404.city, please stop trying to rally us all under a common flag, we obviously have nothing in common and we agreed this discussion would end here
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  950. tom I like the diversity of opinions and stances here. I think it's a sign of health from a network perspective
  951. insanity has left
  952. yellowchopper Also it doesnt look like this room has any capacity to resolve conflict, but instead ignites it along political lines. Good faith is a losing strategy against political solidarity. All that will ever happen here is people will defederate and self-congratulate about it. The partition is inevitable. The only reason to be here is to eat popcorn and watch the entertainment
  953. mathieui Says the person with a pepe avatar
  954. insanity has joined
  955. pep. :D
  956. Alex don't take the bait
  957. balabol.im has joined
  958. southerntofu is glad they haven't got avatars in their TUI clients :P
  959. 404.city southerntofu, I think you're talking offtopic. This is not a political chat, there technical questions.
  960. frog has left
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  962. MattJ 404.city, sorry, but the same applies to you
  963. yellowchopper Last I checked pepe was apolitical
  964. southerntofu last i checked pepe was alt-right neo-nazi symbolism but well.. 404.city technical is political, or do you believe an atomic bomb is a politically-neutral tool?
  965. southerntofu i'll stop here as we obviously will not agree on anything
  966. yellowchopper Everything is nazism to you
  967. dsv has joined
  968. MattJ We're done with the off-topic, folks
  969. mathieui But anyway, MattJ wants this room to be about server administration (automate fight against spammers and whatnot) and not moderation, which I can certainly understand, since it is not exactly the same topic the same topic
  970. Bjarkan has left
  971. mathieui -the same topic
  972. tom southerntofu: please stop
  973. MattJ I'm (temporarily) removing voice from anyone who continues with off-topic discussions
  974. Bjarkan has joined
  975. MattJ I have better things to do than try to keep this channel civil
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  977. mathieui (I'm the one who suggested that purple comes here since they mistakenly thought the 404.city was coming in one of my mucs, but I should have directed them to the contact info instead, apologies)
  978. tom has left
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  980. tom Has anyone attempted so far running an XMPP server with federation from an OpenNIC TLD? Such as .fur, .geek, .oss, .pirate
  981. tom And certificate authorities that sign for non IANA tlds
  982. tom Since a certified tls cert is required nowadays
  983. steven Does let's encrypt do this? That'd be epic
  984. tom I recently reconfigured my recursive resolver for OpenNIC's root-hints and dnssec and I am quite happy with what I feel is a much better organizational structure for the root of dns than IANA
  985. Licaon_Kter What's the fun part there? The odd TLD?
  986. tom steven unfortunately letsencrypt does not. The issue was brought up on their form back in 2014-2017 but they refused
  987. tom Licaon_Kter: well for one the OpenNIC TLDs are much more internet community centric
  988. tom Some of them don't even charge
  989. tom And browser their sites is a throwback to pre-eternal september internet
  990. Ge0rG LetsEncrypt is bounded by the CA/Browser Forum requirements.
  991. tom Or at least pre-2008 internet
  992. tom https://community.letsencrypt.org/t/do-you-support-opennic-top-level-domains/4473
  993. tom There's a search engine i found, grep.geek
  994. tom https://cdn.nuegia.net/aa01cbf3-a8c6-4c29-8935-f24a309c95bb/screenshot_016.png
  995. tom It's pretty good
  996. perflyst has joined
  997. tom Very accessible and clean
  998. tom There are a few new CA projects i've heard of so far, one by opennic themselves
  999. tom here is their cert... I think, but it's expired https://cdn.nuegia.net/ff7cb131-4143-4288-819a-e6c483fdcd07/opennic_root_ca.crt
  1000. tom Their wiki is a bit fragmented
  1001. 404.city has left
  1002. tom I'd like to host an XMPP server on a OpenNIC tld since i personally sleep better having the root of dns be managed by an OpenNIC NIC then the current shitstorm of the IANA, especially after all the drama with the .org TLD
  1003. tom I am concerned about potential federation problems though
  1004. mathieui tom, you will probably encounter dialback issues
  1005. tom Perhaps this is something we as the XMPP operator community should address new while it's an early issue to pave a way of less resistance for others in the future
  1006. mathieui it is kind of the same problems as a .onion-only XMPP service
  1007. tom I wouldn't say that it's the same as that
  1008. tom It's just a matter of a resolver configuration
  1009. tom And OpenNIC isn't a seperate internet
  1010. mathieui tom, it is *easier* than federating with a.onion, technically, but operator-side it is kind of the same
  1011. mathieui (i.e. making it possible for each server to reach the other using the designated name)
  1012. mathieui but instead of having to connect to Tor, you have to add some DNS resolver configuration
  1013. tom For one, a lot of the OpenNIC NICs have cybersquatting against their terms of service
  1014. tom http://nic.fur/?tpl=tos
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  1017. tom » FurNIC may delete registered domains, and address allocations if they conflict this Terms of Service, be expired, not configured three months after registration, domains are "Parked" for more than six months or FurNIC is forced so by legal actions.
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  1021. tom More info on opennic for those that don't already know https://www.opennic.org/
  1022. tom I make and maintain IP routers
  1023. tom I'm going to be preconfiguring them with recursive resolvers using OpenNIC as the root of dns to help spread adoption
  1024. Beherit has left
  1025. tom Perhaps even submit a pull request to unbound to change this by default
  1026. tom I wonder how they'd react to such a patch
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  1029. tom (Unbound resolver has the IANA root hint and dnssec root key compiled in and used by default if no root hint is specified)
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  1036. pepta.net My opinion: thinking that two authorities may coexist in a central authority system is utopia. Then a third authority? What else? Next step: TLD collision war? Control is all, so everything is locked. Worthless.
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  1041. MattJ Ok, I know this is a different topic, but it would be hypocritical of me to overlook this as also beginning to go off-topic... it's too soon :)
  1042. dsv has left
  1043. pepta.net Agreed.
  1044. insanity has joined
  1045. MattJ Federation of XMPP over "alternative" networks is an interesting topic and challenge
  1046. insanity has left
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  1048. MattJ From an implementation perspective, there aren't many barriers, assuming there is a trust mechanism involved (i.e. that comes for free with .onion and (I think) i2p stuff)
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  1051. MattJ Just providing DNS with no means to obtain trusted certificates though, is problematic (if you care about secure federation)
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  1054. tom If we used a system like convergence for x509 authenticity this wouldn't even be a problem to solve, however something is still needed in the interum
  1055. insanity has left
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  1057. tom I am aware of at least two opennic friendly certificate athorities
  1058. tom Opennic themselves are creating one as we speak
  1059. perflyst has left
  1060. tom I've sent a few email out asking questions waiting for a response
  1061. MattJ Great, then things will hopefully get easier :)
  1062. tom There's also stuff on the opennic wiki
  1063. ross has left
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  1065. tom It may come down to some of us operators changin their dns settings and/or installing a cacrt into the system trust instead of just blinding using the Mozilla bundle
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  1122. pep. > Ge0rG> LetsEncrypt is bounded by the CA/Browser Forum requirements. Now that they're the most used (right?) CA, I'm sure it's their choice to make, it's a different dynamic.
  1123. Ge0rG pep.: I'm sure that they'll immediately use their too-big-to-fail position to pursue *our* political agenda.
  1124. pep. Not what I'm saying. Just saying it's a choice, they're not "bound" to it :)
  1125. Ge0rG That's like saying that you are not bound by law - it's a choice if you go around murdering people or not.
  1126. frog has joined
  1127. pep. Kinda, we have the many corruption cases of political figures to prove this :)
  1128. pep. But I'm disgressing
  1129. raucao the LE folks are already looking into .onion domain support. so opennic isn't entirely unrealistic i guess
  1130. raucao in the long term
  1131. Ge0rG pep.: maybe you can make that argument on https://github.com/letsencrypt/boulder/issues/1309
  1132. pep. hah
  1133. Ge0rG I'll have my popcorn emoji ready.
  1134. pep. I'm not saying I'm supportive of the CA mafia btw, I'm just saying using that as an excuse is hypocrit
  1135. pep. (the CA/Browser forum thingy)
  1136. Ge0rG pep.: well, you could also put on your tinfoil hat and say that LE won't change their stance because Mozilla and Chrome are LE Platinum sponsors.
  1137. pep. Does that really require tinfoil
  1138. Ge0rG But maybe the mundane truth is that they needed an objective set of criteria of what to do and what to forbid, and that set of criteria needed to be approved by the browser vendors, and as it happens the CABF baseline requirements were just in the sweet spot for the task at hand
  1139. kryptos has left
  1140. Ge0rG And if somebody wants to change the status quo, they need to either modify the CABF-BR or provide an equally suitable set of rules, convince the browser vendors to accept that set of rules, and convince LE to switch their implementation to follow that set of rules
  1141. Ge0rG And that would be a significant effort for every party
  1142. Ge0rG but of course it is a choice to make.
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  1145. Ge0rG they just happen to choose "keep things as is" over "do a multi-year process to slighty improve the situation for a marginalized sub-group"
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  1152. pep. Right so we agree it's a choice
  1153. alacer has left
  1154. pep. It's just either to keep the status quo than try to change things :)
  1155. pep. And we disgress again?
  1156. Ge0rG As long as we don't disgrace.
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  1159. pep. Still slightly annoyed with your use of "objectivity" but I'll leave it at this.
  1160. Ge0rG The one place I used that word was to describe a need, I didn't even apply that attribute to any existing entity.
  1161. pep. "Something objective set of rules [..] And it just happens the CABF baseline requirements were just in the sweet spot for the task at hand".
  1162. Ge0rG pep.: well yes, that's a rought quote of what I wrote.
  1163. Ge0rG I'd even go so far as to claim that the CABF-BR _is_ an objective set of rules, because it makes very clear definitions of what it allows and what it disallows, so it is easy to agree on whether some implementation fulfills or fails it.
  1164. pep. Isn't that rather "explicit" than "objective"
  1165. Ge0rG so maybe instead of "objective" I could have said "unambiguous", but I would consider the meanings to be close enough, and I actually tend for the former because it has a slighty wider meaning.
  1166. jayteeuk has left
  1167. pep. That word is just so overloaded with meaning I'd refrain from using it entirely
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  1171. Ge0rG "objective - based only on facts and not influenced by personal feelings or beliefs"
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  1174. pep. We're gonna disgress even more if you bring in the word "fact"
  1175. Ge0rG Well yes, I'm sure that choices were made when writing the CABF-BR.
  1176. Ge0rG But the whole debate of the last half-an-hour was pointless, because none of us is going to do anything impactful about it.
  1177. pep. That wasn't a goal of mine here
  1178. Ge0rG IMVHO, framing it as a "choice" for LE won't help you make any improvements. It is a much better and useful framing to say that LE is going to adhere to the CABF-BR and to join the committee that updates CABF-BR to make the required changes.
  1179. Ge0rG s/say/accept/
  1180. pep. It's the pretending that's annoying to me. If I wanted to be practical about this case I'd try to get rid of the CA mafia altogether
  1181. Ge0rG `rm -rf /etc/ssl/certs/` and you are done
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  1183. Ge0rG But if you don't want to be practical about it, we should stop now.
  1184. Ge0rG Otherwise, you could try to find out why and how point C of https://archive.cabforum.org/pipermail/public/2016-September/008473.html was motivated.
  1185. Ge0rG And bring up a change to that.
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  1560. Kris anyone running a Jackal server? seems like they recently had a bigger release: https://github.com/ortuman/jackal/releases/tag/v0.50.0
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