XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-03

  1. tom

    Not me, it's Go reliance is concerning

  2. tom

    Seems like a liability

  3. allie

    tom, Go reliance? how is that a liability?

  4. tom

    Well, Go is Google's own language for Google's own purposes. I don't work at or for Google, so my personal needs and goals will not always align with Google's. Google has final say over the direction of the language not a community board like FreeBSD. Also I don't just Google Corporation's reputation for BDFL management like OpenBSD or Python's Guido. Google also says that they purposefully gimped their language because they assume they are so much smarter than everyone else https://kill-9.xyz/go.webm I generally distrust a 'we know better than everyone' mentality.

  5. tom

    ^that's Rob Pike

  6. allie


  7. MattJ

    I removed the moderation flag from the room. Folks with on-topic things to say who don't currently have voice, feel free to rejoin the room to regain it, or PM me

  8. ernst.on.tour

    Okay, working again πŸ˜€

  9. benk

    Where is the room where moderation/federation discussion would be on topic?

  10. Menel

    benk: maybe here xmpp:chat@joinjabber.org?join

  11. pep.

    yeah we're talking about that, ideas welcome

  12. kikuchiyo

    > Would be nice for Conversations to gain a /ignore feature > You're telling me > I'd love to see that At least one thing all can agree on. It should be accompanied with a counter on how many people are ignoring you in a MUC, otherwise this is just shadowban.

  13. Licaon_Kter

    kikuchiyo: pls move this discussion there instead

  14. kikuchiyo

    Licaon_Kter: ok

  15. kikuchiyo

    Sorry just read the massive backlog...

  16. tom


  17. archerships

    FYI, I've created a MUC for free speech issues related to XMPP: xmpp-and-free-speech@conference.movim.eu

  18. archerships

    MUC description: "XMPP and Free Speech is for the discussion of free speech issues related to XMPP servers. People of all political persuasions are welcome. Both technical and cultural/political discussion is welcome. Please be polite and kind at all times, even if others are not. Rude behavior, threats (including legal threats), and other misbehavior may result in muting or banning. This is a public list that might be publicly archived, so please be cautious about saying anything that might get you in trouble with your local government or employer."

  19. MattJ

    Excellent! :)

  20. jonas’


  21. christian

    archerships: maybe also mention that god is punishing people who misbehave.

  22. Wiktor

    Haha not everyone is christian

  23. christian

    Yes but you cover more people ;-)

  24. frostburger

    "(a) God" would cover more except people like me

  25. frostburger

    Either way fairy tales

  26. frostburger

    archerships: "The MUC is for members only"

  27. christian

    Yes but if you mention god, government, employers, family and wife you catch almost all.

  28. christian

    If you do not have a god or a job you can at least have a wife

  29. frostburger

    Except lonely Martians

  30. MattJ

    Ok folks, off-topic

  31. frostburger

    Well, I should go. I was here to check the complaint if you are way into conspiracies by reading the history. Confirmed.

  32. frostburger


  33. archerships

    FYI, if you tried to join XMPP and Free Speech and got a "members only" message, it should be fixed now.

  34. archerships

    Also here's a better join link: xmpp:xmpp-and-free-speech@conference.movim.eu?join

  35. purplebeetroot

    Are you serious people? I'm getting harrased, receiving request to better kill myself...and more of the really fun stuff, and you think it's a good idea to support neo-fascists such as archership on their mission to find a new space for those parler and gab user. wtf. Do some research befor giving your +1 to such harmful individuals. And no, stop putting the burden of such research onto the victims of their discusting culture. It is your responsibility.

  36. purplebeetroot

    Also: why the fuxk is Alex still not banned from this room???

  37. MattJ

    purplebeetroot, this room is for discussions between operators of XMPP services, not for discussing political views

  38. MattJ

    Currently you're the one breaking that rule, and I don't want you to be the first to be banned

  39. Licaon_Kter

    purplebeetroot: there's the room link above, go there pls

  40. purplebeetroot

    So the sorry line is: You welcome abusers, and you make this space uncomfortable for the victims. If you insists this is not a matter server operators should care of, you choose to target the victim in support for the abuser. Go a head. You will choose, what ever is more inline with your political position. I'm watching.

  41. MattJ

    And in case you think that I think the behaviour you describe is ok, I don't. But this is not the venue to discuss or resolve such serious issues, it's just a MUC for XMPP service operators....

  42. MattJ


  43. MattJ

    This has gone on long enough

  44. ernst.on.tour

    MattJ: Hi Matt, he was doing same thing a few days ago in Conversations-muc. But "we" could "defense" him. I try this also on 2021-03-01 at 21:47UTC in this muc but saddly I was not able to PM you

  45. MattJ

    I'm afraid they had warnings, and I'm fed up of moderating a MUC that has turned into some political battleground

  46. MattJ

    Serious issues as they described should be reported to the authorities, not to random chatrooms on the internet, that literally will solve nothing

  47. southerntofu

    benk, pep. the subject has been brought up several times in chat@joinjabber.org so maybe starting a working group on this specific issue makes sense?

  48. moparisthebest

    to try to steer back on-topic, who was it looking for an IRC -> MUC bridge the other day ? Kris ? did you end up finding anything good ?

  49. ben

    bitlbee works well enough

  50. moparisthebest

    no, uh, to host something that looks like an IRC server to IRC clients, but actually lets them join MUCs with it (transparently to them)

  51. MattJ

    I heard rumour that this is theoretically possible with bitlbee

  52. Kris

    no it seems yours it still the relative best

  53. MattJ

    but that it may be broken or something

  54. moparisthebest

    ugh that's sad

  55. MattJ

    some multi-user mode or something

  56. Kris

    bitlebee does have jabber support, but you need a jabber account and it is more like a puppet gateway

  57. moparisthebest

    (sad that my abandoned hack of a python script is still the relative best, that is)

  58. Kris

    maybe motivation to write a proper one? πŸ˜‰

  59. southerntofu

    seriously though if some folks want to start working on proper interop between IRC/matrix/jabber/acitivitypub in a statically typed language (to avoid bad surprises) i'm sure it's possible to get grants for that and get paid to work on it full-time

  60. moparisthebest

    Kris, it's still languishing deep down on my list of things to write yes :P I keep hoping someone else will beat me to it

  61. moparisthebest

    southerntofu, such as from where ? I think I only know of nlnet, and generally those seem to be grants for existing projects. for this, I'd want to use Rust and only Rust, personally

  62. southerntofu

    rust sounds like the best candidate for that but yes i was thinking NLNet mostly

  63. southerntofu

    of course you need some PoC to show for application ;)

  64. southerntofu

    but mapping social vocabulary/protocols as a library is something that's needed on all fronts hell maybe even matrix foundation could drop a bill ;)

  65. moparisthebest

    I think their end-goal is user lock-in though

  66. Kris

    I think their end goal is to earn some money and they don't particulalry care how πŸ˜‰ My guess is actually that their government contractor arm will slowly take over the entire operation and individual users etc. will feel left out and leave again.

  67. Kris

    lots of colateral damage with 3rd party client developers along the way

  68. Kris

    but some might switch to xmpp with the help of StanzaJS

  69. southerntofu

    Kris, it's not impossible, but it's pure speculation at the moment.. in any case interop is invaluable between all networks..

  70. Kris

    yeah, but lets be ready for the eventuality πŸ˜‰

  71. moparisthebest

    but, all-in-one things usually end badly (think pidgin) where as things with one very specific job can be *very good* (think biboumi)

  72. moparisthebest

    so personally what I'd write is a very specific thing that looks like an IRC server to IRC clients, but lets them join XMPP MUCs seamlessly, basically exactly like xmpp-ircd is now, except you know, not python and actually good

  73. Kris

    yes something like that would be great, but maybe easier achived by taking an actual lighweight IRC daemon like Oragono and componentize it.

  74. Kris

    maybe there is a rust IRC daemon?

  75. southerntofu

    moparisthebest, uninformed opinion here but i don't believe protocol-agnostic abstractions is the problem with pidgin

  76. southerntofu

    well with libpurple anyway

  77. moparisthebest

    certainly not the *only* problem

  78. southerntofu

    if the abstractions are well thought-through for a certain number of protocols then it's not a problem

  79. moparisthebest

    a guy in my IRC channel is working on an rust IRC daemon right now actually :)

  80. southerntofu

    it is a problem when you start an abstraction for a certain kind of protocol and then have to implement it for protocols that behave in wildly different ways

  81. moparisthebest

    I'm hoping to be able to use it for this shortly-ish

  82. Kris

    cool, try to nudge him towards designing it in a componentizable way from the beginning. xmpp-rs supports components?

  83. southerntofu

    so for a limited number of protocols (4) mapping a restricted number of features is really not a problem.. it's just a lot of work

  84. southerntofu

    but certainly a statically-typed language like ocaml/haskell/rust is much better suited to this task than pidgin/libpurple's C

  85. neelix

    Purplebeetroot why are you acting like a retard? You fucking gay nigger gorilla.

  86. moparisthebest

    neelix, grow up, none of that was appropriate

  87. neelix

    It is appropriate moparisthebest

  88. MattJ

    People make me sad

  89. southerntofu


  90. southerntofu

    congratulations on reacting swiftly though :)

  91. MattJ

    Whatever you want to call them, I'm not sure that is an accurate label for 100% of the people that make me sad

  92. Kris

    mostly stupid trolls and not real nazis

  93. southerntofu

    MattJ, a lot of other people make me sad as well, but there's still a lot of really cool people around

  94. southerntofu

    Kris, well let's not dive into off-topic again but i'm not convinced ;)

  95. MattJ

    Yes, we have other venues now :)

  96. southerntofu

    (there's plenty of ways to troll including non-nazi trolling :P)

  97. moparisthebest

    well, I guess we at least have something to celebrate eh? XMPP is popular now

  98. moparisthebest

    used to be a bunch of nerds pining that it wasn't popular enough, that's no longer the problem

  99. MattJ

    s/now/again/ :D

  100. southerntofu

    shit MattJ i told you you shouldn't have started this "Make XMPP great again" campaign with red caps ;)

  101. southerntofu


  102. Kris


  103. moparisthebest

    this is all that pesky guy that started that snikket thing's fault I'm sure

  104. moparisthebest

    these young whippersnappers with their "easy onboarding" and such

  105. vanitasvitae

    Snikket made XMPP approachable to idiots!!!111

  106. MattJ

    Snikket has been accused of so many things now, I'm sure we can add that to the list :)

  107. moparisthebest

    back in my day we had to compile libraries to get on XMPP

  108. vanitasvitae


  109. MattJ

    vanitasvitae, it also made it unapproachable. A recent comment on Reddit: "Snikket looks good. Shame it's still invite-only."

  110. MattJ

    I tried to reply, twice, and then gave up

  111. moparisthebest


  112. MattJ

    I understand the confusion, and I think it will get clearer next time I revamp the website

  113. vanitasvitae

    Plz invite me to teh snicketz!

  114. MattJ


  115. vanitasvitae

    Aah thats the way to get money into xmpp I see :P

  116. southerntofu

    vanitasvitae, i'll give you invite code after you click a few advertisements on my blog ;) ;)

  117. southerntofu

    reminds me of this very shady peertube instance (and other services) i just found on ploud.fr which asks for a lot of private info and explicitly mentions advertisement on your mobile phone in the terms & conditions..