XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-10

  1. tom

    Is it theoretically or practically possible for a TCP connection to fail to setup over a loopback interface? Assuming the transport is perfectly ideal eg, the linux kernel loopback interface; Can you expect TCP to work 100% of the time?

  2. jonas’

    tom, no

  3. jonas’

    there are always resource limits which can be hit, e.g. lack of available source ports

  4. tom

    Say you check the return code of prosody's HTTP server for a 200OK every 10 seconds for months on end

  5. tom

    One fails

  6. tom

    Otherwise the logs don't report anything good AND the daemon quitting successfully with a regular SIGTERM

  7. tom

    Should I suspect prosody's failure or check_http's failure

  8. tom

    I've got plenty of headroom there jonas

  9. jonas’

    tom, which daemon quit?

  10. tom


  11. tom

    I have a screen which checks prosody's health every 10 seconds

  12. tom

    And restarts the daemon if it doesn't work

  13. Licaon_Kter

    OVH on fire, everyone is up? https://nitter.fdn.fr/olesovhcom

  14. tom

    What kind of hosting company releases updates over some third party social media service instead of their own website

  15. tom

    That is laughable

  16. jonas’

    using a third party service is exactly what you should do

  17. jonas’

    and exactly what should be in your plans

  18. jonas’

    when your DC is on fire, you cannot rely on your own website being available

  19. tom

    Speaking of, what kind of datacenter catches on fire

  20. jonas’

    any datacenter can catch fire

  21. tom

    Their built not to though

  22. jonas’

    rumors are that this was an arc fault in DC equipment. if that happens at the right amperage, you can only let it burn down

  23. tom

    Halon systems and whatnot

  24. jonas’

    halon systems are forbidden in the EU since the 90ies

  25. tom

    » <jonas’> when your DC is on fire, you cannot rely on your own website being available OVH is big enough to have an HA webserver, or at least anycast

  26. jonas’

    tom, they also have that: https://status.us.ovhcloud.com/

  27. jonas’

    so maybe also stop assuming that twitter is their only communication channel ;)

  28. jonas’

    the OVH folks aren’t idiots

  29. Licaon_Kter

    > OVH SAS hosts 54 XMPP servers: ['404.city', '57n.org', 'alternanet.fr', 'biboumail.fr', 'bonjourbonjour.win', 'brie.tech', 'chat.mass-trespass.uk', 'chatme.im', 'chif.fr', 'creep.im', 'cybercod.com', 'death.social', 'etwinning.ovh', 'feichtmayr.com', 'fisle.eu', 'gdr.name', 'hildebrand.pro', 'hostux.im', 'howlettmartin.com', 'im.ameci.org', 'im.logipren.com', 'im.mastd.racing', 'im.openalgeria.org', 'jabber.libre-informatique.fr', 'jabber.otr.im', 'jix.im', 'ketchupma.io', 'lain.church', 'libreti.net', 'maillard.im', 'mass-trespass.uk', 'mathdacloud.ovh', 'maxhill.de', 'momi.ca', 'napis.xyz', 'natalie.ee', 'netsec.im', 'openalgeria.org', 'parleur.net', 'qth.fr', 'seeadoc.ca', 'spritneybeers.de', 'stuff2233.club', 'suchat.org', 'tamytro.org', 'thesecure.biz', 'utsuro.ml', 'xmpp.dk', 'xmpp.fossgalaxy.com', 'xmpp.howlettmartin.com', 'xmpp.ps-ef.net', 'xmpp.re', 'xmpp.taiga-san.net', 'xmpp.zered.net'] from https://codeberg.org/infosechandbook/scripts/raw/branch/master/other/xmpp-server-hosters.txt

  30. jonas’

    hopefully none of them in SBG[1234]

  31. Licaon_Kter

    creep.im: U ok?

  32. mike

    chatme.im has been offline for a couple of years now, that list doesn't look very current.

  33. tom

    You can never be too sure with people who use twatter or tracebook for anything other than marketing to their own websites

  34. Licaon_Kter


  35. jonas’

    also, if you are the CEO of a cloud company whose DC just literally went up in flames… I don’t fucking blame you for using twitter.

  36. Licaon_Kter

    mike: 2019

  37. tom

    Thanks for that list Licaon_Kter

  38. mike

    Yeah that's about when I last recall seeing it online.

  39. tom

    » <jonas’> also, if you are the CEO of a cloud company whose DC just literally went up in flames… I don’t fucking blame you for using twitter. jonas’, when disasters happen on this scale there were several things and factors that were festering for a very long time that allow them to happen

  40. jonas’

    tom, I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

  41. Licaon_Kter

    tom: fire and twitter accounts don't mix, c'mon

  42. jonas’

    but before speculating, maybe wait for a post mortem?

  43. Licaon_Kter

    I bet the CEO did not put the nuts and bolt of the building :)

  44. tom


  45. Licaon_Kter

    Yes, hopefully they'll do a postmortem

  46. tom

    Mismanagement at best

  47. jonas’

    also, I’d like you to be a bit more thoughtful

  48. jonas’

    the engineers which are now having a real bad day might even be here if they run a private XMPP server

  49. tom


  50. tom

    We will see

  51. tom

    Licaon_Kter: » >The last big downtime crisis at OVH also happened at the Strasbourg campus. A power outage in 2017 brought the entire campus down. Forty minutes later, its campus in Roubaix lost connectivity due to an unrelated software bug in networking equipment.

  52. tom

    They have been having "power problems" for a very long time

  53. tom


  54. tom


  55. tom


  56. creep.im

    Licaon_Kter: I'm good, thank you

  57. creep.im

    didn't notice any disruptions

  58. Kris

    https://jix.im/ is effected

  59. Kris

    otherwise the xmpp world seems fine?

  60. moparisthebest

    there's always a silver lining https://twitter.com/craiu/status/1369633870786797568

  61. Licaon_Kter

    moparisthebest: the "known" but not taken down part is...odd...c'mon...

  62. Kris

    I find it interesting in just how much the cloud hosting pricing race to the bottom has not only resulted in massive overprovisioning of VPS hardware, but also servers being hosted in litteral old shipping containers (and buildings that seem hardly more in substance).

  63. moparisthebest

    are you saying recycling is bad ? :P

  64. Kris

    does anyone remember that study that showed most xmpp servers are hosted on Hetzner infra? all I can find right now is a similar one on Mastodon servers: https://bitkeks.eu/blog/2020/03/underlying-problem-fediverse-decentralised-platforms.html

  65. moparisthebest

    I'm not sure that's a problem though, I mean, assuming proper backups etc it should be easy to quickly fail over to anywhere else

  66. Kris

    to some extend yes. but some of the privacy benefits of xmpp are lost when the data just moves from one server to the other in the same datacenter

  67. Kris

    in regards to metadata

  68. moparisthebest

    I'm not sure, the datacenter has more visibility, but state actors likely have less

  69. Licaon_Kter

    Kris: so...you say I should make my own datacenter first? Host at home? "Oh terrible" Host at hosting? "Oh noes" Effing move the goalpost further

  70. Kris

    hostng at home (depending on your ISP) is great

  71. Kris

    and at least in theory it can be even greater with ip6

  72. Kris

    but what I am actually saying: some awareness of datacenter centralisation and resulting issues is probably good to have

  73. Kris

    people complan about AWS and then happily host their stuff on Hetzner because it costs 20ct less per month

  74. moparisthebest

    I don't know that there's an easy solution though, generally I like a reliable provider other people are happy with, not a brand new one I have to test first

  75. Kris

    yeah no easy solutions to that one

  76. xorman


  77. Ge0rG

    just move it into the cloud with homomorphic encryption!

  78. Kris

    fefe reader exposed

  79. Ge0rG


  80. Licaon_Kter

    > fefe reader exposed :)

  81. Kris

    ah maybe not. famous german IT blogger just had a bit rant about homomorphic encryption 😉

  82. Kris

    ah maybe not. famous german IT blogger just had a big rant about homomorphic encryption 😉

  83. jonas’

    FWIW, I don’t host at hetzner because they’re cheap, but because they’re the *only* european hoster I was able to find which: - offers proper IPv6 (= /64 or greater, *routed* to the server) - proper virtualization (no virtuozzo or lxc, real kvm) - isn’t super shady, i.e. offers at least GDPR-compliant contractor things (I only know the german term, "Auftragsverarbeitungsvertrag")

  84. jonas’

    if you know another ISP which offers that, I would *really* like to know, because currently most of my stuff is in the same AZ (hetzner’s) and I like cross-AZ redundancy

  85. jonas’

    it still needs to be affordable though, >15 Eur/month for a mail server is not something I’m going to invest.

  86. Kris

    netcup.de has the same I think, but also in germany

  87. moparisthebest

    I moved to hetzner in about 2013 after using many other hosts over many years and so far they've been the best

  88. jonas’

    netcup is on my do-not-use-list

  89. Kris


  90. jonas’

    I had very bad interactions with them when moving a domain from them to another registrar

  91. moparisthebest

    it's always good to see other suggestions though

  92. ben

    i like hetzner and ovh, currently using soyoustart

  93. Kris

    ah, yes they are a bit possessive of their .de domains

  94. ben

    i ordered an ax101 from hetzner like a month ago one evening while a bit drunk

  95. ben

    still trying to decide what to put on it

  96. moparisthebest

    isn't soyoustart also ovh ?

  97. Ge0rG

    Kris: of *their* .de domains? ;)

  98. Ge0rG

    well, DNS is obviously black magic that nobody understands.

  99. Kris

    Yeah, DNS... but kind of understandable as labour costs for even 5 minutes of support on 20ct/month domain name reselling basically wipes out any profit for the next 10 years.

  100. ben

    yeah soyoustart is an ovh sub-company

  101. Ge0rG

    I'm looking for somebody from omemo.im

  102. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG, their website lists contact@omemo.im

  103. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: and their 0157 lists an email address, but they have no MX.

  104. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: I pinged the JID an hour ago

  105. vanitasvitae


  106. Ge0rG

    maybe I just shouldn't expect express delivery.

  107. jonas’

    PSA: I changed the JID of the search.jabber.network crawler. It is now crawler@search.jabber.network. So don’t be surprised if you see that in your logs instead of the old christopher.muclumbus@search.jabbercat.org

  108. Licaon_Kter

    Ge0rG: omemo.im was just a fork of Conversation, abandoned...

  109. Licaon_Kter

    From 2018 > > JID: contact@omemo.im > According to https://omemo.im/contact.html

  110. Licaon_Kter


  111. Licaon_Kter


  112. Licaon_Kter


  113. Licaon_Kter


  114. jonas’

    aaand their issue tracker was slashdotted :)