XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-21


  1. tom

    Is anybody else getting spammed from stellarnet.xyz or know the abuse contact for them?

  2. jayteeuk

    Nothing here (thus far).

  3. tom

    » Mar 20 23:07:08 s2sout55795640d860 info Outgoing s2s connection nuegia.net->conference.prosody.im complete » Mar 20 23:07:09 s2sout55795640d860 info Session closed by remote with error: not-well-formed » Mar 20 23:07:09 s2sout55795640d860 info Outgoing s2s stream nuegia.net->conference.prosody.im closed: not-well-formed » this keeps showing up in my logs

  4. thndrbvr

    With respect to media/file uploads & per-account quota, is there any way to grant higher amounts for a specific set of users? I.e. those who've financially contributed, mods, etc.

  5. menel

    Wrong channel? It depends on your server implementation.

  6. thndrbvr

    Nope, talking about XMPP here.

  7. tom

    thndrbvr: that's all down to your http_upload implementation

  8. thndrbvr

    I'm using MetronomeIM. Haven't touched those settings yet.

  9. tom

    I think it's kind of shady here https://snikket.org/#section1 they call it "the snikket network"

  10. menel

    I suppose you have to look at the metronome docs. Its quite likely user specific quota is not yet implemented, but I didn't look.

  11. tom

    Just imagine if google corporation called their email service "the gmail network"

  12. menel

    I suppose Matt whanted to avoid the evil "xmpp" as much as possible. Its the client/brand first approach. What he said in the talk. People want one branding over all platforms. Don't be confused with more. And experienced users will figure it out on their own.

  13. thndrbvr

    Sad but true. Also, I tried using Snikket once and couldn't do anything with this account. Lol

  14. thndrbvr

    The f-droid version, even. Just kept teling me I needed to buy a snikket account. Frankly, it seems like malware. It's not a terrible idea but it's poorly executed IMHO.

  15. thndrbvr

    Like, I definitely understand the need for financial support. Heh.

  16. menel

    thndrbvr: ok, you are just bad at reading. Sorry. You didn't understand snikket at all.

  17. menel

    Its a self host server solution the client does nothing without it. Its expected

  18. menel

    I like the approach of snikket very much. Only the website needs a Better explanation ut seems

  19. thndrbvr

    the app allowed me to sign in with my yax.im XMPP account. Loaded up messages and wouldn't send them.

  20. menel

    Then you did something wrong. Its just conversations rebranded with a little extra. And I just tried it and it worked with my non snikket account

  21. tom

    I know that but it is misleading and shady the way it talks about the server

  22. tom

    Calling it "the snicket network"

  23. tom

    I get the point, it's an attempt to preach to computer illiterates

  24. thndrbvr

    I don't know what I could've done wrong. Lol. I've no problem with Conversations, Blabber, or Xabber.

  25. menel

    Jeah, thats debatable. tom I don't like that one sentence too much too.. But like the project

  26. tom

    But it risks with anybody who knows even a little bit about computers thinking "oh great another NIH syndrome reinvent the wheel network"

  27. menel

    thndrbvr: I don't know. But its literally just conversations.

  28. tom

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

  29. tom

    I know mattj isn't going evil on us, don't worry. I'm just stating how the particular choice of wording makes it sound shady

  30. menel

    tom: but its the same standard! Thats the point

  31. tom

    If I wouldn't have known about snicket before hand I would have looked at it and thought it was another matrix.org

  32. tom

    Immediately dismissed it and told others not to use it

  33. menel

    Thats sad its really a super user experience for xmpp. And it will not introduce breaking changes to xmpp

  34. tom

    It's also kind of shady in that XMPP is not forfront, for example jitsi talked about XMPP but there's still no way I know of to talk to a jiti user with my xmpp client

  35. menel

    But will upstream awesome features for us all like easy invite

  36. menel

    > It's also kind of shady in that XMPP is not forfront, for example jitsi talked about XMPP but there's still no way I know of to talk to a jiti user with my xmpp client Not with snikket. Its just a prosody server well configured. And in future clients from all os with the same branding. Because thats what users are missing and all go to signal and matrix

  37. thndrbvr

    That's a good idea. So long as they continue to mention it's XMPP then great.

  38. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: bucause you see mentions of HTTP or IMAP everywhere not just "internet browser" or "email" right?

  39. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: > The f-droid version, even. Just kept teling me I needed to buy a snikket account. Frankly, it seems like malware. It's not a terrible idea but it's poorly executed IMHO. You have a screenshot with the word BUY? The latest version even has a "i have an account" to just loginzas usual, it's just a mustard theme Conversations now

  40. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: > The f-droid version, even. Just kept teling me I needed to buy a snikket account. Frankly, it seems like malware. It's not a terrible idea but it's poorly executed IMHO. You have a screenshot with the word BUY? The latest version even has a "i have an account" to just login as usual, it's just a mustard theme Conversations now

  41. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: you did read https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/ already, right?

  42. thndrbvr

    Nope. Tried it a few weeks ago. I uninstalled it after a few minutes. Tried sending some messages. I could read/recieve but it refused to send.

  43. Licaon_Kter

    Then something else must have been at fault

  44. menel

    Maybe it was still fetching omemo keys or something.. I tried it as you said that and there was everything ok. And I don't think the code thst touches writing messages is any different from conversations/blabber/ _all the forks_

  45. thndrbvr

    Hello?

  46. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: ?

  47. thndrbvr

    Hello? Testing with Snikket.

  48. menel

    xmpp:general@channels.snikket.org?join thndrbvr

  49. thndrbvr

    Anyway. I feel like I've got a mystery on my hands. I can't register an account on my server. Metronome is running. The error logs aren't showing anything. I'm not seeing anything useful in the regular logs. Luac doesn't report anything wrong in the config. The DNS should be correct.

  50. menel

    I see you already found the metronome muc. I suppose you need to have patience that someone that knows metronome can awnser

  51. thndrbvr

    Sorry, wasn't sure if someone here knew something that could help. It's stressful running into so many issues setting things up. (not just with the XMPP server)

  52. menel

    prosody and ejabberd works for most very good. Don't know about metronome.

  53. menel

    Try snikket server seriously. Its complete automatic everything

  54. tom

    menel: nah

  55. tom

    There's always a bunch of scripts to setup prosody automagiclly too

  56. tom

    And there are ""turnkey""" linux isos

  57. tom

    The problem is, while that works for like a proof of concept or demonstration, I wouldn't actually want my main server or something i rely on setup the way it is in automated scripts or turnkey isos do

  58. tom

    I don't have any problem with reading some documentation to understand, then typing out a config file

  59. tom

    If you can't do that as the bare minimum, you probably shouldn't be hosting a xmpp server

  60. tom

    When the incompetently run transient XMPP servers eventually have problems (and they always do) it makes XMPP as a whole look bad

  61. tom

    It also gives decentralization as a whole look bad to the computer illiterates if all they've ever used are like, the transient mastodon servers that die or have their domain registration laspse or tls certs after a few months or a year

  62. thndrbvr

    What I like about Metronome is the wide support for XEPs and microblogging related stuff as it's being used with GNU Social (and PeerTube and JSXC). I'm not seeing a list of supported XEPs or much of any information, really, on Snikket's site.

  63. thndrbvr

    I like Snikket's goals. Once they get there and are more mature it'd be worth looking into.

  64. tom

    Oh, microblogging with XMPP is something i'm really curious about, however I've yet to see some actual client software that isn't some god-awfull clusterfuck of javascript that shouldn't exist

  65. tom

    And a native client

  66. thndrbvr

    Lol

  67. tom

    Not just another piece of shit shoe-horned into a web browser that will only ever work with google chrome and maybe firefox

  68. thndrbvr

    One day when I win the lottery they'll be one. :)

  69. tom

    /Unironically/

  70. menel

    xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join A better place to talk about all this. Its offtopic here

  71. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: Snikket is prosody...you don't find what?

  72. thndrbvr

    Oh, right. I thought it was a modified fork of it. Like, we know that Snikket is XMPP with a Prosody server but snikket.org doesn't seem to mention that nor point to any real documentation.

  73. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: read the blogpost already

  74. thndrbvr

    K

  75. tom

    I read the post, I just disagree with it

  76. tom

    Strongly

  77. tom

    » <thndrbvr> One day when I win the lottery they'll be one. :) let me know when you do that thndrbvr, I'd love to try it out

  78. tom

    ;3

  79. thndrbvr

    » let me know when you do that thndrbvr, I'd love to try it out An XMPP based microblog application. What if that were based on something like a modern Choqok or Dianara? Something that already handles federated microblog accounts.

  80. xorman

    Movim uses Metronome too?

  81. moparisthebest

    > Just imagine if google corporation called their email service "the gmail network" Isn't that exactly the case ?

  82. moparisthebest

    Snikket isn't trying to market to existing XMPP users, it's trying to get new people on board, so it shouldn't bring up confusing things like XEPs and such

  83. jonas’

    thndrbvr, fwiw, what moparisthebest says is true. Also Snikket isn’t using a forked prosody, it is using prosody with modules from prosody-modules and very few lines of additional module code for some specific things, such as handling server upgrades in-place and checking for updates

  84. jonas’

    you can go and see for yourself: https://github.com/snikket-im/snikket-server/

  85. jonas’

    and I think that the moment Snikket starts to advertise any XEP, it has lost :)

  86. moparisthebest

    Think about it this way, any normal XMPP server can be used for family/friends chat, or work chat, teams chat, iot stuff, public server for anything, it's very flexible and has infinite setup combinations, that also makes it rather complicated

  87. moparisthebest

    Snikket is for chat between family and friends period, anything else, go with another server

  88. moparisthebest

    This let's them focus on making it perfect for it's one use case

  89. jonas’

    "one tool for one job" kind of

  90. Licaon_Kter

    xorman: > Movim uses Metronome too? ejabberd

  91. Link Mauve

    “08:53:45 tom> It's also kind of shady in that XMPP is not forfront, for example jitsi talked about XMPP but there's still no way I know of to talk to a jiti user with my xmpp client”, you just have to join the same MUC with both clients.

  92. Wiktor

    Link Mauve: too bad it's not integrated more tightly... https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6235#issuecomment-617278152

  93. Link Mauve

    Wiktor, what do you mean?

  94. moparisthebest

    Jitsi: interop through embedding our iframe only

  95. moparisthebest

    Nice open standard you got there

  96. Wiktor

    Link Mauve: what moparisthebest said

  97. Link Mauve

    Except that’s only what they support, not what they can do.

  98. moparisthebest

    Sure if you are willing to reverse engineer everything, they don't change it, and they don't actively block you or file a DMCA complaint

  99. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, err, it’s a simple MUC. :|

  100. Link Mauve

    And the voice and video part are standard Jingle on top of that.

  101. moparisthebest

    All I know is what that issue says, they refuse to do any xmpp-based interop, they want anything else to embed their iframe or nothing

  102. Wiktor

    Link Mauve: do you have any docs on that? Also what's the source of your claim? Did you check it? Just curious hope you don't mind me asking :)

  103. Link Mauve

    No ; looking at the XMPP exchanges between Jitsi Meet and Prosody, and subsequently running poezio alongside ; yes.

  104. Wiktor

    Great. Thanks for your insights!

  105. Holger

    Right, I keep joining Jitsi Conference rooms (on ejabberd, i.e. no hidden custom Jitsi modules) in order to make the conference persistent and enable MUC MAM and stuff.

  106. Wiktor

    What are the namespaces of their jingle stuff that they post to the MUC? I assume it's something custom as IIUC the video bridge is the participant that is being called.

  107. Link Mauve

    Wiktor, normal Jingle.

  108. Link Mauve

    It’s the jicofo which broadcasts the Jingle stuff.

  109. Wiktor

    I thought normal jingle is via normal messages not muc groupchat ones? Or it doesn't matter?

  110. Link Mauve

    Wiktor, Jingle lets you advertise any RTP endpoint, it doesn’t have to be the one in your client, that’s how jicofo advertises jitsi-videobridge’s endpoints.

  111. Link Mauve

    Doesn’t matter.

  112. Wiktor

    Understood, thanks for the explanation Link Mauve.

  113. Wiktor

    Seems simple enough to adjust already working jingle clients to this scenario. (assuming basic features, nothing fancy)

  114. Licaon_Kter

    Holger: > to make the conference persistent and enable MUC MAM and stuff. Why?

  115. Wiktor

    Licaon_Kter: supposedly to read the chat backlog later? (if any)

  116. Holger

    Right, we typically want persistent (and password protected) rooms with MAM chat logs at work.

  117. Holger

    But yes the A/V-conference-specific communication has non-standard bits now.

  118. Holger

    I.e. you no longer can implement an alternative Meet client or server just by reading XEP-0340.

  119. Wiktor

    Thanks for clarification Holger. That was my impression but I didn't look at the XML console.

  120. Licaon_Kter

    Holger: > Right, we typically want persistent (and password protected) rooms with MAM chat logs at work. Oh, this is an answer to the "first one in" is a Moderator issue? By making the room password protected as a normal room there's no need to join first

  121. Holger

    Partly. It makes sure no unrelated atracker will take over your room. But if that persistent room is empty, whoever rejons it first is the admin.

  122. Holger

    I.e. it doesn't help teachers make sure their pupils won't take over.

  123. Licaon_Kter

    Mmm

  124. Licaon_Kter

    > Jitsi: interop through embedding our iframe only > Nice open standard you got there It's called EIFaaS _(EmbeddedIFrame-as-a-Service), mmmkay :) > https://developer.8x8.com/jaas/docs 😉

  125. Licaon_Kter

    > Jitsi: interop through embedding our iframe only > Nice open standard you got there It's called EIFaaS _(EmbeddedIFrame-as-a-Service)_, mmmkay :) > https://developer.8x8.com/jaas/docs 😉

  126. tom

    That is bullshit

  127. Holger

    Presumably that's what they're paid for, whereas nobody pays for updating the XEP.

  128. jonas’

    Link Mauve, curious. when I looked into adding a (text only) bot to a jitsi room, jicofo crashed right after it joined.

  129. jonas’

    I then went on to write some mod_firewall rules to hide the bots presence, that works just fine now.

  130. moparisthebest

    That seems like a pretty bad bug in jicofo right?

  131. tom

    Possibly intentional? Or at least intentionally WONTFIX

  132. Sam

    that is certainly not intentional or WONTFIX

  133. thndrbvr

    <Licaon_Kter> Holger: > to make the conference persistent and enable MUC MAM and stuff. Why? Have you heard of Clubhouse? It's vulture capital funded voice chatrooms.

  134. tom

    » vulture capital funded LMAO

  135. Licaon_Kter

    thndrbvr: and?

  136. Holger

    > when I looked into adding a (text only) bot to a jitsi room, jicofo crashed right after it joined. Didn't run into this, but then Meet shows non-Meet clients as participants with broken cam so you might want to hide their presence anyway.