XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-21


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  330. tom Is anybody else getting spammed from stellarnet.xyz or know the abuse contact for them?
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  358. jayteeuk Nothing here (thus far).
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  512. tom » Mar 20 23:07:08 s2sout55795640d860 info Outgoing s2s connection nuegia.net->conference.prosody.im complete » Mar 20 23:07:09 s2sout55795640d860 info Session closed by remote with error: not-well-formed » Mar 20 23:07:09 s2sout55795640d860 info Outgoing s2s stream nuegia.net->conference.prosody.im closed: not-well-formed » this keeps showing up in my logs
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  549. thndrbvr With respect to media/file uploads & per-account quota, is there any way to grant higher amounts for a specific set of users? I.e. those who've financially contributed, mods, etc.
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  552. menel Wrong channel? It depends on your server implementation.
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  555. thndrbvr Nope, talking about XMPP here.
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  561. tom thndrbvr: that's all down to your http_upload implementation
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  565. thndrbvr I'm using MetronomeIM. Haven't touched those settings yet.
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  581. tom I think it's kind of shady here https://snikket.org/#section1 they call it "the snikket network"
  582. menel I suppose you have to look at the metronome docs. Its quite likely user specific quota is not yet implemented, but I didn't look.
  583. tom Just imagine if google corporation called their email service "the gmail network"
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  585. menel I suppose Matt whanted to avoid the evil "xmpp" as much as possible. Its the client/brand first approach. What he said in the talk. People want one branding over all platforms. Don't be confused with more. And experienced users will figure it out on their own.
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  589. thndrbvr Sad but true. Also, I tried using Snikket once and couldn't do anything with this account. Lol
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  592. thndrbvr The f-droid version, even. Just kept teling me I needed to buy a snikket account. Frankly, it seems like malware. It's not a terrible idea but it's poorly executed IMHO.
  593. thndrbvr Like, I definitely understand the need for financial support. Heh.
  594. menel thndrbvr: ok, you are just bad at reading. Sorry. You didn't understand snikket at all.
  595. menel Its a self host server solution the client does nothing without it. Its expected
  596. menel I like the approach of snikket very much. Only the website needs a Better explanation ut seems
  597. thndrbvr the app allowed me to sign in with my yax.im XMPP account. Loaded up messages and wouldn't send them.
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  602. menel Then you did something wrong. Its just conversations rebranded with a little extra. And I just tried it and it worked with my non snikket account
  603. tom I know that but it is misleading and shady the way it talks about the server
  604. tom Calling it "the snicket network"
  605. tom I get the point, it's an attempt to preach to computer illiterates
  606. thndrbvr I don't know what I could've done wrong. Lol. I've no problem with Conversations, Blabber, or Xabber.
  607. menel Jeah, thats debatable. tom I don't like that one sentence too much too.. But like the project
  608. tom But it risks with anybody who knows even a little bit about computers thinking "oh great another NIH syndrome reinvent the wheel network"
  609. menel thndrbvr: I don't know. But its literally just conversations.
  610. tom https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
  611. tom I know mattj isn't going evil on us, don't worry. I'm just stating how the particular choice of wording makes it sound shady
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  613. menel tom: but its the same standard! Thats the point
  614. tom If I wouldn't have known about snicket before hand I would have looked at it and thought it was another matrix.org
  615. tom Immediately dismissed it and told others not to use it
  616. menel Thats sad its really a super user experience for xmpp. And it will not introduce breaking changes to xmpp
  617. tom It's also kind of shady in that XMPP is not forfront, for example jitsi talked about XMPP but there's still no way I know of to talk to a jiti user with my xmpp client
  618. menel But will upstream awesome features for us all like easy invite
  619. menel > It's also kind of shady in that XMPP is not forfront, for example jitsi talked about XMPP but there's still no way I know of to talk to a jiti user with my xmpp client Not with snikket. Its just a prosody server well configured. And in future clients from all os with the same branding. Because thats what users are missing and all go to signal and matrix
  620. thndrbvr That's a good idea. So long as they continue to mention it's XMPP then great.
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  653. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: bucause you see mentions of HTTP or IMAP everywhere not just "internet browser" or "email" right?
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  656. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: > The f-droid version, even. Just kept teling me I needed to buy a snikket account. Frankly, it seems like malware. It's not a terrible idea but it's poorly executed IMHO. You have a screenshot with the word BUY? The latest version even has a "i have an account" to just loginzas usual, it's just a mustard theme Conversations now
  657. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: > The f-droid version, even. Just kept teling me I needed to buy a snikket account. Frankly, it seems like malware. It's not a terrible idea but it's poorly executed IMHO. You have a screenshot with the word BUY? The latest version even has a "i have an account" to just login as usual, it's just a mustard theme Conversations now
  658. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: you did read https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/ already, right?
  659. thndrbvr Nope. Tried it a few weeks ago. I uninstalled it after a few minutes. Tried sending some messages. I could read/recieve but it refused to send.
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  664. Licaon_Kter Then something else must have been at fault
  665. menel Maybe it was still fetching omemo keys or something.. I tried it as you said that and there was everything ok. And I don't think the code thst touches writing messages is any different from conversations/blabber/ _all the forks_
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  690. thndrbvr Hello?
  691. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: ?
  692. thndrbvr Hello? Testing with Snikket.
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  703. menel xmpp:general@channels.snikket.org?join thndrbvr
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  710. thndrbvr Anyway. I feel like I've got a mystery on my hands. I can't register an account on my server. Metronome is running. The error logs aren't showing anything. I'm not seeing anything useful in the regular logs. Luac doesn't report anything wrong in the config. The DNS should be correct.
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  714. menel I see you already found the metronome muc. I suppose you need to have patience that someone that knows metronome can awnser
  715. thndrbvr Sorry, wasn't sure if someone here knew something that could help. It's stressful running into so many issues setting things up. (not just with the XMPP server)
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  718. menel prosody and ejabberd works for most very good. Don't know about metronome.
  719. menel Try snikket server seriously. Its complete automatic everything
  720. tom menel: nah
  721. tom There's always a bunch of scripts to setup prosody automagiclly too
  722. tom And there are ""turnkey""" linux isos
  723. tom The problem is, while that works for like a proof of concept or demonstration, I wouldn't actually want my main server or something i rely on setup the way it is in automated scripts or turnkey isos do
  724. tom I don't have any problem with reading some documentation to understand, then typing out a config file
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  727. tom If you can't do that as the bare minimum, you probably shouldn't be hosting a xmpp server
  728. tom When the incompetently run transient XMPP servers eventually have problems (and they always do) it makes XMPP as a whole look bad
  729. tom It also gives decentralization as a whole look bad to the computer illiterates if all they've ever used are like, the transient mastodon servers that die or have their domain registration laspse or tls certs after a few months or a year
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  731. thndrbvr What I like about Metronome is the wide support for XEPs and microblogging related stuff as it's being used with GNU Social (and PeerTube and JSXC). I'm not seeing a list of supported XEPs or much of any information, really, on Snikket's site.
  732. thndrbvr I like Snikket's goals. Once they get there and are more mature it'd be worth looking into.
  733. tom Oh, microblogging with XMPP is something i'm really curious about, however I've yet to see some actual client software that isn't some god-awfull clusterfuck of javascript that shouldn't exist
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  735. tom And a native client
  736. thndrbvr Lol
  737. tom Not just another piece of shit shoe-horned into a web browser that will only ever work with google chrome and maybe firefox
  738. thndrbvr One day when I win the lottery they'll be one. :)
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  741. tom /Unironically/
  742. menel xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join A better place to talk about all this. Its offtopic here
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  744. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: Snikket is prosody...you don't find what?
  745. thndrbvr Oh, right. I thought it was a modified fork of it. Like, we know that Snikket is XMPP with a Prosody server but snikket.org doesn't seem to mention that nor point to any real documentation.
  746. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: read the blogpost already
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  749. tom I read the post, I just disagree with it
  750. tom Strongly
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  753. tom » <thndrbvr> One day when I win the lottery they'll be one. :) let me know when you do that thndrbvr, I'd love to try it out
  754. tom ;3
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  775. thndrbvr » let me know when you do that thndrbvr, I'd love to try it out An XMPP based microblog application. What if that were based on something like a modern Choqok or Dianara? Something that already handles federated microblog accounts.
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  890. xorman Movim uses Metronome too?
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  899. moparisthebest > Just imagine if google corporation called their email service "the gmail network" Isn't that exactly the case ?
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  903. moparisthebest Snikket isn't trying to market to existing XMPP users, it's trying to get new people on board, so it shouldn't bring up confusing things like XEPs and such
  904. jonas’ thndrbvr, fwiw, what moparisthebest says is true. Also Snikket isn’t using a forked prosody, it is using prosody with modules from prosody-modules and very few lines of additional module code for some specific things, such as handling server upgrades in-place and checking for updates
  905. jonas’ you can go and see for yourself: https://github.com/snikket-im/snikket-server/
  906. jonas’ and I think that the moment Snikket starts to advertise any XEP, it has lost :)
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  910. moparisthebest Think about it this way, any normal XMPP server can be used for family/friends chat, or work chat, teams chat, iot stuff, public server for anything, it's very flexible and has infinite setup combinations, that also makes it rather complicated
  911. moparisthebest Snikket is for chat between family and friends period, anything else, go with another server
  912. moparisthebest This let's them focus on making it perfect for it's one use case
  913. jonas’ "one tool for one job" kind of
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  925. Licaon_Kter xorman: > Movim uses Metronome too? ejabberd
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  1130. Link Mauve “08:53:45 tom> It's also kind of shady in that XMPP is not forfront, for example jitsi talked about XMPP but there's still no way I know of to talk to a jiti user with my xmpp client”, you just have to join the same MUC with both clients.
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  1156. Wiktor Link Mauve: too bad it's not integrated more tightly... https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6235#issuecomment-617278152
  1157. Link Mauve Wiktor, what do you mean?
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  1161. moparisthebest Jitsi: interop through embedding our iframe only
  1162. moparisthebest Nice open standard you got there
  1163. Wiktor Link Mauve: what moparisthebest said
  1164. Link Mauve Except that’s only what they support, not what they can do.
  1165. moparisthebest Sure if you are willing to reverse engineer everything, they don't change it, and they don't actively block you or file a DMCA complaint
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  1170. Link Mauve moparisthebest, err, it’s a simple MUC. :|
  1171. Link Mauve And the voice and video part are standard Jingle on top of that.
  1172. moparisthebest All I know is what that issue says, they refuse to do any xmpp-based interop, they want anything else to embed their iframe or nothing
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  1211. Wiktor Link Mauve: do you have any docs on that? Also what's the source of your claim? Did you check it? Just curious hope you don't mind me asking :)
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  1213. Link Mauve No ; looking at the XMPP exchanges between Jitsi Meet and Prosody, and subsequently running poezio alongside ; yes.
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  1222. Wiktor Great. Thanks for your insights!
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  1230. Holger Right, I keep joining Jitsi Conference rooms (on ejabberd, i.e. no hidden custom Jitsi modules) in order to make the conference persistent and enable MUC MAM and stuff.
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  1232. Wiktor What are the namespaces of their jingle stuff that they post to the MUC? I assume it's something custom as IIUC the video bridge is the participant that is being called.
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  1234. Link Mauve Wiktor, normal Jingle.
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  1237. Link Mauve It’s the jicofo which broadcasts the Jingle stuff.
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  1240. Wiktor I thought normal jingle is via normal messages not muc groupchat ones? Or it doesn't matter?
  1241. Link Mauve Wiktor, Jingle lets you advertise any RTP endpoint, it doesn’t have to be the one in your client, that’s how jicofo advertises jitsi-videobridge’s endpoints.
  1242. Link Mauve Doesn’t matter.
  1243. Wiktor Understood, thanks for the explanation Link Mauve.
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  1245. Wiktor Seems simple enough to adjust already working jingle clients to this scenario. (assuming basic features, nothing fancy)
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  1252. Licaon_Kter Holger: > to make the conference persistent and enable MUC MAM and stuff. Why?
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  1260. Wiktor Licaon_Kter: supposedly to read the chat backlog later? (if any)
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  1278. Holger Right, we typically want persistent (and password protected) rooms with MAM chat logs at work.
  1279. Holger But yes the A/V-conference-specific communication has non-standard bits now.
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  1282. Holger I.e. you no longer can implement an alternative Meet client or server just by reading XEP-0340.
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  1304. Wiktor Thanks for clarification Holger. That was my impression but I didn't look at the XML console.
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  1344. Licaon_Kter Holger: > Right, we typically want persistent (and password protected) rooms with MAM chat logs at work. Oh, this is an answer to the "first one in" is a Moderator issue? By making the room password protected as a normal room there's no need to join first
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  1353. Holger Partly. It makes sure no unrelated atracker will take over your room. But if that persistent room is empty, whoever rejons it first is the admin.
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  1356. Holger I.e. it doesn't help teachers make sure their pupils won't take over.
  1357. Licaon_Kter Mmm
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  1363. Licaon_Kter > Jitsi: interop through embedding our iframe only > Nice open standard you got there It's called EIFaaS _(EmbeddedIFrame-as-a-Service), mmmkay :) > https://developer.8x8.com/jaas/docs 😉
  1364. Licaon_Kter > Jitsi: interop through embedding our iframe only > Nice open standard you got there It's called EIFaaS _(EmbeddedIFrame-as-a-Service)_, mmmkay :) > https://developer.8x8.com/jaas/docs 😉
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  1374. tom That is bullshit
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  1401. Holger Presumably that's what they're paid for, whereas nobody pays for updating the XEP.
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  1496. jonas’ Link Mauve, curious. when I looked into adding a (text only) bot to a jitsi room, jicofo crashed right after it joined.
  1497. jonas’ I then went on to write some mod_firewall rules to hide the bots presence, that works just fine now.
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  1552. moparisthebest That seems like a pretty bad bug in jicofo right?
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  1580. tom Possibly intentional? Or at least intentionally WONTFIX
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  1589. Sam that is certainly not intentional or WONTFIX
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  1627. thndrbvr <Licaon_Kter> Holger: > to make the conference persistent and enable MUC MAM and stuff. Why? Have you heard of Clubhouse? It's vulture capital funded voice chatrooms.
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  1633. tom » vulture capital funded LMAO
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  1665. Licaon_Kter thndrbvr: and?
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  1679. Holger > when I looked into adding a (text only) bot to a jitsi room, jicofo crashed right after it joined. Didn't run into this, but then Meet shows non-Meet clients as participants with broken cam so you might want to hide their presence anyway.
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