XMPP Service Operators - 2021-03-22


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  330. Link Mauve jonas’, never encountered that, did you report it?
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  332. Martin Reporting to jitsi-meet is quite pointless as they will throw away all your efforts for the report by stalebotting…
  333. jonas’ Link Mauve, no, never bothered. I don’t want to interact with a discourse nor did the issue tracker seem really open to reports of non-(jits-)standard use.
  334. jonas’ Link Mauve, no, never bothered. I don’t want to interact with a discourse nor did the issue tracker seem really open to reports of non-(jitsi-)standard use.
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  336. tom Martin: what is stalebotting
  337. Martin If they do not touch that issue for weeks or so it'll be automatically be closed by a bot which makes it a "won't fix" -> closed.
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  339. tom So they are WONTFIXing interoperability issues
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  341. Martin So if it's something which they do not consider important enough to take immediate action your issue get's automatically closed.
  342. Martin Which is kind of a slap in your face as you took time to report and then it's not even a human telling you they won't fix it but just a bot which closes after time x has passed.
  343. jonas’ yep
  344. jonas’ I am immediately discouraged from reporting when I see such a staleclose bot
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  351. Link Mauve Oh right, I’ve seen that on other projects which I definitely avoid to contribute to.
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  354. Link Mauve I didn’t know they did too. :|
  355. Licaon_Kter Martin: > Which is kind of a slap in your face as you took time to report and then it's not even a human telling you they won't fix it but just a bot which closes after time x has passed. That depends You took time because you wanted It's kinda odd to force them to do something now just because... Better use the forum
  356. Martin I don't want to force them to implement it and I am okay with "sorry, not on our roadmap, I'll close it" but stalebotting is something which I really don't like.
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  358. Martin And I might use a proper forum but not that disgust thing.
  359. Martin Anyway, you don't need to convince me of something, I just don't bother them with bug reports or ideas so they are not annoyed by me and I'm not annoyed by the stalebot → win-win.
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  365. jonas’ they don’t seem to have a stalebot though
  366. jonas’ looking at issues like https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/8049
  367. Licaon_Kter They don't need a stalebot to...ignore :))
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  369. Licaon_Kter Eg. Look at the dates https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-sctp/pull/3 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-srtp/pull/12 These were needed for arm64 or CentOS6
  370. Licaon_Kter Eg. Look at the dates https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-sctp/pull/3 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-srtp/pull/12 These were/are needed for arm64 or CentOS6
  371. Licaon_Kter Or this one, 2017!!!! https://github.com/jitsi/lib-jitsi-meet/issues/512 And they "forget" to push tags https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6418
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  380. jl4 > What I like about Metronome is the wide support for XEPs and microblogging related stuff as it's being used with GNU Social (and PeerTube and JSXC). I'm not seeing a list of supported XEPs or much of any information, really, on Snikket's site. i had some doubts, probably wrong ones... is Metronome an active project ?
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  383. Licaon_Kter Is Marandaav an active human?
  384. Licaon_Kter Is Maranda an active human?
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  421. thndrbvr Ji4 Metronome is very active. xmpp:grimoire@muc.metronome.im?join Some of the website documentation was just updated yesterday, even!
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  463. tom I really strongly disagree with mattj's snicket initiative. I get it, advertise it in a shady way like the techbros do to see if it's gets more popular, but it misses something. The big tech platforms aren't popular BECAUSE they advertise in a shady way, they are popular because most of their budget _IS_ advertising
  464. tom Discord is a piece of shit and everyone knew it from day one, but they payed a bunch of youtube "influencers" to shill it nonstop
  465. tom Same thing for nordvpn
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  470. jonas’ tom: watch your language
  471. tom What? Which word?
  472. tom Crap?
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  474. tom The other thing about it is because that's who they choose to pay to shill, their platform is mostly filled with little kids and morons
  475. tom And it's kind of gained a reputation for that
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  483. MattJ FWIW I don't care too much about people in this community liking or not liking Snikket, since it's not aimed at existing XMPP users (many are mostly happy with the status quo of the XMPP ecosystem)
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  485. MattJ Just as I'm happily using my console client, even though Snikket is not likely to ever have one :)
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  490. MattJ And apart from advertising (FWIW Snikket does not do paid advertising) there are real UX issues that need solving, such as XMPP being close to unusable on iOS (a situation that is thankfully improving)
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  492. MattJ But many people here probably hate Apple, and think people should move to Linux phones before switching away from proprietary messaging silos
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  501. Martin MattJ: I admire your patience, I would just have said "You don't have to agree…"
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  503. thndrbvr But tom, one thing to consider here is how non-techies will be communicating IRL or even between each other online. They will call it by it's brand name and there is one uniform application to use across platforms. Both arguments have merrit. Time will tell if the group behind Snikket loses their way or buys what some vulture capitalist feeds them and decides at the time that the money given to the project will overall be more beneficial. Not everyone/thing that sells out /gets bought out does so without regard to what they started. Often, they're reassured that their vision and wishes will remain. Just look at all the BS that happens in the music industry to everyone below the top 10% most popular artists. The industry promises them all these things, signs contracts, and afterwards the artists get screwed one way or another. I'm sure the same exact thing happens all the time with software. I.e. last.fm ???
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  505. tom You make a good argument thndrbvr, but in my experience non-techies usually ask their techie friends for their advice.
  506. MattJ thndrbvr, the legal structure behind the Snikket org intentionally has no shares, and is therefore incompatible with the VC fundraising route
  507. Licaon_Kter tom: > You make a good argument thndrbvr, but in my experience non-techies usually ask their techie friends for their advice. Or they don't because WA is so easy so why bother with Snikkets or Siskins? _I know better than the paranoid techie_
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  512. tom MattJ: I'm curious; What do you think of Purism's marketing?
  513. Licaon_Kter > thndrbvr, the legal structure behind the Snikket org intentionally has no shares, and is therefore incompatible with the VC fundraising route It's anonymous donors all the way down... :)
  514. thndrbvr If they have any. Most "techies" these days are "gamers" who use discord. Lol. To most, a "techy" these days isn't someone who's generally a computer/GNU+Linux/FLOSS/hacker/etc enthusiast. It's just someone who can swap out a video card and set up a WiFi network.
  515. Wiktor > _I know better than the paranoid techie_ Not sure if your friends really talk like that but in general I see people just don't care about privacy/security etc.
  516. tom That is sadly true thndrbvr
  517. tom A large portion does care Wiktor, they just are suffering from defeatism and think privacy is some unrealisticlly unobtainable thing or idealistic and not practical
  518. thndrbvr Wiktor: People do often say they care but can't be bothered to truly do anything about it. So many people feel defeated and overwhelmed because these evils are so prevelent.
  519. tom So they give in
  520. tom Also
  521. MattJ tom, I'm not very familiar with their marketing. Their homepage looks okay.
  522. thndrbvr People don't know where or how to begin and are often so entrenched that much of their information is already out there. It's their kids we have to save XD
  523. Wiktor good points. In my experience people would use "the snikkets and siskins" if they were reliable. Unfortunately the gold standard of Conversations seems to be still unmatched on other platforms (from my friends experience from 2020, yours may vary) :)
  524. tom When they get swindled and tricked by fake privacy initiatives like firefox that claim how they are so anti "big browser" and "the little guys" whatnot, but then find out just how much telemetry is in firefox
  525. tom » <MattJ> tom, I'm not very familiar with their marketing. Their homepage looks okay. Snicket kinda reminds me of Purism vs Pinephone's marketing
  526. thndrbvr I'm still waiting for Purism to finish setting up their XMPP server.... They got Matrix-Synapse running and forked a client. I think they're waiting for Chatty to fully support everything? Never used it.
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  528. tom Are they going to? I see a lot of negative comments directed towards them on the fediverse (activitypub) over that
  529. tom Going with matrix
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  531. tom Or PopOS
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  534. MattJ tom, I personally follow Pine64's projects more closely (I was a backer of their initial SBC crowdfunding, long before Pinephone became a thing)
  535. thndrbvr Doesn't Firefox handle most of it's own telemetry? And not share anything with anyone. I don't have much problem with that but, that's also because I feel like my browser setup and usage is a bit atypical so naturally I think it's the best and want them to make my way the default :P
  536. tom Purism has their own competing thing with the pinephone, their own privacy phone
  537. tom But it's priced more in line with an iphone competitor than the pinephone
  538. thndrbvr Disclaimer: I pre-ordered the L5 USA. I'm stoked.
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  540. thndrbvr I think the Librem One promo video they made is amusing. They seem genuine with what they're doing. Pretty stubborn about keeping things... Pure. Open hardwre, open software, open protocols. They're losing a lot of money on software development and hardware testing to make it happen. At this point, I just hope they stay in business. COVID sux0rz.
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  542. tom thndrbvr: no, https://spyware.neocities.org/articles/firefox.html
  543. tom Pings out to google
  544. thndrbvr So, that explains the forks.
  545. tom There's also the organizational problems written up here https://digdeeper.neocities.org/ghost/mozilla.html
  546. tom Yes i'm sure you can hack up a version with patches and user.jses but the point is they market themselves as a privacy respecting product, and then they do all that
  547. thndrbvr They get, what? 300,000,000 $US from Google? That kind of money tends to make most people feel like they owe someone something.
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  550. tom And firefox by default is absolutely NOT private
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  554. thndrbvr So what do you think about Brave, then?
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  559. tom It's just reskinned google chromium with their own spying added on top
  560. jonas’ is there anything except "firefox" and "reskinned google chromium" out there?
  561. thndrbvr Yeah, Falkon and Epiphany from KDE and GNOME respectively.
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  565. thndrbvr Oh, Otter Browser I think is something else. Supposed to be like Opera was. Qutebrowser I think is another one if you're familiar with Vi keyboard shortcuts. Does Palemoon count? Forked from FF many years ago and has been growing in it's own direction with some compatibility for old style addons.
  566. jonas’ thndrbvr, falkon is built on QtWebEngine, which is Chromium
  567. jonas’ thndrbvr, falkon is built on QtWebEngine, which is hte Chromium engine
  568. tom » <jonas’> is there anything except "firefox" and "reskinned google chromium" out there? There's Netsurf
  569. jonas’ so it hinges on googles support at least
  570. tom Links2
  571. tom Xlinks2
  572. tom And text browsers like w3m, lynx
  573. tom There's also dillo, but it's a bit weird
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  575. tom » <thndrbvr> Yeah, Falkon and Epiphany from KDE and GNOME respectively. With an asterisk. Those are "QT WebEngine" which is Google Chromium with QT's own sauce
  576. thndrbvr Brave you don't have to share data. Most stuff is done locally. They also don't share any information and seem to do a good job anonymizing data they do receive and I think they delete it after a short period.
  577. tom Otter browser is qt webkit or qt webengine
  578. tom Webkit at least isn't google chromium
  579. tom It's more closely related to apple safari
  580. tom Which is based on KHTML
  581. jonas’ the webkit integration of Qt is dead
  582. tom People keep saying that but it's not like it's stopped existing
  583. thndrbvr And last I heard Chromium had about 90% market share. So. Really, our best bet is to help Mozilla not go out of business because then the big G have a monopoly on the Internet even more so.
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  585. tom Then we've lost thndrbvr if Mozilla Corporation is our best bet
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  587. tom Mozilla can go and die. They have been dead to me since 52.9ESR
  588. tom A pathetic excuse for freedom and user agency in the web
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  590. thndrbvr That's what I'm saying. And my other point is that goog and microshaft and others are big contributors to mozilla. If they had more funding from The People and smaller orgs then they'd have more standing power. If the big G decides to pull funding, that alone would be devastating.
  591. tom Sorry, so negative. Probably off topic by now. Good chat nontheless
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  593. thndrbvr That's nice but realistically speaking it'd be godsawful if they did die. How long do we have to wait and watch the world collaspse with proprietary, centralized software before alternatives can take over?
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  595. tom But thndrbvr, Mozilla has betrayed their user's trust and alienated their loyal users
  596. tom They don't even try to be their own thing anymore, they just try to imitate chrome
  597. thndrbvr In some ways yes. In others, I like the things they're doing with containers that now also containerize cookies etc. That and the build in malware and tracker blocking. It may not be as heavy handed as some addons but it doesn't have to be. I think those things are great for protecting mainstream users.
  598. tom Part of me only thinks the only reason google is still around is so they can point the Mozilla and say "look, we have competition" when congress comes knocking; but the reality is Google pulls Mozilla by a leash around the neck. The W3C died with HTML5 and encrypted media extensions breaking their 30+ year tradition of only standardizing by consensus and what Mozilla does now is just play catchup or replicate chrome
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  600. tom thndrbvr: they COULD have fixed the issue of third part cookies for DECADES NOW
  601. tom Go look up the many RFC revisions for cookies for that story
  602. tom Thanks to netscape, and mozilla's refusal to fix their implementation of cookies (third party cookies were never supposed to be a thing) gave birth to a lot of the tracking widespread today
  603. tom » That and the build in malware and tracker blocking. I except they whitelist a large swatch of tracking and ad networks
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  605. thndrbvr I really don't know what vanilla chromium is like so I can't comment but I'm not sure it's all imitation. Some things are just things to be developed into a browser and I wouldn't be surprized if the devs from one are talking to the other about stuff, sharing ideas. And users are sending the same messages to both.
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  607. tom https://web.archive.org/web/20200411051257/https://disconnect.me/trackerprotection/unblocked
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  609. thndrbvr Yeah, like I said, I don't think it should be expected that a mainstream browser flatout blocks all ads. They are a valid way of monetizing a website. It's just a matter of how they're being done. I.e. a self-hosted thing maybe with Adzark or regular banners + links would be acceptable as no data is collected and shared. That doesn't need to be blocked. As someone who is slowly building a social network, I plan on having ads by community members & bands. I need to make money because it costs a whole lot to run a site with a social network, chat, music, etc
  610. MattJ Hey, as noted, this conversation is now particularly off-topic... if anyone has suggestions for a better venue for this discussion, feel free to suggest it
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  616. tom thndrbvr: lets continue this chat some other time somewhere else
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  625. Licaon_Kter The Offtopic room was mentioned before
  626. tom What is it again?
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  633. Ellenor Malik Wait. what? Jitsi DMCA's you if you competitively interoperate?
  634. jonas’ nobody said that
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  645. Sam Somebody did say that, but they're wrong.
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  647. Sam Or suggested that they might anyways, but it's nosense.
  648. tom » competitively interoperate what a world we live in where this is neccecary
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  678. steven people experiencing any issues with hetzner?
  679. steven hetzner robot websites is not loading here (Portugal) and my server is also inaccessible
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  683. jonas’ I’m writing you from a box at hetzner via an XMPP server running on another box at hetnzer
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  688. MattJ Hetzner server up, logged into Robot ok
  689. steven hmm, strange
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  695. Licaon_Kter Fire?
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  697. jonas’ probably some international routing issue
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  702. tom Cool
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  704. tom Space pirates
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  781. steven hmm, Robot is back up but the server doesn't respond to pings, so something is quite off 😕 perhaps the SSD failed. my first hetzner machine, just been online for 2 weeks ,would be quite unlucky :| I got it from the auction though
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  788. Licaon_Kter Auction?
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  792. moparisthebest Licaon_Kter, best way to get really good deals on real dedicated servers https://www.hetzner.com/sb
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  794. moparisthebest I ran one for years, it was great, occasionally a hard drive would fail and they'd replace it promptly and I'd only need a reboot (ran software raid)
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  799. moparisthebest when I needed significantly less resources I downgraded to their "cloud" (VPS) offering, after some rough initial bumps, it's been fine too
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  866. steven I know this is off topic here, but Hetzner gave me a KVM console but it doesn't seem to run in any ofthe browsers I have (firefox with ublock, chromium, google chrome stable, firefox without ublock)
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  869. steven The documentation says I need Java to run the KVM Console, but I just get a black screen saying nothing about Java and I have several Java versions installed on my computer. I didn't know Java in the browser was still a thing.. Does anyne have experience with the KVM consoles?
  870. Sam Is this an old school applet? Try icedtea. I think that's what I've used then just downloaded them and run them locally in the past
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  872. jonas’ steven, you might want to try the rescue system instead, it grants SSH access. but you’ll have to mount the disks manually then… syslog is still oftentimes useful then
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  877. steven yeah well I just saw the "order manual harware reset" option and then I got the e-mail about the KVM console. I didn't really know such a console existed 😀 but it seems useful to be able to login into the system
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