XMPP Service Operators - 2021-04-20

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  10. moparisthebest Unless you run the server :)
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  117. jonas’ ... or get a bcc of all the o.j.n alert for that server in your inbox ;)
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  130. Ge0rG jonas’: any chance for a custom per-host timeout setting?
  131. Ge0rG maybe upping it to 60s will get rid of most of the alerts? :D
  132. jonas’ ehh... yes probably
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  134. jonas’ is a bit of development work though, and I’ll have to look into it closely
  135. jonas’ the entire stack involves a lot of regexes
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  153. Martin vax.im?
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  155. Wiktor hahaha
  156. Ge0rG 😢
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  164. jonas’ :D
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  182. tom » <Ge0rG> jonas’: any chance for a custom per-host timeout setting? In prosody? I don't think so
  183. tom That wouldn't fix the error 404 and 500s though
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  192. Ge0rG tom: yax.im is an xmpp server, where are you receiving 404s and 500s from?
  193. tom Yes
  194. Ge0rG No?
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  196. jonas’ Ge0rG, reminer about code="" attribute on <error/> in RFC 6120
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  198. tom I said yes
  199. tom When i try to join mucs
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  203. tom Medical Uterus Clefting
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  205. Ge0rG tom: could you please kindly provide a clear and concise error description?
  206. tom Sorry is that not clear?
  207. tom I could provide a screenshot
  208. tom https://cdn.nuegia.net/6c996e18-c81f-45af-85e8-aae391cf2310/screenshot_005.png
  209. tom This is all I see client side
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  211. Ge0rG tom: which date and which MUC?
  212. Ge0rG also which time zone
  213. tom Which muc is kind of sensitive i'd rather not say in public
  214. tom Pacific
  215. tom PST
  216. tom Or PDT
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  218. Ge0rG tom: do you have raw XML of the errors?
  219. Ge0rG Are those even from yax.im or from your server?
  220. tom No, it doesn't happen predictably
  221. tom My server doesn't use error codes
  222. tom Not that i'm aware of
  223. tom I thought that was a legacy thing
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  225. Ge0rG Yes, error codes are a legacy thing. Are you using a legacy client?
  226. tom No
  227. Ge0rG Are you using pidgin?
  228. tom No
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  230. Ge0rG What *are* you using?
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  232. Wiktor isn't this some kind of Psi derivative?
  233. Ge0rG So we have a legacy error message with zero details from an unknown source at a time where only the minute is known. This is not something I can debug, sorry, tom
  234. Ge0rG 404 seems to be a legacy mapping of "server not found", but it lacks detail on which server misses which other server.
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  236. tom Psi+
  237. tom Psi+ is not a derivative of psi it's the rolling release version
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  239. Ge0rG Well, `code` is RFC3920 and has been deprecated in 2011.
  240. Ge0rG You might want to raise this issue with the psi+ developers
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  253. Martin > Yeh, Psi+ supports a lot of deprecated things and does not support some of new ones... 🙂
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  261. tom I wish there were more people to help rion
  262. tom It's a lot to implement a committee's standards all on your one
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  264. Martin It's a one man show?
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  266. Ge0rG yaxim is a one-quarter-of-a-man show, and it manages to show readable error messages.
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  268. Martin To he fair he got more noise in his issue tracker.
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  284. tom Yeah but it doesn't support nearly as many features, and it's not a computer program it's an app
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  341. antranigv It’s 2021 and there’s still mo reliable XMPP client on iOS.
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  343. jonas’ yet :)
  344. antranigv s/mo/no
  345. antranigv Tell me more :)))
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  347. moparisthebest to be fair, there have been over the years but Apple keeps silently changing things to break them
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  350. Licaon_Kter antranigv: the clients are reliable, when opened in foreground...all are...but...
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  375. MattJ Snikket iOS + Snikket server works fine when it's in the background :)
  376. MattJ (*small print: except MUC mentions)
  377. MattJ (*small print: except MUC)
  378. MattJ It's one of those "XMPP on iOS would be great if only it could <X>"
  379. MattJ and as soon as you implement X, it becomes Y
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  382. Martin It'll end at Z?
  383. MattJ It will cycle to AA, AB, AC, ... like Excel
  384. MattJ It will end at message bubbles
  385. Ge0rG Message Bubbles. The most anticipated feature of yaxim!
  386. Wiktor MattJ: last time I checked the X Y and Zs were really basic stuff like getting messages when not using the app (aka push messages) or MAM being disabled by default
  387. MattJ Both of those are fixed in Snikket iOS
  388. Martin Just today in a german MUC: People won't use xmpp as it doesn't have video messages and a/v conferences…
  389. octagon Does the client have to reconnect to the server on every open?
  390. MattJ octagon, on iOS, yes
  391. Wiktor But Snikket on iOS is Snikket not "XMPP on iOS" in my books (as you can't use it with any JID)
  392. octagon Because it requires the host server to connect to apple pn?
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  396. MattJ octagon, when an iOS app is not in the foreground it is completely stopped by iOS, there's no way to stay connected. So to receive messages it needs push notifications (via Apple), and it needs to connect to the XMPP server when you reopen it
  397. octagon that is awful aggressive
  398. MattJ It's what's "best for users"
  399. MattJ Apple knows
  400. Wiktor The same goes for Android where Google has the same kind of component (using FCM).
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  405. MattJ There are more workarounds on Android (at least currently)
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  409. Martin MattJ: > Both of those are fixed in Snikket iOS Enough slimy marketing!!1!
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  411. Martin > Does the client have to reconnect to the server on every open? Monal does, Siskin doesn't.
  412. MattJ Martin, other way around?
  413. MattJ and technically Monal does reconnect, but it resumes the same session
  414. moparisthebest so if an iOS XMPP client could keep the underlying connection open across being killed, that would improve things quite a bit ?
  415. MattJ It would, but the point is that it can't :)
  416. moparisthebest it can... with QUIC :)
  417. MattJ If the app is killed, it's not running, it can't react to incoming traffic
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  419. MattJ What you're proposing is essentially resumption at a different layer, right?
  420. moparisthebest yes, still would need the push notification to wake it up, but resumption should be significantly faster
  421. MattJ and where is the traffic stored while the app is not running?
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  423. eta how's that different from smacks resumption
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  425. MattJ I think XMPP-over-QUIC is interesting, and I'm glad someone is experimenting with it, but I don't immediately see it as a solution for this problem
  426. Wiktor I can't help to notice that you've drunk some serious QUIC kool aid moparisthebest :)
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  428. moparisthebest eta, you just don't have to do any of that, no new TCP/TLS negotiation or anything, you just use the already-open QUIC connection you already have
  429. eta moparisthebest, right, but the problem is that you can't suspend a connection forever because that uses RAM etc. on the server's end
  430. eta (especially since it has to queue up messages)
  431. moparisthebest same with smacks I guess, just a different level, you still need push notifications etc certainly
  432. Ellenor Malik :3
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  434. mimi89999 Who is running XoQ?
  435. moparisthebest Wiktor, I just think it has some real efficiency benefits especially for mobile XMPP, where jumping between networks and sleeping happens constantly
  436. rob > Message Bubbles. The most anticipated feature of yaxim! What's this now?
  437. moparisthebest XMPP handles that really well with smacks etc, but it's much better to just stay connected
  438. Wiktor moparisthebest: but but but... It's a Trojan horse from google! Like... Like chrome!
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  440. moparisthebest yea... I think they did bad by keeping the QUIC name, that old bad google-QUIC is dead, this is good ietf-QUIC
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  447. Martin > Martin, other way around? Was thinking about push. 😂
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  462. jonas’ moparisthebest: quic is in userland. your quic session is as dead as the normal tcp xmpp session would be when iOS kills the app.
  463. moparisthebest jonas’, you persist the state to disk ?
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  466. jonas’ on every packet you send?
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  468. jonas’ then you don't gain anything, you can do that with tcp/sm already.
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  475. jonas’ moparisthebest, I mean, sure, with persisting QUIC state (if that’s a thing which is possible), you might also gain avoiding redoing the TLS handshake. but persisting stream management is much harder, and when you lose that state.... you are faced with much worse than TLS roundtrips (presence and pep floods)
  476. jonas’ so for the iOS use case, I don’t think that quic buys you all that much
  477. moparisthebest iirc the app isn't simply killed right? it's told to save state and turn off?
  478. jonas’ I’m not sure about that
  479. jonas’ I’m no iOS dev, but what I hear sounds more like SIGKILL than SIGTERM.
  480. moparisthebest I think stream management works still? this is simply a shortcut
  481. moparisthebest if indeed that happens then yea this fixes basically nothing
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  484. Sam Office hours starting in 10 minutes; this week is an intro to the protocol if any operators want to learn about what's going on under the covers of the servers they run! Office Hours starting in 10 minutes! https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
  485. jonas’ dinner time
  486. jonas’ moparisthebest, stream management does generally not work because you don’t get woken up often enough to keep the SM session alive
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  492. rob > Office hours starting in 10 minutes; this week is an intro to the protocol if any operators want to learn about what's going on under the covers of the servers they run! Office Hours starting in 10 minutes! https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv I wish, but work. Will it be recorded?
  493. Sam Yes
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  507. rob Awesome
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  649. thndrbvr > MattJ wrote: > octagon, when an iOS app is not in the foreground it is completely stopped by iOS, there's no way to stay connected. So to receive messages it needs push notifications (via Apple), and it needs to connect to the XMPP server when you reopen it This is why we can't have nice things. Too much malware and badware doing bad things. Only one allowed to spy is the manufacturer and "they're concerned about privacy". Plus, I'm sure it makes fruitco look good on battery life and lower device temps.
  650. thndrbvr It sounds like a good idea for your average shady, tracker-filled proprietary application but, it also significantly reduces the capability of your phone to be used for communication.
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  664. tom thndrbvr: it's not about that, that's just the superficial upfront public excuse. It's about artificially gimping anything that could compete with facetime unless you pay off a bribe in private which only other bigtech corporations can afford
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  666. tom Classic anticompetitive move
  667. tom Like back when Micro$oft vs Stacker Electronics would use undocumented entrypoints into the OS because stacker wouldn't sell them their technology
  668. tom And then sued any company also using those undocumented entrypoints into the os boot to implement transparent disk compression
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