XMPP Service Operators - 2021-05-30

  1. qrpnxz

    what matrix is proposing here is just utter nonsense to me. I literally don't understand it. And frankly I don't even want to because I don't see why it's necessary in the first place.

  2. rob

    > Kris: I mean, considering omemo is a pretty important part of xmpp, I am super angry about mandatory backdoors. What mandatory backdoors?

  3. Эннифер

    rob: the ones govs are pushing for

  4. rob

    Oh I thought something was already decided, I got worried for a second

  5. rob

    I'll just run an 'illegal' server if they do

  6. Arne

    where could we host then?

  7. qrpnxz

    isn't omemo totally client side

  8. Arne


  9. Arne

    there's I also an xep or not?

  10. vanitasvitae

    Arne: a XEP is a standard.

  11. Arne

    ya you're right for sure vanitasvitae

  12. vanitasvitae

    OMEMO encryption happens on the client, the server is used for exchange of key material

  13. rob

    > isn't omemo totally client side It is. The server requires something for it to be passed around by the encryption is entirely client side

  14. rob

    > where could we host then? In my house

  15. qrpnxz

    vanitasvitae, right, but the server doesn't need to know anything about omemo afaik

  16. qrpnxz

    just using PEP for that i think

  17. vanitasvitae

    qrpnxz, yep

  18. rozzin

    You can block OMEMO on the server by blocking the PEP nodes that it uses....

  19. rozzin

    ejabberd was doing that in their example config a few years ago IIRC.

  20. rozzin

    I don't know if they've since removed that.

  21. rozzin

    They'd been having a lot of clueless new admins showing up in their chatroom with troubles from weird interactions between even-more-clueless users' multiple clients (some OMEMO by default, some with no OMEMO, and some with broken or confusing OMEMO implementations).

  22. x0n

    rozzin: I went and looked at all the xmpp transports mentioned after my original question. matterbridge really is not my frst choice TBH even though it looks like a decent enough stop-gap-measure. even in the matrix ecosystem "puppetting bridges" (username spoofing, portal rooms) are considered the bar to measure success of the network-transcending experience by. on their side, there's a promising solution in the works: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost

  23. rozzin

    x0n: this one looks cool, but I don't see any source available...: https://www.isode.com/products/m-link-irc-gateway.html

  24. rozzin

    x0n: I've heard that some public IRC networks/servers have limits on how many different logins are allowed from a single IP? Could make it hard to DTRT in terms of "network-transcending experience".

  25. rozzin

    That would explain why m-link is targetting people wanting migrate to XMPP from *selfhosted* IRC....

  26. x0n

    heh, it's "made for the military". i.e it runs on diesel, its protocol spec involves a high-pressure pneumatic system with the bits encoded in gold dust and viewing it's source code requires TS/SCI clearance

  27. x0n

    yeah, there was a bit of a stink when clueless matrix homeserver admins flooded the IRC networks with bridges they settled on bridging a select few rooms on the major networks from the matrix.org official server IIRC

  28. x0n

    NB: here's the matrix fork I mentioned earlier: https://gitlab.com/thegridprotocol/home/-/blob/master/docs/overview.md looks like they're not in a hurry. at least they apparently have a working server and a working spec now...

  29. Menel

    They could also use.... XMPP instead 🥁 In my prediction that fork will die alone

  30. Anhydrous

    Matrix is malware

  31. x0n

    Well, who knows… The matrix hypetrain does have enough momentum to preclude just going over the cliff. It'd be a great opportunity to present an easy migration path to xmpp ;)

  32. Anhydrous

    Now I'm an optimist

  33. Эннифер

    Can this be a Matrix free safe-space?

  34. x0n

    You realize that the French government adopted the protocol and the German MoD is trying to establish it in the federal govt right now? They will probably try to push it on all of EU near-term. That's when someone's bound to tell them that the protocol doesn't adhere to GPDR… thegrid may just get their shot…

  35. MattJ

    Yeah, I'm fine with this being a Matrix-free safe space

  36. MattJ

    Especially free from statements such as "Matrix is malware"

  37. x0n

    Sorry. I'm actually interested in practical bridging considerations with the matrix network. Good to continue with this?

  38. MattJ

    Yes, that's relevant

  39. MattJ

    Someone can set up rants-about-matrix@somewhere for the other stuff

  40. x0n

    I notice a conspicuous absense of matrix as a transport in public listings of xmpp servers. guess it's safe to assume that cufrently, bridging the networks is simply not happening without matrix doing the heavy lifting?

  41. MattJ

    The only usable bridge right now is bifrost, and it requires deployment alongside a Matrix homeserver

  42. MattJ

    That's what I understood from the dev

  43. x0n

    thanks, that's the same conclusion I've drawn

  44. MattJ

    Understandably most XMPP operators don't want to run a Matrix server (nor do many have the resources), so matrix.org is basically the only live instance that I know of

  45. x0n

    well, synapse is kind of a dumpster fire compared to ejabberd or prosody...

  46. MattJ

    Maybe over time it will become easier (either with new bridge implementations, or easier/lighter homeserver setups)

  47. x0n

    I might look into running construct just for the bridging...

  48. MattJ

    Let us know how that goes :)

  49. x0n

    will do :)

  50. x0n

    since I do plan on getting intimate with the xmpp protocol, who knows... maybe I'll end up with half a transport when the dust has settled... this project of mine seems to multiply in scope every time I touch any relevant documentation 🤢

  51. Anhydrous

    I stick to my guns

  52. x0n

    It's the middle of the pandemic. Quit my job, home alone with govt. imposed curfews and nothing but the project I wanted to work on full time. 'Out of scope' is not in scope

  53. MattJ

    x0n, welcome to the club :)

  54. Licaon_Kter

    x0n: https://web.archive.org/web/20210428085502/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/technology/welcome-to-the-yolo-economy.html

  55. x0n

    Licaon_Kter: close but no cigar. my goals and motivations couldn't be further away from money. also "flush with cash"? I wish :D

  56. Licaon_Kter

    x0n: well, exclude what doesn't apply, YOLO the rest :)

  57. x0n

    no worries, that I can do :D

  58. x0n

    btw if you think "YOLO economy" was outrageous, you (and that times 'journo') are advised to check out /r/fatfire

  59. Licaon_Kter

    x0n: you're projecting a lot about me But we're offtopic

  60. x0n

    sorry, times "articles" agitate me. back on topic: xmpp.js looks like an excellent study object to go with O'Reilly "XMPP The Definitive Guide"

  61. Licaon_Kter

    Iirc strophe.js is like the recommended thing

  62. x0n


  63. x0n

    it's hard to resist a matrix comment reading about xmpp spec details. web*sockets*, not web*rtc*. if ony someone had told them...

  64. 404.city

    > if ony someone had told them... You will prevent them from building their business so much

  65. 404.city

    x0n, The Matrix is ​​a messenger from the category of Signal, Telegram and others. They use federation as a marketing policy, but in reality their federation is not working

  66. x0n

    > 404.city wrote: > x0n, The Matrix is ​​a messenger from the category of Signal, Telegram and others. They use federation as a marketing policy, but in reality their federation is not working Hey, I like Telegram. It works :D I've been running my own synapse for a while and found it hard to swalllow how resource intensive it is for what it does. So here I am, ready to repent and rebuild on proven tech like I should in the first place… Only the bridging situation seems to be even more bleak with xmpp

  67. xorman

    bridging XMPP<>IRC works just fine

  68. x0n

    So you're saying I should look into bridging everything to IRC?

  69. Kris

    Or use Matterbridge with user spoofing

  70. Kris

    works reasonably well via the slack webhooks module on prosody

  71. Kris

    and on IRC with RELAYMSG support

  72. Licaon_Kter

    x0n: > So you're saying I should look into bridging everything to IRC? No, just to avoid Matrix directly Use biboumi or bitlbee for IRC Use matterbridge for others Etc

  73. Kris

    however Matrix bridge users hate the matterbridge, as Matrix by default groups reponses by the same user, which in this case is a relay bot, so it gets quite confusing

  74. Kris

    but I don't really care 😉

  75. Kris

    but the complain everywhere pretending to be IRC users

  76. Licaon_Kter

    > but the complain everywhere pretending to be IRC users This ^^^

  77. x0n

    matterbridge only supports user spoofing in 3 obscure networks doesn't it? I've already filed it under 'last ditch option' ;) I need to bridge xmpp, PRC, telegram and maybe matrix

  78. x0n

    matterbridge only supports user spoofing in 3 obscure networks doesn't it? I've already filed it under 'last ditch option' ;) I need to bridge xmpp, IRC, telegram and maybe matrix

  79. x0n

    more networks are obviously desirable, like discord, WhatsApp, facebook messenger, but those can be second class citizens with matterbridge or purple for all that I care

  80. homebeach

    bridge irc to matrix with utwente

  81. homebeach

    telegram to matrix with t2bo.io

  82. homebeach

    join to room via bifröst

  83. homebeach

    telegram to matrix with t2bot.io

  84. homebeach

    join to room via bifröst from xmpp

  85. Kris

    x0n Matterbridge supports spoofing users n Slack, Discord, Mattermost, IRC (only servers supporting RELAYMSG), XMPP (Prosody) AFAIK, maybe others as well

  86. Licaon_Kter

    https://dev.narayana.im/narayana/zhabogram works, at least for 1:1

  87. Licaon_Kter

    https://dev.narayana.im/narayana/zhabogram works, at least for 1:1 for Telegram

  88. rozzin

    Kris: the docs say "Username spoofing (so it looks like the remote users) only works with webhooks for Discord, Mattermost, Slack."? https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/wiki/Features#username-and-avatar-spoofing

  89. Kris

    irc and prosody are recent additions

  90. Kris

    with caveats

  91. rozzin

    I see: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/blob/master/matterbridge.toml.sample#L317

  92. rozzin

    Mmm... maybe there's a webhook extension for ejabberd? 😆

  93. rozzin

    Though "just conform to whatever interface Slack is using" does not feel like it's likely to be a long-term winning play....

  94. Kris

    sure, I think the plan is to use the Prosody/Snikket RestAP once that hits a stable release

  95. Kris

    it just used what was available rght now

  96. Kris

    no dea if something like that is planned for ejabberd

  97. Kris


  98. x0n

    homebeach, Kris: thanks! gonna take this into cosideration too... I was as of yet undecided on either prosody or ejabberd. from preliminary reading, ejabberd seems to be considered the better of the two by majority vote as of now?

  99. Licaon_Kter

    x0n: the ecosystem is split between the two + some little tigase and openfire

  100. Licaon_Kter

    x0n: one year ago https://nitter.fdn.fr/iNPUTmice/status/1257543944486785030

  101. Kris

    x0n, my take: if you want to scale to a lot of users and otherwise bother little with it Ejabberd. If you only have a few hundred users at most and want to do some bleeding edge stuff and tinker wth it yourself: prosody.

  102. Kris

    both are good

  103. Licaon_Kter

    Eg. Jitsi Meet is targeted to Prosody, so they have all sorts of extra modules While it works fine with ejabberd you don't get that nicer support

  104. Эннифер

    I switched to ejabberd for the catpcha support + Fedora has a confined sepolicy for it

  105. Anhydrous

    Эннифер: +1

  106. Эннифер

    ejabberd also has a built in stun/turn which makes for easier a/v setup

  107. Licaon_Kter

    Эннифер: eturnal works alongside prosody ;)

  108. Alex

    I've had great success with coturn and prosody

  109. Alex


  110. Эннифер

    Is eturnal the same codebase as the built-in ejabberd one?

  111. Licaon_Kter

    Эннифер: yup

  112. Menel

    Even the USA+Canada covid vaxbot still works with prosody. I wonder how it is now after the server upgrade? https://yaxim.org/blog/2021/04/09/vaxbot-performance-challenge/

  113. moparisthebest

    Well it's been discontinued in USA I guess

  114. qrpnxz

    > matterbridge supports spoofing in ... their github issue gave me the idea that they didn't support spoofing anywhere (or in the least not xmpp)

  115. Kris

    qrpnxz, yes 100%, it uses the Slack webhooks module for Prosody right now

  116. qrpnxz


  117. rom1dep

    have you guys heard of galene, https://github.com/jech/galene , as an alternative to jitsi meet?

  118. Licaon_Kter

    All their readme's look like markdown but their extensions are not .md so they are rendered as plaintext with $hitty markup all over...meh

  119. rom1dep

    Licaon_Kter: go file a PR!! ☺️

  120. Licaon_Kter

    Heh, don't get me wrong, they had me at "armv7" :)

  121. rom1dep

    haven't you killed all your RPis by overheating torture yet? :)

  122. Licaon_Kter

    It idle, mostly compiling eturnal, dino, prosody and devilutionx when those get new commits

  123. Licaon_Kter

    It's idle, mostly compiling eturnal, dino, prosody and devilutionx when those get new commits

  124. Licaon_Kter

    Wait...did galene just built in 7 mins on a RPi1? I can't even build Jitsi Meet on 3+ with 1Gb RAM (minus 300 for ejabberd/postgres whatever) anymore ;(

  125. Kris

    rom1dep, but does galene also user XMPP like Jitsi-meet? Doesn't look like it, right?

  126. Licaon_Kter

    eh, can't win them all