-
qrpnxz
what matrix is proposing here is just utter nonsense to me. I literally don't understand it. And frankly I don't even want to because I don't see why it's necessary in the first place.
-
rob
> Kris: I mean, considering omemo is a pretty important part of xmpp, I am super angry about mandatory backdoors. What mandatory backdoors?
-
Эннифер
rob: the ones govs are pushing for
-
rob
Oh I thought something was already decided, I got worried for a second
-
rob
I'll just run an 'illegal' server if they do
-
Arne
where could we host then?
-
qrpnxz
isn't omemo totally client side
-
Arne
no
-
Arne
there's I also an xep or not?
-
vanitasvitae
Arne: a XEP is a standard.
-
Arne
ya you're right for sure vanitasvitae
-
vanitasvitae
OMEMO encryption happens on the client, the server is used for exchange of key material
-
rob
> isn't omemo totally client side It is. The server requires something for it to be passed around by the encryption is entirely client side
-
rob
> where could we host then? In my house
-
qrpnxz
vanitasvitae, right, but the server doesn't need to know anything about omemo afaik
-
qrpnxz
just using PEP for that i think
-
vanitasvitae
qrpnxz, yep
-
rozzin
You can block OMEMO on the server by blocking the PEP nodes that it uses....
-
rozzin
ejabberd was doing that in their example config a few years ago IIRC.
-
rozzin
I don't know if they've since removed that.
-
rozzin
They'd been having a lot of clueless new admins showing up in their chatroom with troubles from weird interactions between even-more-clueless users' multiple clients (some OMEMO by default, some with no OMEMO, and some with broken or confusing OMEMO implementations).
-
x0n
rozzin: I went and looked at all the xmpp transports mentioned after my original question. matterbridge really is not my frst choice TBH even though it looks like a decent enough stop-gap-measure. even in the matrix ecosystem "puppetting bridges" (username spoofing, portal rooms) are considered the bar to measure success of the network-transcending experience by. on their side, there's a promising solution in the works: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost
-
rozzin
x0n: this one looks cool, but I don't see any source available...: https://www.isode.com/products/m-link-irc-gateway.html
-
rozzin
x0n: I've heard that some public IRC networks/servers have limits on how many different logins are allowed from a single IP? Could make it hard to DTRT in terms of "network-transcending experience".
-
rozzin
That would explain why m-link is targetting people wanting migrate to XMPP from *selfhosted* IRC....
-
x0n
heh, it's "made for the military". i.e it runs on diesel, its protocol spec involves a high-pressure pneumatic system with the bits encoded in gold dust and viewing it's source code requires TS/SCI clearance
-
x0n
yeah, there was a bit of a stink when clueless matrix homeserver admins flooded the IRC networks with bridges they settled on bridging a select few rooms on the major networks from the matrix.org official server IIRC
-
x0n
NB: here's the matrix fork I mentioned earlier: https://gitlab.com/thegridprotocol/home/-/blob/master/docs/overview.md looks like they're not in a hurry. at least they apparently have a working server and a working spec now...
-
Menel
They could also use.... XMPP instead 🥁 In my prediction that fork will die alone
-
Anhydrous
Matrix is malware
-
x0n
Well, who knows… The matrix hypetrain does have enough momentum to preclude just going over the cliff. It'd be a great opportunity to present an easy migration path to xmpp ;)
-
Anhydrous
Now I'm an optimist
-
Эннифер
Can this be a Matrix free safe-space?
-
x0n
You realize that the French government adopted the protocol and the German MoD is trying to establish it in the federal govt right now? They will probably try to push it on all of EU near-term. That's when someone's bound to tell them that the protocol doesn't adhere to GPDR… thegrid may just get their shot…
-
MattJ
Yeah, I'm fine with this being a Matrix-free safe space
-
MattJ
Especially free from statements such as "Matrix is malware"
-
x0n
Sorry. I'm actually interested in practical bridging considerations with the matrix network. Good to continue with this?
-
MattJ
Yes, that's relevant
-
MattJ
Someone can set up rants-about-matrix@somewhere for the other stuff
-
x0n
I notice a conspicuous absense of matrix as a transport in public listings of xmpp servers. guess it's safe to assume that cufrently, bridging the networks is simply not happening without matrix doing the heavy lifting?
-
MattJ
The only usable bridge right now is bifrost, and it requires deployment alongside a Matrix homeserver
-
MattJ
That's what I understood from the dev
-
x0n
thanks, that's the same conclusion I've drawn
-
MattJ
Understandably most XMPP operators don't want to run a Matrix server (nor do many have the resources), so matrix.org is basically the only live instance that I know of
-
x0n
well, synapse is kind of a dumpster fire compared to ejabberd or prosody...
-
MattJ
Maybe over time it will become easier (either with new bridge implementations, or easier/lighter homeserver setups)
-
x0n
I might look into running construct just for the bridging...
-
MattJ
Let us know how that goes :)
-
x0n
will do :)
-
x0n
since I do plan on getting intimate with the xmpp protocol, who knows... maybe I'll end up with half a transport when the dust has settled... this project of mine seems to multiply in scope every time I touch any relevant documentation 🤢
-
Anhydrous
I stick to my guns
-
x0n
It's the middle of the pandemic. Quit my job, home alone with govt. imposed curfews and nothing but the project I wanted to work on full time. 'Out of scope' is not in scope
-
MattJ
x0n, welcome to the club :)
-
Licaon_Kter
x0n: https://web.archive.org/web/20210428085502/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/technology/welcome-to-the-yolo-economy.html
-
x0n
Licaon_Kter: close but no cigar. my goals and motivations couldn't be further away from money. also "flush with cash"? I wish :D
-
Licaon_Kter
x0n: well, exclude what doesn't apply, YOLO the rest :)
-
x0n
no worries, that I can do :D
-
x0n
btw if you think "YOLO economy" was outrageous, you (and that times 'journo') are advised to check out /r/fatfire
-
Licaon_Kter
x0n: you're projecting a lot about me But we're offtopic
-
x0n
sorry, times "articles" agitate me. back on topic: xmpp.js looks like an excellent study object to go with O'Reilly "XMPP The Definitive Guide"
-
Licaon_Kter
Iirc strophe.js is like the recommended thing
-
x0n
thanks
-
x0n
it's hard to resist a matrix comment reading about xmpp spec details. web*sockets*, not web*rtc*. if ony someone had told them...
-
404.city
> if ony someone had told them... You will prevent them from building their business so much
-
404.city
x0n, The Matrix is a messenger from the category of Signal, Telegram and others. They use federation as a marketing policy, but in reality their federation is not working
-
x0n
> 404.city wrote: > x0n, The Matrix is a messenger from the category of Signal, Telegram and others. They use federation as a marketing policy, but in reality their federation is not working Hey, I like Telegram. It works :D I've been running my own synapse for a while and found it hard to swalllow how resource intensive it is for what it does. So here I am, ready to repent and rebuild on proven tech like I should in the first place… Only the bridging situation seems to be even more bleak with xmpp
-
xorman
bridging XMPP<>IRC works just fine
-
x0n
So you're saying I should look into bridging everything to IRC?
-
Kris
Or use Matterbridge with user spoofing
-
Kris
works reasonably well via the slack webhooks module on prosody
-
Kris
and on IRC with RELAYMSG support
-
Licaon_Kter
x0n: > So you're saying I should look into bridging everything to IRC? No, just to avoid Matrix directly Use biboumi or bitlbee for IRC Use matterbridge for others Etc
-
Kris
however Matrix bridge users hate the matterbridge, as Matrix by default groups reponses by the same user, which in this case is a relay bot, so it gets quite confusing
-
Kris
but I don't really care 😉
-
Kris
but the complain everywhere pretending to be IRC users
-
Licaon_Kter
> but the complain everywhere pretending to be IRC users This ^^^
-
x0n
matterbridge only supports user spoofing in 3 obscure networks doesn't it? I've already filed it under 'last ditch option' ;) I need to bridge xmpp, PRC, telegram and maybe matrix✎ -
x0n
matterbridge only supports user spoofing in 3 obscure networks doesn't it? I've already filed it under 'last ditch option' ;) I need to bridge xmpp, IRC, telegram and maybe matrix ✏
-
x0n
more networks are obviously desirable, like discord, WhatsApp, facebook messenger, but those can be second class citizens with matterbridge or purple for all that I care
-
homebeach
bridge irc to matrix with utwente
-
homebeach
telegram to matrix with t2bo.io✎ -
homebeach
join to room via bifröst✎ -
homebeach
telegram to matrix with t2bot.io ✏
-
homebeach
join to room via bifröst from xmpp ✏
-
Kris
x0n Matterbridge supports spoofing users n Slack, Discord, Mattermost, IRC (only servers supporting RELAYMSG), XMPP (Prosody) AFAIK, maybe others as well
-
Licaon_Kter
https://dev.narayana.im/narayana/zhabogram works, at least for 1:1✎ -
Licaon_Kter
https://dev.narayana.im/narayana/zhabogram works, at least for 1:1 for Telegram ✏
-
rozzin
Kris: the docs say "Username spoofing (so it looks like the remote users) only works with webhooks for Discord, Mattermost, Slack."? https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/wiki/Features#username-and-avatar-spoofing
-
Kris
irc and prosody are recent additions
-
Kris
with caveats
-
rozzin
I see: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/blob/master/matterbridge.toml.sample#L317
-
rozzin
Mmm... maybe there's a webhook extension for ejabberd? 😆
-
rozzin
Though "just conform to whatever interface Slack is using" does not feel like it's likely to be a long-term winning play....
-
Kris
sure, I think the plan is to use the Prosody/Snikket RestAP once that hits a stable release
-
Kris
it just used what was available rght now
-
Kris
no dea if something like that is planned for ejabberd
-
Kris
*idea
-
x0n
homebeach, Kris: thanks! gonna take this into cosideration too... I was as of yet undecided on either prosody or ejabberd. from preliminary reading, ejabberd seems to be considered the better of the two by majority vote as of now?
-
Licaon_Kter
x0n: the ecosystem is split between the two + some little tigase and openfire
-
Licaon_Kter
x0n: one year ago https://nitter.fdn.fr/iNPUTmice/status/1257543944486785030
-
Kris
x0n, my take: if you want to scale to a lot of users and otherwise bother little with it Ejabberd. If you only have a few hundred users at most and want to do some bleeding edge stuff and tinker wth it yourself: prosody.
-
Kris
both are good
-
Licaon_Kter
Eg. Jitsi Meet is targeted to Prosody, so they have all sorts of extra modules While it works fine with ejabberd you don't get that nicer support
-
Эннифер
I switched to ejabberd for the catpcha support + Fedora has a confined sepolicy for it
-
Anhydrous
Эннифер: +1
-
Эннифер
ejabberd also has a built in stun/turn which makes for easier a/v setup
-
Licaon_Kter
Эннифер: eturnal works alongside prosody ;)
-
Alex
I've had great success with coturn and prosody
-
Alex
https://github.com/coturn/coturn
-
Эннифер
Is eturnal the same codebase as the built-in ejabberd one?
-
Licaon_Kter
Эннифер: yup
-
Menel
Even the USA+Canada covid vaxbot still works with prosody. I wonder how it is now after the server upgrade? https://yaxim.org/blog/2021/04/09/vaxbot-performance-challenge/
-
moparisthebest
Well it's been discontinued in USA I guess
-
qrpnxz
> matterbridge supports spoofing in ... their github issue gave me the idea that they didn't support spoofing anywhere (or in the least not xmpp)
-
Kris
qrpnxz, yes 100%, it uses the Slack webhooks module for Prosody right now
-
qrpnxz
ty
-
rom1dep
have you guys heard of galene, https://github.com/jech/galene , as an alternative to jitsi meet?
-
Licaon_Kter
All their readme's look like markdown but their extensions are not .md so they are rendered as plaintext with $hitty markup all over...meh
-
rom1dep
Licaon_Kter: go file a PR!! ☺️
-
Licaon_Kter
Heh, don't get me wrong, they had me at "armv7" :)
-
rom1dep
haven't you killed all your RPis by overheating torture yet? :)
-
Licaon_Kter
It idle, mostly compiling eturnal, dino, prosody and devilutionx when those get new commits✎ -
Licaon_Kter
It's idle, mostly compiling eturnal, dino, prosody and devilutionx when those get new commits ✏
-
Licaon_Kter
Wait...did galene just built in 7 mins on a RPi1? I can't even build Jitsi Meet on 3+ with 1Gb RAM (minus 300 for ejabberd/postgres whatever) anymore ;(
-
Kris
rom1dep, but does galene also user XMPP like Jitsi-meet? Doesn't look like it, right?
-
Licaon_Kter
eh, can't win them all