XMPP Service Operators - 2021-05-30

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  5. qrpnxz what matrix is proposing here is just utter nonsense to me. I literally don't understand it. And frankly I don't even want to because I don't see why it's necessary in the first place.
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  17. rob > Kris: I mean, considering omemo is a pretty important part of xmpp, I am super angry about mandatory backdoors. What mandatory backdoors?
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  21. Эннифер rob: the ones govs are pushing for
  22. rob Oh I thought something was already decided, I got worried for a second
  23. rob I'll just run an 'illegal' server if they do
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  26. Arne where could we host then?
  27. qrpnxz isn't omemo totally client side
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  34. Arne no
  35. Arne there's I also an xep or not?
  36. vanitasvitae Arne: a XEP is a standard.
  37. Arne ya you're right for sure vanitasvitae
  38. vanitasvitae OMEMO encryption happens on the client, the server is used for exchange of key material
  39. rob > isn't omemo totally client side It is. The server requires something for it to be passed around by the encryption is entirely client side
  40. rob > where could we host then? In my house
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  42. qrpnxz vanitasvitae, right, but the server doesn't need to know anything about omemo afaik
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  45. qrpnxz just using PEP for that i think
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  55. vanitasvitae qrpnxz, yep
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  80. rozzin You can block OMEMO on the server by blocking the PEP nodes that it uses....
  81. rozzin ejabberd was doing that in their example config a few years ago IIRC.
  82. rozzin I don't know if they've since removed that.
  83. rozzin They'd been having a lot of clueless new admins showing up in their chatroom with troubles from weird interactions between even-more-clueless users' multiple clients (some OMEMO by default, some with no OMEMO, and some with broken or confusing OMEMO implementations).
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  86. x0n rozzin: I went and looked at all the xmpp transports mentioned after my original question. matterbridge really is not my frst choice TBH even though it looks like a decent enough stop-gap-measure. even in the matrix ecosystem "puppetting bridges" (username spoofing, portal rooms) are considered the bar to measure success of the network-transcending experience by. on their side, there's a promising solution in the works: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost
  87. rozzin x0n: this one looks cool, but I don't see any source available...: https://www.isode.com/products/m-link-irc-gateway.html
  88. rozzin x0n: I've heard that some public IRC networks/servers have limits on how many different logins are allowed from a single IP? Could make it hard to DTRT in terms of "network-transcending experience".
  89. rozzin That would explain why m-link is targetting people wanting migrate to XMPP from *selfhosted* IRC....
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  91. x0n heh, it's "made for the military". i.e it runs on diesel, its protocol spec involves a high-pressure pneumatic system with the bits encoded in gold dust and viewing it's source code requires TS/SCI clearance
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  93. x0n yeah, there was a bit of a stink when clueless matrix homeserver admins flooded the IRC networks with bridges they settled on bridging a select few rooms on the major networks from the matrix.org official server IIRC
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  112. x0n NB: here's the matrix fork I mentioned earlier: https://gitlab.com/thegridprotocol/home/-/blob/master/docs/overview.md looks like they're not in a hurry. at least they apparently have a working server and a working spec now...
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  188. Menel They could also use.... XMPP instead 🥁 In my prediction that fork will die alone
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  197. Anhydrous Matrix is malware
  198. x0n Well, who knows… The matrix hypetrain does have enough momentum to preclude just going over the cliff. It'd be a great opportunity to present an easy migration path to xmpp ;)
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  200. Anhydrous Now I'm an optimist
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  202. Эннифер Can this be a Matrix free safe-space?
  203. x0n You realize that the French government adopted the protocol and the German MoD is trying to establish it in the federal govt right now? They will probably try to push it on all of EU near-term. That's when someone's bound to tell them that the protocol doesn't adhere to GPDR… thegrid may just get their shot…
  204. MattJ Yeah, I'm fine with this being a Matrix-free safe space
  205. MattJ Especially free from statements such as "Matrix is malware"
  206. x0n Sorry. I'm actually interested in practical bridging considerations with the matrix network. Good to continue with this?
  207. MattJ Yes, that's relevant
  208. MattJ Someone can set up rants-about-matrix@somewhere for the other stuff
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  212. x0n I notice a conspicuous absense of matrix as a transport in public listings of xmpp servers. guess it's safe to assume that cufrently, bridging the networks is simply not happening without matrix doing the heavy lifting?
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  215. MattJ The only usable bridge right now is bifrost, and it requires deployment alongside a Matrix homeserver
  216. MattJ That's what I understood from the dev
  217. x0n thanks, that's the same conclusion I've drawn
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  220. MattJ Understandably most XMPP operators don't want to run a Matrix server (nor do many have the resources), so matrix.org is basically the only live instance that I know of
  221. x0n well, synapse is kind of a dumpster fire compared to ejabberd or prosody...
  222. MattJ Maybe over time it will become easier (either with new bridge implementations, or easier/lighter homeserver setups)
  223. x0n I might look into running construct just for the bridging...
  224. MattJ Let us know how that goes :)
  225. x0n will do :)
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  233. x0n since I do plan on getting intimate with the xmpp protocol, who knows... maybe I'll end up with half a transport when the dust has settled... this project of mine seems to multiply in scope every time I touch any relevant documentation 🤢
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  267. Anhydrous I stick to my guns
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  286. x0n It's the middle of the pandemic. Quit my job, home alone with govt. imposed curfews and nothing but the project I wanted to work on full time. 'Out of scope' is not in scope
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  302. MattJ x0n, welcome to the club :)
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  308. Licaon_Kter x0n: https://web.archive.org/web/20210428085502/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/technology/welcome-to-the-yolo-economy.html
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  331. x0n Licaon_Kter: close but no cigar. my goals and motivations couldn't be further away from money. also "flush with cash"? I wish :D
  332. Licaon_Kter x0n: well, exclude what doesn't apply, YOLO the rest :)
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  334. x0n no worries, that I can do :D
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  338. x0n btw if you think "YOLO economy" was outrageous, you (and that times 'journo') are advised to check out /r/fatfire
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  344. Licaon_Kter x0n: you're projecting a lot about me But we're offtopic
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  348. x0n sorry, times "articles" agitate me. back on topic: xmpp.js looks like an excellent study object to go with O'Reilly "XMPP The Definitive Guide"
  349. Licaon_Kter Iirc strophe.js is like the recommended thing
  350. x0n thanks
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  364. x0n it's hard to resist a matrix comment reading about xmpp spec details. web*sockets*, not web*rtc*. if ony someone had told them...
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  488. 404.city > if ony someone had told them... You will prevent them from building their business so much
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  492. 404.city x0n, The Matrix is ​​a messenger from the category of Signal, Telegram and others. They use federation as a marketing policy, but in reality their federation is not working
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  497. x0n > 404.city wrote: > x0n, The Matrix is ​​a messenger from the category of Signal, Telegram and others. They use federation as a marketing policy, but in reality their federation is not working Hey, I like Telegram. It works :D I've been running my own synapse for a while and found it hard to swalllow how resource intensive it is for what it does. So here I am, ready to repent and rebuild on proven tech like I should in the first place… Only the bridging situation seems to be even more bleak with xmpp
  498. xorman bridging XMPP<>IRC works just fine
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  513. x0n So you're saying I should look into bridging everything to IRC?
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  515. Kris Or use Matterbridge with user spoofing
  516. Kris works reasonably well via the slack webhooks module on prosody
  517. Kris and on IRC with RELAYMSG support
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  526. Licaon_Kter x0n: > So you're saying I should look into bridging everything to IRC? No, just to avoid Matrix directly Use biboumi or bitlbee for IRC Use matterbridge for others Etc
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  528. Kris however Matrix bridge users hate the matterbridge, as Matrix by default groups reponses by the same user, which in this case is a relay bot, so it gets quite confusing
  529. Kris but I don't really care 😉
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  531. Kris but the complain everywhere pretending to be IRC users
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  539. Licaon_Kter > but the complain everywhere pretending to be IRC users This ^^^
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  578. x0n matterbridge only supports user spoofing in 3 obscure networks doesn't it? I've already filed it under 'last ditch option' ;) I need to bridge xmpp, PRC, telegram and maybe matrix
  579. x0n matterbridge only supports user spoofing in 3 obscure networks doesn't it? I've already filed it under 'last ditch option' ;) I need to bridge xmpp, IRC, telegram and maybe matrix
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  581. x0n more networks are obviously desirable, like discord, WhatsApp, facebook messenger, but those can be second class citizens with matterbridge or purple for all that I care
  582. homebeach bridge irc to matrix with utwente
  583. homebeach telegram to matrix with t2bo.io
  584. homebeach join to room via bifröst
  585. homebeach telegram to matrix with t2bot.io
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  591. Kris x0n Matterbridge supports spoofing users n Slack, Discord, Mattermost, IRC (only servers supporting RELAYMSG), XMPP (Prosody) AFAIK, maybe others as well
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  595. Licaon_Kter https://dev.narayana.im/narayana/zhabogram works, at least for 1:1
  596. Licaon_Kter https://dev.narayana.im/narayana/zhabogram works, at least for 1:1 for Telegram
  597. rozzin Kris: the docs say "Username spoofing (so it looks like the remote users) only works with webhooks for Discord, Mattermost, Slack."? https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/wiki/Features#username-and-avatar-spoofing
  598. Kris irc and prosody are recent additions
  599. Kris with caveats
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  602. rozzin I see: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/blob/master/matterbridge.toml.sample#L317
  603. rozzin Mmm... maybe there's a webhook extension for ejabberd? 😆
  604. rozzin Though "just conform to whatever interface Slack is using" does not feel like it's likely to be a long-term winning play....
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  606. Kris sure, I think the plan is to use the Prosody/Snikket RestAP once that hits a stable release
  607. Kris it just used what was available rght now
  608. Kris no dea if something like that is planned for ejabberd
  609. Kris *idea
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  618. x0n homebeach, Kris: thanks! gonna take this into cosideration too... I was as of yet undecided on either prosody or ejabberd. from preliminary reading, ejabberd seems to be considered the better of the two by majority vote as of now?
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  621. Licaon_Kter x0n: the ecosystem is split between the two + some little tigase and openfire
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  625. Licaon_Kter x0n: one year ago https://nitter.fdn.fr/iNPUTmice/status/1257543944486785030
  626. Kris x0n, my take: if you want to scale to a lot of users and otherwise bother little with it Ejabberd. If you only have a few hundred users at most and want to do some bleeding edge stuff and tinker wth it yourself: prosody.
  627. Kris both are good
  628. Licaon_Kter Eg. Jitsi Meet is targeted to Prosody, so they have all sorts of extra modules While it works fine with ejabberd you don't get that nicer support
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  632. Эннифер I switched to ejabberd for the catpcha support + Fedora has a confined sepolicy for it
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  640. Anhydrous Эннифер: +1
  641. Эннифер ejabberd also has a built in stun/turn which makes for easier a/v setup
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  649. Licaon_Kter Эннифер: eturnal works alongside prosody ;)
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  662. Alex I've had great success with coturn and prosody
  663. Alex https://github.com/coturn/coturn
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  667. Эннифер Is eturnal the same codebase as the built-in ejabberd one?
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  673. Licaon_Kter Эннифер: yup
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  680. Menel Even the USA+Canada covid vaxbot still works with prosody. I wonder how it is now after the server upgrade? https://yaxim.org/blog/2021/04/09/vaxbot-performance-challenge/
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  686. moparisthebest Well it's been discontinued in USA I guess
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  701. qrpnxz > matterbridge supports spoofing in ... their github issue gave me the idea that they didn't support spoofing anywhere (or in the least not xmpp)
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  712. Kris qrpnxz, yes 100%, it uses the Slack webhooks module for Prosody right now
  713. qrpnxz ty
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  795. rom1dep have you guys heard of galene, https://github.com/jech/galene , as an alternative to jitsi meet?
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  810. Licaon_Kter All their readme's look like markdown but their extensions are not .md so they are rendered as plaintext with $hitty markup all over...meh
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  828. rom1dep Licaon_Kter: go file a PR!! ☺️
  829. Licaon_Kter Heh, don't get me wrong, they had me at "armv7" :)
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  833. rom1dep haven't you killed all your RPis by overheating torture yet? :)
  834. Licaon_Kter It idle, mostly compiling eturnal, dino, prosody and devilutionx when those get new commits
  835. Licaon_Kter It's idle, mostly compiling eturnal, dino, prosody and devilutionx when those get new commits
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  856. Licaon_Kter Wait...did galene just built in 7 mins on a RPi1? I can't even build Jitsi Meet on 3+ with 1Gb RAM (minus 300 for ejabberd/postgres whatever) anymore ;(
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  861. Kris rom1dep, but does galene also user XMPP like Jitsi-meet? Doesn't look like it, right?
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  864. Licaon_Kter eh, can't win them all
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