XMPP Service Operators - 2021-06-22

  1. millesimus has joined
  2. schäfchen726 has left
  3. wladmis has left
  4. millesimus has left
  5. thndrbvr has joined
  6. Jakob has joined
  7. sonny has left
  8. sonny has joined
  9. ross has left
  10. ross has joined
  11. Харпер has left
  12. millesimus has joined
  13. DP has joined
  14. Mel has left
  15. alberto has joined
  16. Харпер has joined
  17. patasca has left
  18. Mel has joined
  19. riyas has joined
  20. wladmis has joined
  21. millesimus has left
  22. ernst.on.tour has left
  23. ernst.on.tour has joined
  24. Mark has left
  25. Харпер has left
  26. Харпер has joined
  27. Steven Roose has left
  28. kryptos has left
  29. millesimus has joined
  30. ricky has left
  31. kryptos has joined
  32. Kris has left
  33. Харпер has left
  34. DP has left
  35. Харпер has joined
  36. wladmis has left
  37. wladmis has joined
  38. christian has left
  39. millesimus has left
  40. rob has left
  41. Bjarkan has joined
  42. şişio has left
  43. Jonny has left
  44. patasca has joined
  45. Bjarkan has left
  46. wladmis has left
  47. wladmis has joined
  48. riyas has left
  49. wladmis has left
  50. millesimus has joined
  51. Jonny has joined
  52. rob has joined
  53. millesimus has left
  54. Jonny has left
  55. DP has joined
  56. alien has left
  57. alien has joined
  58. alberto has left
  59. kousu has left
  60. millesimus has joined
  61. wladmis has joined
  62. patasca has left
  63. schmillin has left
  64. wladmis has left
  65. kousu has joined
  66. millesimus has left
  67. alien has left
  68. Mel has left
  69. wladmis has joined
  70. schmillin has joined
  71. Mel has joined
  72. millesimus has joined
  73. kryptos has left
  74. millesimus has left
  75. Calvin has left
  76. Харпер has left
  77. Харпер has joined
  78. millesimus has joined
  79. Dave has left
  80. millesimus has left
  81. Mel has left
  82. Mel has joined
  83. alien has joined
  84. da Stein has left
  85. da Stein has joined
  86. Jonny has joined
  87. Suren has left
  88. balabol.im has joined
  89. millesimus has joined
  90. Suren has joined
  91. ernst.on.tour has left
  92. ernst.on.tour has joined
  93. pod has joined
  94. patasca has joined
  95. millesimus has left
  96. Харпер has left
  97. Licaon_Kter has joined
  98. ernst.on.tour has left
  99. ernst.on.tour has joined
  100. millesimus has joined
  101. kousu has left
  102. millesimus has left
  103. patasca has left
  104. kousu has joined
  105. ernst.on.tour has left
  106. ernst.on.tour has joined
  107. patasca has joined
  108. ibikk has joined
  109. ernst.on.tour has left
  110. ru_maniac has left
  111. ru_maniac has joined
  112. ernst.on.tour has joined
  113. lorddavidiii has joined
  114. patasca has left
  115. ru_maniac has left
  116. ru_maniac has joined
  117. da Stein has left
  118. da Stein has joined
  119. Menel has joined
  120. wladmis has left
  121. ru_maniac has left
  122. Link Mauve has left
  123. da Stein has left
  124. da Stein has joined
  125. ru_maniac has joined
  126. Menel has left
  127. Menel has joined
  128. Menel has left
  129. Харпер has joined
  130. briest has left
  131. briest has joined
  132. Menel has joined
  133. Menel has left
  134. Menel has joined
  135. yushyin has left
  136. kousu has left
  137. kousu has joined
  138. ru_maniac has left
  139. riyas has joined
  140. ru_maniac has joined
  141. alberto has joined
  142. alien has left
  143. millesimus has joined
  144. alien has joined
  145. Menel Since only neraly only matrix.org deploys bifrost its sufficient to block "matrix.org"
  146. yushyin has joined
  147. mightyBroccoli has left
  148. patasca has joined
  149. da Stein has left
  150. Харпер has left
  151. riyas has left
  152. Bjarkan has joined
  153. alien has left
  154. alien has joined
  155. Bjarkan has left
  156. undefined has joined
  157. Харпер has joined
  158. neox has joined
  159. balabol.im has left
  160. balabol.im has joined
  161. patasca has left
  162. marc0s has left
  163. marc0s has joined
  164. tsk has left
  165. tsk has joined
  166. alien has left
  167. alien has joined
  168. arcseconds has left
  169. hotaru has left
  170. hotaru has joined
  171. Menel has left
  172. Menel has joined
  173. Huxx has joined
  174. lorddavidiii has left
  175. tsk has left
  176. tsk has joined
  177. karme has joined
  178. Maranda has left
  179. Maranda has joined
  180. arcseconds has joined
  181. Mel has left
  182. lorddavidiii has joined
  183. Mel has joined
  184. ernst.on.tour has left
  185. ernst.on.tour has joined
  186. alien has left
  187. riyas has joined
  188. alien has joined
  189. ru_maniac has left
  190. riyas has left
  191. mightyBroccoli has joined
  192. croax has joined
  193. balabol.im has left
  194. alien has left
  195. balabol.im has joined
  196. hhu has left
  197. hhu has joined
  198. riyas has joined
  199. schäfchen726 has joined
  200. riyas has left
  201. riyas has joined
  202. riyas has left
  203. riyas has joined
  204. undefined has left
  205. Martin has left
  206. Martin has joined
  207. karme has left
  208. Харпер has left
  209. karme has joined
  210. riyas has left
  211. alien has joined
  212. xorman has left
  213. Харпер has joined
  214. xorman has joined
  215. millesimus has left
  216. marc0s has left
  217. marc0s has joined
  218. marc0s has left
  219. marc0s has joined
  220. marc0s has left
  221. marc0s has joined
  222. marc0s has left
  223. marc0s has joined
  224. marc has joined
  225. patasca has joined
  226. Menel has left
  227. jl4 has joined
  228. marc0s has left
  229. marc0s has joined
  230. madmalkav has joined
  231. patasca has left
  232. p55s has left
  233. abidal3 has joined
  234. christian has joined
  235. throughaway123 has joined
  236. Link Mauve has joined
  237. Харпер has left
  238. madmalkav has left
  239. throughaway123 Reminder to everyone who's still on v2 onion, they are going to be discontinued soon and won't be well reachable through Tor. You are adviced to switch to v3.
  240. DP has left
  241. DP has joined
  242. kikuchiyo has joined
  243. throughaway123 And something different: A user of xmpp.zp1.net and creep.im have been spamming and sharing conspiracy theories into a Coronavirus related MUC. I don't know how to reach the admins of those server. If you know, the users are: noname@creep.im and v-mann@xmpp.zp1.net The MUC in question is: xmpp:corona@chat.yax.im?join
  244. creep.im I am not going to ban anyone because of conspiracy theories
  245. Menel has joined
  246. Харпер has joined
  247. joerg has left
  248. jl4 has left
  249. arcseconds has left
  250. xorman has left
  251. madmalkav has joined
  252. throughaway123 It was dominating the MUC through the means of spamming and trolling to spread conspiracy ideology. You neither care about spamming?
  253. Licaon_Kter creep.im: ^^^ ^
  254. Licaon_Kter has left
  255. pintosesk has left
  256. pintosesk has joined
  257. Харпер https://github.com/JabberSPAM/blacklist/commits/master
  258. lorddavidiii has left
  259. throughaway123 Ah, lol, creep.im is already on that blocklist.
  260. DP has left
  261. xorman has joined
  262. DP has joined
  263. Martin Yes, because there was spam and the admin was not reachable by that time. But seems creep.im never tried to get unlisted now that they are reachable here.
  264. hhu has left
  265. hhu has joined
  266. christian throughaway123 are you the responsible for yax.im?
  267. xorman has left
  268. p55s has joined
  269. qrpnxz has left
  270. tribut has left
  271. tribut has joined
  272. xorman has joined
  273. marc0s has left
  274. marc0s has joined
  275. throughaway123 christian: no, sorry can't help you with that.
  276. Dave has joined
  277. taishi has joined
  278. Steven Roose has joined
  279. taishi has left
  280. schäfchen726 has left
  281. riyas has joined
  282. xorman has left
  283. christian has left
  284. Bjarkan has joined
  285. schäfchen726 has joined
  286. mjk has joined
  287. xorman has joined
  288. Bjarkan has left
  289. screamerbeetle has left
  290. riyas has left
  291. schäfchen726 has left
  292. arcseconds has joined
  293. jonas’ throughaway123, the room admin is not taking care of that?
  294. throughaway123 Room admin did respond well.
  295. jonas’ throughaway123, ok, thanks
  296. throughaway123 (It happend during their sleeping time. Next morning they got blocked)
  297. jonas’ at that stage I think escalation to the service operators is not necessary or helpful. especially with that coronavirus topic (as much as I despise conspiracy theories), I don’t think that a network-wide ban (deletion of the account) would be beneficial to anyone.
  298. schäfchen726 has joined
  299. schäfchen726 has left
  300. hhu has left
  301. bb2k2 has joined
  302. jonas’ if the behaviour spreads to other places, that’s a different story obviously
  303. throughaway123 Why do you believe it's not helpful?
  304. patasca has joined
  305. jonas’ it is a slippery slope we need to be careful around
  306. hhu has joined
  307. jonas’ in the end, I run netiher of the involved servers and if the room admin is taking care of it, it’s also fine from the search.jabber.network perspective, so these are just my private ramblings anyway
  308. jonas’ and I need to attend to other things now :)
  309. millesimus has joined
  310. xorman has left
  311. jonas’ throughaway123, though, it may be useful if you posted screenshots or logs maybe of the specific things which took place, so that involved admins can make a better judgement
  312. DP has left
  313. schäfchen726 has joined
  314. throughaway123 Borrowing the slippery slope argument, keep in mind that the slippery slope argument is by itself often a slippery slope, following a bias that devalues the risk from remaining passive lower then thr risk from being active, without a rationale explanation. Do nothing because doing something has a risk too, is a slippery slope. Nevertheless I agree, that with power comes great responsibility.
  315. Харпер has left
  316. throughaway123 > throughaway123, though, it may be useful if you posted screenshots or logs maybe of the specific things which took place, so that involved admins can make a better judgement Oh, I thought the posts of the spammers are still publicly visable. They aren't?
  317. jonas’ throughaway123, it requires joining though, which one might not watn to
  318. Харпер has joined
  319. throughaway123 (Oh, ok. i guess that is due to the spam. )
  320. jonas’ (I personally left that room because it was too much to bear mentally, so I’d prefer not to join -- I can imagine that others might want to keep their contact with that topic as low as possible, too, so screenshots help :))
  321. xorman has joined
  322. DP has joined
  323. joerg has joined
  324. throughaway123 https://share.conversations.im/throughaway123/BQJj6HRXEYrCgZro/YGTMzaOuQS69u-PwwfhIGQ.jpg
  325. throughaway123 https://share.conversations.im/throughaway123/bV5P1lCZu2s9oxfR/BEPAC7g4QJ6DFy_UZqQ4WA.jpg
  326. throughaway123 https://share.conversations.im/throughaway123/1NEIJ35O3R6vbSMX/FfMDj8NWTle6TC3cG5-fLg.jpg
  327. throughaway123 https://share.conversations.im/throughaway123/1OgenLfvQG8ekgbX/psJfzyNlTKmYVZCifrOwgA.jpg
  328. throughaway123 https://share.conversations.im/throughaway123/7zHVgVSbDwXuPSS4/6qyfYgGeRHyB8tgJk5X7Hw.jpg
  329. throughaway123 (kleine auswahl)
  330. throughaway123 (It's in german, don't know how helpfull that is)
  331. croax Anyway, to report this is spamming or not should only be reported by MUC admins. Why to escalade this here while we don't even know this is not in accordance with MUC policy or not. Disclaimer: I don't support these theories.
  332. croax Last pic is pretty clear but this is MUC admin business
  333. Menel has left
  334. şişio has joined
  335. Menel has joined
  336. xorman has left
  337. throughaway123 croax: 1. if someone spreads racist conspiracy theories I consider this to be a problem 2. if the MUC policy is against or in support of racist conspiracy theories is a different question. 3. It's not, and I said this already. The MUC is well moderated. 4. Why do you believe your input is of any use in that debate?
  338. hhu has left
  339. Ellenor Malik This is not where to escalate it, throughaway123. IM or mail the yax.im admins if you can't get a resolution from the MUC mods
  340. Menel has left
  341. throughaway123 creep.im admin responded with: I don't care.
  342. patasca has left
  343. croax throughaway123: what? Only saying this is not the place. There could be a murder we do not operate this scope of issue.
  344. Ge0rG throughaway123: https://yaxim.org/yax.im/tos/ covers what is legal and what is not legal on yax.im.
  345. Ellenor Malik throughaway123: The MUC is on yax.im, not creep.im
  346. jonas’ Ellenor Malik, the offender is not on yax.im though
  347. throughaway123 jonas’: correct! :-)
  348. croax MUC admin can block or report to authority.
  349. Харпер throughaway123, how do you know the JID of the spammers if you aren't admin of that muc?
  350. Ellenor Malik jonas’: The chat.* admin (usually = Jabber service admin) can revoke access to terrible people, at home and overseas.
  351. croax But this is under admin responsabiltiy. If admin need federation help, this is the right place. But as far as I understand, that's not the case (yet)
  352. hhu has joined
  353. Ellenor Malik so it's in-scope for Yax.
  354. croax But this is under admin responsabiltiy. If admin needs federation help, this is the right place. But as far as I understand, that's not the case (yet)
  355. throughaway123 > throughaway123, how do you know the JID of the spammers if you aren't admin of that muc? it's public soon as one shares a pic.
  356. Ellenor Malik Their rhs is.
  357. Ellenor Malik Bravo, you found a chat channel that's not well moderated. Cookie?
  358. xorman has joined
  359. Харпер hmm http upload shares jid? not just server?
  360. jonas’ only the server
  361. loopboom has joined
  362. Menel has joined
  363. throughaway123 Ok, here I have a question to fellow service operator: What is the correct process to limit the spread of racism, spammers, conspiracy theroies, sexism...? (Hint: if your answer is a singular solution, you do not have the required knowledge to answer the question, and so please keep the noise out)
  364. DP has left
  365. mjk has left
  366. Bjarkan has joined
  367. Julian Ejabberd can be configured to include the jid in the get url. mod_http_upload - jid_in_url
  368. DP has joined
  369. croax throughaway123: there's MUC policy, server policy, law, and free speech. Guess who to report to.
  370. balabol.im has left
  371. joerg has left
  372. mjk has joined
  373. jl4 has joined
  374. kikuchiyo has left
  375. xorman has left
  376. throughaway123 croax: can you please stop being a reply guy, if you're obviously not able to answer my question?
  377. throughaway123 croax: can you please stop being a reply-guy, if you're obviously not able to answer my question?
  378. croax Right
  379. throughaway123 Thanks.
  380. MattJ throughaway123, it seems to me like you already made up your mind what kind of answer you want
  381. kikuchiyo has joined
  382. MattJ I'm not sure this is the best venue for that discussion. These are complex social issues.
  383. Bjarkan has left
  384. MattJ We're not likely to solve them here to everyone's satisfaction, and I'd rather not be responsible for moderating any attempt
  385. balabol.im has joined
  386. MattJ Every MUC and server admin has their own policies, so if you have specific problems, it's best to reach out to them directly
  387. MattJ And if they're not interested in solving the problem to your satisfaction, just leave and/or block them as needed
  388. şişio has left
  389. şişio has joined
  390. DP has left
  391. Bjarkan has joined
  392. kikuchiyo has left
  393. Steven Roose has left
  394. throughaway123 Ok, your MUC, your rules. Everyone is here welcome, as long they are MUC operator?
  395. jayteeuk has left
  396. Ellenor Malik No, service op.
  397. MattJ The primary focus of this channel is for XMPP server operators to discuss with each other the XMPP network. This can be to resolve technical issues with federation, or share advice, tips and other relevant information about running a server.
  398. throughaway123 (Yes sorry, what was what I ment)
  399. jonas’ throughaway123, there are ways to get banned even from here, for sure
  400. Andreas has joined
  401. xorman has joined
  402. jonas’ the XSF is currently in the process of establishing a CoC which will also apply to this venue I suppose.
  403. MattJ We don't exclude others from participating in such discussions, as long as discussion stays on this topic. In some cases we have muted non-operators for a while when it was necessary to keep the channel useful for its purpose.
  404. Харпер disco is used for getting member, correct?
  405. Andreas has left
  406. dot.r has joined
  407. DP has joined
  408. kikuchiyo has joined
  409. ernst.on.tour has left
  410. MattJ Харпер, members of a MUC? No, there is a specific query for that (only available to MUC admins or when the MUC is configured to show JIDs publicly)
  411. Харпер no in this room
  412. Харпер by authbot
  413. MattJ Oh, I see
  414. MattJ It's based on the contact addresses advertised by your server: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0152.html
  415. Bjarkan has left
  416. throughaway123 > The primary focus of this channel is for XMPP server operators to discuss with each other the XMPP network. My question was about that. To discuss how to deal with such issues as a network. So I'm confused what you mean with "xmpp nerwork". Onky the technology, or the technology + the human interaction which makes it a social network?
  417. ernst.on.tour has joined
  418. alberto has left
  419. WojtekIM has joined
  420. Wojtek has joined
  421. xorman has left
  422. MattJ Primarily the technology, but no, not only. The tools already exist to, for example, block other servers, MUCs, etc. and also to contact service admins. You indicated this is not the kind of answer you wanted, though
  423. pintosesk an 'xmpp network' is just used to describe the public facing XMPP client-server infrastructure, no?
  424. DP has left
  425. MattJ It seems you want discussion of actual policies... however opinions will vary strongly (I know that for a fact), so we're unlikely to reach an agreement here
  426. dot.r has left
  427. MattJ Already there is mild disagreement about whether e.g. conspiracy theories should be blocked, and at what level they should be blocked. The thing about a decentralized network is that these disagreements are okay... we all have the power to choose what services we use and what MUCs we join
  428. throughaway123 > You indicated this is not the kind of answer you wanted, though They are fine and useful as answers, if they respect the cultural and social aspects that lead to the rise of [racism, sexism, conspiracy theories...]
  429. Ge0rG You can't solve social problems with technical means. This has been true since the invention of technology.
  430. MattJ For example, evidence I have read suggests that engaging with many conspiracy theorists is the recommended route over shutting them out (which just reinforces their belief that they are right)
  431. DP has joined
  432. MattJ But this is not the venue to really decide that, it's up to service and MUC admins to decide for themselves what policy they will follow
  433. throughaway123 > You can't solve social problems with technical means. This has been true since the invention of technology. Technolgy impacts social interactions. There's a reason that by the means of youtube and facebook a new rise of conspiracy theory and a new rise of facists can be observed.
  434. MattJ In a coronavirus news channel, I can totally see a ban on non-authoritative sources making sense, for example. A more informal discussion channel might prefer to engage such people instead.
  435. Bjarkan has joined
  436. Ge0rG throughaway123: well, you can make social problems worse with technical means, that's true.
  437. Mel has left
  438. pintosesk > opinions vary strongly I'd think this would be more the place to refine XMPP implementation as a whole or a specific policy one already has in mind, yeah. I'm not necessarily here to tell you what you ought to do, throughaway123, so much as give conjecture on how it might be well done. I suspect many here are of the same disposition, beyond kindly informing other hosts of spam sources and such *strictly* janitorial matters.
  439. nakumo has joined
  440. jl4 has left
  441. jl4 has joined
  442. pintosesk where the harm is not merely social, but infrastructurally damaging.
  443. x51 has joined
  444. jl4 has left
  445. jl4 has joined
  446. throughaway123 > For example, evidence I have read suggests that engaging with many conspiracy theorists is the recommended route over shutting them out (which just reinforces their belief that they are right) That is from this one singular study? (I saw it being shared some time ago in some MUC, can't remember exactly. The assumption that engaging is more effective then shutting them down, is false, because it depends on the circumstances. If you want to push out professional trolling effort that aim to shift the overtone window (yes, facists and conspiracy ideologists educate themselves about such means of communication) you push them out, but engage with the rest, for example.
  447. DP has left
  448. jl4 has left
  449. jl4 has joined
  450. pintosesk Providing an extensible service that suits wide needs via modularity; that is XMPP to me. Taking social footholds is beyond that scope imo, and should be left to individual administration (or modules ;D)
  451. jl4 has left
  452. jl4 has joined
  453. pintosesk Providing an extensible service that suits wide needs via modularity; that is XMPP to me. Taking social footholds at the core level is beyond that scope imo, and should be left to individual administration (or modules ;D)
  454. throughaway123 > throughaway123: well, you can make social problems worse with technical means, that's true. You impact it, for the better or the worse. (What's better/worse obviosly depends on eachs individual position).
  455. MattJ throughaway123, right, and this is exactly the thing that I *don't* want to debate in this chat :)
  456. jl4 has left
  457. jl4 has joined
  458. throughaway123 UX, it's about UX
  459. MattJ Maybe you are right that the study is false, maybe you are wrong - but we're not going to agree here
  460. Kris has joined
  461. MattJ (I mean "we" collectively)
  462. pintosesk > throughaway123 wrote: > UX, it's about UX UX?
  463. pintosesk In what way?
  464. throughaway123 user experience
  465. jl4 has left
  466. jl4 has joined
  467. MattJ I personally don't know what the right answer is to dealing with conspiracy theorists, but I do know how to contact XMPP admins and block servers, if that's what you want to do
  468. MattJ But you have to respect that some people may not believe that is the right course of action
  469. pintosesk > shut them down This isn't a social steering committee, imo.
  470. Харпер has left
  471. throughaway123 UX will differ depening if service operator and xmpp developers take countering conspiracy theories, sexism, racism as an important part to improofe UX. It will impact code, it will impact admin behaviour.
  472. pintosesk his is an infrastructure chat. These people pose a social threat to you, not infrastructure.
  473. pintosesk This is an infrastructure chat. These people pose a social threat to you, not infrastructure.
  474. screamerbeetle has joined
  475. screamerbeetle has left
  476. screamerbeetle has joined
  477. throughaway123 (The infastructure as no meaning, without the social interaction)
  478. pintosesk And you need more than XMPP to properly implement your censorship. Call your gov. surveillance agency or the FCC, or something.
  479. DP has joined
  480. pintosesk > throughaway123 wrote: > (The infastructure as no meaning, without the social interaction) Then you don't need to go through us, the XMPP operators, because we are not the independent variable here.
  481. pintosesk Your princess is in another castle.
  482. throughaway123 (I don't call for cencorship. I call to think about how our admin and development decisions can have an impact on [social things)
  483. Mel has joined
  484. Holger throughaway123: And you've been told how this topic is off-topic in here.
  485. loopboom has left
  486. pintosesk And how do you plan to act based on that thinking? 'shutting down' people is censorship.
  487. pintosesk no slicing this pie differently.
  488. eevvoor has joined
  489. Ge0rG If everybody is good at detecting and ignoring racism and propaganda, then we don't need to implement any technical measures. All we need to do is elect governments that put proper education first, and then wait for 40 years.
  490. Kris make a bot that picks up on certain conspiracy phrases and ridicules them. There, fixed that problem for you /s
  491. Breitibaal has joined
  492. pintosesk If you aren't going to speculate on how to infrastructurally implement your wish here, not just socially, your result will be partial and your desires unfulfilled. At least brainstorm some sort of module for this, y'know? For example: a room or message keyword field exposed to the user.
  493. DP has left
  494. jl4 has left
  495. jl4 has joined
  496. alberto has joined
  497. throughaway123 > throughaway123: And you've been told how this topic is off-topic in here. I've been first told it's offtopic, then explained how it's ontopic, to then again it would be offtopic. The reasoning is not consitancy, so I have trouble to understand what it ok to say, and what not. All I notice that I'm not welcomed, but I am unable to use the presented arguments to form a logical reasoning out of it. (Sorry that might be my autism. Humans confuse me....)
  498. jl4 has left
  499. jl4 has joined
  500. pintosesk a bonus of such a module would be quick search of messages within a certain range, and if the keywords display near the body onscreen, one might even remember the simple keyword when looking back for a long ago message.
  501. pintosesk for rooms, it could display near the topic and orient discussion more strictly.
  502. pintosesk thoughts?
  503. Kris pintosesk, such specifc implementation topics can better be discussed in a general muc like chat@joinjabber.org or the specific server's mucs if you want to talk actual module creation
  504. throughaway123 (See, now people engage on how a XEP meeting my need could look like. Am I acting against the MUC rules if I engage with it...it's hell of a confusion to me)
  505. pintosesk hmm.
  506. Holger throughaway123: Issues/questions regarding the infrastructure itself ("why is s2s with jabber.org broken?", "how do I block jabber.org?") are on-topic. Issues/questions regarding the impact of infrastructure decisions on social things ("will blocking jabber.org result in a desired social outcome"?) are off-topic.
  507. pintosesk So this is purely a janitorial chat then.
  508. Kris server admin, yes
  509. MattJ Yes, discussions of policies are off-topic, and discussions of client UX are off-topic (this channel is not for client developers) and discussions of XEPs are generally off-topic (this room is not about general XMPP protocol development)
  510. Kris don't call them glorified janitors 😉
  511. pintosesk Gotcha. Well, throughaway123 , sorry to mislead you, there actually really is nothing constructive you can say here, but if you care to join me in chat@joinjabber.org, you might be more satisfied.
  512. riyas has joined
  513. pintosesk Thanks, by the by, Kris .
  514. pintosesk > glorified janitors I guess it's more like plumbing or a post office'
  515. pintosesk > glorified janitors I guess it's more like plumbing or a post office.
  516. Martin authbot: help
  517. MattJ authbot cannot help you, Martin
  518. Martin 😔
  519. xorman has joined
  520. throughaway123 Ok, I think finally I understand what this MUC is for. Please update your MUC description acording to your expectations. That confusion easily leads to frustration and a waste of time.
  521. Martin TIL authbot.
  522. Bjarkan has left
  523. Martin How does it work? Muting people who spam after joining?
  524. Menel has left
  525. MattJ throughaway123, I think the topic is clear enough for a topic, but we are working on a more throrough page explaining this channel for the xmpp.org site
  526. jonas’ Martin, it requests contact info. if real jid == relevant contact && affiliation == none, set affiliation to member
  527. jonas’ Martin, it requests contact info of the domain of the real jid. if real jid == relevant contact && affiliation == none, set affiliation to member
  528. Martin Ah, sweet.
  529. Menel has joined
  530. jonas’ (on join)
  531. pintosesk you might want to change the topic from 'discussions between XMPP server operators about the XMPP network' to '[...] about maintenance and status of the XMPP network'
  532. pintosesk so as to clarify that general discussion of the network itself is off topic.
  533. Martin I want a 'verified server operator' blue tick. 😂
  534. MattJ Maybe one day we can finish the hats XEP and you can have one, it would indeed be perfect for this chat :)
  535. Bjarkan has joined
  536. millesimus has left
  537. Kris just make people members and mute guests?
  538. millesimus has joined
  539. MattJ I (and authbot) do make people members, but not everyone has XEP-0152 enabled or joins from a JID listed there if they do
  540. xorman has left
  541. jonas’ (nor should they have to)
  542. MattJ and I think this is a valid place for non operators to e.g. ask for help reaching an admin of a particular service, or other enquiries that we might be able to help with
  543. zp1.net has left
  544. MattJ Oh yes, I meant that
  545. zp1.net has joined
  546. DP has joined
  547. croax MattJ: maybe to create a dedicated MUC for this
  548. MattJ For what?
  549. bb2k2 has left
  550. throughaway123 (It's obviously ok to be offtopic from time to time, and the following question is just to verify that I understand the rules of this MUC correctly: you're all offtopic atm?)
  551. MattJ if you mean for seeking admins of a particular service, that's basically saying that admins should join both rooms
  552. MattJ and we (I, at least) have enough MUCs already
  553. throughaway123 (It's obviously ok to be offtopic from time to time, and the following question is just to verify that I understand the rules of this MUC correctly: you're all offtopic atm? ((sorry if that'a all obvious to you, can't help with my autism))
  554. MattJ throughaway123, yes, kinda. We're discussing the rules of the room... not really a better place to do that :)
  555. MattJ We had no problems when it was small and there were ~30 people here who just got along fine
  556. pintosesk growing pains?
  557. MattJ But nowadays we have many people, new people, and I think it has grown faster than the "community"
  558. croax There could be a MUC providing help for users on general XMPP service questions. But maintenance of federation and technical advices is not same subject to me.
  559. MattJ As I said, we're working on publishing some guidelines
  560. Holger The XMPP hype is getting out of hands.
  561. MattJ croax, this has never before been a "strictly maintenance and status discussions" chat
  562. Bjarkan has left
  563. croax MattJ: yes not saying this is or has to be. Just a wish :-)
  564. MattJ I only started being strict about staying on topic in recent months because of things getting out of hand
  565. MattJ If everyone really wishes it to become that, it can be
  566. xorman has joined
  567. 4223 has left
  568. MattJ and then it may make sense to close it entirely and have it be invite/registration only, after verifying you are an operator
  569. MattJ I don't know if that's the best route, but... meh
  570. pintosesk This seems to be a maintenance and status discussions chat with select benefits to me.
  571. Ellenor Malik Mmm.
  572. pintosesk I can't say much more than that.
  573. MattJ Well it's clear that some people these days *expect* it to be that
  574. Ellenor Malik Can there be an operators-meta@ for this kind of bikeshedding?
  575. 4223 has joined
  576. patasca has joined
  577. MattJ Ellenor Malik, not if I'm a moderator there, and I don't know who else would volunteer
  578. MattJ Anyone is free to go and make one anywhere, of course
  579. Ellenor Malik ah
  580. Ellenor Malik > MattJ wrote: > and then it may make sense to close it entirely and have it be invite/registration only, after verifying you are an operator > I don't know if that's the best route, but... meh Doesn't that possibly shut out new operators?
  581. MattJ Yes, which is why I don't really like it
  582. MattJ I also think it's fine and valuable to have an open place where non-operators can reach operators
  583. MattJ But maybe most other operators don't feel that way
  584. jonas’ MattJ, I think making everyone happy is not going to work. So if anything, the room should be a place you (or whoever has that role, the XSF, ...) is happy owning with.
  585. jonas’ if most other operators disagree with that, someone can step up and improve on it, one way or another.
  586. Bjarkan has joined
  587. MattJ jonas’, well, I get complaints when I enforce strict on-topic discussions, I get complaints when I don't ban people immediately for being off-topic... I'm not sure how happy I'll ever get :)
  588. jonas’ though I don’t think that a "closed" group where at the same time all XMPP operator have access is especially useful.
  589. Ellenor Malik I consider myself to be among new service operators. I have less than 5 years' experience in this field.
  590. xorman has left
  591. DP has left
  592. pintosesk You don't have to ban people immediately, but drawing a clear line between on and off topic is best to make non regulars or different crowds at ease here.
  593. pintosesk Otherwise we can't tell if we're dancing on your head or not.
  594. Holger I could imagine (a) everyone being happy with having non-ops reaching out, (b) most being happy with occasional off-topic smalltalk, and (c) most being (very) unhappy with endless discussions on random political topics. Problem is a policy that takes care of (c) easily conflicts with (a) and (b).
  595. Харпер has joined
  596. MattJ Yes, (b) is the problem, because it used to be fine when it was not controversial discussions, but these days we get more and more controversial discussions coming up... and the only impartial way to deal with it is to ban the lot
  597. Ge0rG IMHO this place should be primarily for reaching out to server operators about technical issues. We have no technology to solve social issues and thus I'm fully okay with flagging them as off topic, and muting repeat offenders
  598. MattJ Otherwise we lose the real value of this room
  599. Ellenor Malik The fact I've not quit completely falls to a mixture of causes: the welcoming and apparently collegial nature of places like here, stubbornness after banishment from support chats, and an ideological interest in ensuring a future for the Jabber federation.
  600. pintosesk I think it's possible to resolve the conflict so long as nobody makes smalltalk with any intent or motive behind it.
  601. DP has joined
  602. MattJ pintosesk, but I don't want to be the judge of whether people have intent or motive... it just puts me in an awkward position
  603. pintosesk So just, 'if you want something from us, it better be about our servers and not us as people' would do I think
  604. MattJ I end up with PMs from people who think I am personally opposed to them, and unfair
  605. jl4 has left
  606. jl4 has joined
  607. Ge0rG MattJ: that's the expected effect of all moderation
  608. pintosesk you just gotta make it clear that the smalltalk is pleasant talk and not a therapy session or thinktank, the latter being what I thought it might partially have been.
  609. Харпер has left
  610. MattJ I want to preserve what we had, which is what is in the topic... a place for server operators to discuss the network in a civil manner
  611. MattJ But I believe that is becoming increasingly impossible as the channel grows
  612. Харпер has joined
  613. pintosesk I feel like you're being a bit condemning about it, although perhaps I'm just new to the phenomenon.
  614. Bjarkan has left
  615. pintosesk I don't think there's much else left for me to say about it though.
  616. pintosesk How's the price of gas?
  617. MattJ This channel has been one of the most unpleasant parts of my participation in XMPP in recent months
  618. MattJ So yeah
  619. jonas’ "pintosesk, who cares, don’t drive a car or do you hate the planet?!"
  620. jonas’ (just to drive the point home, I guess :()
  621. Bjarkan has joined
  622. pintosesk Hovercars or bust
  623. pintosesk but I digress
  624. Ge0rG MattJ: I think you are doing a great job with the moderation here
  625. MattJ Ge0rG, sure, some people think so. Others don't :)
  626. pintosesk I don't think you're a bad fellow.
  627. jonas’ what bothers me most is that this is taking valuable time from MattJ :)
  628. MattJ and I know I'll never please everyone. But I don't really want server operators leaving because of whatever policies we decide upon here.
  629. MattJ Obviously some will, but it's mostly valuable if we can keep it useful for its original purpose
  630. MattJ I think the next step is to get that page up on xmpp.org, and then we have some concrete points on record that we can agree to and/or iterate upon
  631. Ge0rG MattJ: if the goal of this place is to have server operators available for civil discourse, you should weigh the feedback from them higher, or you'll end up without them
  632. pintosesk I don't think anything or one of value will leave is you say 'no ad hominems or unsolicited requests for personal reform'.
  633. MattJ Ge0rG, indeed, I try
  634. pintosesk or something like that.
  635. Харпер has left
  636. Ellenor Malik I'm just a soft animal
  637. pintosesk that's cool
  638. ross has left
  639. ross has joined
  640. Харпер has joined
  641. Харпер My hat has arrived
  642. jonas’ nice hat
  643. pintosesk nice (mystery) hat
  644. mjk has left
  645. mjk has joined
  646. riyas has left
  647. Bjarkan has left
  648. jayteeuk has joined
  649. Bjarkan has joined
  650. Martin has left
  651. Martin has joined
  652. jl4 has left
  653. arcseconds has left
  654. raclette has joined
  655. raclette has left
  656. DP has left
  657. patasca has left
  658. Bjarkan has left
  659. riyas has joined
  660. DP has joined
  661. Bjarkan has joined
  662. throughaway123 > I want to preserve what we had, which is what is in the topic... a place for server operators to discuss the network in a civil manner So either I'm again confused what this room is for, or you just wish to preserve an old status quo that was: I don't care about minorities, I don't care about white supremacy and sexism, please I want my privilidged comfort being protected. What ever, I understand I'm not welcomed here. Bye.
  663. throughaway123 has left
  664. Харпер has left
  665. patasca has joined
  666. MattJ and there we go
  667. Ge0rG MattJ: you can't make it fit for the people who *want* to misunderstand you
  668. Харпер has joined
  669. millesimus has left
  670. lorddavidiii has joined
  671. lorddavidiii has left
  672. lorddavidiii has joined
  673. croax We can build best message protocols, it seems humans have built-in firewalls and hardcoded stanza length limits. So do I.
  674. DP has left
  675. lorddavidiii has left
  676. lorddavidiii has joined
  677. alien has left
  678. DP has joined
  679. Bjarkan has left
  680. alien has joined
  681. Bjarkan has joined
  682. Ellenor Malik :o
  683. alien has left
  684. Menel has left
  685. patasca has left
  686. screamerbeetle has left
  687. Bjarkan has left
  688. alien has joined
  689. alberto has left
  690. riyas has left
  691. Calvin has joined
  692. Christopher M0YNG has left
  693. riyas has joined
  694. balabol.im has left
  695. balabol.im has joined
  696. Christopher M0YNG has joined
  697. alberto has joined
  698. DP has left
  699. patasca has joined
  700. ernst.on.tour has left
  701. Bjarkan has joined
  702. ernst.on.tour has joined
  703. DP has joined
  704. Licaon_Kter has joined
  705. marc0s has left
  706. marc0s has joined
  707. Douglas Terabyte has left
  708. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  709. marc0s has left
  710. marc0s has joined
  711. marc0s has left
  712. marc0s has joined
  713. marc0s has left
  714. marc0s has joined
  715. marc0s has left
  716. marc0s has joined
  717. marc0s has left
  718. marc0s has joined
  719. patasca has left
  720. marc0s has left
  721. marc0s has joined
  722. xorman has joined
  723. marc0s has left
  724. marc0s has joined
  725. rob Hopefully I didn't miss anything important 😵‍💫
  726. riyas has left
  727. Martin MattJ: > I (and authbot) do make people members, but not everyone has XEP-0152 enabled or joins from a JID listed there if they do 0157?
  728. Bjarkan has left
  729. Харпер yes
  730. ross has left
  731. ross has joined
  732. Mel has left
  733. Bjarkan has joined
  734. riyas has joined
  735. Licaon_Kter So I should join with the user admin mentioned in 157 to get upgraded to "member"?
  736. Харпер yes
  737. Харпер you can add multiple too
  738. Martin Licaon_Kter: You are already member. ;-)
  739. Licaon_Kter Martin: because I asked at one point when the room went members only, sameish offtopic iirc
  740. jonas’ Licaon_Kter, that’ll stay, authbot is only an aid for the room owners to not have to allowlist everyone manually :)
  741. jonas’ Licaon_Kter, that’ll stay, authbot is only an aid for the room owners to not have to allowlist *everyone* manually :)
  742. Licaon_Kter Right
  743. Mel has joined
  744. balabol.im has left
  745. Bjarkan has left
  746. Breitibaal has left
  747. dot.r has joined
  748. balabol.im has joined
  749. dot.r has left
  750. Menel has joined
  751. Licaon_Kter FYI in the Offtopic room we have lots of fun being ontopic, so if you wanna redirect them to xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join feel free. /end of advertisment
  752. Bjarkan has joined
  753. lorddavidiii has left
  754. Bjarkan has left
  755. wladmis has joined
  756. qrpnxz has joined
  757. alex has joined
  758. şişio has left
  759. lorddavidiii has joined
  760. lorddavidiii has left
  761. lorddavidiii has joined
  762. lorddavidiii has left
  763. lorddavidiii has joined
  764. lorddavidiii has left
  765. riyas has left
  766. lorddavidiii has joined
  767. lorddavidiii has left
  768. qrpnxz has left
  769. şişio has joined
  770. lorddavidiii has joined
  771. lorddavidiii has left
  772. Bjarkan has joined
  773. lorddavidiii has joined
  774. lorddavidiii has left
  775. ross has left
  776. ross has joined
  777. lorddavidiii has joined
  778. marc0s has left
  779. marc0s has joined
  780. lorddavidiii has left
  781. Kris has left
  782. Kris has joined
  783. qrpnxz has joined
  784. lorddavidiii has joined
  785. lorddavidiii has left
  786. lorddavidiii has joined
  787. lorddavidiii has left
  788. lorddavidiii has joined
  789. lorddavidiii has left
  790. undefined has joined
  791. lorddavidiii has joined
  792. lorddavidiii has left
  793. ross has left
  794. ross has joined
  795. lorddavidiii has joined
  796. lorddavidiii has left
  797. lorddavidiii has joined
  798. lorddavidiii has left
  799. lorddavidiii has joined
  800. lorddavidiii has left
  801. lorddavidiii has joined
  802. lorddavidiii has left
  803. alien has left
  804. lorddavidiii has joined
  805. lorddavidiii has left
  806. Kris has left
  807. Kris has joined
  808. lorddavidiii has joined
  809. lorddavidiii has left
  810. screamerbeetle has joined
  811. screamerbeetle has left
  812. screamerbeetle has joined
  813. lorddavidiii has joined
  814. lorddavidiii has left
  815. lorddavidiii has joined
  816. lorddavidiii has left
  817. joerg has joined
  818. alien has joined
  819. lorddavidiii has joined
  820. lorddavidiii has left
  821. lorddavidiii has joined
  822. lorddavidiii has left
  823. Bjarkan has left
  824. lorddavidiii has joined
  825. lorddavidiii has left
  826. lorddavidiii has joined
  827. lorddavidiii has left
  828. lorddavidiii has joined
  829. lorddavidiii has left
  830. lorddavidiii has joined
  831. lorddavidiii has left
  832. lorddavidiii has joined
  833. lorddavidiii has left
  834. lorddavidiii has joined
  835. lorddavidiii has left
  836. lorddavidiii has joined
  837. lorddavidiii has left
  838. lorddavidiii has joined
  839. lorddavidiii has left
  840. lorddavidiii has joined
  841. lorddavidiii has left
  842. lorddavidiii has joined
  843. lorddavidiii has left
  844. lorddavidiii has joined
  845. jl4 has joined
  846. lorddavidiii has left
  847. jl4 has left
  848. jl4 has joined
  849. lorddavidiii has joined
  850. lorddavidiii has left
  851. Bjarkan has joined
  852. lorddavidiii has joined
  853. lorddavidiii has left
  854. lorddavidiii has joined
  855. lorddavidiii has left
  856. lorddavidiii has joined
  857. lorddavidiii has left
  858. patasca has joined
  859. lorddavidiii has joined
  860. lorddavidiii has left
  861. lorddavidiii has joined
  862. lorddavidiii has left
  863. lorddavidiii has joined
  864. lorddavidiii has left
  865. lorddavidiii has joined
  866. lorddavidiii has left
  867. lorddavidiii has joined
  868. lorddavidiii has left
  869. lorddavidiii has joined
  870. lorddavidiii has left
  871. lorddavidiii has joined
  872. lorddavidiii has left
  873. lorddavidiii has joined
  874. lorddavidiii has left
  875. jonas’ Licaon_Kter, not sure where else I have you, do you intend to incorproate the feedback in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1062 ?
  876. Licaon_Kter jonas’: yes, but lack of time, also was afk for the week.
  877. lorddavidiii has joined
  878. lorddavidiii has left
  879. jonas’ Licaon_Kter, ok, just wanted to make sure, take your time :)
  880. lorddavidiii has joined
  881. Bjarkan has left
  882. lorddavidiii has left
  883. patasca has left
  884. ij has left
  885. lorddavidiii has joined
  886. lorddavidiii has left
  887. lorddavidiii has joined
  888. lorddavidiii has left
  889. Bjarkan has joined
  890. lorddavidiii has joined
  891. lorddavidiii has left
  892. abidal3 has left
  893. Bjarkan has left
  894. lorddavidiii has joined
  895. lorddavidiii has left
  896. lorddavidiii has joined
  897. lorddavidiii has left
  898. Mel has left
  899. lorddavidiii has joined
  900. lorddavidiii has left
  901. lorddavidiii has joined
  902. lorddavidiii has left
  903. lorddavidiii has joined
  904. lorddavidiii has left
  905. Mel has joined
  906. lorddavidiii has joined
  907. lorddavidiii has left
  908. riyas has joined
  909. hhu has left
  910. lorddavidiii has joined
  911. lorddavidiii has left
  912. hhu has joined
  913. lorddavidiii has joined
  914. lorddavidiii has left
  915. patasca has joined
  916. lorddavidiii has joined
  917. lorddavidiii has left
  918. lorddavidiii has joined
  919. lorddavidiii has left
  920. patasca has left
  921. patasca has joined
  922. patasca has left
  923. patasca has joined
  924. lorddavidiii has joined
  925. lorddavidiii has left
  926. lorddavidiii has joined
  927. lorddavidiii has left
  928. hugues lombard has joined
  929. lorddavidiii has joined
  930. lorddavidiii has left
  931. lorddavidiii has joined
  932. lorddavidiii has left
  933. lorddavidiii has joined
  934. lorddavidiii has left
  935. millesimus has joined
  936. lorddavidiii has joined
  937. lorddavidiii has left
  938. lorddavidiii has joined
  939. lorddavidiii has left
  940. jl4 has left
  941. jl4 has joined
  942. lorddavidiii has joined
  943. lorddavidiii has left
  944. lorddavidiii has joined
  945. lorddavidiii has left
  946. lorddavidiii has joined
  947. lorddavidiii has left
  948. 4223 MattJ: thank you!
  949. patasca has left
  950. lorddavidiii has joined
  951. lorddavidiii has left
  952. 4223 > MattJ: you can't make it fit for the people who *want* to misunderstand you Troll from first post. There is nothing to understand. Comes up with different nicks in several mucs.
  953. ross has left
  954. ross has joined
  955. lorddavidiii has joined
  956. lorddavidiii has left
  957. lorddavidiii has joined
  958. lorddavidiii has left
  959. riyas has left
  960. lorddavidiii has joined
  961. lorddavidiii has left
  962. Douglas Terabyte has left
  963. Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir 4223: Called Morph?
  964. lorddavidiii has joined
  965. lorddavidiii has left
  966. lorddavidiii has joined
  967. lorddavidiii has left
  968. lorddavidiii has joined
  969. lorddavidiii has left
  970. jl4 has left
  971. Харпер has left
  972. jl4 has joined
  973. qy Should tell stories about morph to non-xmpp folk. Irritating though he is, he's basically folklore now, and that would drag in users
  974. lorddavidiii has joined
  975. ross has left
  976. lorddavidiii has left
  977. qy Everyone loves a herobrine
  978. ross has joined
  979. patasca has joined
  980. qy Especially a real-life schizophrenic one
  981. 4223 Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir: don't know, the first friendly but never ending questions, mixed with more and more agressive noise reminds me off different nicks (but I do not remind the exact nicks).
  982. lorddavidiii has joined
  983. lorddavidiii has left
  984. MattJ I am sure conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net welcomes your morph discussions :)
  985. Licaon_Kter :)
  986. Bjarkan has joined
  987. 4223 MattJ: /me 🤐
  988. Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir qy: ??
  989. lorddavidiii has joined
  990. Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir Herobrine?
  991. lorddavidiii has left
  992. Martin > I am sure conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net welcomes your morph discussions :) No more morphing please. 🙂
  993. lorddavidiii has joined
  994. lorddavidiii has left
  995. lorddavidiii has joined
  996. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  997. lorddavidiii has left
  998. Харпер has joined
  999. lorddavidiii has joined
  1000. lorddavidiii has left
  1001. lorddavidiii has joined
  1002. lorddavidiii has left
  1003. Bjarkan has left
  1004. lorddavidiii has joined
  1005. lorddavidiii has left
  1006. lorddavidiii has joined
  1007. lorddavidiii has left
  1008. lorddavidiii has joined
  1009. Christopher M0YNG has left
  1010. lorddavidiii has left
  1011. da Stein has joined
  1012. lorddavidiii has joined
  1013. lorddavidiii has left
  1014. tom has joined
  1015. lorddavidiii has joined
  1016. lorddavidiii has left
  1017. lorddavidiii has joined
  1018. patasca has left
  1019. lorddavidiii has left
  1020. Christopher M0YNG has joined
  1021. lorddavidiii has joined
  1022. lorddavidiii has left
  1023. Bjarkan has joined
  1024. lorddavidiii has joined
  1025. lorddavidiii has left
  1026. stpeter has joined
  1027. lorddavidiii has joined
  1028. hhu has left
  1029. lorddavidiii has left
  1030. Christopher M0YNG has left
  1031. hhu has joined
  1032. lorddavidiii has joined
  1033. lorddavidiii has left
  1034. patasca has joined
  1035. x51 has left
  1036. schäfchen726 has left
  1037. lorddavidiii has joined
  1038. Bjarkan has left
  1039. lorddavidiii has left
  1040. schäfchen726 has joined
  1041. lorddavidiii has joined
  1042. lorddavidiii has left
  1043. lorddavidiii has joined
  1044. lorddavidiii has left
  1045. lorddavidiii has joined
  1046. lorddavidiii has left
  1047. lorddavidiii has joined
  1048. lorddavidiii has left
  1049. Bjarkan has joined
  1050. lorddavidiii has joined
  1051. lorddavidiii has left
  1052. lorddavidiii has joined
  1053. lorddavidiii has left
  1054. lorddavidiii has joined
  1055. lorddavidiii has left
  1056. jl4 has left
  1057. hhu has left
  1058. lorddavidiii has joined
  1059. lorddavidiii has left
  1060. Bjarkan has left
  1061. ru_maniac has joined
  1062. hugues lombard has left
  1063. lorddavidiii has joined
  1064. lorddavidiii has left
  1065. Bjarkan has joined
  1066. lorddavidiii has joined
  1067. lorddavidiii has left
  1068. hhu has joined
  1069. lorddavidiii has joined
  1070. lorddavidiii has left
  1071. lorddavidiii has joined
  1072. lorddavidiii has left
  1073. lorddavidiii has joined
  1074. lorddavidiii has left
  1075. lorddavidiii has joined
  1076. lorddavidiii has left
  1077. lorddavidiii has joined
  1078. lorddavidiii has left
  1079. throughaway123 has joined
  1080. lorddavidiii has joined
  1081. lorddavidiii has left
  1082. lorddavidiii has joined
  1083. lorddavidiii has left
  1084. lorddavidiii has joined
  1085. lorddavidiii has left
  1086. lorddavidiii has joined
  1087. [czar] has left
  1088. throughaway123 has left
  1089. lorddavidiii has left
  1090. lorddavidiii has joined
  1091. lorddavidiii has left
  1092. Bjarkan has left
  1093. ij has joined
  1094. lorddavidiii has joined
  1095. lorddavidiii has left
  1096. lorddavidiii has joined
  1097. lorddavidiii has left
  1098. Bjarkan has joined
  1099. lorddavidiii has joined
  1100. lorddavidiii has left
  1101. lorddavidiii has joined
  1102. lorddavidiii has left
  1103. abidal3 has joined
  1104. lorddavidiii has joined
  1105. lorddavidiii has left
  1106. DP has left
  1107. lorddavidiii has joined
  1108. lorddavidiii has left
  1109. lorddavidiii has joined
  1110. lorddavidiii has left
  1111. thndrbvr has left
  1112. thndrbvr has joined
  1113. lorddavidiii has joined
  1114. lorddavidiii has left
  1115. Bjarkan has left
  1116. lorddavidiii has joined
  1117. lorddavidiii has left
  1118. lorddavidiii has joined
  1119. lorddavidiii has left
  1120. DP has joined
  1121. zp1.net has left
  1122. lorddavidiii has joined
  1123. lorddavidiii has left
  1124. [czar] has joined
  1125. lorddavidiii has joined
  1126. lorddavidiii has left
  1127. kryptos has joined
  1128. lorddavidiii has joined
  1129. lorddavidiii has left
  1130. zp1.net has joined
  1131. lorddavidiii has joined
  1132. lorddavidiii has left
  1133. riyas has joined
  1134. lorddavidiii has joined
  1135. lorddavidiii has left
  1136. lorddavidiii has joined
  1137. lorddavidiii has left
  1138. lorddavidiii has joined
  1139. lorddavidiii has left
  1140. lorddavidiii has joined
  1141. lorddavidiii has left
  1142. lorddavidiii has joined
  1143. lorddavidiii has left
  1144. undefined has left
  1145. Steven Roose has joined
  1146. lorddavidiii has joined
  1147. lorddavidiii has left
  1148. lorddavidiii has joined
  1149. lorddavidiii has left
  1150. lorddavidiii has joined
  1151. lorddavidiii has left
  1152. şişio has left
  1153. lorddavidiii has joined
  1154. şişio has joined
  1155. lorddavidiii has left
  1156. jl4 has joined
  1157. jl4 has left
  1158. jl4 has joined
  1159. lorddavidiii has joined
  1160. lorddavidiii has left
  1161. lorddavidiii has joined
  1162. lorddavidiii has left
  1163. lorddavidiii has joined
  1164. lorddavidiii has left
  1165. dinosaurdynasty has left
  1166. undefined has joined
  1167. emus has joined
  1168. lorddavidiii has joined
  1169. lorddavidiii has left
  1170. riyas has left
  1171. lorddavidiii has joined
  1172. Харпер has left
  1173. lorddavidiii has left
  1174. lorddavidiii has joined
  1175. lorddavidiii has left
  1176. Харпер has joined
  1177. lorddavidiii has joined
  1178. lorddavidiii has left
  1179. pep. has joined
  1180. lorddavidiii has joined
  1181. lorddavidiii has left
  1182. karme has left
  1183. karme has joined
  1184. lorddavidiii has joined
  1185. lorddavidiii has left
  1186. patasca has left
  1187. marc0s has left
  1188. marc0s has joined
  1189. lorddavidiii has joined
  1190. lorddavidiii has left
  1191. marc0s has left
  1192. marc0s has joined
  1193. marc0s has left
  1194. marc0s has joined
  1195. lorddavidiii has joined
  1196. lorddavidiii has left
  1197. lorddavidiii has joined
  1198. lorddavidiii has left
  1199. undefined has left
  1200. jl4 has left
  1201. jl4 has joined
  1202. undefined has joined
  1203. lorddavidiii has joined
  1204. lorddavidiii has left
  1205. dinosaurdynasty has joined
  1206. lorddavidiii has joined
  1207. lorddavidiii has left
  1208. lorddavidiii has joined
  1209. lorddavidiii has left
  1210. Johgus78 has joined
  1211. lorddavidiii has joined
  1212. lorddavidiii has left
  1213. undefined has left
  1214. lorddavidiii has joined
  1215. lorddavidiii has left
  1216. jl4 has left
  1217. jl4 has joined
  1218. Johgus78 has left
  1219. Johgus78 has joined
  1220. lorddavidiii has joined
  1221. lorddavidiii has left
  1222. lorddavidiii has joined
  1223. lorddavidiii has left
  1224. wladmis has left
  1225. wladmis has joined
  1226. Johgus78 has left
  1227. lorddavidiii has joined
  1228. lorddavidiii has left
  1229. jl4 has left
  1230. Johgus78 has joined
  1231. jl4 has joined
  1232. jl4 has left
  1233. jl4 has joined
  1234. lorddavidiii has joined
  1235. jl4 has left
  1236. jl4 has joined
  1237. ij has left
  1238. ij has joined
  1239. jl4 has left
  1240. jl4 has joined
  1241. jl4 has left
  1242. jl4 has joined
  1243. Johgus78 has left
  1244. Johgus78 has joined
  1245. Mel has left
  1246. millesimus has left
  1247. Johgus78 has left
  1248. jl4 has left
  1249. jl4 has joined
  1250. patasca has joined
  1251. Johgus78 has joined
  1252. henrik has left
  1253. WojtekIM has left
  1254. Wojtek has left
  1255. wladmis has left
  1256. lorddavidiii has left
  1257. wladmis has joined
  1258. Christopher M0YNG has joined
  1259. undefined has joined
  1260. wladmis has left
  1261. pep. has left
  1262. kryptos has left
  1263. pep. has joined
  1264. patasca has left
  1265. undefined has left
  1266. lorddavidiii has joined
  1267. lorddavidiii has left
  1268. Mel has joined
  1269. balabol.im has left
  1270. balabol.im has joined
  1271. DP has left
  1272. patasca has joined
  1273. da Stein has left
  1274. da Stein has joined
  1275. jl4 has left
  1276. jl4 has joined
  1277. wladmis has joined
  1278. Bjarkan has joined
  1279. jl4 has left
  1280. jl4 has joined
  1281. balabol.im has left
  1282. jl4 has left
  1283. jl4 has joined
  1284. pep. has left
  1285. pep. has joined
  1286. jl4 has left
  1287. jl4 has joined
  1288. jl4 has left
  1289. jl4 has joined
  1290. wladmis has left
  1291. jl4 has left
  1292. jl4 has joined
  1293. jl4 has left
  1294. jl4 has joined
  1295. henrik has joined
  1296. Bjarkan has left
  1297. lorddavidiii has joined
  1298. wladmis has joined
  1299. patasca has left
  1300. pep. has left
  1301. jl4 has left
  1302. jl4 has joined
  1303. jl4 has left
  1304. jl4 has joined
  1305. şişio has left
  1306. balabol.im has joined
  1307. şişio has joined
  1308. wladmis has left
  1309. jl4 has left
  1310. jl4 has joined
  1311. Steven Roose has left
  1312. jl4 has left
  1313. jl4 has joined
  1314. da Stein has left
  1315. Steven Roose has joined
  1316. 404.city has joined
  1317. 4223 has left
  1318. DP has joined
  1319. jl4 has left
  1320. jl4 has joined
  1321. 4223 has joined
  1322. lorddavidiii has left
  1323. jl4 has left
  1324. jl4 has joined
  1325. jl4 has left
  1326. jl4 has joined
  1327. DP has left
  1328. 404.city has left
  1329. riyas has joined
  1330. da Stein has joined
  1331. patasca has joined
  1332. patasca has left
  1333. patasca has joined
  1334. sebastian has left
  1335. sebastian has joined
  1336. Lego has joined
  1337. Lego removed by jonas’ why not
  1338. Johgus78 has left
  1339. Johgus78 has joined
  1340. Lego has left
  1341. Johgus78 has left
  1342. Johgus78 has joined
  1343. Johgus78 has left
  1344. kryptos has joined
  1345. vanitasvitae MattJ: ^
  1346. Christopher M0YNG has left
  1347. jonas’ on his way
  1348. Johgus78 has joined
  1349. Johgus78 has left
  1350. Johgus78 has joined
  1351. Johgus78 has left
  1352. undefined has joined
  1353. a moderator removed a message This message contains inappropriate content for this forum
  1354. jl4 has left
  1355. Neko has joined
  1356. Neko Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
  1357. Neko Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
  1358. Neko Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
  1359. Neko Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
  1360. Neko Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
  1361. Neko has left
  1362. Johgus78 has joined
  1363. Johgus78 has left
  1364. Johgus78 has joined
  1365. Johgus78 has left
  1366. Johgus78 has joined
  1367. Johgus78 has left
  1368. wladmis has joined
  1369. Maranda has left
  1370. Maranda has joined
  1371. Suren has left
  1372. Johgus78 has joined
  1373. Johgus78 has left
  1374. Suren has joined
  1375. Johgus78 has joined
  1376. Johgus78 has left
  1377. wladmis has left
  1378. wladmis has joined
  1379. wladmis has left
  1380. wladmis has joined
  1381. ru_maniac has left
  1382. Bjarkan has joined
  1383. ru_maniac has joined
  1384. tom did anybody happen to catch the ip address of that one?
  1385. jonas’ I think so.
  1386. tom it happened on my server too, but i don't log such information
  1387. tom jonas’: did they use the anonymous logon componet?
  1388. jonas’ yes
  1389. Харпер s2s discloses IP of users?
  1390. tom no
  1391. tom anonymous logon only works on local services
  1392. jonas’ Харпер, no, this was someone abusing anon.xmpp.org
  1393. jonas’ so the IP address was locally available
  1394. tom nice, didn't know xmpp.org had anon services
  1395. tom too bad someone's abusing that though
  1396. tom it happens
  1397. tom jonas’: can you please share the ip with me so i can prevent that ip from using my anon as well
  1398. riyas has left
  1399. jonas’ no
  1400. jonas’ well, I probably could, I realize, because I’m in iteam, but the number I saw elsewhere indicated a Tor exit node.
  1401. jonas’ (of course)
  1402. jonas’ so it’s not gonna help anyway.
  1403. tom oh ok
  1404. tom well it does help to temporarily block those as their abused
  1405. jonas’ I expect them to switch exit nodes for each attempt
  1406. tom that way your not blocking tor, but just degrading service enough until the spammer stops
  1407. jonas’ if they go as far as using Tor and the anon service fo rthis
  1408. tom yeah but you can't choose your exit node. so the more you block temporarily the less likely and harder it gets to spam
  1409. Харпер blocking a single tor exit is silly
  1410. tom when the spam waves stops service levels return to normal
  1411. jonas’ tom, seems like a lot of resources wasted on maintaining a list of IP addresses if you could also just use a Tor-blocking RBL for a while :)
  1412. tom security is just a game of making it harder than the bad guy wants to put effort to do
  1413. tom no i don't reccomend using a tor rbl
  1414. tom also
  1415. tom this should be automated
  1416. jonas’ how? :)
  1417. tom you don't want to completely block tor
  1418. Харпер https://iplists.firehol.org/?ipset=firehol_anonymous
  1419. tom jonas’: with something like fail2ban to manage ttls
  1420. jonas’ uhh, interesting
  1421. schäfchen726 has left
  1422. jonas’ that would require feeding the fact that a message was retracted by an admin (or that a ban was placed on the IP via XMPP) into fail2ban
  1423. tom treat it like a spam score when doing email filtering
  1424. Харпер if you want to allow tor, just make an onion and require an account
  1425. jonas’ but then you’re still faced with lots of abuse you could’ve blocked by blocking the entirety Tor for a while. it’s trade-offs all the way down.
  1426. tom Харпер: what difference does having an onion make?
  1427. jonas’ tom, accountability, because the user is authenticated
  1428. tom i don't understand
  1429. tom it's still encrypted
  1430. tom you just added another layer of encryption on top of the tls
  1431. Харпер what does encryption have to do with anything?
  1432. jonas’ current situation: user -> Tor --c2s-> anon.xmpp.org --s2s-> muc.xmpp.org; bans only work based on IP addresses. proposed situation: user --c2s-> whatever.onion XMPP server --s2s-> muc.xmpp.org; bans work based on the XMPP account (which is presumably harder to change than IP addresess, and if the server operator is not acting on the abuse, we can block the entire whatever.onion)
  1433. tom what difference does saslanon and saslanon+onion make
  1434. tom or i mean
  1435. Харпер what jonas’ said
  1436. jonas’ tom, onion+non-anon sasl was the proposal
  1437. tom saslanon+torexit and saslanon+onion
  1438. tom your hosting both whatever.onion and muc.xmpp.org
  1439. jonas’ no
  1440. tom outsourcing the problem isn't fixing the problem
  1441. tom and there's still an actual need for anonymous logon
  1442. jonas’ yes, but that could then be limited to non-tor users
  1443. jonas’ this is similar to what IRC networks have been doing
  1444. tom defeats the whole purposes of anonymity
  1445. jonas’ no
  1446. jonas’ it defeats some purposes, but not all of them
  1447. tom breaks things for tor users
  1448. Харпер how?
  1449. jonas’ yes, but that’s the fault of the people abusing tor
  1450. tom if your block tor entirly
  1451. arcseconds has joined
  1452. jonas’ re anonymity: muc.xmpp.org can still not know who the user really is. the onion service also does not learn the users real IP address.
  1453. tom just just treat tor exit nodes like any other ip on the internet and do automatic temporary blocks
  1454. jonas’ it would only be blocked entirely for anon
  1455. tom there's an accessibility factor too
  1456. jonas’ that’d be feasible if fully automatic blocks were feasible, but they are not
  1457. jonas’ manual action is required to determine that an XMPP message is spam, nobody has figured an automatism so far.
  1458. tom that means the user has to know about and setup an account on a onion server
  1459. jonas’ yes
  1460. jonas’ that’s tough
  1461. jonas’ but on the other side of the equation there is the factor of limited resources of dealing with abuse.
  1462. tom that's an accessibility issue. the whole point of anonsasl was to make things more accessible to everybody
  1463. jonas’ as always
  1464. jonas’ either way
  1465. jonas’ &
  1466. patasca has left
  1467. patasca has joined
  1468. tom » <jonas’> manual action is required to determine that an XMPP message is spam, nobody has figured an automatism so far. when someone bans someone on your server, and other channels start banning them too that could be a good indicator if we had something to track
  1469. jonas’ that’s... way too slow in my opinion
  1470. jonas’ and the spam came from at least two different IP addresses in two different channels, so it’s not going to work
  1471. tom what's a reasonable time for you to metigate spam?
  1472. jonas’ (with IP based bans from tor abuse)
  1473. jonas’ but yes, we need such a protocol to exchange information about abusers in real time, however, it’s complex and this is not the venue to develop it
  1474. tom do we though?
  1475. schäfchen726 has joined
  1476. qy no.
  1477. tom torexit abusers don't happen nearly as much or to every single ip on the internet as people seam to think it does
  1478. tom my small site is probably fine
  1479. tom in fact
  1480. jonas’ tom, yes, we need such a protocol, but it’s unrelated to Tor abuse, more a general spam-wave thing
  1481. tom chinese telecom ip addresses and russian cellphones are much more of a problem for me than tor exits
  1482. tom and it's not really that big of a problem with my fail2ban sensors
  1483. tom jonas’: look at DCC and pyzor
  1484. tom (distributed checksum clearinhouse)
  1485. tom it's one of the protocols i use for that exact purpose on email
  1486. tom https://www.rhyolite.com/dcc/
  1487. jonas’ doesn’t sound like something which would help with all of that "hello" spam.
  1488. tom https://www.pyzor.org/en/latest/
  1489. Харпер on a different note why is it not possible to apply bogofilter to xmpp?
  1490. Харпер moparisthebest, said it was because messages are too short
  1491. moparisthebest to be clear that's what I recall reading somewhere, I'm no expert
  1492. Харпер not disagreeing with you, it sounds reasonable
  1493. Харпер but is it one of those things that really isn't possible, or does it happen that it might actually work really well just no one has tried
  1494. tom i don't see why you couldn't anyways
  1495. Bjarkan has left
  1496. Харпер surely someone has tried?
  1497. tom just reduce the weight of the bogo or fuzzy hash scoring system in your overwall anomaly scoring system
  1498. tom i bet like most spam metigation tech actually in use it would be beneficial as one componet as part of a large collection of things
  1499. Bjarkan has joined
  1500. mjk > messages are too short Concat multiple messages? Won't do insta-filtering, and wouldn't help with one-shot messages, but could still help by marking users as spammy
  1501. patasca has left
  1502. patasca has joined
  1503. kryptos has left
  1504. balabol.im has left
  1505. pod has left
  1506. da Stein has left
  1507. wladmis has left
  1508. Mel has left
  1509. Mel has joined
  1510. patasca has left
  1511. patasca has joined
  1512. wladmis has joined
  1513. Bjarkan has left
  1514. Huxx has left
  1515. Bjarkan has joined
  1516. da Stein has joined
  1517. alberto has left
  1518. Харпер has left
  1519. riyas has joined
  1520. Bjarkan has left
  1521. patasca has left
  1522. Bjarkan has joined
  1523. Харпер has joined
  1524. patasca has joined
  1525. undefined has left
  1526. Bjarkan has left
  1527. marc0s has left
  1528. marc0s has joined
  1529. Bjarkan has joined
  1530. riyas has left
  1531. argon3771 has left
  1532. marc has left
  1533. da Stein has left
  1534. ibikk has left
  1535. patasca has left
  1536. millesimus has joined
  1537. patasca has joined
  1538. da Stein has joined
  1539. argon3771 has joined
  1540. 4223 has left
  1541. wladmis has left
  1542. wladmis has joined
  1543. Menel has left
  1544. millesimus has left
  1545. Харпер has left
  1546. Bjarkan has left
  1547. undefined has joined
  1548. patasca has left
  1549. Харпер has joined
  1550. Bjarkan has joined
  1551. riyas has joined
  1552. marc0s has left
  1553. marc0s has joined
  1554. eevvoor has left
  1555. Bjarkan has left
  1556. karme has left
  1557. riyas has left
  1558. Bjarkan has joined
  1559. şişio has left
  1560. Bjarkan has left
  1561. şişio has joined
  1562. Jakob has left
  1563. wladmis has left
  1564. Bjarkan has joined
  1565. bakunin1848 has joined
  1566. bakunin1848 has left
  1567. wladmis has joined
  1568. Mel has left
  1569. patasca has joined
  1570. Mel has joined
  1571. neox has left
  1572. undefined has left
  1573. xorman proof of work for friend requests? is there a XEP for this already?
  1574. abidal3 has left
  1575. alien has left
  1576. Bjarkan has left
  1577. Bjarkan has joined
  1578. ross has left
  1579. ross has joined
  1580. marc0s has left
  1581. marc0s has joined
  1582. abslimit has left
  1583. patasca has left
  1584. xorman does Pleroma chat use XMPP?
  1585. mike No it's all done with activitypub over HTTPS.
  1586. patasca has joined
  1587. xorman great
  1588. xorman gives me a new idea for a round shaped object
  1589. madmalkav has left
  1590. zp1.net has left
  1591. Calvin has left
  1592. Samir Allioui has left
  1593. schäfchen726 has left
  1594. abslimit has joined
  1595. tom what is that xorman?
  1596. xorman it's intended for carrying objects
  1597. xorman gotta patent it
  1598. alex has left
  1599. xorman I shall call it "wheel"
  1600. patasca has left
  1601. ross has left
  1602. ross has joined
  1603. tom >not naming a trendy new re-implementation of a tech thing after greek mythology
  1604. tom > or purposefully misspelling it and then adding ify to the end
  1605. tom or r
  1606. riyas has joined
  1607. stpeter has left
  1608. croax has left
  1609. stpeter has joined