XMPP Service Operators - 2021-06-22

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  145. Menel

    Since only neraly only matrix.org deploys bifrost its sufficient to block "matrix.org"

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  239. throughaway123

    Reminder to everyone who's still on v2 onion, they are going to be discontinued soon and won't be well reachable through Tor. You are adviced to switch to v3.

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  243. throughaway123

    And something different: A user of xmpp.zp1.net and creep.im have been spamming and sharing conspiracy theories into a Coronavirus related MUC. I don't know how to reach the admins of those server. If you know, the users are: noname@creep.im and v-mann@xmpp.zp1.net The MUC in question is: xmpp:corona@chat.yax.im?join

  244. creep.im

    I am not going to ban anyone because of conspiracy theories

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  252. throughaway123

    It was dominating the MUC through the means of spamming and trolling to spread conspiracy ideology. You neither care about spamming?

  253. Licaon_Kter

    creep.im: ^^^ ^

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  259. throughaway123

    Ah, lol, creep.im is already on that blocklist.

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  263. Martin

    Yes, because there was spam and the admin was not reachable by that time. But seems creep.im never tried to get unlisted now that they are reachable here.

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  266. christian

    throughaway123 are you the responsible for yax.im?

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  275. throughaway123

    christian: no, sorry can't help you with that.

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  293. jonas’

    throughaway123, the room admin is not taking care of that?

  294. throughaway123

    Room admin did respond well.

  295. jonas’

    throughaway123, ok, thanks

  296. throughaway123

    (It happend during their sleeping time. Next morning they got blocked)

  297. jonas’

    at that stage I think escalation to the service operators is not necessary or helpful. especially with that coronavirus topic (as much as I despise conspiracy theories), I don’t think that a network-wide ban (deletion of the account) would be beneficial to anyone.

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  302. jonas’

    if the behaviour spreads to other places, that’s a different story obviously

  303. throughaway123

    Why do you believe it's not helpful?

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  305. jonas’

    it is a slippery slope we need to be careful around

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  307. jonas’

    in the end, I run netiher of the involved servers and if the room admin is taking care of it, it’s also fine from the search.jabber.network perspective, so these are just my private ramblings anyway

  308. jonas’

    and I need to attend to other things now :)

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  311. jonas’

    throughaway123, though, it may be useful if you posted screenshots or logs maybe of the specific things which took place, so that involved admins can make a better judgement

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  314. throughaway123

    Borrowing the slippery slope argument, keep in mind that the slippery slope argument is by itself often a slippery slope, following a bias that devalues the risk from remaining passive lower then thr risk from being active, without a rationale explanation. Do nothing because doing something has a risk too, is a slippery slope. Nevertheless I agree, that with power comes great responsibility.

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  316. throughaway123

    > throughaway123, though, it may be useful if you posted screenshots or logs maybe of the specific things which took place, so that involved admins can make a better judgement Oh, I thought the posts of the spammers are still publicly visable. They aren't?

  317. jonas’

    throughaway123, it requires joining though, which one might not watn to

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  319. throughaway123

    (Oh, ok. i guess that is due to the spam. )

  320. jonas’

    (I personally left that room because it was too much to bear mentally, so I’d prefer not to join -- I can imagine that others might want to keep their contact with that topic as low as possible, too, so screenshots help :))

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  324. throughaway123


  325. throughaway123


  326. throughaway123


  327. throughaway123


  328. throughaway123


  329. throughaway123

    (kleine auswahl)

  330. throughaway123

    (It's in german, don't know how helpfull that is)

  331. croax

    Anyway, to report this is spamming or not should only be reported by MUC admins. Why to escalade this here while we don't even know this is not in accordance with MUC policy or not. Disclaimer: I don't support these theories.

  332. croax

    Last pic is pretty clear but this is MUC admin business

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  337. throughaway123

    croax: 1. if someone spreads racist conspiracy theories I consider this to be a problem 2. if the MUC policy is against or in support of racist conspiracy theories is a different question. 3. It's not, and I said this already. The MUC is well moderated. 4. Why do you believe your input is of any use in that debate?

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  339. Ellenor Malik

    This is not where to escalate it, throughaway123. IM or mail the yax.im admins if you can't get a resolution from the MUC mods

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  341. throughaway123

    creep.im admin responded with: I don't care.

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  343. croax

    throughaway123: what? Only saying this is not the place. There could be a murder we do not operate this scope of issue.

  344. Ge0rG

    throughaway123: https://yaxim.org/yax.im/tos/ covers what is legal and what is not legal on yax.im.

  345. Ellenor Malik

    throughaway123: The MUC is on yax.im, not creep.im

  346. jonas’

    Ellenor Malik, the offender is not on yax.im though

  347. throughaway123

    jonas’: correct! :-)

  348. croax

    MUC admin can block or report to authority.

  349. Харпер

    throughaway123, how do you know the JID of the spammers if you aren't admin of that muc?

  350. Ellenor Malik

    jonas’: The chat.* admin (usually = Jabber service admin) can revoke access to terrible people, at home and overseas.

  351. croax

    But this is under admin responsabiltiy. If admin need federation help, this is the right place. But as far as I understand, that's not the case (yet)

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  353. Ellenor Malik

    so it's in-scope for Yax.

  354. croax

    But this is under admin responsabiltiy. If admin needs federation help, this is the right place. But as far as I understand, that's not the case (yet)

  355. throughaway123

    > throughaway123, how do you know the JID of the spammers if you aren't admin of that muc? it's public soon as one shares a pic.

  356. Ellenor Malik

    Their rhs is.

  357. Ellenor Malik

    Bravo, you found a chat channel that's not well moderated. Cookie?

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  359. Харпер

    hmm http upload shares jid? not just server?

  360. jonas’

    only the server

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  363. throughaway123

    Ok, here I have a question to fellow service operator: What is the correct process to limit the spread of racism, spammers, conspiracy theroies, sexism...? (Hint: if your answer is a singular solution, you do not have the required knowledge to answer the question, and so please keep the noise out)

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  367. Julian

    Ejabberd can be configured to include the jid in the get url. mod_http_upload - jid_in_url

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  369. croax

    throughaway123: there's MUC policy, server policy, law, and free speech. Guess who to report to.

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  376. throughaway123

    croax: can you please stop being a reply guy, if you're obviously not able to answer my question?

  377. throughaway123

    croax: can you please stop being a reply-guy, if you're obviously not able to answer my question?

  378. croax


  379. throughaway123


  380. MattJ

    throughaway123, it seems to me like you already made up your mind what kind of answer you want

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  382. MattJ

    I'm not sure this is the best venue for that discussion. These are complex social issues.

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  384. MattJ

    We're not likely to solve them here to everyone's satisfaction, and I'd rather not be responsible for moderating any attempt

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  386. MattJ

    Every MUC and server admin has their own policies, so if you have specific problems, it's best to reach out to them directly

  387. MattJ

    And if they're not interested in solving the problem to your satisfaction, just leave and/or block them as needed

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  394. throughaway123

    Ok, your MUC, your rules. Everyone is here welcome, as long they are MUC operator?

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  396. Ellenor Malik

    No, service op.

  397. MattJ

    The primary focus of this channel is for XMPP server operators to discuss with each other the XMPP network. This can be to resolve technical issues with federation, or share advice, tips and other relevant information about running a server.

  398. throughaway123

    (Yes sorry, what was what I ment)

  399. jonas’

    throughaway123, there are ways to get banned even from here, for sure

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  402. jonas’

    the XSF is currently in the process of establishing a CoC which will also apply to this venue I suppose.

  403. MattJ

    We don't exclude others from participating in such discussions, as long as discussion stays on this topic. In some cases we have muted non-operators for a while when it was necessary to keep the channel useful for its purpose.

  404. Харпер

    disco is used for getting member, correct?

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  410. MattJ

    Харпер, members of a MUC? No, there is a specific query for that (only available to MUC admins or when the MUC is configured to show JIDs publicly)

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    no in this room

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    by authbot

  413. MattJ

    Oh, I see

  414. MattJ

    It's based on the contact addresses advertised by your server: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0152.html

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  416. throughaway123

    > The primary focus of this channel is for XMPP server operators to discuss with each other the XMPP network. My question was about that. To discuss how to deal with such issues as a network. So I'm confused what you mean with "xmpp nerwork". Onky the technology, or the technology + the human interaction which makes it a social network?

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  422. MattJ

    Primarily the technology, but no, not only. The tools already exist to, for example, block other servers, MUCs, etc. and also to contact service admins. You indicated this is not the kind of answer you wanted, though

  423. pintosesk

    an 'xmpp network' is just used to describe the public facing XMPP client-server infrastructure, no?

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  425. MattJ

    It seems you want discussion of actual policies... however opinions will vary strongly (I know that for a fact), so we're unlikely to reach an agreement here

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  427. MattJ

    Already there is mild disagreement about whether e.g. conspiracy theories should be blocked, and at what level they should be blocked. The thing about a decentralized network is that these disagreements are okay... we all have the power to choose what services we use and what MUCs we join

  428. throughaway123

    > You indicated this is not the kind of answer you wanted, though They are fine and useful as answers, if they respect the cultural and social aspects that lead to the rise of [racism, sexism, conspiracy theories...]

  429. Ge0rG

    You can't solve social problems with technical means. This has been true since the invention of technology.

  430. MattJ

    For example, evidence I have read suggests that engaging with many conspiracy theorists is the recommended route over shutting them out (which just reinforces their belief that they are right)

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  432. MattJ

    But this is not the venue to really decide that, it's up to service and MUC admins to decide for themselves what policy they will follow

  433. throughaway123

    > You can't solve social problems with technical means. This has been true since the invention of technology. Technolgy impacts social interactions. There's a reason that by the means of youtube and facebook a new rise of conspiracy theory and a new rise of facists can be observed.

  434. MattJ

    In a coronavirus news channel, I can totally see a ban on non-authoritative sources making sense, for example. A more informal discussion channel might prefer to engage such people instead.

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  436. Ge0rG

    throughaway123: well, you can make social problems worse with technical means, that's true.

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  438. pintosesk

    > opinions vary strongly I'd think this would be more the place to refine XMPP implementation as a whole or a specific policy one already has in mind, yeah. I'm not necessarily here to tell you what you ought to do, throughaway123, so much as give conjecture on how it might be well done. I suspect many here are of the same disposition, beyond kindly informing other hosts of spam sources and such *strictly* janitorial matters.

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  442. pintosesk

    where the harm is not merely social, but infrastructurally damaging.

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  446. throughaway123

    > For example, evidence I have read suggests that engaging with many conspiracy theorists is the recommended route over shutting them out (which just reinforces their belief that they are right) That is from this one singular study? (I saw it being shared some time ago in some MUC, can't remember exactly. The assumption that engaging is more effective then shutting them down, is false, because it depends on the circumstances. If you want to push out professional trolling effort that aim to shift the overtone window (yes, facists and conspiracy ideologists educate themselves about such means of communication) you push them out, but engage with the rest, for example.

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  450. pintosesk

    Providing an extensible service that suits wide needs via modularity; that is XMPP to me. Taking social footholds is beyond that scope imo, and should be left to individual administration (or modules ;D)

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  453. pintosesk

    Providing an extensible service that suits wide needs via modularity; that is XMPP to me. Taking social footholds at the core level is beyond that scope imo, and should be left to individual administration (or modules ;D)

  454. throughaway123

    > throughaway123: well, you can make social problems worse with technical means, that's true. You impact it, for the better or the worse. (What's better/worse obviosly depends on eachs individual position).

  455. MattJ

    throughaway123, right, and this is exactly the thing that I *don't* want to debate in this chat :)

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  458. throughaway123

    UX, it's about UX

  459. MattJ

    Maybe you are right that the study is false, maybe you are wrong - but we're not going to agree here

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  461. MattJ

    (I mean "we" collectively)

  462. pintosesk

    > throughaway123 wrote: > UX, it's about UX UX?

  463. pintosesk

    In what way?

  464. throughaway123

    user experience

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  467. MattJ

    I personally don't know what the right answer is to dealing with conspiracy theorists, but I do know how to contact XMPP admins and block servers, if that's what you want to do

  468. MattJ

    But you have to respect that some people may not believe that is the right course of action

  469. pintosesk

    > shut them down This isn't a social steering committee, imo.

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  471. throughaway123

    UX will differ depening if service operator and xmpp developers take countering conspiracy theories, sexism, racism as an important part to improofe UX. It will impact code, it will impact admin behaviour.

  472. pintosesk

    his is an infrastructure chat. These people pose a social threat to you, not infrastructure.

  473. pintosesk

    This is an infrastructure chat. These people pose a social threat to you, not infrastructure.

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  477. throughaway123

    (The infastructure as no meaning, without the social interaction)

  478. pintosesk

    And you need more than XMPP to properly implement your censorship. Call your gov. surveillance agency or the FCC, or something.

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  480. pintosesk

    > throughaway123 wrote: > (The infastructure as no meaning, without the social interaction) Then you don't need to go through us, the XMPP operators, because we are not the independent variable here.

  481. pintosesk

    Your princess is in another castle.

  482. throughaway123

    (I don't call for cencorship. I call to think about how our admin and development decisions can have an impact on [social things)

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  484. Holger

    throughaway123: And you've been told how this topic is off-topic in here.

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  486. pintosesk

    And how do you plan to act based on that thinking? 'shutting down' people is censorship.

  487. pintosesk

    no slicing this pie differently.

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  489. Ge0rG

    If everybody is good at detecting and ignoring racism and propaganda, then we don't need to implement any technical measures. All we need to do is elect governments that put proper education first, and then wait for 40 years.

  490. Kris

    make a bot that picks up on certain conspiracy phrases and ridicules them. There, fixed that problem for you /s

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  492. pintosesk

    If you aren't going to speculate on how to infrastructurally implement your wish here, not just socially, your result will be partial and your desires unfulfilled. At least brainstorm some sort of module for this, y'know? For example: a room or message keyword field exposed to the user.

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  497. throughaway123

    > throughaway123: And you've been told how this topic is off-topic in here. I've been first told it's offtopic, then explained how it's ontopic, to then again it would be offtopic. The reasoning is not consitancy, so I have trouble to understand what it ok to say, and what not. All I notice that I'm not welcomed, but I am unable to use the presented arguments to form a logical reasoning out of it. (Sorry that might be my autism. Humans confuse me....)

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  500. pintosesk

    a bonus of such a module would be quick search of messages within a certain range, and if the keywords display near the body onscreen, one might even remember the simple keyword when looking back for a long ago message.

  501. pintosesk

    for rooms, it could display near the topic and orient discussion more strictly.

  502. pintosesk


  503. Kris

    pintosesk, such specifc implementation topics can better be discussed in a general muc like chat@joinjabber.org or the specific server's mucs if you want to talk actual module creation

  504. throughaway123

    (See, now people engage on how a XEP meeting my need could look like. Am I acting against the MUC rules if I engage with it...it's hell of a confusion to me)

  505. pintosesk


  506. Holger

    throughaway123: Issues/questions regarding the infrastructure itself ("why is s2s with jabber.org broken?", "how do I block jabber.org?") are on-topic. Issues/questions regarding the impact of infrastructure decisions on social things ("will blocking jabber.org result in a desired social outcome"?) are off-topic.

  507. pintosesk

    So this is purely a janitorial chat then.

  508. Kris

    server admin, yes

  509. MattJ

    Yes, discussions of policies are off-topic, and discussions of client UX are off-topic (this channel is not for client developers) and discussions of XEPs are generally off-topic (this room is not about general XMPP protocol development)

  510. Kris

    don't call them glorified janitors 😉

  511. pintosesk

    Gotcha. Well, throughaway123 , sorry to mislead you, there actually really is nothing constructive you can say here, but if you care to join me in chat@joinjabber.org, you might be more satisfied.

  512. riyas has joined

  513. pintosesk

    Thanks, by the by, Kris .

  514. pintosesk

    > glorified janitors I guess it's more like plumbing or a post office'

  515. pintosesk

    > glorified janitors I guess it's more like plumbing or a post office.

  516. Martin

    authbot: help

  517. MattJ

    authbot cannot help you, Martin

  518. Martin


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  520. throughaway123

    Ok, I think finally I understand what this MUC is for. Please update your MUC description acording to your expectations. That confusion easily leads to frustration and a waste of time.

  521. Martin

    TIL authbot.

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  523. Martin

    How does it work? Muting people who spam after joining?

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  525. MattJ

    throughaway123, I think the topic is clear enough for a topic, but we are working on a more throrough page explaining this channel for the xmpp.org site

  526. jonas’

    Martin, it requests contact info. if real jid == relevant contact && affiliation == none, set affiliation to member

  527. jonas’

    Martin, it requests contact info of the domain of the real jid. if real jid == relevant contact && affiliation == none, set affiliation to member

  528. Martin

    Ah, sweet.

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  530. jonas’

    (on join)

  531. pintosesk

    you might want to change the topic from 'discussions between XMPP server operators about the XMPP network' to '[...] about maintenance and status of the XMPP network'

  532. pintosesk

    so as to clarify that general discussion of the network itself is off topic.

  533. Martin

    I want a 'verified server operator' blue tick. 😂

  534. MattJ

    Maybe one day we can finish the hats XEP and you can have one, it would indeed be perfect for this chat :)

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  537. Kris

    just make people members and mute guests?

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  539. MattJ

    I (and authbot) do make people members, but not everyone has XEP-0152 enabled or joins from a JID listed there if they do

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  541. jonas’

    (nor should they have to)

  542. MattJ

    and I think this is a valid place for non operators to e.g. ask for help reaching an admin of a particular service, or other enquiries that we might be able to help with

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  544. MattJ

    Oh yes, I meant that

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  547. croax

    MattJ: maybe to create a dedicated MUC for this

  548. MattJ

    For what?

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  550. throughaway123

    (It's obviously ok to be offtopic from time to time, and the following question is just to verify that I understand the rules of this MUC correctly: you're all offtopic atm?)

  551. MattJ

    if you mean for seeking admins of a particular service, that's basically saying that admins should join both rooms

  552. MattJ

    and we (I, at least) have enough MUCs already

  553. throughaway123

    (It's obviously ok to be offtopic from time to time, and the following question is just to verify that I understand the rules of this MUC correctly: you're all offtopic atm? ((sorry if that'a all obvious to you, can't help with my autism))

  554. MattJ

    throughaway123, yes, kinda. We're discussing the rules of the room... not really a better place to do that :)

  555. MattJ

    We had no problems when it was small and there were ~30 people here who just got along fine

  556. pintosesk

    growing pains?

  557. MattJ

    But nowadays we have many people, new people, and I think it has grown faster than the "community"

  558. croax

    There could be a MUC providing help for users on general XMPP service questions. But maintenance of federation and technical advices is not same subject to me.

  559. MattJ

    As I said, we're working on publishing some guidelines

  560. Holger

    The XMPP hype is getting out of hands.

  561. MattJ

    croax, this has never before been a "strictly maintenance and status discussions" chat

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  563. croax

    MattJ: yes not saying this is or has to be. Just a wish :-)

  564. MattJ

    I only started being strict about staying on topic in recent months because of things getting out of hand

  565. MattJ

    If everyone really wishes it to become that, it can be

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  568. MattJ

    and then it may make sense to close it entirely and have it be invite/registration only, after verifying you are an operator

  569. MattJ

    I don't know if that's the best route, but... meh

  570. pintosesk

    This seems to be a maintenance and status discussions chat with select benefits to me.

  571. Ellenor Malik


  572. pintosesk

    I can't say much more than that.

  573. MattJ

    Well it's clear that some people these days *expect* it to be that

  574. Ellenor Malik

    Can there be an operators-meta@ for this kind of bikeshedding?

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  577. MattJ

    Ellenor Malik, not if I'm a moderator there, and I don't know who else would volunteer

  578. MattJ

    Anyone is free to go and make one anywhere, of course

  579. Ellenor Malik


  580. Ellenor Malik

    > MattJ wrote: > and then it may make sense to close it entirely and have it be invite/registration only, after verifying you are an operator > I don't know if that's the best route, but... meh Doesn't that possibly shut out new operators?

  581. MattJ

    Yes, which is why I don't really like it

  582. MattJ

    I also think it's fine and valuable to have an open place where non-operators can reach operators

  583. MattJ

    But maybe most other operators don't feel that way

  584. jonas’

    MattJ, I think making everyone happy is not going to work. So if anything, the room should be a place you (or whoever has that role, the XSF, ...) is happy owning with.

  585. jonas’

    if most other operators disagree with that, someone can step up and improve on it, one way or another.

  586. Bjarkan has joined

  587. MattJ

    jonas’, well, I get complaints when I enforce strict on-topic discussions, I get complaints when I don't ban people immediately for being off-topic... I'm not sure how happy I'll ever get :)

  588. jonas’

    though I don’t think that a "closed" group where at the same time all XMPP operator have access is especially useful.

  589. Ellenor Malik

    I consider myself to be among new service operators. I have less than 5 years' experience in this field.

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  592. pintosesk

    You don't have to ban people immediately, but drawing a clear line between on and off topic is best to make non regulars or different crowds at ease here.

  593. pintosesk

    Otherwise we can't tell if we're dancing on your head or not.

  594. Holger

    I could imagine (a) everyone being happy with having non-ops reaching out, (b) most being happy with occasional off-topic smalltalk, and (c) most being (very) unhappy with endless discussions on random political topics. Problem is a policy that takes care of (c) easily conflicts with (a) and (b).

  595. Харпер has joined

  596. MattJ

    Yes, (b) is the problem, because it used to be fine when it was not controversial discussions, but these days we get more and more controversial discussions coming up... and the only impartial way to deal with it is to ban the lot

  597. Ge0rG

    IMHO this place should be primarily for reaching out to server operators about technical issues. We have no technology to solve social issues and thus I'm fully okay with flagging them as off topic, and muting repeat offenders

  598. MattJ

    Otherwise we lose the real value of this room

  599. Ellenor Malik

    The fact I've not quit completely falls to a mixture of causes: the welcoming and apparently collegial nature of places like here, stubbornness after banishment from support chats, and an ideological interest in ensuring a future for the Jabber federation.

  600. pintosesk

    I think it's possible to resolve the conflict so long as nobody makes smalltalk with any intent or motive behind it.

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  602. MattJ

    pintosesk, but I don't want to be the judge of whether people have intent or motive... it just puts me in an awkward position

  603. pintosesk

    So just, 'if you want something from us, it better be about our servers and not us as people' would do I think

  604. MattJ

    I end up with PMs from people who think I am personally opposed to them, and unfair

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  607. Ge0rG

    MattJ: that's the expected effect of all moderation

  608. pintosesk

    you just gotta make it clear that the smalltalk is pleasant talk and not a therapy session or thinktank, the latter being what I thought it might partially have been.

  609. Харпер has left

  610. MattJ

    I want to preserve what we had, which is what is in the topic... a place for server operators to discuss the network in a civil manner

  611. MattJ

    But I believe that is becoming increasingly impossible as the channel grows

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  613. pintosesk

    I feel like you're being a bit condemning about it, although perhaps I'm just new to the phenomenon.

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  615. pintosesk

    I don't think there's much else left for me to say about it though.

  616. pintosesk

    How's the price of gas?

  617. MattJ

    This channel has been one of the most unpleasant parts of my participation in XMPP in recent months

  618. MattJ

    So yeah

  619. jonas’

    "pintosesk, who cares, don’t drive a car or do you hate the planet?!"

  620. jonas’

    (just to drive the point home, I guess :()

  621. Bjarkan has joined

  622. pintosesk

    Hovercars or bust

  623. pintosesk

    but I digress

  624. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I think you are doing a great job with the moderation here

  625. MattJ

    Ge0rG, sure, some people think so. Others don't :)

  626. pintosesk

    I don't think you're a bad fellow.

  627. jonas’

    what bothers me most is that this is taking valuable time from MattJ :)

  628. MattJ

    and I know I'll never please everyone. But I don't really want server operators leaving because of whatever policies we decide upon here.

  629. MattJ

    Obviously some will, but it's mostly valuable if we can keep it useful for its original purpose

  630. MattJ

    I think the next step is to get that page up on xmpp.org, and then we have some concrete points on record that we can agree to and/or iterate upon

  631. Ge0rG

    MattJ: if the goal of this place is to have server operators available for civil discourse, you should weigh the feedback from them higher, or you'll end up without them

  632. pintosesk

    I don't think anything or one of value will leave is you say 'no ad hominems or unsolicited requests for personal reform'.

  633. MattJ

    Ge0rG, indeed, I try

  634. pintosesk

    or something like that.

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  636. Ellenor Malik

    I'm just a soft animal

  637. pintosesk

    that's cool

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  641. Харпер

    My hat has arrived

  642. jonas’

    nice hat

  643. pintosesk

    nice (mystery) hat

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  662. throughaway123

    > I want to preserve what we had, which is what is in the topic... a place for server operators to discuss the network in a civil manner So either I'm again confused what this room is for, or you just wish to preserve an old status quo that was: I don't care about minorities, I don't care about white supremacy and sexism, please I want my privilidged comfort being protected. What ever, I understand I'm not welcomed here. Bye.

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  666. MattJ

    and there we go

  667. Ge0rG

    MattJ: you can't make it fit for the people who *want* to misunderstand you

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  673. croax

    We can build best message protocols, it seems humans have built-in firewalls and hardcoded stanza length limits. So do I.

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  725. rob

    Hopefully I didn't miss anything important 😵‍💫

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  727. Martin

    MattJ: > I (and authbot) do make people members, but not everyone has XEP-0152 enabled or joins from a JID listed there if they do 0157?

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  729. Харпер


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  735. Licaon_Kter

    So I should join with the user admin mentioned in 157 to get upgraded to "member"?

  736. Харпер


  737. Харпер

    you can add multiple too

  738. Martin

    Licaon_Kter: You are already member. ;-)

  739. Licaon_Kter

    Martin: because I asked at one point when the room went members only, sameish offtopic iirc

  740. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, that’ll stay, authbot is only an aid for the room owners to not have to allowlist everyone manually :)

  741. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, that’ll stay, authbot is only an aid for the room owners to not have to allowlist *everyone* manually :)

  742. Licaon_Kter


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  751. Licaon_Kter

    FYI in the Offtopic room we have lots of fun being ontopic, so if you wanna redirect them to xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join feel free. /end of advertisment

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  875. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, not sure where else I have you, do you intend to incorproate the feedback in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1062 ?

  876. Licaon_Kter

    jonas’: yes, but lack of time, also was afk for the week.

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  879. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, ok, just wanted to make sure, take your time :)

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  948. 4223

    MattJ: thank you!

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  952. 4223

    > MattJ: you can't make it fit for the people who *want* to misunderstand you Troll from first post. There is nothing to understand. Comes up with different nicks in several mucs.

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  963. Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir

    4223: Called Morph?

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  973. qy

    Should tell stories about morph to non-xmpp folk. Irritating though he is, he's basically folklore now, and that would drag in users

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  977. qy

    Everyone loves a herobrine

  978. ross has joined

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  980. qy

    Especially a real-life schizophrenic one

  981. 4223

    Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir: don't know, the first friendly but never ending questions, mixed with more and more agressive noise reminds me off different nicks (but I do not remind the exact nicks).

  982. lorddavidiii has joined

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  984. MattJ

    I am sure conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net welcomes your morph discussions :)

  985. Licaon_Kter


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    MattJ: /me 🤐

  988. Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir

    qy: ??

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  990. Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir


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  992. Martin

    > I am sure conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net welcomes your morph discussions :) No more morphing please. 🙂

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  1337. Lego removed by jonas’

    why not

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  1345. vanitasvitae

    MattJ: ^

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  1347. jonas’

    on his way

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  1353. a moderator removed a message

    This message contains inappropriate content for this forum

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  1356. Neko

    Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!

  1357. Neko

    Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!

  1358. Neko

    Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!

  1359. Neko

    Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!

  1360. Neko

    Remember this name MORPH! All of you will pray! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!

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  1384. tom

    did anybody happen to catch the ip address of that one?

  1385. jonas’

    I think so.

  1386. tom

    it happened on my server too, but i don't log such information

  1387. tom

    jonas’: did they use the anonymous logon componet?

  1388. jonas’


  1389. Харпер

    s2s discloses IP of users?

  1390. tom


  1391. tom

    anonymous logon only works on local services

  1392. jonas’

    Харпер, no, this was someone abusing anon.xmpp.org

  1393. jonas’

    so the IP address was locally available

  1394. tom

    nice, didn't know xmpp.org had anon services

  1395. tom

    too bad someone's abusing that though

  1396. tom

    it happens

  1397. tom

    jonas’: can you please share the ip with me so i can prevent that ip from using my anon as well

  1398. riyas has left

  1399. jonas’


  1400. jonas’

    well, I probably could, I realize, because I’m in iteam, but the number I saw elsewhere indicated a Tor exit node.

  1401. jonas’

    (of course)

  1402. jonas’

    so it’s not gonna help anyway.

  1403. tom

    oh ok

  1404. tom

    well it does help to temporarily block those as their abused

  1405. jonas’

    I expect them to switch exit nodes for each attempt

  1406. tom

    that way your not blocking tor, but just degrading service enough until the spammer stops

  1407. jonas’

    if they go as far as using Tor and the anon service fo rthis

  1408. tom

    yeah but you can't choose your exit node. so the more you block temporarily the less likely and harder it gets to spam

  1409. Харпер

    blocking a single tor exit is silly

  1410. tom

    when the spam waves stops service levels return to normal

  1411. jonas’

    tom, seems like a lot of resources wasted on maintaining a list of IP addresses if you could also just use a Tor-blocking RBL for a while :)

  1412. tom

    security is just a game of making it harder than the bad guy wants to put effort to do

  1413. tom

    no i don't reccomend using a tor rbl

  1414. tom


  1415. tom

    this should be automated

  1416. jonas’

    how? :)

  1417. tom

    you don't want to completely block tor

  1418. Харпер


  1419. tom

    jonas’: with something like fail2ban to manage ttls

  1420. jonas’

    uhh, interesting

  1421. schäfchen726 has left

  1422. jonas’

    that would require feeding the fact that a message was retracted by an admin (or that a ban was placed on the IP via XMPP) into fail2ban

  1423. tom

    treat it like a spam score when doing email filtering

  1424. Харпер

    if you want to allow tor, just make an onion and require an account

  1425. jonas’

    but then you’re still faced with lots of abuse you could’ve blocked by blocking the entirety Tor for a while. it’s trade-offs all the way down.

  1426. tom

    Харпер: what difference does having an onion make?

  1427. jonas’

    tom, accountability, because the user is authenticated

  1428. tom

    i don't understand

  1429. tom

    it's still encrypted

  1430. tom

    you just added another layer of encryption on top of the tls

  1431. Харпер

    what does encryption have to do with anything?

  1432. jonas’

    current situation: user -> Tor --c2s-> anon.xmpp.org --s2s-> muc.xmpp.org; bans only work based on IP addresses. proposed situation: user --c2s-> whatever.onion XMPP server --s2s-> muc.xmpp.org; bans work based on the XMPP account (which is presumably harder to change than IP addresess, and if the server operator is not acting on the abuse, we can block the entire whatever.onion)

  1433. tom

    what difference does saslanon and saslanon+onion make

  1434. tom

    or i mean

  1435. Харпер

    what jonas’ said

  1436. jonas’

    tom, onion+non-anon sasl was the proposal

  1437. tom

    saslanon+torexit and saslanon+onion

  1438. tom

    your hosting both whatever.onion and muc.xmpp.org

  1439. jonas’


  1440. tom

    outsourcing the problem isn't fixing the problem

  1441. tom

    and there's still an actual need for anonymous logon

  1442. jonas’

    yes, but that could then be limited to non-tor users

  1443. jonas’

    this is similar to what IRC networks have been doing

  1444. tom

    defeats the whole purposes of anonymity

  1445. jonas’


  1446. jonas’

    it defeats some purposes, but not all of them

  1447. tom

    breaks things for tor users

  1448. Харпер


  1449. jonas’

    yes, but that’s the fault of the people abusing tor

  1450. tom

    if your block tor entirly

  1451. arcseconds has joined

  1452. jonas’

    re anonymity: muc.xmpp.org can still not know who the user really is. the onion service also does not learn the users real IP address.

  1453. tom

    just just treat tor exit nodes like any other ip on the internet and do automatic temporary blocks

  1454. jonas’

    it would only be blocked entirely for anon

  1455. tom

    there's an accessibility factor too

  1456. jonas’

    that’d be feasible if fully automatic blocks were feasible, but they are not

  1457. jonas’

    manual action is required to determine that an XMPP message is spam, nobody has figured an automatism so far.

  1458. tom

    that means the user has to know about and setup an account on a onion server

  1459. jonas’


  1460. jonas’

    that’s tough

  1461. jonas’

    but on the other side of the equation there is the factor of limited resources of dealing with abuse.

  1462. tom

    that's an accessibility issue. the whole point of anonsasl was to make things more accessible to everybody

  1463. jonas’

    as always

  1464. jonas’

    either way

  1465. jonas’ &

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  1468. tom

    » <jonas’> manual action is required to determine that an XMPP message is spam, nobody has figured an automatism so far. when someone bans someone on your server, and other channels start banning them too that could be a good indicator if we had something to track

  1469. jonas’

    that’s... way too slow in my opinion

  1470. jonas’

    and the spam came from at least two different IP addresses in two different channels, so it’s not going to work

  1471. tom

    what's a reasonable time for you to metigate spam?

  1472. jonas’

    (with IP based bans from tor abuse)

  1473. jonas’

    but yes, we need such a protocol to exchange information about abusers in real time, however, it’s complex and this is not the venue to develop it

  1474. tom

    do we though?

  1475. schäfchen726 has joined

  1476. qy


  1477. tom

    torexit abusers don't happen nearly as much or to every single ip on the internet as people seam to think it does

  1478. tom

    my small site is probably fine

  1479. tom

    in fact

  1480. jonas’

    tom, yes, we need such a protocol, but it’s unrelated to Tor abuse, more a general spam-wave thing

  1481. tom

    chinese telecom ip addresses and russian cellphones are much more of a problem for me than tor exits

  1482. tom

    and it's not really that big of a problem with my fail2ban sensors

  1483. tom

    jonas’: look at DCC and pyzor

  1484. tom

    (distributed checksum clearinhouse)

  1485. tom

    it's one of the protocols i use for that exact purpose on email

  1486. tom


  1487. jonas’

    doesn’t sound like something which would help with all of that "hello" spam.

  1488. tom


  1489. Харпер

    on a different note why is it not possible to apply bogofilter to xmpp?

  1490. Харпер

    moparisthebest, said it was because messages are too short

  1491. moparisthebest

    to be clear that's what I recall reading somewhere, I'm no expert

  1492. Харпер

    not disagreeing with you, it sounds reasonable

  1493. Харпер

    but is it one of those things that really isn't possible, or does it happen that it might actually work really well just no one has tried

  1494. tom

    i don't see why you couldn't anyways

  1495. Bjarkan has left

  1496. Харпер

    surely someone has tried?

  1497. tom

    just reduce the weight of the bogo or fuzzy hash scoring system in your overwall anomaly scoring system

  1498. tom

    i bet like most spam metigation tech actually in use it would be beneficial as one componet as part of a large collection of things

  1499. Bjarkan has joined

  1500. mjk

    > messages are too short Concat multiple messages? Won't do insta-filtering, and wouldn't help with one-shot messages, but could still help by marking users as spammy

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  1573. xorman

    proof of work for friend requests? is there a XEP for this already?

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  1584. xorman

    does Pleroma chat use XMPP?

  1585. mike

    No it's all done with activitypub over HTTPS.

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  1587. xorman


  1588. xorman

    gives me a new idea for a round shaped object

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  1595. tom

    what is that xorman?

  1596. xorman

    it's intended for carrying objects

  1597. xorman

    gotta patent it

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  1599. xorman

    I shall call it "wheel"

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  1603. tom

    >not naming a trendy new re-implementation of a tech thing after greek mythology

  1604. tom

    > or purposefully misspelling it and then adding ify to the end

  1605. tom

    or r

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