MenelSince only neraly only matrix.org deploys bifrost its sufficient to block "matrix.org"
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throughaway123Reminder to everyone who's still on v2 onion, they are going to be discontinued soon and won't be well reachable through Tor. You are adviced to switch to v3.
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throughaway123And something different:
A user of xmpp.zp1.net and creep.im have been spamming and sharing conspiracy theories into a Coronavirus related MUC.
I don't know how to reach the admins of those server. If you know, the users are:
noname@creep.im and v-mann@xmpp.zp1.net
The MUC in question is:
xmpp:corona@chat.yax.im?join
creep.imI am not going to ban anyone because of conspiracy theories
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throughaway123It was dominating the MUC through the means of spamming and trolling to spread conspiracy ideology.
You neither care about spamming?
throughaway123Ah, lol, creep.im is already on that blocklist.
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MartinYes, because there was spam and the admin was not reachable by that time. But seems creep.im never tried to get unlisted now that they are reachable here.
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christianthroughaway123 are you the responsible for yax.im?
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throughaway123christian: no, sorry can't help you with that.
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jonas’throughaway123, the room admin is not taking care of that?
throughaway123Room admin did respond well.
jonas’throughaway123, ok, thanks
throughaway123(It happend during their sleeping time. Next morning they got blocked)
jonas’at that stage I think escalation to the service operators is not necessary or helpful. especially with that coronavirus topic (as much as I despise conspiracy theories), I don’t think that a network-wide ban (deletion of the account) would be beneficial to anyone.
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jonas’if the behaviour spreads to other places, that’s a different story obviously
throughaway123Why do you believe it's not helpful?
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jonas’it is a slippery slope we need to be careful around
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jonas’in the end, I run netiher of the involved servers and if the room admin is taking care of it, it’s also fine from the search.jabber.network perspective, so these are just my private ramblings anyway
jonas’and I need to attend to other things now :)
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jonas’throughaway123, though, it may be useful if you posted screenshots or logs maybe of the specific things which took place, so that involved admins can make a better judgement
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throughaway123Borrowing the slippery slope argument, keep in mind that the slippery slope argument is by itself often a slippery slope, following a bias that devalues the risk from remaining passive lower then thr risk from being active, without a rationale explanation.
Do nothing because doing something has a risk too, is a slippery slope.
Nevertheless I agree, that with power comes great responsibility.
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throughaway123> throughaway123, though, it may be useful if you posted screenshots or logs maybe of the specific things which took place, so that involved admins can make a better judgement
Oh, I thought the posts of the spammers are still publicly visable. They aren't?
jonas’throughaway123, it requires joining though, which one might not watn to
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throughaway123(Oh, ok. i guess that is due to the spam. )
jonas’(I personally left that room because it was too much to bear mentally, so I’d prefer not to join -- I can imagine that others might want to keep their contact with that topic as low as possible, too, so screenshots help :))
throughaway123(It's in german, don't know how helpfull that is)
croaxAnyway, to report this is spamming or not should only be reported by MUC admins. Why to escalade this here while we don't even know this is not in accordance with MUC policy or not.
Disclaimer: I don't support these theories.
croaxLast pic is pretty clear but this is MUC admin business
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throughaway123croax:
1. if someone spreads racist conspiracy theories I consider this to be a problem
2. if the MUC policy is against or in support of racist conspiracy theories is a different question.
3. It's not, and I said this already. The MUC is well moderated.
4. Why do you believe your input is of any use in that debate?
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Ellenor MalikThis is not where to escalate it, throughaway123. IM or mail the yax.im admins if you can't get a resolution from the MUC mods
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throughaway123creep.im admin responded with:
I don't care.
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croaxthroughaway123: what? Only saying this is not the place. There could be a murder we do not operate this scope of issue.
Ge0rGthroughaway123: https://yaxim.org/yax.im/tos/ covers what is legal and what is not legal on yax.im.
Ellenor Malikthroughaway123: The MUC is on yax.im, not creep.im
jonas’Ellenor Malik, the offender is not on yax.im though
throughaway123jonas’: correct! :-)
croaxMUC admin can block or report to authority.
Харперthroughaway123, how do you know the JID of the spammers if you aren't admin of that muc?
Ellenor Malikjonas’: The chat.* admin (usually = Jabber service admin) can revoke access to terrible people, at home and overseas.
croaxBut this is under admin responsabiltiy. If admin need federation help, this is the right place. But as far as I understand, that's not the case (yet)✎
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Ellenor Malikso it's in-scope for Yax.
croaxBut this is under admin responsabiltiy. If admin needs federation help, this is the right place. But as far as I understand, that's not the case (yet) ✏
throughaway123> throughaway123, how do you know the JID of the spammers if you aren't admin of that muc?
it's public soon as one shares a pic.
Ellenor MalikTheir rhs is.
Ellenor MalikBravo, you found a chat channel that's not well moderated. Cookie?
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Харперhmm http upload shares jid? not just server?
jonas’only the server
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throughaway123Ok, here I have a question to fellow service operator:
What is the correct process to limit the spread of racism, spammers, conspiracy theroies, sexism...?
(Hint: if your answer is a singular solution, you do not have the required knowledge to answer the question, and so please keep the noise out)
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JulianEjabberd can be configured to include the jid in the get url. mod_http_upload - jid_in_url
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croaxthroughaway123: there's MUC policy, server policy, law, and free speech. Guess who to report to.
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throughaway123croax: can you please stop being a reply guy, if you're obviously not able to answer my question?✎
throughaway123croax: can you please stop being a reply-guy, if you're obviously not able to answer my question? ✏
croaxRight
throughaway123Thanks.
MattJthroughaway123, it seems to me like you already made up your mind what kind of answer you want
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MattJI'm not sure this is the best venue for that discussion. These are complex social issues.
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MattJWe're not likely to solve them here to everyone's satisfaction, and I'd rather not be responsible for moderating any attempt
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MattJEvery MUC and server admin has their own policies, so if you have specific problems, it's best to reach out to them directly
MattJAnd if they're not interested in solving the problem to your satisfaction, just leave and/or block them as needed
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throughaway123Ok, your MUC, your rules.
Everyone is here welcome, as long they are MUC operator?
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Ellenor MalikNo, service op.
MattJThe primary focus of this channel is for XMPP server operators to discuss with each other the XMPP network. This can be to resolve technical issues with federation, or share advice, tips and other relevant information about running a server.
throughaway123(Yes sorry, what was what I ment)
jonas’throughaway123, there are ways to get banned even from here, for sure
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jonas’the XSF is currently in the process of establishing a CoC which will also apply to this venue I suppose.
MattJWe don't exclude others from participating in such discussions, as long as discussion stays on this topic. In some cases we have muted non-operators for a while when it was necessary to keep the channel useful for its purpose.
Харперdisco is used for getting member, correct?
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MattJХарпер, members of a MUC? No, there is a specific query for that (only available to MUC admins or when the MUC is configured to show JIDs publicly)
Харперno in this room
Харперby authbot
MattJOh, I see
MattJIt's based on the contact addresses advertised by your server: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0152.html
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throughaway123> The primary focus of this channel is for XMPP server operators to discuss with each other the XMPP network.
My question was about that. To discuss how to deal with such issues as a network. So I'm confused what you mean with "xmpp nerwork". Onky the technology, or the technology + the human interaction which makes it a social network?
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MattJPrimarily the technology, but no, not only. The tools already exist to, for example, block other servers, MUCs, etc. and also to contact service admins. You indicated this is not the kind of answer you wanted, though
pintoseskan 'xmpp network' is just used to describe the public facing XMPP client-server infrastructure, no?
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MattJIt seems you want discussion of actual policies... however opinions will vary strongly (I know that for a fact), so we're unlikely to reach an agreement here
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MattJAlready there is mild disagreement about whether e.g. conspiracy theories should be blocked, and at what level they should be blocked. The thing about a decentralized network is that these disagreements are okay... we all have the power to choose what services we use and what MUCs we join
throughaway123> You indicated this is not the kind of answer you wanted, though
They are fine and useful as answers, if they respect the cultural and social aspects that lead to the rise of [racism, sexism, conspiracy theories...]
Ge0rGYou can't solve social problems with technical means. This has been true since the invention of technology.
MattJFor example, evidence I have read suggests that engaging with many conspiracy theorists is the recommended route over shutting them out (which just reinforces their belief that they are right)
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MattJBut this is not the venue to really decide that, it's up to service and MUC admins to decide for themselves what policy they will follow
throughaway123> You can't solve social problems with technical means. This has been true since the invention of technology.
Technolgy impacts social interactions.
There's a reason that by the means of youtube and facebook a new rise of conspiracy theory and a new rise of facists can be observed.
MattJIn a coronavirus news channel, I can totally see a ban on non-authoritative sources making sense, for example. A more informal discussion channel might prefer to engage such people instead.
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Ge0rGthroughaway123: well, you can make social problems worse with technical means, that's true.
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pintosesk> opinions vary strongly
I'd think this would be more the place to refine XMPP implementation as a whole or a specific policy one already has in mind, yeah.
I'm not necessarily here to tell you what you ought to do, throughaway123, so much as give conjecture on how it might be well done.
I suspect many here are of the same disposition, beyond kindly informing other hosts of spam sources and such *strictly* janitorial matters.
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pintoseskwhere the harm is not merely social, but infrastructurally damaging.
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throughaway123> For example, evidence I have read suggests that engaging with many conspiracy theorists is the recommended route over shutting them out (which just reinforces their belief that they are right)
That is from this one singular study? (I saw it being shared some time ago in some MUC, can't remember exactly.
The assumption that engaging is more effective then shutting them down, is false, because it depends on the circumstances. If you want to push out professional trolling effort that aim to shift the overtone window (yes, facists and conspiracy ideologists educate themselves about such means of communication) you push them out, but engage with the rest, for example.
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pintoseskProviding an extensible service that suits wide needs via modularity; that is XMPP to me. Taking social footholds is beyond that scope imo, and should be left to individual administration (or modules ;D)✎
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pintoseskProviding an extensible service that suits wide needs via modularity; that is XMPP to me. Taking social footholds at the core level is beyond that scope imo, and should be left to individual administration (or modules ;D) ✏
throughaway123> throughaway123: well, you can make social problems worse with technical means, that's true.
You impact it, for the better or the worse. (What's better/worse obviosly depends on eachs individual position).
MattJthroughaway123, right, and this is exactly the thing that I *don't* want to debate in this chat :)
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throughaway123UX, it's about UX
MattJMaybe you are right that the study is false, maybe you are wrong - but we're not going to agree here
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MattJ(I mean "we" collectively)
pintosesk> throughaway123 wrote:
> UX, it's about UX
UX?
pintoseskIn what way?
throughaway123user experience
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MattJI personally don't know what the right answer is to dealing with conspiracy theorists, but I do know how to contact XMPP admins and block servers, if that's what you want to do
MattJBut you have to respect that some people may not believe that is the right course of action
pintosesk> shut them down
This isn't a social steering committee, imo.
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throughaway123UX will differ depening if service operator and xmpp developers take countering conspiracy theories, sexism, racism as an important part to improofe UX.
It will impact code, it will impact admin behaviour.
pintoseskhis is an infrastructure chat. These people pose a social threat to you, not infrastructure.✎
pintoseskThis is an infrastructure chat. These people pose a social threat to you, not infrastructure. ✏
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throughaway123(The infastructure as no meaning, without the social interaction)
pintoseskAnd you need more than XMPP to properly implement your censorship. Call your gov. surveillance agency or the FCC, or something.
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pintosesk> throughaway123 wrote:
> (The infastructure as no meaning, without the social interaction)
Then you don't need to go through us, the XMPP operators, because we are not the independent variable here.
pintoseskYour princess is in another castle.
throughaway123(I don't call for cencorship. I call to think about how our admin and development decisions can have an impact on [social things)
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Holgerthroughaway123: And you've been told how this topic is off-topic in here.
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pintoseskAnd how do you plan to act based on that thinking? 'shutting down' people is censorship.
pintoseskno slicing this pie differently.
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Ge0rGIf everybody is good at detecting and ignoring racism and propaganda, then we don't need to implement any technical measures. All we need to do is elect governments that put proper education first, and then wait for 40 years.
Krismake a bot that picks up on certain conspiracy phrases and ridicules them. There, fixed that problem for you /s
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pintoseskIf you aren't going to speculate on how to infrastructurally implement your wish here, not just socially, your result will be partial and your desires unfulfilled. At least brainstorm some sort of module for this, y'know?
For example: a room or message keyword field exposed to the user.
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throughaway123> throughaway123: And you've been told how this topic is off-topic in here.
I've been first told it's offtopic, then explained how it's ontopic, to then again it would be offtopic.
The reasoning is not consitancy, so I have trouble to understand what it ok to say, and what not.
All I notice that I'm not welcomed, but I am unable to use the presented arguments to form a logical reasoning out of it. (Sorry that might be my autism. Humans confuse me....)
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pintoseska bonus of such a module would be quick search of messages within a certain range, and if the keywords display near the body onscreen, one might even remember the simple keyword when looking back for a long ago message.
pintoseskfor rooms, it could display near the topic and orient discussion more strictly.
pintoseskthoughts?
Krispintosesk, such specifc implementation topics can better be discussed in a general muc like chat@joinjabber.org or the specific server's mucs if you want to talk actual module creation
throughaway123(See, now people engage on how a XEP meeting my need could look like. Am I acting against the MUC rules if I engage with it...it's hell of a confusion to me)
pintoseskhmm.
Holgerthroughaway123: Issues/questions regarding the infrastructure itself ("why is s2s with jabber.org broken?", "how do I block jabber.org?") are on-topic. Issues/questions regarding the impact of infrastructure decisions on social things ("will blocking jabber.org result in a desired social outcome"?) are off-topic.
pintoseskSo this is purely a janitorial chat then.
Krisserver admin, yes
MattJYes, discussions of policies are off-topic, and discussions of client UX are off-topic (this channel is not for client developers) and discussions of XEPs are generally off-topic (this room is not about general XMPP protocol development)
Krisdon't call them glorified janitors 😉
pintoseskGotcha. Well, throughaway123 , sorry to mislead you, there actually really is nothing constructive you can say here, but if you care to join me in chat@joinjabber.org, you might be more satisfied.
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pintoseskThanks, by the by, Kris .
pintosesk> glorified janitors
I guess it's more like plumbing or a post office'✎
pintosesk> glorified janitors
I guess it's more like plumbing or a post office. ✏
Martinauthbot: help
MattJauthbot cannot help you, Martin
Martin😔
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throughaway123Ok, I think finally I understand what this MUC is for.
Please update your MUC description acording to your expectations. That confusion easily leads to frustration and a waste of time.
MartinTIL authbot.
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MartinHow does it work? Muting people who spam after joining?
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MattJthroughaway123, I think the topic is clear enough for a topic, but we are working on a more throrough page explaining this channel for the xmpp.org site
jonas’Martin, it requests contact info. if real jid == relevant contact && affiliation == none, set affiliation to member✎
jonas’Martin, it requests contact info of the domain of the real jid. if real jid == relevant contact && affiliation == none, set affiliation to member ✏
MartinAh, sweet.
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jonas’(on join)
pintoseskyou might want to change the topic from
'discussions between XMPP server operators about the XMPP network'
to
'[...] about maintenance and status of the XMPP network'
pintoseskso as to clarify that general discussion of the network itself is off topic.
MartinI want a 'verified server operator' blue tick. 😂
MattJMaybe one day we can finish the hats XEP and you can have one, it would indeed be perfect for this chat :)
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Krisjust make people members and mute guests?
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MattJI (and authbot) do make people members, but not everyone has XEP-0152 enabled or joins from a JID listed there if they do
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jonas’(nor should they have to)
MattJand I think this is a valid place for non operators to e.g. ask for help reaching an admin of a particular service, or other enquiries that we might be able to help with
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MattJOh yes, I meant that
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croaxMattJ: maybe to create a dedicated MUC for this
MattJFor what?
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throughaway123(It's obviously ok to be offtopic from time to time, and the following question is just to verify that I understand the rules of this MUC correctly: you're all offtopic atm?)✎
MattJif you mean for seeking admins of a particular service, that's basically saying that admins should join both rooms
MattJand we (I, at least) have enough MUCs already
throughaway123(It's obviously ok to be offtopic from time to time, and the following question is just to verify that I understand the rules of this MUC correctly: you're all offtopic atm?
((sorry if that'a all obvious to you, can't help with my autism)) ✏
MattJthroughaway123, yes, kinda. We're discussing the rules of the room... not really a better place to do that :)
MattJWe had no problems when it was small and there were ~30 people here who just got along fine
pintoseskgrowing pains?
MattJBut nowadays we have many people, new people, and I think it has grown faster than the "community"
croaxThere could be a MUC providing help for users on general XMPP service questions.
But maintenance of federation and technical advices is not same subject to me.
MattJAs I said, we're working on publishing some guidelines
HolgerThe XMPP hype is getting out of hands.
MattJcroax, this has never before been a "strictly maintenance and status discussions" chat
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croaxMattJ: yes not saying this is or has to be. Just a wish :-)
MattJI only started being strict about staying on topic in recent months because of things getting out of hand
MattJIf everyone really wishes it to become that, it can be
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MattJand then it may make sense to close it entirely and have it be invite/registration only, after verifying you are an operator
MattJI don't know if that's the best route, but... meh
pintoseskThis seems to be a maintenance and status discussions chat with select benefits to me.
Ellenor MalikMmm.
pintoseskI can't say much more than that.
MattJWell it's clear that some people these days *expect* it to be that
Ellenor MalikCan there be an operators-meta@ for this kind of bikeshedding?
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MattJEllenor Malik, not if I'm a moderator there, and I don't know who else would volunteer
MattJAnyone is free to go and make one anywhere, of course
Ellenor Malikah
Ellenor Malik> MattJ wrote:
> and then it may make sense to close it entirely and have it be invite/registration only, after verifying you are an operator
> I don't know if that's the best route, but... meh
Doesn't that possibly shut out new operators?
MattJYes, which is why I don't really like it
MattJI also think it's fine and valuable to have an open place where non-operators can reach operators
MattJBut maybe most other operators don't feel that way
jonas’MattJ, I think making everyone happy is not going to work. So if anything, the room should be a place you (or whoever has that role, the XSF, ...) is happy owning with.
jonas’if most other operators disagree with that, someone can step up and improve on it, one way or another.
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MattJjonas’, well, I get complaints when I enforce strict on-topic discussions, I get complaints when I don't ban people immediately for being off-topic... I'm not sure how happy I'll ever get :)
jonas’though I don’t think that a "closed" group where at the same time all XMPP operator have access is especially useful.
Ellenor MalikI consider myself to be among new service operators. I have less than 5 years' experience in this field.
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pintoseskYou don't have to ban people immediately, but drawing a clear line between on and off topic is best to make non regulars or different crowds at ease here.
pintoseskOtherwise we can't tell if we're dancing on your head or not.
HolgerI could imagine (a) everyone being happy with having non-ops reaching out, (b) most being happy with occasional off-topic smalltalk, and (c) most being (very) unhappy with endless discussions on random political topics. Problem is a policy that takes care of (c) easily conflicts with (a) and (b).
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MattJYes, (b) is the problem, because it used to be fine when it was not controversial discussions, but these days we get more and more controversial discussions coming up... and the only impartial way to deal with it is to ban the lot
Ge0rGIMHO this place should be primarily for reaching out to server operators about technical issues. We have no technology to solve social issues and thus I'm fully okay with flagging them as off topic, and muting repeat offenders
MattJOtherwise we lose the real value of this room
Ellenor MalikThe fact I've not quit completely falls to a mixture of causes: the welcoming and apparently collegial nature of places like here, stubbornness after banishment from support chats, and an ideological interest in ensuring a future for the Jabber federation.
pintoseskI think it's possible to resolve the conflict so long as nobody makes smalltalk with any intent or motive behind it.
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MattJpintosesk, but I don't want to be the judge of whether people have intent or motive... it just puts me in an awkward position
pintoseskSo just, 'if you want something from us, it better be about our servers and not us as people' would do I think
MattJI end up with PMs from people who think I am personally opposed to them, and unfair
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Ge0rGMattJ: that's the expected effect of all moderation
pintoseskyou just gotta make it clear that the smalltalk is pleasant talk and not a therapy session or thinktank, the latter being what I thought it might partially have been.
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MattJI want to preserve what we had, which is what is in the topic... a place for server operators to discuss the network in a civil manner
MattJBut I believe that is becoming increasingly impossible as the channel grows
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pintoseskI feel like you're being a bit condemning about it, although perhaps I'm just new to the phenomenon.
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pintoseskI don't think there's much else left for me to say about it though.
pintoseskHow's the price of gas?
MattJThis channel has been one of the most unpleasant parts of my participation in XMPP in recent months
MattJSo yeah
jonas’"pintosesk, who cares, don’t drive a car or do you hate the planet?!"
jonas’(just to drive the point home, I guess :()
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pintoseskHovercars or bust
pintoseskbut I digress
Ge0rGMattJ: I think you are doing a great job with the moderation here
MattJGe0rG, sure, some people think so. Others don't :)
pintoseskI don't think you're a bad fellow.
jonas’what bothers me most is that this is taking valuable time from MattJ :)
MattJand I know I'll never please everyone. But I don't really want server operators leaving because of whatever policies we decide upon here.
MattJObviously some will, but it's mostly valuable if we can keep it useful for its original purpose
MattJI think the next step is to get that page up on xmpp.org, and then we have some concrete points on record that we can agree to and/or iterate upon
Ge0rGMattJ: if the goal of this place is to have server operators available for civil discourse, you should weigh the feedback from them higher, or you'll end up without them
pintoseskI don't think anything or one of value will leave is you say 'no ad hominems or unsolicited requests for personal reform'.
MattJGe0rG, indeed, I try
pintoseskor something like that.
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Ellenor MalikI'm just a soft animal
pintoseskthat's cool
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ХарперMy hat has arrived
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throughaway123> I want to preserve what we had, which is what is in the topic... a place for server operators to discuss the network in a civil manner
So either I'm again confused what this room is for, or you just wish to preserve an old status quo that was:
I don't care about minorities, I don't care about white supremacy and sexism, please I want my privilidged comfort being protected.
What ever, I understand I'm not welcomed here.
Bye.
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MattJand there we go
Ge0rGMattJ: you can't make it fit for the people who *want* to misunderstand you
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croaxWe can build best message protocols, it seems humans have built-in firewalls and hardcoded stanza length limits. So do I.
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Ellenor Malik:o
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robHopefully I didn't miss anything important 😵💫
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MartinMattJ:
> I (and authbot) do make people members, but not everyone has XEP-0152 enabled or joins from a JID listed there if they do
0157?
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Харперyes
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Licaon_KterSo I should join with the user admin mentioned in 157 to get upgraded to "member"?
Харперyes
Харперyou can add multiple too
MartinLicaon_Kter: You are already member. ;-)
Licaon_KterMartin: because I asked at one point when the room went members only, sameish offtopic iirc
jonas’Licaon_Kter, that’ll stay, authbot is only an aid for the room owners to not have to allowlist everyone manually :)✎
jonas’Licaon_Kter, that’ll stay, authbot is only an aid for the room owners to not have to allowlist *everyone* manually :) ✏
Licaon_KterRight
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Licaon_KterFYI in the Offtopic room we have lots of fun being ontopic, so if you wanna redirect them to xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join feel free.
/end of advertisment
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jonas’Licaon_Kter, not sure where else I have you, do you intend to incorproate the feedback in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1062 ?
Licaon_Kterjonas’: yes, but lack of time, also was afk for the week.
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jonas’Licaon_Kter, ok, just wanted to make sure, take your time :)
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4223MattJ: thank you!
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4223> MattJ: you can't make it fit for the people who *want* to misunderstand you
Troll from first post. There is nothing to understand. Comes up with different nicks in several mucs.
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Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir4223: Called Morph?
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qyShould tell stories about morph to non-xmpp folk. Irritating though he is, he's basically folklore now, and that would drag in users
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qyEveryone loves a herobrine
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qyEspecially a real-life schizophrenic one
4223Ellenor&c Bjornsdottir: don't know, the first friendly but never ending questions, mixed with more and more agressive noise reminds me off different nicks (but I do not remind the exact nicks).
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MattJI am sure conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net welcomes your morph discussions :)
Licaon_Kter:)
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4223MattJ: /me 🤐
Ellenor&c Bjornsdottirqy: ??
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Ellenor&c BjornsdottirHerobrine?
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Martin> I am sure conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net welcomes your morph discussions :)
No more morphing please. 🙂
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NekoRemember this name MORPH! All of you will pray!
Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
NekoRemember this name MORPH! All of you will pray!
Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
NekoRemember this name MORPH! All of you will pray!
Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
NekoRemember this name MORPH! All of you will pray!
Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
NekoRemember this name MORPH! All of you will pray!
Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Morph is god XMPP!
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tomdid anybody happen to catch the ip address of that one?
jonas’I think so.
tomit happened on my server too, but i don't log such information
tomjonas’: did they use the anonymous logon componet?
jonas’yes
Харперs2s discloses IP of users?
tomno
tomanonymous logon only works on local services
jonas’Харпер, no, this was someone abusing anon.xmpp.org
jonas’so the IP address was locally available
tomnice, didn't know xmpp.org had anon services
tomtoo bad someone's abusing that though
tomit happens
tomjonas’: can you please share the ip with me so i can prevent that ip from using my anon as well
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jonas’no
jonas’well, I probably could, I realize, because I’m in iteam, but the number I saw elsewhere indicated a Tor exit node.
jonas’(of course)
jonas’so it’s not gonna help anyway.
tomoh ok
tomwell it does help to temporarily block those as their abused
jonas’I expect them to switch exit nodes for each attempt
tomthat way your not blocking tor, but just degrading service enough until the spammer stops
jonas’if they go as far as using Tor and the anon service fo rthis
tomyeah but you can't choose your exit node. so the more you block temporarily the less likely and harder it gets to spam
Харперblocking a single tor exit is silly
tomwhen the spam waves stops service levels return to normal
jonas’tom, seems like a lot of resources wasted on maintaining a list of IP addresses if you could also just use a Tor-blocking RBL for a while :)
tomsecurity is just a game of making it harder than the bad guy wants to put effort to do
tomjonas’: with something like fail2ban to manage ttls
jonas’uhh, interesting
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jonas’that would require feeding the fact that a message was retracted by an admin (or that a ban was placed on the IP via XMPP) into fail2ban
tomtreat it like a spam score when doing email filtering
Харперif you want to allow tor, just make an onion and require an account
jonas’but then you’re still faced with lots of abuse you could’ve blocked by blocking the entirety Tor for a while. it’s trade-offs all the way down.
tomХарпер: what difference does having an onion make?
jonas’tom, accountability, because the user is authenticated
tomi don't understand
tomit's still encrypted
tomyou just added another layer of encryption on top of the tls
Харперwhat does encryption have to do with anything?
jonas’current situation: user -> Tor --c2s-> anon.xmpp.org --s2s-> muc.xmpp.org; bans only work based on IP addresses.
proposed situation: user --c2s-> whatever.onion XMPP server --s2s-> muc.xmpp.org; bans work based on the XMPP account (which is presumably harder to change than IP addresess, and if the server operator is not acting on the abuse, we can block the entire whatever.onion)
tomwhat difference does saslanon and saslanon+onion make
tomor i mean
Харперwhat jonas’ said
jonas’tom, onion+non-anon sasl was the proposal
tomsaslanon+torexit and saslanon+onion
tomyour hosting both whatever.onion and muc.xmpp.org
jonas’no
tomoutsourcing the problem isn't fixing the problem
tomand there's still an actual need for anonymous logon
jonas’yes, but that could then be limited to non-tor users
jonas’this is similar to what IRC networks have been doing
tomdefeats the whole purposes of anonymity
jonas’no
jonas’it defeats some purposes, but not all of them
tombreaks things for tor users
Харперhow?
jonas’yes, but that’s the fault of the people abusing tor
tomif your block tor entirly
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jonas’re anonymity: muc.xmpp.org can still not know who the user really is. the onion service also does not learn the users real IP address.
tomjust just treat tor exit nodes like any other ip on the internet and do automatic temporary blocks
jonas’it would only be blocked entirely for anon
tomthere's an accessibility factor too
jonas’that’d be feasible if fully automatic blocks were feasible, but they are not
jonas’manual action is required to determine that an XMPP message is spam, nobody has figured an automatism so far.
tomthat means the user has to know about and setup an account on a onion server
jonas’yes
jonas’that’s tough
jonas’but on the other side of the equation there is the factor of limited resources of dealing with abuse.
tomthat's an accessibility issue. the whole point of anonsasl was to make things more accessible to everybody
jonas’as always
jonas’either way
jonas’&
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tom
» <jonas’> manual action is required to determine that an XMPP message is spam, nobody has figured an automatism so far.
when someone bans someone on your server, and other channels start banning them too that could be a good indicator if we had something to track
jonas’that’s... way too slow in my opinion
jonas’and the spam came from at least two different IP addresses in two different channels, so it’s not going to work
tomwhat's a reasonable time for you to metigate spam?
jonas’(with IP based bans from tor abuse)
jonas’but yes, we need such a protocol to exchange information about abusers in real time, however, it’s complex and this is not the venue to develop it
tomdo we though?
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qyno.
tomtorexit abusers don't happen nearly as much or to every single ip on the internet as people seam to think it does
tommy small site is probably fine
tomin fact
jonas’tom, yes, we need such a protocol, but it’s unrelated to Tor abuse, more a general spam-wave thing
tomchinese telecom ip addresses and russian cellphones are much more of a problem for me than tor exits
tomand it's not really that big of a problem with my fail2ban sensors
tomjonas’: look at DCC and pyzor
tom(distributed checksum clearinhouse)
tomit's one of the protocols i use for that exact purpose on email
tomhttps://www.rhyolite.com/dcc/
jonas’doesn’t sound like something which would help with all of that "hello" spam.
tomhttps://www.pyzor.org/en/latest/
Харперon a different note
why is it not possible to apply bogofilter to xmpp?
Харперmoparisthebest, said it was because messages are too short
moparisthebestto be clear that's what I recall reading somewhere, I'm no expert
Харперnot disagreeing with you, it sounds reasonable
Харперbut is it one of those things that really isn't possible, or does it happen that it might actually work really well just no one has tried
tomi don't see why you couldn't anyways
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Харперsurely someone has tried?
tomjust reduce the weight of the bogo or fuzzy hash scoring system in your overwall anomaly scoring system
tomi bet like most spam metigation tech actually in use it would be beneficial as one componet as part of a large collection of things
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mjk> messages are too short
Concat multiple messages? Won't do insta-filtering, and wouldn't help with one-shot messages, but could still help by marking users as spammy
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xormanproof of work for friend requests? is there a XEP for this already?
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xormandoes Pleroma chat use XMPP?
mikeNo it's all done with activitypub over HTTPS.
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xormangreat
xormangives me a new idea for a round shaped object
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tomwhat is that xorman?
xormanit's intended for carrying objects
xormangotta patent it
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xormanI shall call it "wheel"
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tom>not naming a trendy new re-implementation of a tech thing after greek mythology
tom> or purposefully misspelling it and then adding ify to the end