XMPP Service Operators - 2021-06-30

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  51. qy Caveat emptor
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  65. moparisthebest tom: sorry to burst your bubble but most of the xeps you use every day aren't draft, only experimental
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  67. Харпер So is there an ejabber .module to do so?
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  73. moparisthebest tom: mam, carbons, push notifications to name a few aren't yet draft
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  83. rob I like living on the edge
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  95. rozzin moparisthebest: I'll take the XMPP community's "experiments" over most others' "production" any day 😜️
  96. moparisthebest I agree
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  243. oldelf I need someone to talk.
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  262. Licaon_Kter oldelf: you Ok? Wait...don't go.... ಠ_ಠ
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  746. tom » [19:31:51] <moparisthebest> tom: mam, carbons, push notifications to name a few aren't yet draft they aren't mandatory
  747. tom sorry to burst your bubble
  748. moparisthebest only if you want working message delivery :)
  749. moparisthebest multidevice
  750. Holger Or single mobile device.
  751. Holger But who uses mobile these days ...
  752. tom then please work on and help other clients obtain implementations of those xeps
  753. moparisthebest basically all of them already do?
  754. tom oh yeah that's right. Gajim and Conversations == all xmpp clients
  755. jonas’ and Dino
  756. jonas’ and poezoi
  757. jonas’ and poezio
  758. jonas’ not sure about profanity
  759. moparisthebest it'd be easier to name the clients that *do not*, can you name any?
  760. jonas’ pidgin.
  761. tom psi+ only partial support for mam
  762. tom only in conferences it works... kinda
  763. tom no carbons =(
  764. moparisthebest pidgin got a carbons patch 8 years ago, still not merged yet hehe https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15508
  765. Holger The relevant ones are the mobile clients; i.e. Conversations, Monal, Siskin. They support those.
  766. jonas’ moparisthebest, so it hasn’t gotten it.
  767. moparisthebest then I wouldn't call Psi+ a "maintained client"
  768. tom vacuum i think has better mam but probably not carbons
  769. Holger Vacumm even has this old-school archiving thing, no?
  770. tom moparisthebest: well then your wrong
  771. Holger XEP-0136
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  773. jonas’ tom, that line there is a prime example of off-topic
  774. Holger (Only client I'm aware of.)
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  776. moparisthebest I started using xmpp in ~2013 and have never once used a client that didn't support mam and carbons
  777. tom you know what's offtopic? calling maintained clients unmaintained just because the development team didn't have the ability to implement $feature you like yet
  778. moparisthebest $feature required for basic usage as of at least 2013
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  780. jonas’ ok, sooo… clients are only barely on-topic for this room as it stands, and what is needed for a proprely functioning client is definitely "opinion-based", so I’d prefer if we could leave it at this now :)
  781. Holger I totally agree not to make OMEMO mandatory BTW, which started this off and which is kinda on-topic 🙂 Just not with the reasoning.
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  784. jonas’ sure, OMEMO/plaintext transit policies are an on-topic thing to discuss
  785. Ellenor Malik OMEMO should just be default
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  787. tom follow the spec recommendations, they are that way for a reason
  788. Ellenor Malik but that's client discussion again
  789. Holger On clients who's target audience wants/expects such a default, yes.
  790. tom otherwise things start breaking, messages start dropping
  791. tom just follow the standards
  792. Sam They aren't though. The status of specs change in part based on how many implementations there are. By your logic nothing would ever move past experimental.
  793. jonas’ standards aren’t perfect though. RFC 6120 is a prime-example, we have bolted on XEP-0198 nowadays becaue of the shortcomings of the interaction of TCP with the reliability expectations of XMPP
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  795. tom I don't want to be a beta tester for some things
  796. Sam This seems to be a misunderstanding of how the XSF treats "Experimental" and "Draft" (which is fair, because those terms are confusing and don't mean what the XSF thinks they mean either).
  797. Sam These aren't things in beta, these are well established protocols that the XSF recommends you implement.
  798. Holger > don't mean what the XSF thinks they mean either 😀️
  799. jonas’ Sam, some of them are.
  800. tom OMEMO experimental meaning it's subject to change on a whim, and it's probably seriously broken
  801. tom as in
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  803. jonas’ not everything in Experimental is a well-established protocol, I hope we can agree on that much
  804. tom omemo with it's drop message invisibly into the ether if there's a decrypt failure
  805. Sam jonas’: sure, I'm mostly pointing out that tom's logic is flawed by making this comparison with MAM/Carbon/whatever else it was
  806. tom having to manually approve every single key
  807. tom lack of widespread proper full implementation due to complexity
  808. jonas’ Sam, fair
  809. tom and being constantly in flux
  810. Sam I totally agree that OMEMO has UX issues FWIW, but "don't implement it because it's expereimental and that means beta" is just wrong.
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  812. tom maybe for you, but I'm not going to waste my time implementing something that's going to be obselete in a matter of months
  813. Sam And "don't implement Carbons/MAM because they're Experimental" is *very* wrong.
  814. tom and I don't want to use 'Experimental tech' for my everyday coms
  815. jonas’ tom, you do you, that’s fine
  816. Sam Carbons and MAM aren't experimental. They're extremely well vetted and widely implemented technology.
  817. Sam OMEMO is more debatable.
  818. tom if someone wants to help psi+ and vacuum-im implement mam and carbons please do
  819. jonas’ reminds me, in which state is MAM? didn’t we want to Draft this? what was the blocker…
  820. tom but don't spread FUD about clients
  821. tom calling them unmaintained
  822. jonas’ look at that, the last call ended 3 months ago
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  824. tom they are maintained
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  826. tom they have git commit history within days ago
  827. tom technology doesn't progress in a straight line
  828. tom it branches out
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  830. Sam tom: are you a maintainer? You might want to check the website, it links to the wrong git repo. I had assumed they were unmaintained too for that reason.
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  832. jonas’ Ge0rG vetoed it
  833. tom no but i submit patches sometimes
  834. tom the website isn't where development is happening github is
  835. tom and the github tracker
  836. tom i'll link you the repo later, but i have to go to a meeting
  837. Sam Yes, and the website is how I went to find the GitHub and it links to the wrong place which makes it look unmaintained (because the repos it links to are unmaintained)
  838. Sam I found the right one now.
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  1042. rozzin OMG what did I start... 😳
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  1046. Ellenor Malik :)
  1047. rozzin > Yes, and the website is how I went to find the GitHub and it links to the wrong place which makes it look unmaintained (because the repos it links to are unmaintained) I really thought that OpenSSL/Debian RNG bug pretty aptly demonstrated how bad an idea "developers hiding out in a secret clubhouse where nobody else can find them" is...
  1048. rozzin I am going to try to bounce off of this OMEMO discussion to get back on topic, now....
  1049. rozzin There's a nice index of clients and their support for OMEMO at https://omemo.top/
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  1052. Licaon_Kter rozzin: that's still...offtopic?
  1053. Licaon_Kter rozzin: that's still...offtopic!
  1054. Ellenor Malik Jeez :/
  1055. rozzin ... it would be nice if there were similar indices for other XEPs
  1056. Ellenor Malik Yeah, like, are we pubsub for nonadmins yet?
  1057. Licaon_Kter The DOAP thing should help
  1058. rozzin [boing...] so that it were easy for me to figure out what clients to recommend to my users.
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  1060. Licaon_Kter https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0453.html
  1061. Licaon_Kter https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations/blob/master/conversations.doap https://github.com/dino/dino/blob/master/dino.doap https://github.com/monal-im/Monal/blob/develop/monal.doap
  1062. rozzin ... because *I'm* the one they complain to when things `don't work right'...
  1063. Licaon_Kter tom: you can contribute a DOAP to your favourite projects so at least people can know...what's missing :)
  1064. Харпер What is doap?
  1065. Licaon_Kter Read xep Харпер
  1066. rozzin ... and even if it's easy enough to go look up the website for their specific client and say, e.g. "yeah, stop using Pidgin, it breaks all of your expectations"....
  1067. Харпер A machine parsable list of supported features?
  1068. rozzin they then want me to recommend options for _replacements_....
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  1070. rozzin Yeah, DOAP looks... like a pretty dope way of getting the straight dope.
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  1073. rozzin So for the clients that publish a public doap file like that, looks like it should be easy to at least put them into a client/feature matrix.
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  1075. Licaon_Kter Oh no...you said matrix :)
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  1077. rozzin So for the clients that publish a public doap file like that, looks like it should be easy to at least put them into a client/feature grid.
  1078. rozzin 🙄️
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  1080. rozzin Anyone feel like building/hosting that? 😉️
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  1112. tom Licaon_Kter: ty
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  1114. tom is there a central repo for doaps or a parser?
  1115. tom or a centralized lonk to doaps
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  1117. tom what do you do if some xep implementations are done via plugins in a seperate repository?
  1118. Licaon_Kter I think I saw something on XSF but maybe I just imagined it?
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  1139. mathieui There is a wip stuff of the xsf website which presents clients/servers/libs according to xep support, yes
  1140. mathieui Ask Link Mauve
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  1142. mathieui No clue how far it is with iteam though
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  1179. rozzin tom: mark it as "[status]*" with a "*=implemented by plugin" footnote?
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  1191. tom LMAO : https://mastodon.matrix.org/@matrix/106501901675235220 there goes that damn protocol again. No graceful degradation, upgrade or your kicked off. No contacting operators before blocking either
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  1193. tom the big centralized server dictating everything for everybody else
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  1197. mathieui Though they have the concept of deactivating a user, something I would like to have in prosody
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  1199. mathieui Having to backup spam user files before purging them for later analysis is a bit painful
  1200. Holger Scramble the password? (But then reactivation is meh if there's no password reset magic.)
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  1210. Licaon_Kter Imagine if there was "prior-art" of federation and spam...
  1211. rob 😶
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  1257. moparisthebest You gotta admit, it's certainly easier to do it that way
  1258. moparisthebest Hey you 4 other admins, upgrade ok? Thanks.
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  1273. rob Upgrade what now?
  1274. moparisthebest rob: the entire XMPP network (I was making fun of the linked matrix post)
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  1276. rob Oh, ya matrix is not good
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