-
qy
Caveat emptor
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moparisthebest
tom: sorry to burst your bubble but most of the xeps you use every day aren't draft, only experimental
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Харпер
So is there an ejabber .module to do so?
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moparisthebest
tom: mam, carbons, push notifications to name a few aren't yet draft
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rob
I like living on the edge
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rozzin
moparisthebest: I'll take the XMPP community's "experiments" over most others' "production" any day 😜️
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moparisthebest
I agree
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oldelf
I need someone to talk.
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Licaon_Kter
oldelf: you Ok? Wait...don't go.... ಠ_ಠ
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Ellenor Malik
uh oh
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tom
» [19:31:51] <moparisthebest> tom: mam, carbons, push notifications to name a few aren't yet draft they aren't mandatory
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tom
sorry to burst your bubble
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moparisthebest
only if you want working message delivery :)
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moparisthebest
multidevice
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Holger
Or single mobile device.
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Holger
But who uses mobile these days ...
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tom
then please work on and help other clients obtain implementations of those xeps
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moparisthebest
basically all of them already do?
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tom
oh yeah that's right. Gajim and Conversations == all xmpp clients
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jonas’
and Dino
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jonas’
and poezoi✎ -
jonas’
and poezio ✏
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jonas’
not sure about profanity
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moparisthebest
it'd be easier to name the clients that *do not*, can you name any?
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jonas’
pidgin.
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tom
psi+ only partial support for mam
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tom
only in conferences it works... kinda
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tom
no carbons =(
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moparisthebest
pidgin got a carbons patch 8 years ago, still not merged yet hehe https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15508
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Holger
The relevant ones are the mobile clients; i.e. Conversations, Monal, Siskin. They support those.
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jonas’
moparisthebest, so it hasn’t gotten it.
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moparisthebest
then I wouldn't call Psi+ a "maintained client"
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tom
vacuum i think has better mam but probably not carbons
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Holger
Vacumm even has this old-school archiving thing, no?
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tom
moparisthebest: well then your wrong
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Holger
XEP-0136
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jonas’
tom, that line there is a prime example of off-topic
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Holger
(Only client I'm aware of.)
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moparisthebest
I started using xmpp in ~2013 and have never once used a client that didn't support mam and carbons
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tom
you know what's offtopic? calling maintained clients unmaintained just because the development team didn't have the ability to implement $feature you like yet
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moparisthebest
$feature required for basic usage as of at least 2013
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jonas’
ok, sooo… clients are only barely on-topic for this room as it stands, and what is needed for a proprely functioning client is definitely "opinion-based", so I’d prefer if we could leave it at this now :)
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Holger
I totally agree not to make OMEMO mandatory BTW, which started this off and which is kinda on-topic 🙂 Just not with the reasoning.
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jonas’
sure, OMEMO/plaintext transit policies are an on-topic thing to discuss
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Ellenor Malik
OMEMO should just be default
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tom
follow the spec recommendations, they are that way for a reason
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Ellenor Malik
but that's client discussion again
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Holger
On clients who's target audience wants/expects such a default, yes.
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tom
otherwise things start breaking, messages start dropping
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tom
just follow the standards
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Sam
They aren't though. The status of specs change in part based on how many implementations there are. By your logic nothing would ever move past experimental.
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jonas’
standards aren’t perfect though. RFC 6120 is a prime-example, we have bolted on XEP-0198 nowadays becaue of the shortcomings of the interaction of TCP with the reliability expectations of XMPP
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tom
I don't want to be a beta tester for some things
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Sam
This seems to be a misunderstanding of how the XSF treats "Experimental" and "Draft" (which is fair, because those terms are confusing and don't mean what the XSF thinks they mean either).
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Sam
These aren't things in beta, these are well established protocols that the XSF recommends you implement.
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Holger
> don't mean what the XSF thinks they mean either 😀️
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jonas’
Sam, some of them are.
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tom
OMEMO experimental meaning it's subject to change on a whim, and it's probably seriously broken
-
tom
as in
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jonas’
not everything in Experimental is a well-established protocol, I hope we can agree on that much
-
tom
omemo with it's drop message invisibly into the ether if there's a decrypt failure
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Sam
jonas’: sure, I'm mostly pointing out that tom's logic is flawed by making this comparison with MAM/Carbon/whatever else it was
-
tom
having to manually approve every single key
-
tom
lack of widespread proper full implementation due to complexity
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jonas’
Sam, fair
-
tom
and being constantly in flux
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Sam
I totally agree that OMEMO has UX issues FWIW, but "don't implement it because it's expereimental and that means beta" is just wrong.
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tom
maybe for you, but I'm not going to waste my time implementing something that's going to be obselete in a matter of months
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Sam
And "don't implement Carbons/MAM because they're Experimental" is *very* wrong.
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tom
and I don't want to use 'Experimental tech' for my everyday coms
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jonas’
tom, you do you, that’s fine
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Sam
Carbons and MAM aren't experimental. They're extremely well vetted and widely implemented technology.
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Sam
OMEMO is more debatable.
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tom
if someone wants to help psi+ and vacuum-im implement mam and carbons please do
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jonas’
reminds me, in which state is MAM? didn’t we want to Draft this? what was the blocker…
-
tom
but don't spread FUD about clients
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tom
calling them unmaintained
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jonas’
look at that, the last call ended 3 months ago
-
tom
they are maintained
-
tom
they have git commit history within days ago
-
tom
technology doesn't progress in a straight line
-
tom
it branches out
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Sam
tom: are you a maintainer? You might want to check the website, it links to the wrong git repo. I had assumed they were unmaintained too for that reason.
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jonas’
Ge0rG vetoed it
-
tom
no but i submit patches sometimes
-
tom
the website isn't where development is happening github is
-
tom
and the github tracker
-
tom
i'll link you the repo later, but i have to go to a meeting
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Sam
Yes, and the website is how I went to find the GitHub and it links to the wrong place which makes it look unmaintained (because the repos it links to are unmaintained)
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Sam
I found the right one now.
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rozzin
OMG what did I start... 😳
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Ellenor Malik
:)
-
rozzin
> Yes, and the website is how I went to find the GitHub and it links to the wrong place which makes it look unmaintained (because the repos it links to are unmaintained) I really thought that OpenSSL/Debian RNG bug pretty aptly demonstrated how bad an idea "developers hiding out in a secret clubhouse where nobody else can find them" is...
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rozzin
I am going to try to bounce off of this OMEMO discussion to get back on topic, now....
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rozzin
There's a nice index of clients and their support for OMEMO at https://omemo.top/
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Licaon_Kter
rozzin: that's still...offtopic?✎ -
Licaon_Kter
rozzin: that's still...offtopic! ✏
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Ellenor Malik
Jeez :/
-
rozzin
... it would be nice if there were similar indices for other XEPs
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Ellenor Malik
Yeah, like, are we pubsub for nonadmins yet?
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Licaon_Kter
The DOAP thing should help
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rozzin
[boing...] so that it were easy for me to figure out what clients to recommend to my users.
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Licaon_Kter
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0453.html
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Licaon_Kter
https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations/blob/master/conversations.doap https://github.com/dino/dino/blob/master/dino.doap https://github.com/monal-im/Monal/blob/develop/monal.doap
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rozzin
... because *I'm* the one they complain to when things `don't work right'...
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Licaon_Kter
tom: you can contribute a DOAP to your favourite projects so at least people can know...what's missing :)
-
Харпер
What is doap?
-
Licaon_Kter
Read xep Харпер
-
rozzin
... and even if it's easy enough to go look up the website for their specific client and say, e.g. "yeah, stop using Pidgin, it breaks all of your expectations"....
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Харпер
A machine parsable list of supported features?
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rozzin
they then want me to recommend options for _replacements_....
-
rozzin
Yeah, DOAP looks... like a pretty dope way of getting the straight dope.
-
rozzin
So for the clients that publish a public doap file like that, looks like it should be easy to at least put them into a client/feature matrix.✎ -
Licaon_Kter
Oh no...you said matrix :)
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rozzin
So for the clients that publish a public doap file like that, looks like it should be easy to at least put them into a client/feature grid. ✏
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rozzin
🙄️
-
rozzin
Anyone feel like building/hosting that? 😉️
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tom
Licaon_Kter: ty
-
tom
is there a central repo for doaps or a parser?
-
tom
or a centralized lonk to doaps
-
tom
what do you do if some xep implementations are done via plugins in a seperate repository?
-
Licaon_Kter
I think I saw something on XSF but maybe I just imagined it?
-
mathieui
There is a wip stuff of the xsf website which presents clients/servers/libs according to xep support, yes
-
mathieui
Ask Link Mauve
-
mathieui
No clue how far it is with iteam though
-
rozzin
tom: mark it as "[status]*" with a "*=implemented by plugin" footnote?
-
tom
LMAO : https://mastodon.matrix.org/@matrix/106501901675235220 there goes that damn protocol again. No graceful degradation, upgrade or your kicked off. No contacting operators before blocking either
-
tom
the big centralized server dictating everything for everybody else
-
mathieui
Though they have the concept of deactivating a user, something I would like to have in prosody
-
mathieui
Having to backup spam user files before purging them for later analysis is a bit painful
-
Holger
Scramble the password? (But then reactivation is meh if there's no password reset magic.)
-
Licaon_Kter
Imagine if there was "prior-art" of federation and spam...
-
rob
😶
-
moparisthebest
You gotta admit, it's certainly easier to do it that way
-
moparisthebest
Hey you 4 other admins, upgrade ok? Thanks.
-
rob
Upgrade what now?
-
moparisthebest
rob: the entire XMPP network (I was making fun of the linked matrix post)
-
rob
Oh, ya matrix is not good