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  644. Link Mauve tom, Licaon_Kter, I wrote two things: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/xep-0280.html and https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html
  645. Link Mauve The first one is for when you are interested in a particular XEP, to see which clients/servers you can expect to interoperate with, and which libraries you can use to not have to implement it yourself, and as an author or security researcher who to ping for issues.
  646. Link Mauve The second one is more directed towards users, it exposes the implementation level for the current Compliance Suite so that users can make an informed choice.
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  648. Link Mauve It’s currently blocked for inclusion on xmpp.org by me (or someone else, please help pretty please!) having to integrate with their docker thingy.
  649. Licaon_Kter Wow, really nice 👍
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  657. MattJ Link Mauve, if you need help with something there, can you make an issue on the xsf/infrastructure repo? I kinda use it as my iteam todo list (and I have a block of time set aside for XSF infra work every month)
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  660. Link Mauve Sure, I will!
  661. Link Mauve The imbricated nginx thingy was a bit too complex for me to understand the last time I looked, plus it filled me with disgust which didn’t help with my work. ^^'
  662. Licaon_Kter :)
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  674. millesimus > Wow, really nice 👍 +1
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  703. rozzin Link Mauve: https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html is very hard to read and compare clients.
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  706. Link Mauve rozzin, what would you suggest as an improvement?
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  709. rozzin Link Mauve: a client/feature matrix (or a client/featureset matrix, since you're listing featuresets instead of features there).
  710. Link Mauve rozzin, ah, a change that was planned but never done (so far) was to use images for the Compliance: line.
  711. Link Mauve https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/standard17/uploads/opensourcedesign/original/1X/8fe36f85fa8baad7728d48f692d6703574aaa85c.png
  712. Link Mauve Like those maybe.
  713. Link Mauve rozzin, that’s not the role of this page, and would make it look very complex while it isn’t.
  714. Link Mauve But a feature matrix would be useful for a different kind of user/developer.
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  718. rozzin Link Mauve: orthogonal question: "core core"?
  719. Link Mauve This new client page puts the focus on the screenshot, because that’s what I expect users ending there to pick their client based on.
  720. Link Mauve rozzin, I couldn’t figure a better name for that. ^^'
  721. rozzin Link Mauve: what do any of those terms even mean? It looks like the terms are all hyperlinked, but the links all go to the client websites instead of a glossary.
  722. Link Mauve rozzin, see https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html
  723. rozzin Link Mauve: if you expect whatever class of people reading your client featureset listing to read that XEP, you should link to it 😃
  724. Link Mauve Really?
  725. Link Mauve My target here is end users who end up on xmpp.org because of our (bad) marketing, not people who’d read specifications.
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  727. rozzin Link Mauve: I did say "if"....
  728. MattJ I think the "Core" compliance level should be named "Basic" or just not included. "Core Core" -> "Core (Basic)" or just "Core"
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  730. Link Mauve The idea of putting the compliance here is that it is a somewhat objective (haha, as if) way of ordering clients from “best” to “worst”.
  731. Link Mauve MattJ, ideally that’d be up to the designer of the logos.
  732. MattJ Ok, so waiting for logos :)
  733. Link Mauve But s/Core/Basic/ might be an idea, in the XEP too.
  734. rozzin Link Mauve: my point is that *nobody* is going to want to *go search for a XEP* to figure out what those labels mean.
  735. Link Mauve Right.
  736. rozzin Images.., eh I can't search for an image?
  737. MattJ rozzin, you mean using Ctrl+F? Nobody does that anyway...
  738. MattJ But I'm sure PRs are welcome. You seem to have lots of ideas for improvement :)
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  740. Link Mauve My code is self-hosted, not at GitHub!
  741. Link Mauve So no PR supported since gitea was too heavy for my server.
  742. Link Mauve git clone https://git.linkmauve.fr/xmpp-doap.git/
  743. MattJ Link Mauve, it generates some intermediate machine-readable files, iirc?
  744. rozzin MattJ: obviously some do.... and even if "nobody does"..., that's a big difference from "nobody should be able to".... I think maybe if there's just alt text for the images it fixes that problem, though.
  745. Link Mauve Yes, but only for the XEP pages, not for the client list.
  746. Link Mauve The client list is pure HTML.
  747. MattJ Ok
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  749. Link Mauve I did it that way for the XEP page because the tooling was kind of incompatible with XSLT.
  750. Link Mauve And I couldn’t figure how to generate a HTML page from two XML files using XSLT.
  751. Link Mauve But if someone manages to do so, it would be a better solution than my current JS imo.
  752. Link Mauve For instance, because it wouldn’t rely on JS being supported in the browser.
  753. Link Mauve rozzin, once we have logos for the compliance suite, I’ll make sure to keep the current text as @alt, this is a basic accessibility concern.
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  755. rozzin Link Mauve: > that’s not the role of this page, and would make it look very complex while it isn’t. > But a feature matrix would be useful for a different kind of user/developer. All you really need to do is put the words/logos into a "stack" with fixed locations....
  756. Link Mauve rozzin, if you feel like doing the CSS work, I can generate the HTML.
  757. rozzin Link Mauve: I'll give it a shot.
  758. Link Mauve Thanks. :)
  759. Link Mauve You could base it on https://people.freedesktop.org/~imirkin/glxinfo/#v=Mesa%2013.0.0&p=compat or https://mesamatrix.net/
  760. rozzin Link Mauve: huh—I was actually thinking of something like https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html just with different layout of the "Compliance" section within each client box.
  761. Link Mauve Would you be able to make a mockup, so that I could understand what you mean?
  762. rozzin Link Mauve: that's what I meant by "I'll give it a shot" 😃
  763. Link Mauve Thanks. :)
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  765. rozzin The first change is to pin the "compliance" subsection to the bottom of the client cell 😃
  766. rozzin so the eyes don't have to go up-and-down to find things while scanning across a row.
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  768. Link Mauve That’d be nice indeed, but… how does one do that in CSS? :x
  769. Licaon_Kter And if there's no client logo do put a placeholder of the same size so our eyes don't flicker :)
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  771. Link Mauve I expect client devs to priorise DOAP higher once this change goes live on xmpp.org.
  772. Link Mauve So missing logos won’t stay missing for too long.
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  776. Licaon_Kter I hope...
  777. Ge0rG DOAP all the things!
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  811. Sam uggh, as always I'd like to publicly register my objection to using more over engineered XML on the web. This will just lead to clients where the devs have the capacity to maintain lists or who can generate them being recommended and everyone else left in the lurch.
  812. hhu has joined
  813. MattJ Your objection has been successfully registered.
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  817. Link Mauve If you as a client dev can not host and maintain a XML file, you will just give a worse presentation of your client than your competitors on xmpp.org.
  818. Link Mauve Not worse than the current one though, just worse than other clients.
  819. MattJ That's what Sam is concerned about :)
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  910. tom resistance is futile
  911. tom obey
  912. tom %s!compliance!obey!g
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  915. moparisthebest something something "rough consensus and running code" , ie if you don't like it put up or shut up :P
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  917. tom oh nice
  918. tom there's already a presenter of doap urls https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/README.rst
  919. tom doap wars 2.0 when?
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  922. rozzin 🤣
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  924. tom rozzin: https://github.com/psi-plus/psi-plus-snapshots
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  926. tom https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im
  927. tom Vacuum is actually really good
  928. tom doesn't have asyncio issues like psi
  929. tom make sure you run master though
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  945. tom it's pretty clean
  946. tom sorta similar to adium
  947. jonas’ vacuum-cleaned?
  948. tom really nice ui though that doesn't fall for the trendy smartphone ui on a desktop meme
  949. tom has some nice paradigms like a recents section
  950. tom fully async disco
  951. tom no tons and tons of compiler warnings
  952. tom the client has an interesting property though in that it is fully modular. Absolutely everything is a plugin
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  977. Licaon_Kter > List of plugins that SHOULD NOT be disabled ...24
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  980. Link Mauve tom, fyi, An error occurred during a connection to www.vacuum-im.org. PR_END_OF_FILE_ERROR
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  982. Link Mauve If you’re in contact with them, could you forward them this issue please?
  983. Ellenor Malik I am a jelly donut
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  985. burn hi jelly donut
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  988. tom ok
  989. tom but the website is pretty worthless just use the shithub
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  995. Link Mauve Ok.
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  1003. tom https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im
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  1014. tom What do I do when this happens? https://f.perl.bot/p/nfma6y
  1015. tom and when i query the registrar's whois server, I get this error: The queried object does not exist: not found...
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  1017. tom Registrar Abuse Contact Email: Registrar Abuse Contact Phone:
  1018. tom Do I file a inaccuracy complaint with ICANN?
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  1022. Ge0rG that domain doesn't seem to serve xmpp
  1023. tom what domain? I didn't post one
  1024. Ge0rG oh, inwx is the registrar and not the target. Sorry for my confusion
  1025. rob Seems typical though, for example https://www.whois.com/whois/colloquy.ca
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  1027. tom the registrar doesn't seem to have any records of that domain
  1028. tom The queried object does not exist: not found...
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  1041. tom How are we supposed to report issues if there's no abuse contact, administrator contact, technition contact, or registrar contact?
  1042. moparisthebest seems like their system is working then
  1043. Licaon_Kter tom: welcome, maybe Martin has some thoughts :))
  1044. Харпер tom you want to submit an icann violation for that?
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  1046. Харпер all WHOIS records are like that now
  1047. Харпер due to gdpr
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  1049. Martin Me?
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  1054. Menel For .de domains you have to give a valid contact
  1055. Харпер To the registrar
  1056. Menel Its not a gdpr thing.
  1057. Харпер Whois is a husk at this point
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  1068. tom Харпер: Not sure what else to do
  1069. tom I need to contact them regarding an abuse and interoperability issue
  1070. tom so yeah
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  1079. karim tom, you can try to get an abuse contact for the ip address they are hosting by whois'ing that ip adress
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  1083. karim this will work for proper abuse *if* they are hosted at a reputable network - if it's cloudflare, then that will be more difficult
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  1108. Харпер Does cf send abuse reports to /dev/null
  1109. Харпер I know of sites doing spearfishing malware that I've reported to zero response
  1110. Licaon_Kter According to Fedi, CF forces you to identify then passes your PII to the abuser :))
  1111. Харпер Good thing I didn't give cf my info
  1112. Харпер Kinda expected them to pull something like that
  1113. Licaon_Kter Well that's how I remember it, some lady vs some trolls or terfs or nazies or etc
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  1116. rob tom: typically just abuse@registrar.tld
  1117. rob In the example lookup I posted, though not listed, it's abuse@whc.com
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  1149. tom rob: do you know why that's not listed?
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  1151. rob I don't, but I checked another domain I have with the same registrar and it is. So maybe a configuration issue on their side
  1152. rob https://www.whois.com/whois/loranger.xyz
  1153. rob Sorry it's whc.ca but still
  1154. tom thanks karim
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