XMPP Service Operators - 2021-07-01

  1. Link Mauve

    tom, Licaon_Kter, I wrote two things: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/xep-0280.html and https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html

  2. Link Mauve

    The first one is for when you are interested in a particular XEP, to see which clients/servers you can expect to interoperate with, and which libraries you can use to not have to implement it yourself, and as an author or security researcher who to ping for issues.

  3. Link Mauve

    The second one is more directed towards users, it exposes the implementation level for the current Compliance Suite so that users can make an informed choice.

  4. Link Mauve

    It’s currently blocked for inclusion on xmpp.org by me (or someone else, please help pretty please!) having to integrate with their docker thingy.

  5. Licaon_Kter

    Wow, really nice 👍

  6. MattJ

    Link Mauve, if you need help with something there, can you make an issue on the xsf/infrastructure repo? I kinda use it as my iteam todo list (and I have a block of time set aside for XSF infra work every month)

  7. Link Mauve

    Sure, I will!

  8. Link Mauve

    The imbricated nginx thingy was a bit too complex for me to understand the last time I looked, plus it filled me with disgust which didn’t help with my work. ^^'

  9. Licaon_Kter


  10. millesimus

    > Wow, really nice 👍 +1

  11. rozzin

    Link Mauve: https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html is very hard to read and compare clients.

  12. Link Mauve

    rozzin, what would you suggest as an improvement?

  13. rozzin

    Link Mauve: a client/feature matrix (or a client/featureset matrix, since you're listing featuresets instead of features there).

  14. Link Mauve

    rozzin, ah, a change that was planned but never done (so far) was to use images for the Compliance: line.

  15. Link Mauve


  16. Link Mauve

    Like those maybe.

  17. Link Mauve

    rozzin, that’s not the role of this page, and would make it look very complex while it isn’t.

  18. Link Mauve

    But a feature matrix would be useful for a different kind of user/developer.

  19. rozzin

    Link Mauve: orthogonal question: "core core"?

  20. Link Mauve

    This new client page puts the focus on the screenshot, because that’s what I expect users ending there to pick their client based on.

  21. Link Mauve

    rozzin, I couldn’t figure a better name for that. ^^'

  22. rozzin

    Link Mauve: what do any of those terms even mean? It looks like the terms are all hyperlinked, but the links all go to the client websites instead of a glossary.

  23. Link Mauve

    rozzin, see https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html

  24. rozzin

    Link Mauve: if you expect whatever class of people reading your client featureset listing to read that XEP, you should link to it 😃

  25. Link Mauve


  26. Link Mauve

    My target here is end users who end up on xmpp.org because of our (bad) marketing, not people who’d read specifications.

  27. rozzin

    Link Mauve: I did say "if"....

  28. MattJ

    I think the "Core" compliance level should be named "Basic" or just not included. "Core Core" -> "Core (Basic)" or just "Core"

  29. Link Mauve

    The idea of putting the compliance here is that it is a somewhat objective (haha, as if) way of ordering clients from “best” to “worst”.

  30. Link Mauve

    MattJ, ideally that’d be up to the designer of the logos.

  31. MattJ

    Ok, so waiting for logos :)

  32. Link Mauve

    But s/Core/Basic/ might be an idea, in the XEP too.

  33. rozzin

    Link Mauve: my point is that *nobody* is going to want to *go search for a XEP* to figure out what those labels mean.

  34. Link Mauve


  35. rozzin

    Images.., eh I can't search for an image?

  36. MattJ

    rozzin, you mean using Ctrl+F? Nobody does that anyway...

  37. MattJ

    But I'm sure PRs are welcome. You seem to have lots of ideas for improvement :)

  38. Link Mauve

    My code is self-hosted, not at GitHub!

  39. Link Mauve

    So no PR supported since gitea was too heavy for my server.

  40. Link Mauve

    git clone https://git.linkmauve.fr/xmpp-doap.git/

  41. MattJ

    Link Mauve, it generates some intermediate machine-readable files, iirc?

  42. rozzin

    MattJ: obviously some do.... and even if "nobody does"..., that's a big difference from "nobody should be able to".... I think maybe if there's just alt text for the images it fixes that problem, though.

  43. Link Mauve

    Yes, but only for the XEP pages, not for the client list.

  44. Link Mauve

    The client list is pure HTML.

  45. MattJ


  46. Link Mauve

    I did it that way for the XEP page because the tooling was kind of incompatible with XSLT.

  47. Link Mauve

    And I couldn’t figure how to generate a HTML page from two XML files using XSLT.

  48. Link Mauve

    But if someone manages to do so, it would be a better solution than my current JS imo.

  49. Link Mauve

    For instance, because it wouldn’t rely on JS being supported in the browser.

  50. Link Mauve

    rozzin, once we have logos for the compliance suite, I’ll make sure to keep the current text as @alt, this is a basic accessibility concern.

  51. rozzin

    Link Mauve: > that’s not the role of this page, and would make it look very complex while it isn’t. > But a feature matrix would be useful for a different kind of user/developer. All you really need to do is put the words/logos into a "stack" with fixed locations....

  52. Link Mauve

    rozzin, if you feel like doing the CSS work, I can generate the HTML.

  53. rozzin

    Link Mauve: I'll give it a shot.

  54. Link Mauve

    Thanks. :)

  55. Link Mauve

    You could base it on https://people.freedesktop.org/~imirkin/glxinfo/#v=Mesa%2013.0.0&p=compat or https://mesamatrix.net/

  56. rozzin

    Link Mauve: huh—I was actually thinking of something like https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html just with different layout of the "Compliance" section within each client box.

  57. Link Mauve

    Would you be able to make a mockup, so that I could understand what you mean?

  58. rozzin

    Link Mauve: that's what I meant by "I'll give it a shot" 😃

  59. Link Mauve

    Thanks. :)

  60. rozzin

    The first change is to pin the "compliance" subsection to the bottom of the client cell 😃

  61. rozzin

    so the eyes don't have to go up-and-down to find things while scanning across a row.

  62. Link Mauve

    That’d be nice indeed, but… how does one do that in CSS? :x

  63. Licaon_Kter

    And if there's no client logo do put a placeholder of the same size so our eyes don't flicker :)

  64. Link Mauve

    I expect client devs to priorise DOAP higher once this change goes live on xmpp.org.

  65. Link Mauve

    So missing logos won’t stay missing for too long.

  66. Licaon_Kter

    I hope...

  67. Ge0rG

    DOAP all the things!

  68. Sam

    uggh, as always I'd like to publicly register my objection to using more over engineered XML on the web. This will just lead to clients where the devs have the capacity to maintain lists or who can generate them being recommended and everyone else left in the lurch.

  69. MattJ

    Your objection has been successfully registered.

  70. Link Mauve

    If you as a client dev can not host and maintain a XML file, you will just give a worse presentation of your client than your competitors on xmpp.org.

  71. Link Mauve

    Not worse than the current one though, just worse than other clients.

  72. MattJ

    That's what Sam is concerned about :)

  73. tom

    resistance is futile

  74. tom


  75. tom


  76. moparisthebest

    something something "rough consensus and running code" , ie if you don't like it put up or shut up :P

  77. tom

    oh nice

  78. tom

    there's already a presenter of doap urls https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/README.rst

  79. tom

    doap wars 2.0 when?

  80. rozzin


  81. tom

    rozzin: https://github.com/psi-plus/psi-plus-snapshots

  82. tom


  83. tom

    Vacuum is actually really good

  84. tom

    doesn't have asyncio issues like psi

  85. tom

    make sure you run master though

  86. tom

    it's pretty clean

  87. tom

    sorta similar to adium

  88. jonas’


  89. tom

    really nice ui though that doesn't fall for the trendy smartphone ui on a desktop meme

  90. tom

    has some nice paradigms like a recents section

  91. tom

    fully async disco

  92. tom

    no tons and tons of compiler warnings

  93. tom

    the client has an interesting property though in that it is fully modular. Absolutely everything is a plugin

  94. Licaon_Kter

    > List of plugins that SHOULD NOT be disabled ...24

  95. Link Mauve

    tom, fyi, An error occurred during a connection to www.vacuum-im.org. PR_END_OF_FILE_ERROR

  96. Link Mauve

    If you’re in contact with them, could you forward them this issue please?

  97. Ellenor Malik

    I am a jelly donut

  98. burn

    hi jelly donut

  99. tom


  100. tom

    but the website is pretty worthless just use the shithub

  101. Link Mauve


  102. tom


  103. tom

    What do I do when this happens? https://f.perl.bot/p/nfma6y

  104. tom

    and when i query the registrar's whois server, I get this error: The queried object does not exist: not found...

  105. tom

    Registrar Abuse Contact Email: Registrar Abuse Contact Phone:

  106. tom

    Do I file a inaccuracy complaint with ICANN?

  107. Ge0rG

    that domain doesn't seem to serve xmpp

  108. tom

    what domain? I didn't post one

  109. Ge0rG

    oh, inwx is the registrar and not the target. Sorry for my confusion

  110. rob

    Seems typical though, for example https://www.whois.com/whois/colloquy.ca

  111. tom

    the registrar doesn't seem to have any records of that domain

  112. tom

    The queried object does not exist: not found...

  113. tom

    How are we supposed to report issues if there's no abuse contact, administrator contact, technition contact, or registrar contact?

  114. moparisthebest

    seems like their system is working then

  115. Licaon_Kter

    tom: welcome, maybe Martin has some thoughts :))

  116. Харпер

    tom you want to submit an icann violation for that?

  117. Харпер

    all WHOIS records are like that now

  118. Харпер

    due to gdpr

  119. Martin


  120. Menel

    For .de domains you have to give a valid contact

  121. Харпер

    To the registrar

  122. Menel

    Its not a gdpr thing.

  123. Харпер

    Whois is a husk at this point

  124. tom

    Харпер: Not sure what else to do

  125. tom

    I need to contact them regarding an abuse and interoperability issue

  126. tom

    so yeah

  127. karim

    tom, you can try to get an abuse contact for the ip address they are hosting by whois'ing that ip adress

  128. karim

    this will work for proper abuse *if* they are hosted at a reputable network - if it's cloudflare, then that will be more difficult

  129. Харпер

    Does cf send abuse reports to /dev/null

  130. Харпер

    I know of sites doing spearfishing malware that I've reported to zero response

  131. Licaon_Kter

    According to Fedi, CF forces you to identify then passes your PII to the abuser :))

  132. Харпер

    Good thing I didn't give cf my info

  133. Харпер

    Kinda expected them to pull something like that

  134. Licaon_Kter

    Well that's how I remember it, some lady vs some trolls or terfs or nazies or etc

  135. rob

    tom: typically just abuse@registrar.tld

  136. rob

    In the example lookup I posted, though not listed, it's abuse@whc.com

  137. tom

    rob: do you know why that's not listed?

  138. rob

    I don't, but I checked another domain I have with the same registrar and it is. So maybe a configuration issue on their side

  139. rob


  140. rob

    Sorry it's whc.ca but still

  141. tom

    thanks karim