XMPP Service Operators - 2021-07-16

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  130. ilmaisin Hello
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  135. ilmaisin i cannot for some reason open s2s connections from domain laiho.me to xmpp.org though i have properly set up certificates now
  136. ilmaisin from xmpp2.laiho.me i can federate just fine, even when it is hosted in the same instance
  137. ilmaisin I run ejabberd
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  139. ilmaisin At ejabberd discussion forum they suggested that there could be a some sort of stuck connection
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  143. Ellenor Malik ah
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  145. zp1.net What error message do you get?
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  149. zp1.net I run a prosody but i had something similar when my SRV entries in the DNS where buggy
  150. ilmaisin My srv entries are just fine
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  152. ilmaisin > What error message do you get? I get connection timeouts
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  161. ilmaisin Now i cannot join the conversation's muc either
  162. ilmaisin I am so going to nuke my xmpp server, i am fed up with this stuff
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  171. mieum anyone have experience running an xmpp server behind a reverse proxy?
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  173. mieum i've got prosody in an lxc container, with nginx directing streams on all xmpp ports to the container, and it works...but prosody is aware of the fact that the container and host IPs mismatch.
  174. mieum I've treid using the proxy_bind directive, but it breaks the stream >_<
  175. mieum maybe it doesn't matter so long as everything works?
  176. mieum seems like it *could* cause problems...
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  187. MattJ ilmaisin: I'm an admin of xmpp.org, I can take a look at the logs later today and see if I can spot any issues connecting to your domain
  188. ilmaisin > ilmaisin: I'm an admin of xmpp.org, I can take a look at the logs later today and see if I can spot any issues connecting to your domain It would be great, thanks
  189. MattJ mieum: when you say "it is aware" - what do you mean? Is there a problem?
  190. mieum it works fine, but it thinks that dns isn't configured properly, beause the A record points to the IP of the host machine and not the container itself
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  194. mieum I haven't figured out how to bind the stream to the host IP like you could with http headers. But, I'm not sure it matters...
  195. mieum so far it all works great haha
  196. mieum I am just unsure if there will be unforeseen issues because of it later
  197. MattJ If you're just worried about the output of prosodyctl check, don't be. There is expected to be an IP mismatch in this kind of setup
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  199. mieum okay thanks MattJ :b I will rest assured haha
  200. MattJ But yes, Prosody won't know the real IP address of connections, and that brings some limitations
  201. mieum what sorts of limitations?
  202. MattJ E.g. don't try rate-limiting things that are based on IP address
  203. mieum ah i see
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  330. Julian mieum: HAProxy developed a "Proxy Protocol" to deal with this problem. Nginx and Ejabberd have very good support for it. Maybe Prosody does support it as well.
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  350. mieum Julian, I am using the proxy_protocol directive in nginx to listen on the xmpp ports.
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  353. MattJ Prosody does support it, I wasn't aware nginx does... that's good to know :)
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  355. mieum I've been using it with other non-http tcp streams, and it works really well! I was just alarmed by prosody's warning, which seems harmless like you said MattJ
  356. mieum maybe if I tinker more I can figure out how to properly bind the IPs in this case
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  372. Julian Ok, maybe I misunderstood your problem. Anyway the limitations MattJ mentioned e.g. rate-limits per IP should be solved by using it.
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  377. mieum Julian, are you using the proxy protocol that way with your server?
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  380. mieum I'd be curious what solutions folks have come up with. I'm sure lots of people have been down this road before me :b
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  398. Julian Yes, I do. I have nginx and ejabberd running on different hosts, connected via VPN. All incomming connections are accepted by nginx and passed to ejabberd using the proxy protocol.
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  417. ilmaisin MattJ: also if you could try restarting the server to get rid of stuck connections? I have heard that prsosody sometimes has that kind of issues
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  421. MattJ That was an issue that happened multiple years ago and was fixed
  422. MattJ Obviously I can't rule out a bug without checking, but I consider it unlikely and I don't plan to restart the server without reason
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  424. MattJ I'll be at my laptop in an hour or so, then I can look into it
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  430. mieum Julian, that's an interesting setup! are you using thr proxy_bind directive anywhere? is it irrelevant in this case?
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  444. Holger MattJ: > That was an issue that happened multiple years ago and was fixed Oh I wasn't aware it's fixed. I felt it's not long ago this happened with muc.xmpp.org, and <https://issues.prosody.im/871> doesn't mention a fix?
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  458. Julian mieum: I dont use proxy_bind anywhere. For my understanding the only usecase for this directive is as fallback if the backend doesnt support the proxy protocol. But I may be wrong about this.
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  462. mieum Julian, that makes sense. For now I guess I will continue forwarding the streams with the proxy_protocol directive. So far I haven't encountered any actual problems
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  465. mieum I just want anticipate future issues before too many people depend on the server
  466. mieum It's cool that it just works :) more people sgould host their own servers hehe
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  491. MattJ Holger, I don't recall any recent reports of issues with muc.xmpp.org since we upgraded it. It was stuck on an old release for a long time due to an outdated OS, but it's all up to date now.
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  494. MattJ And iirc the actual issue with xmpp.org back then was due to DNS resolution problems
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  496. MattJ But my memory is hazy
  497. Holger I see.
  498. Holger I'll take note of the Prosody version whenever it looks like this issue again.
  499. MattJ That bug report was made against the 0.9 branch, we're now on 0.11, and many things have changed. We need to do some issue tracker cleanup :)
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  502. Holger I've seen it every now and then until recently, but not sure with what servers/versions.
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  504. MattJ There are a handful of things that could be responsible for the same symptoms, for example previous versions of Debian shipped with a libevent binding that had buggy timer handling (so timers to clean up dead streams may not trigger), for example
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  506. MattJ If you actually do see it in the wild on an up to date server I'm interested to know about that
  507. MattJ Anyway, checking muc.xmpp.org logs, everything seems to be okay with the domain mentioned above...?
  508. MattJ It's actually doing XEP-0199 pings, and they are being answered
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  514. MattJ ilmaisin, it looks like you moved servers and updated DNS, but there was still a connection open to the previous server and it was still answering for the old domain
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  516. MattJ I just force-closed the connection and hopefully the next attempt will see the new DNS records and connect to your new server
  517. Licaon_Kter _It's always DNS_ :)
  518. MattJ Minor note, your DNS is technically against the rules in the SRV RFC, which states that the target of a SRV record should not be a CNAME
  519. MattJ Prosody, and probably most/all XMPP servers handle that anyway (it's a common mistake), but you may want to fix it anyway just in case something enforces the rules strictly
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  527. ilmaisin Yeah, i'll take a look at it. Cloudflare's "cname flattening" will probably do the trick
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  535. iiro MattJ: now it works, thanks alot!
  536. MattJ Excellent :)
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  539. iiro Btw, why does xmpp stuff require certificates to be valid for the main domain too in this kind of configuration? I am not at all sure if it is net positive for security, since one compromising the xmpp server can compromise everything on the main domain too
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  542. Holger iiro, actually only the actual service domains are required to be certified, not the host running the service.
  543. Holger iiro, otherwise you'd have to trust the DNS lookup.
  544. iiro Popularizing posh support for s2s would be nice
  545. Holger iiro, i.e. my client would look up your domain, the attacker would 'just' have to manage to return attacker.example.com for that lookup, and could then offer a valid cert for attacker.example.com.
  546. Holger iiro, the problem you mention could be solved by having service-specific certificates. Google and the rest of the browser lobby forbids large CAs to do that.
  547. Holger And as everything is HTTPS these days anyway, there's no lobby against that nonsense.
  548. iiro Yeah, but someone capable of editing dns can also get certificates
  549. Holger iiro, what.
  550. iiro Lets encrypt does dns validation
  551. Holger iiro, certificate validation is all about avoiding an attacker becoming MITM.
  552. Holger iiro, an attacker with write access on the network path between you and your peer, that is.
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  554. Holger iiro, yes but attacking the way Let's Encrypt performs DNS validation is way, way harder than attacking your lookup in a lookup cafe WiFi.
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  556. Holger iiro, yes but attacking the way Let's Encrypt performs DNS validation is way, way harder than attacking your lookup in a cafe WiFi.
  557. iiro Yeah, but i doubt anyone runs an xmpp server on a cafe wifi
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  560. Holger People run clients in cafes.
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  563. Holger If you're arguing that DNS traffic can't (easily) be forged in practice then I'd disagree. But if you were right, for what would we need certificates?
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  569. iiro I am not really arguing, more like wondering. I just fear that current certificate infrastructure is over-reliant on dns anyway
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  571. iiro Though doing the dns queries from many places might prevent certain kinds of attacks
  572. MattJ I agree - it's marginally better an verification than the old dialback protocol was (because Let's Encrypt queries from more places than a random XMPP server typically would), and they have some other protections
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  575. MattJ As for which hostname to present, it makes sense to me that you need to present a certificate for the domain that you are claiming to be, regardless of your actual network address
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  577. MattJ Unless a secure chain of trust from the service name to the network address can be established
  578. MattJ If I'm connecting to microsoft.com and DNS resolves to evil.example.com, I'd like to see a cert for microsoft.com, rather than evil.example.com to prove that I'm speaking to the right entity
  579. MattJ Unless I have some more secure way than unencrypted unsigned DNS to validate that microsoft.com really wants evil.example.com to handle their XMPP traffic for them
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  585. MattJ FYI I closed that issue report: https://issues.prosody.im/871#comment-7
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  594. iiro Perhaps there could be an exception that xmpp.example.com would be considered as good as example.com for xmpp purposes
  595. iiro But that too would require consensus
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  603. croax POSH as is a nice and easy to set-up alternative solution but does not seem to be massively accepted at least regarding s2s. It also makes delegation easy for domains you don't own.
  604. MattJ Yeah, I think it's worth pushing POSH more. Also there are promising rumours about service certificates coming from the CAB forum, but we'll see if anything actually happens.
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  606. croax Sure, hearing from this for a long time. Finger crossed :-)
  607. croax Sure, hearing from this for a long time. Fingers crossed :-)
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  773. stpeter Wow, POSH. :-) I'll see Matt Miller at lunch today and mention this to him. :-)
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  780. MattJ :)
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  892. mimi89999 Establishing a secure connection from lebihan.pl to tamytro.org failed. Certificate hash: 7ae362479e00b32a753eceb275fb93bf2a883399931f4598495d45c8099453a4. Error with certificate 0: certificate has expired.
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