XMPP Service Operators - 2021-07-30

Regarding Calyx maybe we can do better as Ops in the _ecosystem_? Eg. Better than Riseup or Blabber.im's fate I mean :)

e.g. https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/106622172668359482 ?

Well, I fear running a free service is often misinterpreted as free of cost. If users realize that running a service is causing costs in terms of money and time and willing to (partly) compensate, this might help

MattJ, ij: I meant help their service (calyx) so they don't need to shutdown (riseup) thinking xmpp can't into privacy That blabber reference might have been not needed, my bad :)

riseup and calyx are weird. They set up an intentionally limited XMPP service without any modern features, and then complain that XMPP is dead because it doesn't support any modern features :)

I'm not sure how they can be helped

Upgrading to Prosody 0.11.x will obviously fix some security issues, but it's not going to change much from a user's perspective

MattJ: riseup said multiple time they'd shutdown their service this what? October? or something.

Right MattJ The message retention is a moot point, use OMEMO, so you can enable MAM and http_upload, use a small retention period, and if you're asked for data from LEA they get useless crypto junk.

Mantaining a public service absorbs time tbh at least for riseup for example if they made it clear they don't have interest in mantaining it, it's better they shutdown it

Maranda[m]: "late August" https://lists.riseup.net/www/arc/xmpp-users/2021-07/msg00000.html That page sounds like Riseup didn't hear about PGP or OMEMO on XMPP. They recommend other systems with encryption... albeit they mostly say _"hosted by others not us"_ lol

Maranda[m]: right, but say that that's the issue, not spread FUD

I'm not sure where they're spreading misinformation tbh: > We have a _couple of problems with XMPP_, **the most important one is that our labor resources are limited and we need to prioritize services that more people relying on**. And if for the FUD you mean: > Also, the past several years have brought new alternatives which do similar work, while providing important features which XMPP does not have.. I don't see it much unpolite that's their opinion. ✏

I'm not sure where they're spreading misinformation tbh: > We have a _couple of problems with XMPP_, **the most important one is that our labor resources are limited and we need to prioritize services that more people relying on**. And if for the FUD you mean: > Also, the past several years have brought new alternatives which do similar work, while providing important features which XMPP does not have.. > I don't see it much unpolite that's their opinion. ✏

I'd just read the main line that they're stretched on resources and want to provide their users the services that are used most aka email and vpn, pads etc.

That's all.

Speaking of calyx, I just checked their records and find this one interesting: > xmpp-dns -s jabber.calyxinstitute.org > xmpp-server ijeeynrc6x2uy5ob.onion. 5269 > Priority: 4 Weight: 0 > … Is this a supported thing that servers with mod_onions use?

It probably works for servers that don't use mod_onions (but have tor). It's not secure though, being served via DNS... :)

Maranda[m]: it irked me that they say that matrix, email and signal are better at having *less* metadata, which, afaik, it's not true

Licaon_Kter: they also mention DeltaChat as an alternative IM which is hilarious, tbh I lose interest there.

Maranda[m]: well, how would you classify it? Also, that [m] in nick means you've defected?

> <@_bifrost_Licaon_Kter=2foperators=40muc.xmpp.org:aria-net.org> Maranda[m]: well, how would you classify it? > > > Also, that [m] in nick means you've defected? It means I'm testing a lot of things lately, and I was asked to improve matrix <-> xmpp bridging lately so I'm doing that, and I have always been involved in building a developing bridges for xmpp in the past.

and about classification, as long as they don't blatantly get deep in untruth and unpolite people can have their own opinion, they made it clear about the true reason they shutdown the xmpp service. Rest is pointless to nitpick on.

Maybe you can implement better quoting in bifrost like they just did in the IRC bridge :)

MattJ, but if you get the onion via the DNS lookup for example.com you can check the cert, like you do for other srv records as well. Right?

MattJ: maybe, if I get in another of my kamikaze moments like I did to fix avatar fetching, I guess being sick and stuck in hospital/home helped having the required time to do that also.

If the XMPP host is example.com, yeah, I guess so

Licaon_Kter: Calyx would probably object even to metadata retention. Does OMEMO address that?

Not sure I understand. I meant: I get srv records for example.com and check the cert to be valid for example.com no matter whether the srv record points to xmpp.example.com or examplealernlsfl23002.onion.

rozzin, essentially no federated protocol addresses that, by their nature

Maranda[m]: classify was about Delta chat...

> Maybe you can implement better quoting in bifrost like they just did in the IRC bridge :) Yeah just cutoff the quote after 10 chars, that's good enough?!!?

rozzin: which metadata? Roster? Bookmarks?

> <@_bifrost_Licaon_Kter=2foperators=40muc.xmpp.org:aria-net.org> Maranda[m]: classify was about Delta chat... IM apps need to be RT, one needs to explain me how you can build a messaging app that uses SMTP as transport that is bound for example to a countless number of delaying mechanisms to fight spam like greylisting, tar pitting, etc. to say one.

MattJ: granted, you can't route without cleartext metadata at the time of routing. Encrypting the data that was used for routing *in the archive, after routing is completed* (or even throwing that info away) seems like it could be do-able....

So you send a message on DeltaChat and it arrives one minute later to the recipient, sounds "nice"

That's called tor, and it exists and is usable :)

Ah also I need to mention daily rate limiting of most free mail services.

> MattJ, ij: I meant help their service (calyx) so they don't need to shutdown (riseup) thinking xmpp can't into privacy > That blabber reference might have been not needed, my bad :) Wasn‘t it part of the calyx complain that it is too much work to continue the service? If there‘s some kind of money in it, that might change, but I‘m also no fan of all services need to be payed, so it‘s a difficult topic to find the best way between cost free and payed premium services

Licaon_Kter: within the scope of the "limited message-retention period and OMEMO" remarks, which is the thing to which I was responding, I guess just the from/to info. But yeah, "can I encrypt and/or time-limit roster entries and bookmarks" is an interesting question too, however separate.

Maybe start an XMPP operators shared fund? :)

Hmm... So for the most part, DeltaChat = Google Mail?

_Decentralized mail it is_

In theory anyway....

but "how will this work when those pre-existing e-mail accounts are hosted by Google" is a pretty good practical example to consider—both because so many e-mail addresses are hosted there and because those users have such a limited ability to actually receive e-mail from outside sources.

rozzin: as long as they exchange some dozen of messages a day.. No problem

When they start using DeltaChat as a real IM app, somewhere along the way they'll hit send/receive rate limit

Maranda[m]: I typically don't worry about my e-mail to GMail users getting rate-limited or delayed, I worry about it getting delivered at all (and when it doesn't, it's dropped silently).

In my experience mails are not dropped but moved to spam and gmail users seem to not check their spam folder…

Martin: no all daily rate limits are 550 errors. Messaging too quickly will end in transient errors (450) as well

Martin: Right. Same thing.

In other words those messages will get bounced not spammed.

Martin: In general I can't really fault them for "not monitoring the spam folder"—I mean..., if you have to read through all of the messages in the spam-trap anyway, what's the point?

The point is you don't get pinged if a message is marked as SPAM. But you should still check it every few days for false positives.

Especially if using gmail which flags every message as spam which is not coming from the big players but a small private server.

small private player here i have okay deliverability to gmail

same here, as long as I use IPv4 for delivery and not IPv6

sending to gmail is not thard hard

sending to m$ is real husstle

No idea whether v4 or v6 is used. Why should it make a difference? ✏

> Martin wrote: > No idea whether v4 or v6 is used. Why should it make a.difference, people are weird

> sending to m$ is real husstle No problem with them here. 😂

> sending to m$ is real husstle It’s sometimes even a hassle for MS to send mails to MS… ;)

:)

Is there a chatroom about email deliverability?

it would be full of rants.

Recently I wanted to send an email to my father (t-online.de) and I had to let them manually unblock my servers IP. 🤔

BTDT

Martin: you selfhost mail?

Yes

Martin, but at least getting on their allowlist is comparably easy. while you have zero chance with facebooglemicrosoft

congrats

jonas’: Indeed, I sent one email and got unblocked.

jonas’: Martin said he has no prob with m$...

Microsoft

Harper: yes, m$ is microshit ;)

m$ and microshit is a bit childish. 😁

i say like this since i was a child.. so probably it is ;)

I can send to m$, had to request my server unblocked. Which they all are by default

Microsoft was no topic for me when I was a child. Afair we got the first computer when I was 13. 🙂 ✏

i got it when i was 7.5

Lucky guy.

and it was '94 xmass ;)

Nice, I was probably 6 or 7. Grade 1, an Amiga 128

'98 here. Late starter. 😁

I think 89, because I remember thinking it was weird to start writing the year different later in the school year

I can't follow.

OT is ok here?

Not really kuba_

😊

Hmm, there have been some incidents lately, so we better stop.

xmpp:public@conference.loranger.xyz?join or xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join

I have too many MUCs already. 😵‍💫

so we should shut the ef up, right? ;)

I only really lurk here and my public room

im on

more than 10 ;)

Speaking of email troubles. I tried to send an email today to web.de, and that mailbox had an internal forwarding to a t-online.de address that bounced. Whom am I supposed to contact now?

> ‎Martin‎: I have too many MUCs already. You are an intelligent person who has a lot to say and versatile interests. It speaks for you.

Ge0rG, I recommand to block web.de and t-online ...

How do I get the Member role?

> You are an intelligent person who has a lot to say and versatile interests. It speaks for you. I'm more reading and less writing. If I write it's most of the time offtopic so your conclusion is probably wrong. 😂

"My knee itches" -- "I recommend amputation"

Mark, add your jid to your server contact info at least temporarily

Lol what

> I'm more reading and less writing. this reinforces my thesis, and does not contradict it

Ge0rG, Can your knee send emails ? :)))

> Lol what Ge0rGs snarky remark just reminded me to listen to that great album again. 😃

zp1.net: no, but my arm can. I've got vaccinated.

My arm was pretty painful when I lifted it after both chippings.

offtopic is leaking 🙂

> offtopic is leaking 🙂 Same happened in the main of Conversations

Martin: you got your arms amputated?

No, got vaccinated. I'm not talking about phantom pain.

but you chipped it off and lifted it

Another type of chipping. Got my 5g chips. 😂

Wait I thought this _was_ the off topic for a second.. lol

To get back to the topoc, there is this Oauth. you can login to Gitlab with an account from github for example.... Couldn't you do something similar for xmpp ? then you log in to a server with an account from another server.

snikket is working on that iirc

zp1.net: https://blog.agayon.be/xmpp_auth_django.html or XEP-0235 ?

> Mark, add your jid to your server contact info at least temporarily Here is the account that should be attached to the contact details

Your server lists no contact details

Huh, must not have saved or updated, give me a sec

MattJ: Can't you just go look at the website?

that is work!

their valuble time!

For sure

You don't need membership to participate here, so it really doesn't matter

MattJ: yeah, but it's something to show I'm an actual operator

The shocking truth: not everyone with membership here is an actual operator :)

Really?

Really

Oh

Well, not really worth the trouble anyway, but that does expose a problem, why won't it update configurations

In other news, it looks like the Tails project may be migrating from riseup to disroot, which is good news

Oh

MattJ, Sorry to interrupt, but how to find out who is the contact person of a certain server? Is there an api call for this ?

I'm not aware of an easy way right now. There are some bots that can do it, and I want to make a web page that does it. And of course there's always XML consoles in some clients...

Profanity shows it in disco info.

Gajim XML console can do it. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0157.html

> <iq from='juliet@capulet.com/chamber' > to='shakespeare.lit' > id='disco1' > type='get'> > <query xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info'/> > </iq>

Can't you just do it from gajim disco directory?

That's suboptimal. We need it as a html/xml api call .. something hat everybody can open in a browser .. Simply like http://server?show_admin_jid

Don't know, didn't try

> That's suboptimal. We need it as a html/xml api call .. something hat everybody can open in a browser .. Simply like http://server?show_admin_jid I think for that people have websites.. If they want to advertise it to more than some _inner circle_ freaks

I think the suggested xmpp@ is really the best. A jid and email address ✏

Or email postmaster@ and ask for their XMPP admin :)

Yes, or hostmaster, admin etc

I agree but there should be a rool

rule

For jid, i use root@

I agree with any of them but I wish it became a rule

this is something the xmpp consortium should decide and make a rule that everybody have to obey. I don't want clear names just a email where I can contact the admin if I have a problem

zp1.net: clients should do 0157 and cache it, no need to add extra steps

`have to obay` is not how xmpp works

Ya everyone operates how they like. A proposed standard would be good, but no guarantee

yes

If a server refuses to follow such a simple rule then I don't want to connect to it.

This is totalitarian. XMPP is not representing that, is it?

I mean zp1.net can write a module to block on that.. Thats the freedom

I don't want or need that

Same, we are all free to operate in our own way. With or without operability with any other server

If I get spam and can't reach the admins thats a different topic. And then I'll terminate federation too

It's ridiculous, let's not exaggerate, I don't want to change the world, I just want administrators to be reachable at a certain email address and that you don't have to search around ... one clear rule for all of us... .

Why unseparably connect one service to another?

And you went from everyone obeys to emails for all admins.

Why not JIDs, if you really need that contacting possibility?

look it is like the port 5222 ... if you do not obey to that rule you can not connect to us

I disagree.

exact I want a JID

root, or admin, or postmaster or something ...

but it should be the rule

> look it is like the port 5222 ... if you do not obey to that rule you can not connect to us When I was on a shared hoster I used 51830 and I could connect to other servers just fine as they obeyed to srv… 🙄

zp1.net: well there's disco

Also I don't understand why we need a dedicated email or jid when there is 0157…

(Martin: snap)

neox: ?

Martin: I was just talking about discovery of "admin-adresses"

> My arm was pretty painful when I lifted it after both chippings. You didn't got one left one right? It's better for receiver diversity!

Both left.