XMPP Service Operators - 2021-12-05

  1. wladmis has left

  2. sonny has left

  3. sonny has joined

  4. jgart has left

  5. wladmis has joined

  6. karme has left

  7. sonny has left

  8. sonny has joined

  9. alacer has joined

  10. alacer has left

  11. uwind7 has joined

  12. kuba_ has left

  13. kuba_ has joined

  14. sonny has left

  15. sonny has joined

  16. wladmis has left

  17. SUN has joined

  18. sonny has left

  19. kuba_ has left

  20. sonny has joined

  21. kuba_ has joined

  22. patasca has joined

  23. neox has left

  24. jgart has joined

  25. mjk has left

  26. neox has joined

  27. Licaon_Kter has left

  28. kuba_ has left

  29. kuba_ has joined

  30. argon3771 has left

  31. spicybits has left

  32. spicybits has joined

  33. dinosaurdynasty has joined

  34. Jonny has left

  35. kazi has joined

  36. Julian has left

  37. alacer has joined

  38. neox has left

  39. Tim has joined

  40. inky has left

  41. patasca has left

  42. argon3771 has joined

  43. patasca has joined

  44. kuba_ has left

  45. loopboom has joined

  46. Jonny has joined

  47. Julian has joined

  48. kuba_ has joined

  49. kuba_ has left

  50. SouL has left

  51. kuba_ has joined

  52. croax has left

  53. kuba_ has left

  54. kuba_ has joined

  55. kuba_ has left

  56. kuba_ has joined

  57. greenkeeper has left

  58. p55s has left

  59. kuba_ has left

  60. patasca has left

  61. kuba_ has joined

  62. me9 has left

  63. junaid has left

  64. arcseconds has joined

  65. arcseconds has left

  66. patasca has joined

  67. serge90 has left

  68. serge90 has joined

  69. kuba_ has left

  70. kuba_ has joined

  71. junaid has joined

  72. kryptos has joined

  73. kuba_ has left

  74. moparisthebest has left

  75. kuba_ has joined

  76. kuba_ has left

  77. kuba_ has joined

  78. moparisthebest has joined

  79. kryptos has left

  80. kuba_ has left

  81. jayteeuk has left

  82. bakunin1848 has left

  83. uwind7 has left

  84. karim has left

  85. karim has joined

  86. kuba_ has joined

  87. *IM* has left

  88. *IM* has joined

  89. kuba_ has left

  90. kuba_ has joined

  91. moparisthebest has left

  92. argon3771 has left

  93. Bjarkan has left

  94. moparisthebest has joined

  95. Jonny has left

  96. kuba_ has left

  97. patasca has left

  98. kuba_ has joined

  99. Jonny has joined

  100. eevvoor has left

  101. eevvoor has joined

  102. argon3771 has joined

  103. kuba_ has left

  104. kuba_ has joined

  105. patasca has joined

  106. alex has left

  107. SUN has left

  108. kuba_ has left

  109. kuba_ has joined

  110. jordon1002 has joined

  111. p55s has joined

  112. SouL has joined

  113. patasca has left

  114. patasca has joined

  115. kuba_ has left

  116. kuba_ has joined

  117. patasca has left

  118. moparisthebest has left

  119. kuba_ has left

  120. kuba_ has joined

  121. moparisthebest has joined

  122. pod has joined

  123. ernst.on.tour has left

  124. ernst.on.tour has joined

  125. jordon1002 has left

  126. sonny has left

  127. sonny has joined

  128. uwind7 has joined

  129. marc0s has left

  130. marc0s has joined

  131. raghavgururajan has left

  132. raghavgururajan has joined

  133. loopboom has left

  134. william.chatner has left

  135. uwind7 has left

  136. Jonny has left

  137. Maranda[x] has left

  138. Maranda[x] has joined

  139. patasca has joined

  140. croax has joined

  141. Jonny has joined

  142. Jakob has joined

  143. mimi89999 has left

  144. mimi89999 has joined

  145. 大明白20210720 has left

  146. mogad0n has left

  147. 大明白20210720 has joined

  148. mogad0n has joined

  149. Bjarkan has joined

  150. Bjarkan has left

  151. Menel has joined

  152. wael has joined

  153. patasca has left

  154. suren has left

  155. suren has joined

  156. patasca has joined

  157. Douglas Terabyte has left

  158. Menel has left

  159. Menel has joined

  160. Douglas Terabyte has joined

  161. TheCoffeMaker

    cyberdelia's public MUCs were his target too ... but two days later, with second jid ... but what moparisthebest said is true, malisious reports are a threat too. I did solve it by closing registation and only giving accounts to users that I know and trust, their families and friends, but that's my usecase ... If one of cyberdelia's accounts is causing issues I can take may car and drive to his/her home and have a talk (meaning I really khow who they are) ... but how to solve without making XMPP another email like service administration hell ?

  162. moparisthebest has left

  163. SUN has joined

  164. ibikk has joined

  165. Steven Roose has left

  166. 大明白20210720 has left

  167. 大明白20210720 has joined

  168. kazi has left

  169. kazi has joined

  170. moparisthebest has joined

  171. patasca has left

  172. Bjarkan has joined

  173. patasca has joined

  174. Steven Roose has joined

  175. 大明白20210720 has left

  176. 大明白20210720 has joined

  177. jgart has left

  178. patasca has left

  179. 大明白20210720 has left

  180. 大明白20210720 has joined

  181. Martin has left

  182. Martin has joined

  183. Bjarkan has left

  184. patasca has joined

  185. jgart has joined

  186. Bjarkan has joined

  187. Bjarkan has left

  188. Bjarkan has joined

  189. 0ahdaf0 has joined

  190. marc has joined

  191. Bjarkan has left

  192. emus has left

  193. alberto has joined

  194. Licaon_Kter has joined

  195. xi has left

  196. xi has joined

  197. anu2019 has joined

  198. MattJ

    TheCoffeMaker, that's pretty much the use-case Snikket tries to satisfy (a server for family/friends/people-you-know), while trying to make it as easy as possible (easier than email hosting for sure)

  199. millesimus has joined

  200. balabol.im has joined

  201. writer77 has joined

  202. Bjarkan has joined

  203. kazi has left

  204. wladmis has joined

  205. wladmis has left

  206. wladmis has joined

  207. Steven Roose has left

  208. Steven Roose has joined

  209. kazi has joined

  210. anu2019 has left

  211. Huxx has joined

  212. 大明白20210720 has left

  213. 大明白20210720 has joined

  214. jl4 has joined

  215. bakunin1848 has joined

  216. karim has left

  217. karim has joined

  218. mjk has joined

  219. karme has joined

  220. greenkeeper has joined

  221. Ivan A. has joined

  222. uwind7 has joined

  223. karim has left

  224. karim has joined

  225. eevvoor has left

  226. eevvoor has joined

  227. anu2019 has joined

  228. msavoritias has joined

  229. karim has left

  230. karim has joined

  231. eevvoor has left

  232. eevvoor has joined

  233. eevvoor has left

  234. eevvoor has joined

  235. raghavgururajan has left

  236. karim has left

  237. karim has joined

  238. 0ahdaf0 has left

  239. eevvoor has left

  240. eevvoor has joined

  241. wladmis has left

  242. Maranda[x] has left

  243. Maranda[x] has joined

  244. karim has left

  245. karim has joined

  246. 大明白20210720 has left

  247. 大明白20210720 has joined

  248. karim has left

  249. DebXWoody has left

  250. karim has joined

  251. eevvoor has left

  252. eevvoor has joined

  253. 404.city has joined

  254. 0ahdaf0 has joined

  255. 404.city has left

  256. jgart has left

  257. Maranda[x] has left

  258. DebXWoody has joined

  259. eevvoor has left

  260. eevvoor has joined

  261. alex has joined

  262. alex has left

  263. madmalkav has joined

  264. jgart has joined

  265. loopboom has joined

  266. eevvoor has left

  267. eevvoor has joined

  268. alex has joined

  269. alex has left

  270. alex has joined

  271. Bjarkan has left

  272. eevvoor has left

  273. eevvoor has joined

  274. uwind7 has left

  275. jgart has left

  276. emus has joined

  277. eevvoor has left

  278. eevvoor has joined

  279. rob has left

  280. rob has joined

  281. moparisthebest has left

  282. mightyBroccoli has left

  283. [czar] has joined

  284. kikuchiyo

    moparisthebest: > Like I don't like you so I report everything you say as spam, that kind of thing It's not a system that uses manual reporting, not even content, but bulky traffic.

  285. eevvoor has left

  286. eevvoor has joined

  287. kikuchiyo

    > setting up a central server to handle reporting and checking is easy, though probably a privacy nightmare It's a distributed system, DCC servers exchange common checksums.

  288. raghavgururajan has joined

  289. kazi has left

  290. Echo1 has left

  291. Echo1 has joined

  292. eevvoor has left

  293. eevvoor has joined

  294. 大明白20210720 has left

  295. 大明白20210720 has joined

  296. kazi has joined

  297. Maranda[x] has joined

  298. eevvoor has left

  299. eevvoor has joined

  300. neox has joined

  301. eevvoor has left

  302. eevvoor has joined

  303. mightyBroccoli has joined

  304. bakunin1848 has left

  305. eevvoor has left

  306. eevvoor has joined

  307. raghavgururajan has left

  308. patasca has left

  309. karim has left

  310. karim has joined

  311. eevvoor has left

  312. eevvoor has joined

  313. bakunin1848 has joined

  314. patasca has joined

  315. eevvoor has left

  316. eevvoor has joined

  317. madmalkav has left

  318. MattJ

    The problem with applying content analysis is that there is often too little data to work with

  319. MattJ

    Which is one reason a bunch of spam senders first send "Hi" or "Hello" (often in Russian)

  320. MattJ

    If you successfully match this, you also flag pretty much anyone starting a conversation as a spammer

  321. 大明白20210720 has left

  322. MattJ

    I meant to say "the problem with applying content analysis **in IM**"

  323. eevvoor has left

  324. MattJ

    What works for email doesn't map well to shorter message

  325. eevvoor has joined

  326. eevvoor has left

  327. eevvoor has joined

  328. patasca has left

  329. kusoneko has left

  330. kusoneko has joined

  331. eevvoor has left

  332. eevvoor has joined

  333. Mjolnir Archon has left

  334. Maranda has left

  335. eevvoor has left

  336. riccio has left

  337. eevvoor has joined

  338. riccio has joined

  339. 大明白20210720 has joined

  340. eevvoor has left

  341. eevvoor has joined

  342. վարյա has joined

  343. eevvoor has left

  344. eevvoor has joined

  345. patasca has joined

  346. eevvoor has left

  347. eevvoor has joined

  348. kikuchiyo

    > Hi is ping spam.

  349. 大明白20210720 has left

  350. Bjarkan has joined

  351. 大明白20210720 has joined

  352. kikuchiyo

    Private chats are different and should not be monitored (since they should be encrypted anyway).

  353. Martin has left

  354. Martin has joined

  355. kazi has left

  356. eevvoor has left

  357. eevvoor has joined

  358. kuba_ has left

  359. kuba_ has joined

  360. Bjarkan has left

  361. kazi has joined

  362. eevvoor has left

  363. eevvoor has joined

  364. sonny has left

  365. sonny has joined

  366. Martin has left

  367. Martin has joined

  368. sonny has left

  369. sonny has joined

  370. eevvoor has left

  371. eevvoor has joined

  372. lorddavidiii has left

  373. patasca has left

  374. Martin has left

  375. Martin has joined

  376. kikuchiyo

    Spam filtering should be applied to non-members in unmoderated rooms. That way it would keep public MUCs relatively open.

  377. eevvoor has left

  378. eevvoor has joined

  379. madmalkav has joined

  380. eevvoor has left

  381. eevvoor has joined

  382. Martin has left

  383. 大明白20210720 has left

  384. kazi has left

  385. 大明白20210720 has joined

  386. kazi has joined

  387. Martin has joined

  388. eevvoor has left

  389. Martin has left

  390. eevvoor has joined

  391. Martin has joined

  392. eevvoor has left

  393. madmalkav has left

  394. eevvoor has joined

  395. eevvoor has left

  396. insanity has left

  397. eevvoor has joined

  398. Martin has left

  399. patasca has joined

  400. Martin has joined

  401. Maranda[x] has left

  402. loopboom has left

  403. Maranda[x] has joined

  404. kikuchiyo

    _Monolog prevention_ A related problem are *monologues* - meaning single users spamming public space with preaching/ranting/bulky links. E.g. there was a troll attack in several open MUCs Nov 5th remember? > Hello human!!, I have the best gay porn for you, your friends and family :D! You're welcome! [...] A prevention could be similar to iPhone's brute force mitigation: slow down sending frequency if nobody responds. That would have prevented the infamous Darkijah spam too.

  405. Martin has left

  406. spicybits has left

  407. Martin has joined

  408. eevvoor has left

  409. eevvoor has joined

  410. inky has joined

  411. eevvoor has left

  412. eevvoor has joined

  413. spicybits has joined

  414. jl4 has left

  415. eevvoor has left

  416. eevvoor has joined

  417. Martin has left

  418. Martin has joined

  419. patasca has left

  420. Martin has left

  421. Martin has joined

  422. eevvoor has left

  423. eevvoor has joined

  424. Martin has left

  425. ' has left

  426. eevvoor has left

  427. Martin has joined

  428. eevvoor has joined

  429. Martin has left

  430. insanity has joined

  431. Martin has joined

  432. insanity has left

  433. insanity has joined

  434. insanity has left

  435. Martin has left

  436. insanity has joined

  437. Bjarkan has joined

  438. insanity has left

  439. Martin has joined

  440. madmalkav has joined

  441. insanity has joined

  442. Martin has left

  443. kryptos has joined

  444. Martin has joined

  445. Martin has left

  446. Martin has joined

  447. eevvoor has left

  448. eevvoor has joined

  449. Martin has left

  450. Martin has joined

  451. Martin has left

  452. Martin has joined

  453. jayteeuk has joined

  454. 大明白20210720 has left

  455. 大明白20210720 has joined

  456. MattJ

    The problem with all the things you are suggesting is that they have a high chance of false positives

  457. MattJ

    You just sent 4 messages with nobody else responding, I sent 5 before that

  458. MattJ

    Rate limits already exist, but there is a line to choose between aggressively stopping/slowing bursts of spam and disrupting normal communication

  459. inky has left

  460. creep.im has left

  461. madmalkav has left

  462. creep.im has joined

  463. 大明白20210720 has left

  464. Martin has left

  465. 大明白20210720 has joined

  466. Martin has joined

  467. Bjarkan has left

  468. Bjarkan has joined

  469. Martin has left

  470. Martin has joined

  471. balabol.im has left

  472. balabol.im has joined

  473. ian has left

  474. ian has joined

  475. Martin has left

  476. Bjarkan has left

  477. Martin has joined

  478. andrey.utkin has left

  479. william.chatner has joined

  480. Martin has left

  481. Martin has joined

  482. Martin has left

  483. Martin has joined

  484. lorddavidiii has joined

  485. Martin has left

  486. Martin has joined

  487. patasca has joined

  488. eevvoor has left

  489. eevvoor has joined

  490. Bjarkan has joined

  491. andrey.utkin has joined

  492. Bjarkan has left

  493. 大明白20210720 has left

  494. 大明白20210720 has joined

  495. Menel has left

  496. Menel has joined

  497. jgart has joined

  498. jgart has left

  499. marc0s has left

  500. marc0s has joined

  501. Bjarkan has joined

  502. mathieui

    The truth here is that there is no way to get an universal rule for this, doing things à la IRC (aggressive rate limit on everything) is painful in many cases, the only appropriate way would be to plug some kind of auto moderator that room owners tailor to their needs

  503. վարյա has left

  504. վարյա has joined

  505. 大明白20210720 has left

  506. me9 has joined

  507. 大明白20210720 has joined

  508. kazi has left

  509. jl4 has joined

  510. Bjarkan has left

  511. kazi has joined

  512. madmalkav has joined

  513. Martin has left

  514. վարյա has left

  515. վարյա has joined

  516. Martin has joined

  517. Martin has left

  518. Martin has joined

  519. Martin has left

  520. Martin has joined

  521. homebeach has left

  522. homebeach has joined

  523. Martin has left

  524. Martin has joined

  525. Martin has left

  526. Martin has joined

  527. Bjarkan has joined

  528. croax has left

  529. croax has joined

  530. 0ahdaf0 has left

  531. abslimit has left

  532. kryptos has left

  533. lorddavidiii has left

  534. Bjarkan has left

  535. patasca has left

  536. patasca has joined

  537. emus has left

  538. jl4 has left

  539. patasca has left

  540. patasca has joined

  541. abslimit has joined

  542. kikuchiyo

    > the only appropriate way would be to plug some kind of auto moderator that room owners tailor to their needs That would not be aware of bulk spam in other MUCs. That's where DCC is better.

  543. kryptos has joined

  544. karim has left

  545. karim has joined

  546. kikuchiyo

    > You just sent 4 messages with nobody else responding, I sent 5 before that Wouldn't be a false positive for members, if the spam filter is applied to non-members only.

  547. Jakob has left

  548. Jakob has joined

  549. jonas’

    sending a bunch of messages is typical though for a well-formulated support case

  550. jonas’

    and having noone reply initially is also typical

  551. me9

    Would false positives even matter much if spam filtering was only applied to non-members as kikuchiyo suggested? Anyone who wouldn't want to be affected by that would just need to convince an admin to make them a member.

  552. me9

    kikuchiyo: Oh, you just said the same thing. ^^

  553. 大明白20210720 has left

  554. kikuchiyo

    me9: 👍

  555. 大明白20210720 has joined

  556. madmalkav has left

  557. emus has joined

  558. վարյա has left

  559. emus

    maybe more limits if this is the first message posted at all

  560. վարյա has joined

  561. 大明白20210720 has left

  562. 大明白20210720 has joined

  563. MRZA has joined

  564. kryptos has left

  565. madmalkav has joined

  566. me9

    emus: What kind of limits do you mean?

  567. ian has left

  568. ian has joined

  569. վարյա has left

  570. վարյա has joined

  571. lorddavidiii has joined

  572. balabol.im has left

  573. Martin

    Someone who joins a support muc for the first time because he needs urgent help might not be member.

  574. balabol.im has joined

  575. me9

    Uhh, but when I think about it, having an annoying and IRC-like rate limit thing that doesn't work all that well, and applying that to every new participant is not a very elegant solution, is it?

  576. me9

    Martin: Yeah, right. And limiting such support cases wouldn't be great.

  577. Martin

    You could have a voting mechanism for members and if $threshold members report it as spam mute the person. But that might be abused.

  578. me9

    That's like the community being an admin if "powerful" enough. Meh.

  579. Martin

    I'm also annoyed by spammers and if I knew a good solution I'd tell you but I think a lot of clever people thought about this and we still have no solution.

  580. kuba_ has left

  581. kuba_ has joined

  582. 大明白20210720 has left

  583. 大明白20210720 has joined

  584. marc0s has left

  585. marc0s has joined

  586. lorddavidiii has left

  587. jl4 has joined

  588. MRZA has left

  589. patasca has left

  590. Bjarkan has joined

  591. wladmis has joined

  592. lorddavidiii has joined

  593. Licaon_Kter

    This was my experience with IRC > Eg. Distros having IRC for support, install it, have an issue, join...50-100 people on..."hey, can anyone tell me why X isn't working?" > Wait...no answer for a while, neither RTFM nor Hi nor anything. > IRC is dead...

  594. MRZA has joined

  595. argon3771 has left

  596. Sapotaceae

    I love seeing the Matrix rooms with 1k+ memebers, but still dead

  597. Sapotaceae

    because they're literally 👻️

  598. inky has joined

  599. patasca has joined

  600. karme has left

  601. argon3771 has joined

  602. վարյա has left

  603. վարյա has joined

  604. վարյա has left

  605. վարյա has joined

  606. 大明白20210720 has left

  607. 大明白20210720 has joined

  608. Bjarkan has left

  609. uwind7 has joined

  610. 大明白20210720 has left

  611. 大明白20210720 has joined

  612. riccio has left

  613. balabol.im has left

  614. riccio has joined

  615. Bjarkan has joined

  616. balabol.im has joined

  617. patasca has left

  618. 大明白20210720 has left

  619. sonny has left

  620. sonny has joined

  621. 大明白20210720 has joined

  622. MattJ

    Martin [13:39]: > You could have a voting mechanism for members and if $threshold members report it as spam mute the person. But that might be abused. We had this feature in an XMPP bot 10 years ago... I guess it didn't take off 🙂

  623. madmalkav has left

  624. MattJ

    I did use it in the crazy off-topic channel on conference.jabber.org, but I believe it was often gamed

  625. jgart has joined

  626. jl4 has left

  627. Bjarkan has left

  628. 大明白20210720 has left

  629. jl4 has joined

  630. 大明白20210720 has joined

  631. kuba_ has left

  632. kuba_ has joined

  633. alacer has left

  634. qy has joined

  635. Bjarkan has joined

  636. sonny has left

  637. sonny has joined

  638. homebeach has left

  639. homebeach has joined

  640. ru_maniac has left

  641. Bjarkan has left

  642. kazi has left

  643. kazi has joined

  644. madmalkav has joined

  645. ross has left

  646. ross has joined

  647. alacer has joined

  648. ru_maniac has joined

  649. kryptos has joined

  650. b43 has left

  651. Bjarkan has joined

  652. 大明白20210720 has left

  653. kuba_ has left

  654. kuba_ has joined

  655. 大明白20210720 has joined

  656. inky has left

  657. madmalkav has left

  658. kryptos has left

  659. wladmis has left

  660. greenkeeper has left

  661. loopboom has joined

  662. ru_maniac has left

  663. ru_maniac has joined

  664. loopboom has left

  665. jgart has left

  666. jl4 has left

  667. 大明白20210720 has left

  668. patasca has joined

  669. uwind7 has left

  670. 大明白20210720 has joined

  671. sven has left

  672. sven has joined

  673. 大明白20210720 has left

  674. 大明白20210720 has joined

  675. lorddavidiii has left

  676. kuba_ has left

  677. patasca has left

  678. patasca has joined

  679. kuba_ has joined

  680. uwind7 has joined

  681. lorddavidiii has joined

  682. madmalkav has joined

  683. anu2019 has left

  684. perflyst has joined

  685. վարյա has left

  686. patasca has left

  687. anu2019 has joined

  688. neox has left

  689. kuba_ has left

  690. kuba_ has joined

  691. creep.im has left

  692. creep.im has joined

  693. kuba_ has left

  694. 大明白20210720 has left

  695. 大明白20210720 has joined

  696. kuba_ has joined

  697. jayteeuk has left

  698. jayteeuk has joined

  699. վարյա has joined

  700. greenkeeper has joined

  701. greenkeeper has left

  702. greenkeeper has joined

  703. karme has joined

  704. neox has joined

  705. uwind7 has left

  706. BaBa has joined

  707. antranigv has left

  708. antranigv has joined

  709. BaBa has left

  710. BaBa has joined

  711. perflyst has left

  712. antranigv has left

  713. adrian@kiess.onl has joined

  714. TheCoffeMaker

    Sorry for the delay ... Had to go to bed 😅 ... too much wine for the night TL:DR: What can we do for the smallest servers? coz this can be a serious issue to get people/communities deploying new XMPP nodes. MattJ: For our use case, while you are not publishing or sharing your domain name it will away from spammers ... mine actually was running with no issues till yesterday ... a good bunch of years, around 10 years now. The problem with spam control in a distributted environment is trust, how can we trust each other? I mean, for big servers it's easy ... but what about the smaller servers like mine or others like MattJ said? ... how can u trust in me? I can take local actions like banning the jids at server level, but If I report a 404.city or jabber.org user in the distributed system or what if I deploy lots of servers just to handle the ranking? Sorry for the long message

  715. TheCoffeMaker

    Sorry for the delay ... Had to go to bed 😅 ... too much wine for the night TL:DR: What can we do for the smallest servers? coz this can be a serious issue to get people/communities deploying new XMPP nodes. MattJ: For our use case, while you are not publishing or sharing your domain name it will away from spammers ... mine actually was running with no issues till yesterday ... a good bunch of years, around 10 years now. The problem with spam control in a distributted environment is trust, how can we trust each other? I mean, for big servers it's easy ... but what about the smaller servers like mine or others like MattJ said? ... how can u trust in me? I can take local actions like banning the jids at server level, but If I report a 404.city or jabber.org user in the distributed system but it only spam on my server or what if I deploy lots of servers just to handle the ranking? Sorry for the long message

  716. me9 has left

  717. kazi has left

  718. kikuchiyo

    > That's like the community being an admin if "powerful" enough. Meh. It's better to discriminate *traffic patterns* than jids or content to preserve freedom of speech.

  719. Menel

    Wenn can do this: https://blog.prosody.im/simple-anti-spam-tips/ https://github.com/JabberSPAM The simpelest thing is, have some burden to register.

  720. kuba_ has left

  721. kazi has joined

  722. kuba_ has joined

  723. kryptos has joined

  724. uwind7 has joined

  725. kryptos has left

  726. madmalkav has left

  727. kuba_ has left

  728. jl4 has joined

  729. kuba_ has joined

  730. uwind7 has left

  731. kuba_ has left

  732. serge90 has left

  733. anu2019 has left

  734. argon3771 has left

  735. Bjarkan has left

  736. kuba_ has joined

  737. 大明白20210720 has left

  738. 大明白20210720 has joined

  739. Steven Roose has left

  740. TheCoffeMaker

    Nice article Menel , thx ... Will have a deeper look at it as soon as we can sit and try the recommendations

  741. Steven Roose has joined

  742. marc0s has left

  743. marc0s has joined

  744. anu2019 has joined

  745. madmalkav has joined

  746. argon3771 has joined

  747. Steven Roose has left

  748. Steven Roose has joined

  749. MRZA has left

  750. MRZA has joined

  751. ij has left

  752. kikuchiyo

    > The simpelest thing is, have some burden to register. Not if you want to encourage self hosting like snikket. Spammer can be their own operators and you end up discriminating servers/IPs instead of traffic.

  753. 大明白20210720 has left

  754. 大明白20210720 has joined

  755. homebeach has left

  756. homebeach has joined

  757. croax has left

  758. croax has joined

  759. Menel

    I'll of course block the whole server after the steps listed on that github, especially if its snikket. I've no problem discriminating against that server.

  760. madmalkav has left

  761. anu2019 has left

  762. madmalkav has joined

  763. acidsys has left

  764. Menel

    Thinking of it... If its snikket and I get spam from multiple accounts there, I'll assume its a server dedicated to spam and will not wait that long for a response

  765. me9 has joined

  766. Menel

    The good thing about an invite system.. Its very unlikely to be a source of spam. Since its not a thing to register anonymously. (Its possible, sharing invites randomly in the internet.., but not the snikket intend) So I don't think I'll see snikket spam

  767. kazi has left

  768. վարյա has left

  769. վարյա has joined

  770. marc0s has left

  771. marc0s has joined

  772. kryptos has joined

  773. Սամուէլ has joined

  774. loopboom has joined

  775. Sapotaceae

    Is there a list of servers that require registration so one can only allow those?

  776. antranigv has joined

  777. Sapotaceae

    Like ones that meet a criteria for eg. Captcha at a minimum or manual approval

  778. ij has joined

  779. TheCoffeMaker

    Menel: me neither .. But who knows ... I think that ita like u said ... If we see a lot of spamming comming from one server and no other jids seem to be real ... blacklisting the server is a good option ... But again ... We are talking abt trust ... Sapotaceae ... What will happend with nodes like mine that are not providing thos mechanisms?

  780. TheCoffeMaker

    Menel: me neither .. But who knows ... I think that its like u said ... If we see a lot of spamming comming from one server and no other jids seem to be real ... blacklisting the server is a good option ... But again ... We are talking abt trust ... Sapotaceae ... What will happend with nodes like mine that are not providing thos mechanisms?

  781. TheCoffeMaker

    Menel: me neither .. But who knows ... I think that its like u said ... If we see a lot of spamming comming from one server and no other jids seem to be real ... blacklisting the server is a good option ... But again ... We are talking abt trust ... Sapotaceae ... What will happend with nodes like mine that are not providing those mechanisms?

  782. Sapotaceae

    Why wouldn't one have such mechanisms in place?

  783. Sapotaceae

    Why would you want someone to be able to mass create accounts on your server?

  784. Sapotaceae

    Open question

  785. TheCoffeMaker

    In my use case .. i dont cause registration is closed and only give accounts to people I know and trust

  786. Sapotaceae

    Yes so that meets the 'manual approval' criteria

  787. TheCoffeMaker

    But thats my use case

  788. Menel

    If the federating xmpp network would be as relevant as WhatsApp/email. I'm sure the same bad blocking etc would be nessesary as its in mail. Because the spam would be unbearable otherwise.

  789. TheCoffeMaker

    > Yes so that meets the 'manual approval' criteria Yeap

  790. anu2019 has joined

  791. Սամուէլ has left

  792. Սամուէլ has joined

  793. b43 has joined

  794. Սամուէլ has left

  795. marc0s has left

  796. marc0s has joined

  797. antranigv has left

  798. antranigv has joined

  799. alberto has left

  800. me9 has left

  801. jl4 has left

  802. madmalkav has left

  803. marc0s has left

  804. marc0s has joined

  805. me9 has joined

  806. 404.city has joined

  807. Douglas Terabyte has left

  808. moparisthebest has joined

  809. 404.city has left

  810. moparisthebest

    Captcha doesn't stop these people at all

  811. BaBa has left

  812. moparisthebest

    Captcha doesn't even stop bots, it's all for training image recognition ai now

  813. Sapotaceae

    It is still some barrier

  814. Sapotaceae

    Combine it with aggressive rate limits

  815. Sapotaceae

    Per IP and global

  816. Link Mauve

    Barrier for regular users mostly.

  817. Sapotaceae

    Yes captchas are an accessibility hazard

  818. MattJ

    Sapotaceae, we did that on jabber.org, and we were still getting 200 spam registrations in a day

  819. Link Mauve

    And rate limits for regular users who only have a single IP, while spammers have unlimited IPs.

  820. Sapotaceae

    Yes I remember someone here said that someone did 2000 hcaptchas in a day

  821. MattJ

    Yes, the registrations were from all different IPs, they went through reCaptcha (the original version)

  822. MRZA has left

  823. Sapotaceae

    Spam is hard. I'm not an expert. What is the path the community needs to take to further combat it?

  824. Sapotaceae

    I know few people even bother with implementing the jabberspam blocklist

  825. jonas’

    it also doesn't help with egress spam at al

  826. jonas’

    it also doesn't help with egress spam at all

  827. Sapotaceae

    The Tor network has a function where newly added nodes aren't advertised until a period of time has passed and then it starts slowly ramping up traffic towards then. What about a function where new users have no voice by default until they've been manually allowed, but if they get approved on one well-known/longstanding server then they are in the future granted voice by default.

  828. wladmis has joined

  829. jonas’

    Sapotaceae, has the same issue as the reverse approach, really.

  830. jonas’

    (also, it isn't working really well with Tor, or so I hear (KAX17))

  831. kazi has joined

  832. moparisthebest

    Sounds pretty hostile towards new users though

  833. MRZA has joined

  834. Sapotaceae


  835. Martin

    Also, how would you know how old an user on a remote server is?

  836. b43 has left

  837. moparisthebest

    I'm not trying to shoot down every idea, it's just a hard problem, I haven't seen anything that's not a dial between "super real user hostile vs free spam"

  838. Sapotaceae


  839. jonas’

    relevant: https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt

  840. antranigv has left

  841. antranigv has joined

  842. argon3771 has left

  843. argon3771 has joined

  844. Sapotaceae


  845. Calvin

    Why do people spam XMPP anyway? I get that it’s easy in some sense, but there aren’t that many users on public servers, are there? Seems like you would have very few (if any) people biting for a scam. Is it really profitable?

  846. moparisthebest

    All of that is too real lol

  847. kazi has left

  848. moparisthebest

    This one made me laugh out loud: > It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it

  849. kazi has joined

  850. Douglas Terabyte has joined

  851. madmalkav has joined

  852. jonas’

    Calvin, [x] Extreme profitability of spam ;)

  853. b43 has joined

  854. Bjarkan has joined

  855. Calvin


  856. wladmis has left

  857. moparisthebest

    Calvin: my gut feeling is the same as yours, it shouldn't be profitable, but obviously is or it'd stop on it's own

  858. diane has left

  859. diane has joined

  860. antranigv has left

  861. kazi has left

  862. jjrh

    It's cheap to spam so even if it only ever works 1/1000000 of the time it was profitable.

  863. Bjarkan has left

  864. inky has joined

  865. kryptos has left

  866. jjrh

    IRC has a bunch of spam and I can't imagine people going "oh that's something i'm interested in!" but clearly it does work or they wouldn't do it.

  867. madmalkav has left

  868. Sapotaceae

    Matrix too

  869. SUN has left

  870. rozzin

    moparisthebest: my gut feeling is there's a first mover / early adopter cohort for everything—roughly definable as the ones who try things out that *aren't* profitable in hopes that they just aren't profitable *yet*....

  871. rozzin

    moparisthebest: well, that and "what do I have to lose vs. what do I have to gain" risk/reward calculations.

  872. jjrh

    Really though, how much does it cost to spam XMPP?

  873. Sapotaceae

    You can probably make a spam bot in 30mins

  874. Sapotaceae

    So $0

  875. me9 has left

  876. rozzin

    Interestingly the "daniel" person who mass-pinged MUCs the other day with "I... can accept money" got some "WTF are you doing?" type responses... and engaged with those people; rather than being a send-only "visit this URL" or "contact this address" mass-poster.

  877. Martin

    Seems to be a meatbot. 😃

  878. rozzin


  879. antranigv has joined

  880. rozzin

    In any case, I see something like 1 spammer every 6 months or something on XMPP..., which makes me doubt the "risk/reward" calculations of people jumping to "fix the spam problem with XMPP".

  881. Sapotaceae

    My concern is that it could get worse at anytime and we'll be headless chicken

  882. rozzin

    ... though my personal favorite idea is something like "just block and service that has more than 1000 users".

  883. rozzin

    ... though my personal favorite idea is something like "just block any service that has more than 1000 users".

  884. argon3771 has left

  885. argon3771 has joined

  886. kazi has joined

  887. rozzin

    Projects lile Snikket that could radically increase the hoster/user ratio are of great interest for me.

  888. jjrh

    I think a simple central 'block list' and a server module that checks it for updates would be fine.

  889. croax

    jjrh: then we get back on the _general_ definition of spam and get ready to have removal requests

  890. insanity has left

  891. rozzin

    I feel like that was probably a more interesting line of inquiry 30 years when it was a new idea in e-email administration.

  892. jjrh

    Eh I think it's a trust thing, if say conversations, XSF, and prosody main muc's all block the same person I can be pretty certain that is spam

  893. Menel

    > I think a simple central 'block list' and a server module that checks it for updates would be fine. You mean a bit like the one mattj just wrote while we were talking? https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_rtbl.html

  894. jjrh


  895. insanity has joined

  896. madmalkav has joined

  897. Sapotaceae

    Oh wow

  898. Sapotaceae

    70 mins ago? Where was it mentioned?

  899. jjrh

    I think people just find spam to be a interesting technical problem to solve.

  900. argon3771 has left

  901. Sapotaceae

    I assume it has more bits in snikket?

  902. b43 has left

  903. rozzin

    BTW I'm still trying to figure out this "e-mail spammers apparently don't use DNS" phenomenon that I noticed a couple of years ago.

  904. jjrh

    What is snikket anyways? Just a easy to install XMPP server?

  905. Menel


  906. Sapotaceae

    Along with tons of polish on top

  907. Menel

    More on snikket.org

  908. jjrh

    Yeah i'm looking at the website it's unclear to me.

  909. Ellenor Bjornsd.

    > moparisthebest wrote: > When I read DCC I immediately think of the bad old days lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Client-to-Client You mean Jingle before there was XMPP? :)

  910. Bjarkan has joined

  911. jjrh

    I feel like they could explain their technology stack a bit more. Like it's not even clear to me what the server is (I can guess by the modules it's prosody)

  912. 0ahdaf0 has joined

  913. Menel

    jjrh: its prosody in a docker, preconfigured with special modules for family and friends. Has a admin_web interface, coturn in docker, and advanced forks of other apps for android and iOS

  914. alacer has left

  915. antranigv has left

  916. jjrh

    Would be nice if they explained that a bit more - like going to the website it's not even clear it's based on XMPP 😛

  917. raghavgururajan has joined

  918. jjrh

    That said, it's a great idea 🙂

  919. Bjarkan has left

  920. kazi has left

  921. MattJ

    jjrh, Snikket isn't really aiming at people who already know what XMPP is. In fact if you already know what XMPP is, you very likely know enough to configure Prosody or ejabberd yourself

  922. MattJ

    Still, there are some more detailed explanations, such as https://snikket.org/about/goals/

  923. MattJ

    and https://snikket.org/open-source/

  924. Licaon_Kter

    jjrh: > Would be nice if they explained that a bit more - like going to the website it's not even clear it's based on XMPP 😛 If you care what's under the hood, you are not the target audience

  925. antranigv has joined

  926. Licaon_Kter

    > Along with tons of polish on top It's mostly English, not Polish :)

  927. jjrh

    That's fair. I guess it's more a question of if there is anything Snikket offers that is of benefit or interest to someone like myself. I gather not.

  928. MattJ

    The only thing it has that can't easily be replicated in a DIY XMPP setup is the web interface

  929. jgart has joined

  930. jjrh

    What do you use for a web client?

  931. MattJ

    It doesn't have an official web client right now

  932. jjrh

    I seems you're not recommending any desktop clients either?

  933. reedhhw has left

  934. MattJ

    There's no official desktop client either. See https://snikket.org/faq/#q-can-i-use-the-snikket-apps-with-a-non-snikket-server for alternative client suggestions

  935. jgart has left

  936. jgart has joined

  937. jjrh

    Please don't take what I say as negative or critical - I think Snikket is a fantastic idea and exactly what the XMPP ecosystem needs.

  938. MattJ

    Haha, no, it's nothing I've not heard before... believe me :)

  939. MattJ

    Snikket does not present itself the same as other XMPP projects, does not target the XMPP community, and therefore is often misunderstood by XMPP folk when they first encounter it

  940. argon3771 has joined

  941. jjrh

    I mostly am interested in what you guys are doing to overcome the problems I run into which are mostly windows, osx and ios clients.

  942. jjrh

    And webclient - but converse.js is pretty good, could just use a bit of UI love.

  943. MattJ

    iOS has been quite a journey, but we ended up building on top of Siskin (including sponsoring some stuff)

  944. madmalkav has left

  945. antranigv has left

  946. MattJ

    Web is probably the next focus, just because it's an easy way to reach every platform. And yes, Converse.js is definitely one of the options.

  947. jjrh

    iOS is by far the most difficult I have run into - a coworker who would like to use xmpp on his iphone has basically given up.

  948. MattJ

    Right. That's the story I've heard so many times, and have spent most of my time this year trying to fix :)

  949. Calvin

    The latest Siskin release seems miles better at least (as a sad iOS user who has given up many times)

  950. MattJ

    Yes, definitely

  951. jjrh

    Converse.js really just needs someone to make it look like matrix/slack/discord/whatsapp/messenger. A young hipster webdev basically 🙂

  952. Link Mauve

    jjrh, I did that once, it’s the concord theme.

  953. Link Mauve

    My inspiration was Discord back then, from a few screenshots people provided.

  954. Link Mauve

    I was fed up of everyone calling it “not modern”, so I just copied all of the colours and some other elements, and they were all “woah it looks modern!” afterwards. ^^'

  955. MattJ


  956. Link Mauve

    So dull grey > orange.

  957. jjrh

    got a screenshot? google isn't giving me much

  958. Link Mauve

    With > meaning “looks more modern than”.

  959. kryptos has joined

  960. inky has left

  961. Link Mauve

    jjrh, https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/pull/1167

  962. jjrh


  963. Link Mauve

    It changed a bit since then.

  964. antranigv has joined

  965. lorddavidiii has left

  966. MRZA has left

  967. b43 has joined

  968. jjrh

    Personally I /hate/ the whatsapp/messenger/discord style where all the chats are grouped together and you can't distinguish between a chatroom and 1-1 and there is no roster and what not, but I know others really like that.

  969. madmalkav has joined

  970. jjrh

    MattJ, you mentioned converse is /one/ of the options, what else are you looking at?

  971. MattJ


  972. MattJ

    (guess the questions I get asked a lot)

  973. jjrh


  974. jjrh

    Any of them other than converse do omemo?

  975. kryptos has left

  976. Amolith has left

  977. b43 has left

  978. lorddavidiii has joined

  979. ross has left

  980. ross has joined

  981. alacer has joined

  982. MattJ

    Movim does, I think JSXC... might? Would have to check. xmpp-web does not.

  983. antranigv has left

  984. Calvin

    Isn’t movim’s omemo server-side?

  985. b43 has joined

  986. MattJ

    Most of Movim is server-side, so it wouldn't surprise me. Note that the Movim server != the XMPP server though (e.g. you could run Movim locally or whatever)

  987. antranigv has joined

  988. alacer has left

  989. Amolith has joined

  990. kryptos has joined

  991. kuba_ has left

  992. madmalkav has left

  993. Ivan A. has left

  994. p55s has left

  995. MRZA has joined

  996. kuba_ has joined

  997. spicybits has left

  998. spicybits has joined

  999. lorddavidiii has left

  1000. Mjolnir Archon has joined

  1001. Maranda has joined

  1002. antranigv has left

  1003. patasca has joined

  1004. kryptos has left

  1005. kryptos has joined

  1006. MRZA has left

  1007. MRZA has joined

  1008. emus has left

  1009. greenkeeper has left

  1010. greenkeeper has joined

  1011. antranigv has joined

  1012. 0ahdaf0 has left

  1013. ' has joined

  1014. sebastian has left

  1015. sebastian has joined

  1016. kuba_ has left

  1017. kuba_ has joined

  1018. mjk has left

  1019. kryptos has left

  1020. antranigv has left

  1021. madmalkav has joined

  1022. millesimus has left

  1023. millesimus has joined

  1024. Sapotaceae has left

  1025. Bjarkan has joined

  1026. Sapotaceae has joined

  1027. antranigv has joined

  1028. creep.im has left

  1029. creep.im has joined

  1030. Sapotaceae has left

  1031. Sapotaceae has joined

  1032. madmalkav has left

  1033. antranigv has left

  1034. madmalkav has joined

  1035. Bjarkan has left

  1036. jl4 has joined

  1037. emus has joined

  1038. Bjarkan has joined

  1039. վարյա has left

  1040. me9 has joined

  1041. antranigv has joined

  1042. Bjarkan has left

  1043. Sapotaceae has left

  1044. Sapotaceae has joined

  1045. Bjarkan has joined

  1046. alacer has joined

  1047. mjk has joined

  1048. perflyst has joined

  1049. SUN has joined

  1050. antranigv has left

  1051. վարյա has joined

  1052. pod has left

  1053. spicybits has left

  1054. jl4 has left

  1055. spicybits has joined

  1056. antranigv has joined

  1057. marc0s has left

  1058. marc0s has joined

  1059. Mjolnir Archon has left

  1060. Maranda has left

  1061. spicybits has left

  1062. spicybits has joined

  1063. antranigv has left

  1064. spicybits has left

  1065. spicybits has joined

  1066. ross has left

  1067. ross has joined

  1068. Maranda has joined

  1069. Mjolnir Archon has joined

  1070. Bjarkan has left

  1071. Bjarkan has joined

  1072. argon3771 has left

  1073. rob has left

  1074. perflyst has left

  1075. Bjarkan has left

  1076. msavoritias has left

  1077. ibikk has left

  1078. Bjarkan has joined

  1079. insanity has left

  1080. Licaon_Kter has left

  1081. sonny has left

  1082. sonny has joined

  1083. վարյա has left

  1084. wael has left

  1085. balabol.im has left

  1086. վարյա has joined

  1087. Bjarkan has left

  1088. greenkeeper has left

  1089. greenkeeper has joined

  1090. antranigv has joined

  1091. insanity has joined

  1092. insanity has left

  1093. alberto has joined

  1094. greenkeeper has left

  1095. greenkeeper has joined

  1096. alberto has left

  1097. karme has left

  1098. marc0s has left

  1099. marc0s has joined

  1100. marc0s has left

  1101. marc0s has joined

  1102. antranigv has left

  1103. antranigv has joined

  1104. Menel has left

  1105. ross has left

  1106. ross has joined

  1107. Jakob has left

  1108. antranigv has left

  1109. alacer has left

  1110. alacer has joined

  1111. Jakob has joined

  1112. kikuchiyo

    Why is there is no support for traffic discrimination, but for other forms of anti-spam?

  1113. greenkeeper has left

  1114. madmalkav has left

  1115. millesimus has left

  1116. greenkeeper has joined

  1117. Sapotaceae has left

  1118. mogad0n has left

  1119. mogad0n has joined

  1120. alacer has left

  1121. alberto has joined

  1122. p55s has joined

  1123. Sapotaceae has joined

  1124. kikuchiyo

    > And rate limits for regular users who only have a single IP, while spammers have unlimited IPs. DCC discrimination against repetitive content patterns avoid this pitfall.

  1125. 0ahdaf0 has joined

  1126. Alex (elaon.de) has left

  1127. Alex (elaon.de) has joined

  1128. marc0s has left

  1129. marc0s has joined

  1130. me9 has left

  1131. insanity has joined

  1132. moparisthebest

    kikuchiyo: I think you are right that there is no reason for the same message to be pasted across multiple mucs, now: 1. How do you share this info in a privacy respecting way? 2. Once spammers catch on, how does it handle slightly changing messages?

  1133. patasca has left

  1134. patasca has joined

  1135. Huxx has left

  1136. SouL has left

  1137. 0ahdaf0 has left

  1138. alacer has joined

  1139. alberto has left

  1140. insanity has left

  1141. Ivan A. has joined

  1142. emus has left

  1143. antranigv has joined