XMPP Service Operators - 2021-12-23


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  187. rozzin Is there actually some sort of rationale for why "channel" is supposed to somehow be inherently "better", other than (I guess) "something popular with some someone's favorite demographic right now uses that term"?
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  241. mike That post is light on justifications. I set my own standards for consistency when I set up chinwag back in 2015 and I don't care what the rest of the world does now, heh. https://bremensaki.com/2015/05/06/conferences-rooms-mucs-what/
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  561. Licaon_Kter rozzin, mike: doesn't matter which term exactly, just effing use one consistently through the ecosystem
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  665. MattJ Terminology rationale: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/rationale/#terminology
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  1648. rozzin MattJ: so, "no". OK.
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  1669. MattJ No?
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  1684. rozzin MattJ: The only non-negative point listed for "Channel" on that page is that it's used by Slack, Discord, and IRC. Despite "group chat" being identified as "Widely understood due to its use in all the most popular messaging apps" and ʿnatural even for people who aren't familiar with those appsʾ. So if that's the answer to my question, then the answer to my question seems to be "no".
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  1687. MattJ All the other choices have negatives
  1688. rozzin The reference to the Google ngrams search for "chat room" is an interesting starting point for s discussion that I wish had happened instead of being treated like the religious interpretation of "a miracle occurs".
  1689. rozzin MattJ: that wasn't my question.
  1690. MattJ We can't get everyone in the world to agree on terminology, I get it (I got that long ago)
  1691. Holger And "being used by popular apps" (esp. popular for the thing in question, public channels) _is_ a rationale, no? You make it sound like common usage would be irrelevant.
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  1693. rozzin Oh, wait—that's not even ngrams, it's *popular searches*.
  1694. MattJ Even within the German-speaking community people are split
  1695. Holger But yes, there's no terminology that would make everyone happy, obviously. Perfect bike shedding topic.
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  1698. MattJ (German as an example of a language with awkward translation of channel)
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  1702. rozzin MattJ: again, not what I said/asked.
  1703. MattJ Okay, then I guess you got your answer
  1704. MattJ Case closed 🙂
  1705. Holger Next customer please.
  1706. jonas’ :bell:
  1707. rozzin Yes. 😁
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  1712. *IM* Holger schrieb: > Next customer please. I'm in the line ...
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  1762. rozzin MattJ: what does "awkward translation of channel" mean BTW?
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  1767. Holger /me invites *IM* to the business support Kanal.
  1768. MattJ The translation of channel into some languages is the word for "canal" (i.e. the waterway)
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  1770. MattJ I'm not a speaker of those languages, so I can't make a judgement, but I personally don't think it is very different to the situation in English
  1771. rozzin I think that's... not how translation works....
  1772. MattJ It's not like many average people would associate "channel" with a group chat, and a channel can also mean a waterway in English
  1773. Holger Yeah, in German it's both a translation of "canal" _and_ of "channel". Though more like the channel in "television channel", i.e. clear seperation of sender and recipients.
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  1775. rozzin I was about to say: Do you guys not have television in Germany? 😁
  1776. Holger But whether or not "channel" is a sane terminology seems somewhat unrelated to the proper translation, no?
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  1778. Holger So all it needs is translation working groups for modernxmpp terms!
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  1782. MattJ It's my feeling that the issue is actually not very related to translation issues, indeed
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  1787. MattJ But nobody can agree on anything, and yet we have to make progress
  1788. rozzin Well, there is an idea: find appropriate native words for "chatroom" in many languages other than English, and then translate *to* English....
  1789. Holger Slack translates "channel" to "channel" so their translation guys do believe "Kanal" is worse 🙂
  1790. rozzin Just wait until clients implement XEP-0033....
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  1801. Ellenor Bjornsd. > Holger wrote: > Slack translates "channel" to "channel" so their translation guys do believe "Kanal" is worse 🙂 IRC client devs historically use Kanal/canal
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  1807. rozzin Ellenor Bjornsd.: is that where the split comes from? "Slack users vs. IRC users"?
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  1812. rozzin As a service operator, XEP-0033 seems quite attractive. As a user, it fills me with dread....
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  1854. Ellenor Bjornsd. dunno
  1855. Ellenor Bjornsd. what's xep 33?
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  1859. abdullahi What is the way to translate the room language to another language for old phones
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  2165. *IM* Please discuss terms in native language. Everything else is wasted time.
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  2175. *IM* French in french chat rooms, chinese in chinese rooms ... spanisch in ... greek in ...
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  2680. rozzin Ellenor Bjornsd., XEP-0033 is "Extended Stanza Addressing": > This specification defines an XMPP protocol extension that enables entities to include RFC822-style address headers within XMPP stanzas in order to specify multiple recipients or sub-addresses.
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  2984. Menel > Slack translates "channel" to "channel" so their translation guys do believe "Kanal" is worse 🙂 Am German and approve this message.. Some things are best left untranslated 😀
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  3036. rozzin I guess I assumed that Slack got "channel" from IRC since that seemed to be their initial target market, and IRC got that term from CB / HAM / other radio cultures. And presumably there are terms consistently used by those radio cultures in other languages (whether or not they're cognates of "channel"), but Slack being American I'd kind of expect them to just punt on translation whenever/wherever possible....
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  3470. etaurus > Am German and approve this message.. Some things are best left untranslated 😀 +1
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