XMPP Service Operators - 2021-12-23

  1. rozzin

    Is there actually some sort of rationale for why "channel" is supposed to somehow be inherently "better", other than (I guess) "something popular with some someone's favorite demographic right now uses that term"?

  2. mike

    That post is light on justifications. I set my own standards for consistency when I set up chinwag back in 2015 and I don't care what the rest of the world does now, heh. https://bremensaki.com/2015/05/06/conferences-rooms-mucs-what/

  3. Licaon_Kter

    rozzin, mike: doesn't matter which term exactly, just effing use one consistently through the ecosystem

  4. MattJ

    Terminology rationale: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/rationale/#terminology

  5. rozzin

    MattJ: so, "no". OK.

  6. MattJ


  7. rozzin

    MattJ: The only non-negative point listed for "Channel" on that page is that it's used by Slack, Discord, and IRC. Despite "group chat" being identified as "Widely understood due to its use in all the most popular messaging apps" and ʿnatural even for people who aren't familiar with those appsʾ. So if that's the answer to my question, then the answer to my question seems to be "no".

  8. MattJ

    All the other choices have negatives

  9. rozzin

    The reference to the Google ngrams search for "chat room" is an interesting starting point for s discussion that I wish had happened instead of being treated like the religious interpretation of "a miracle occurs".

  10. rozzin

    MattJ: that wasn't my question.

  11. MattJ

    We can't get everyone in the world to agree on terminology, I get it (I got that long ago)

  12. Holger

    And "being used by popular apps" (esp. popular for the thing in question, public channels) _is_ a rationale, no? You make it sound like common usage would be irrelevant.

  13. rozzin

    Oh, wait—that's not even ngrams, it's *popular searches*.

  14. MattJ

    Even within the German-speaking community people are split

  15. Holger

    But yes, there's no terminology that would make everyone happy, obviously. Perfect bike shedding topic.

  16. MattJ

    (German as an example of a language with awkward translation of channel)

  17. rozzin

    MattJ: again, not what I said/asked.

  18. MattJ

    Okay, then I guess you got your answer

  19. MattJ

    Case closed 🙂

  20. Holger

    Next customer please.

  21. jonas’


  22. rozzin

    Yes. 😁

  23. *IM*

    Holger schrieb: > Next customer please. I'm in the line ...

  24. rozzin

    MattJ: what does "awkward translation of channel" mean BTW?

  25. Holger

    /me invites *IM* to the business support Kanal.

  26. MattJ

    The translation of channel into some languages is the word for "canal" (i.e. the waterway)

  27. MattJ

    I'm not a speaker of those languages, so I can't make a judgement, but I personally don't think it is very different to the situation in English

  28. rozzin

    I think that's... not how translation works....

  29. MattJ

    It's not like many average people would associate "channel" with a group chat, and a channel can also mean a waterway in English

  30. Holger

    Yeah, in German it's both a translation of "canal" _and_ of "channel". Though more like the channel in "television channel", i.e. clear seperation of sender and recipients.

  31. rozzin

    I was about to say: Do you guys not have television in Germany? 😁

  32. Holger

    But whether or not "channel" is a sane terminology seems somewhat unrelated to the proper translation, no?

  33. Holger

    So all it needs is translation working groups for modernxmpp terms!

  34. MattJ

    It's my feeling that the issue is actually not very related to translation issues, indeed

  35. MattJ

    But nobody can agree on anything, and yet we have to make progress

  36. rozzin

    Well, there is an idea: find appropriate native words for "chatroom" in many languages other than English, and then translate *to* English....

  37. Holger

    Slack translates "channel" to "channel" so their translation guys do believe "Kanal" is worse 🙂

  38. rozzin

    Just wait until clients implement XEP-0033....

  39. Ellenor Bjornsd.

    > Holger wrote: > Slack translates "channel" to "channel" so their translation guys do believe "Kanal" is worse 🙂 IRC client devs historically use Kanal/canal

  40. rozzin

    Ellenor Bjornsd.: is that where the split comes from? "Slack users vs. IRC users"?

  41. rozzin

    As a service operator, XEP-0033 seems quite attractive. As a user, it fills me with dread....

  42. Ellenor Bjornsd.


  43. Ellenor Bjornsd.

    what's xep 33?

  44. abdullahi

    What is the way to translate the room language to another language for old phones

  45. *IM*

    Please discuss terms in native language. Everything else is wasted time.

  46. *IM*

    French in french chat rooms, chinese in chinese rooms ... spanisch in ... greek in ...

  47. rozzin

    Ellenor Bjornsd., XEP-0033 is "Extended Stanza Addressing": > This specification defines an XMPP protocol extension that enables entities to include RFC822-style address headers within XMPP stanzas in order to specify multiple recipients or sub-addresses.

  48. Menel

    > Slack translates "channel" to "channel" so their translation guys do believe "Kanal" is worse 🙂 Am German and approve this message.. Some things are best left untranslated 😀

  49. rozzin

    I guess I assumed that Slack got "channel" from IRC since that seemed to be their initial target market, and IRC got that term from CB / HAM / other radio cultures. And presumably there are terms consistently used by those radio cultures in other languages (whether or not they're cognates of "channel"), but Slack being American I'd kind of expect them to just punt on translation whenever/wherever possible....

  50. etaurus

    > Am German and approve this message.. Some things are best left untranslated 😀 +1