XMPP Service Operators - 2022-04-11

gooya, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0012.html ?

> gooya, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0012.html ? MattJ: This one deals with last activity. But what I mean is something like Whatsapp's 'last seen'. An XEP that shows when someone has last opened the client to read messages or when he has sent one.

No, I'm not aware of any servers that track anything like that as standard

(and I'm fine with that!)

Do you mean read markers but for servers ?

No, it would basically be XEP-0012, but that's messed up these days since some clients stay connected semi-permanently

> No, it would basically be XEP-0012, but that's messed up these days since some clients stay connected semi-permanently Yeah I know but something that sould show last seen would probably a feature that a lot of people would enjoy.

> (and I'm fine with that!) It would be even better if the client has an option to disable last seen for the users that don't like this feature. Just like the 'confirm read messages'.

I like that feature !!

> I like that feature !! Great! If no one is aware of an existing XEP supporting this, maybe I can submit an idea request?

I'm not convinced that it isn't XEP-0012

XEP-0319 seems to be it to me.

Ha

We just removed support for it in poezio. ^^

It is a privacy issue more than anything.

> We just removed support for it in poezio. ^^ > It is a privacy issue more than anything. Not if both the server config allows to disable it as well as the client.

> XEP-0319 seems to be it to me. This does seem to be it

gooya: Whatsapp's "last seen" is measuring what exactly?

gooya: "last time the user's display was on", "last time the user has the app focused (last time the user saw the app?)", "last time the user was seen online", "last time you saw the user online", or what?

I believe it's the second one, rozzin

Indeed the second

Tho I'm not too sure what the difference between the second and third point is

We also covered a few interesting points in the ejabberd MUC

Well, AFAICT one of them is XEP-0319 and the other is XEP-0012.

Not really, the difference between them is AIUI that 0012 is a query/response protocol where you ask one client “for how long has your user been away?” and it might reply, while 0319 is a client advertising “my user has been away since <date>” and the contacts of this user can then use this information as they see fit.

gooya: I actually don't understand how the two can be confused. If you take the "'last time" part away so that they're framed as "current status" ("does the user have the app focused right now" vs. "is the user online and able to receive messages right now"), does it become obvious how they're different? ✏

Link Mauve: my reading is that 0012 allows you to determine "how long has the user been *offline*" for users who are not always online, without you yourself needing to be online at all times to be able keep track of when *you saw them go offline*.

rozzin, oh right I missed that part, you don’t query your contact’s client but their account.

Like, someone I know has been offline for 6 months. If I want to get a message to him, I'm going to call him via telephone or find some other way, because at this point it looks unlikely that he's ever going to pop online to receive message.

Right.

Link Mauve: I thought maybe people had just started to forget that it was even possible for someone to go "offline" 😆

Heh. :)

This hasn’t happened to me in almost a decade. :)

And when I was, my server was too. ^^'

XEP-0012 TBH seems a lot more useful / a lot less creepy than XEP-0319 to me...

0319 is you(r client) deciding you want to publish when you last interacted with it to all of your contacts.

... except maybe on systems like iPhones where it's hard to maintain a real "online vs. offline" status?

Some clients have had something like that built-in with auto-away, and no one bat an eye back then. ^^'

Link Mauve: yeah, I was just thinking auto-away also sounds like a somewhat less-creepy way to do the same sort of thing (since your own presence was usually made obvious in UIs).

rozzin, just make it obvious in UIs then?

There is nothing inherently creepy about any of that.

You could even render 0319 as auto-away (without the status mess that came with it) in your UI.

Well, what's the difference between XEP-319 and auto-presence with XEP-0012 then?

rozzin, 0012 is polling (“are you away?” “are you away?” “are you away?”) while 0319 is you advertising it.

Right, but I mean is that it? Just the implementation details, not any user-level semantic differences?

Yeah.

And 0012 queries can go to your account, while 0319 doesn’t require server support.