XMPP Service Operators - 2022-04-14

So friends, I was wondering: if we have to use a TURN server to transverse a NAT, is the connection still true p2p (in the case of video calling for example)?

No, the stream is relayed via the server.

At that point you're getting dangerously close to "this connection has to go through routers on the internet, traceroute shows like 10 of them, is this really p2p?"

(jokes aside, I supose you could argue that's different because it's at a different layer, but the point is that 'true p2p' is a bit vague and it may be better to decide exactly what you need and why)

Sam: having a relay at that layer is broadly acknowledged as "not p2p", I don't see where one would be confused

I don't think that's true. I would definitely still call that p2p anyways, which is why I suggested the term is vague.

Yeah that is fair, I think

Its a fuzzy term

Let me quote myself > Briar has all the Tor network servers > p2p is a short for _"at least 2 dozen servers needed"_ > Jami, the glory of P2P, aka no server needed. > Settings: > * bootstrap server > * DHT proxy server > * STUN server > * TURN server ಠ_ಠ

Lemme try: a p2p protocol rides purely on top of existing infrastructure, not using protocol-specific servers. In this way, Briar is purely p2p, as it doesn't require Briar servers, it rides on top of existing, generic, network. Can't say that about Jami. Calls over xmpp techmically _could_ rely on existing generic TURN servers (like google's), but don't in practice, so not really p2p by the above definition.

mjk: that's a sham then, because I can name anything as "existing infra", Tor, Loki, TURN, AWS, Azure, Snowflake, etc it's all infra all the way down. Full of other peoples servers...but I'm p2p bro

Hmm, let's refine 'existing' to 'existing public' infra :) Internet passes, Tor passes, AWS doesn't

If all public TURN servers belong to google, it's a privacy nightmare, but still p2p I guess? Hmmm.

Refine to 'existing, public, not singly-owned infra'? :D

DHT, bittorrent, blockchain, yeah... everything is p2p, except xmpp Everything has no metadata, except xmpp. We heard all the fud :))

If you run an xmpp onion server in your pocket, you're p2p too!

Prosody on the phone \o/ ✏

There's that person that was doing ejabberd on the phone. We never heard back from them... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Coincidence? I think not.,,

They got to him

I have Prosody running on my phone, on my laptop, on my video game consoles…

mjk, why does it matter that it runs on your phone, instead of on your server?

This is the worst definition of p2p I’ve heard in a while. ^^'

Link Mauve: shhh, we don't say 'server' in p2p, we say 'node'!

If you completely automate dns & certificate things, you won't need onions as well

Automating dns registration is the hardest, if only because it usually needs payment

OpenNIC is centralization again. Cjdns?

Gnunet or yggdrasil

And there are probably more :D