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  765. ij FYI: hookipa.net/xmpp.social will shut down for maintenance (relocation to a new server)
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  985. аноним Hello
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  992. Menel Hi
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  1057. smooth_operator hello. basic xmpp question:
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  1060. smooth_operator if a user joins a muc on a brand new server, and then leaves the muc, does the s2s connection stay open?
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  1066. Link Mauve smooth_operator, it depends™.
  1067. Link Mauve Some servers (Ejabberd for instance) like to close s2s connections when no stanza has been exchanged in some time, some other (Prosody for instance) don’t.
  1068. Link Mauve The trade-offs are that it takes a few seconds to open a connection, so the next message you send might get delayed a bit if the connection got closed.
  1069. smooth_operator makes sense. so in the case of prosody, surely there is an eventual timeout?
  1070. Link Mauve On the other hand, it takes a few KiB of memory to have an open connection, so for resource reasons it might be preferable to close the connections on servers starved for RAM.
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  1072. Link Mauve Not that I know of, the s2s connection gets closed only when the other end closes it, or when the server gets restarted.
  1073. smooth_operator hmmm
  1074. Menel Or ip change, TCP time out
  1075. Link Mauve I have never found this problematic, but if you have very little RAM and a lot of idle s2s you might want to change that.
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  1078. smooth_operator so the scenario i have is, if a user on my muc joins all these random mucs just to browse, but then leaves them all, all of those connections stay open indefinitely
  1079. Link Mauve There is mod_s2s_idle_timeout in prosody-modules to do that.
  1080. smooth_operator oh cool, perfect
  1081. Link Mauve smooth_operator, is that an issue though?
  1082. Link Mauve As I said, it only takes a few KiB of memory to keep a TCP + TLS connection open.
  1083. smooth_operator not really, im just micromanaging since im new to xmpp
  1084. Link Mauve And as Menel said, you will get timeouts for other reasons anyway.
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  1086. Link Mauve smooth_operator, note that it has nothing to do with MUC, the s2s doesn’t care what gets transmitted over it.
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  1089. smooth_operator yeah that makes sense
  1090. Link Mauve smooth_operator, and be aware of the time it takes to reestablish a connection, especially if you have a weak CPU, especially if the other end uses a large certificate (4096 bits RSA for instance).
  1091. Menel If you are less new, in time, you'll notice the defaults are there for a reason and most micromanagement not useful.
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  1093. Link Mauve Yup. ^^
  1094. smooth_operator yeah i bet. i just like knowing what traffic my server is doing, is all
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  1097. Link Mauve By definition, an idle connection will have almost no traffic.
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  1108. smooth_operator yeah im not concerned about amount of traffic. just the various connections my server holds open and if they are solicited or not
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  1111. Link Mauve All connections are solicited. :D
  1112. Link Mauve No server goes “nothing asked me to, but I’ll open a connection anyway!” :D
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  1116. smooth_operator lol i mean like all the internet scanners scanning for 5269, i wanna know if that connection is because a user is doing something with the server or not, i guess
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  1119. Link Mauve Those probably close it right after they’ve done their scanning.
  1120. Link Mauve It would be too expensive on their end not to.
  1121. smooth_operator well that's only stage 1 :)
  1122. smooth_operator stage 2 is fingerprinting
  1123. smooth_operator stage 3 is hacking
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  1125. Link Mauve I’ve only ever seen DoS over unauthenticated streams, never hacking.
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  1127. Link Mauve Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but I am not aware of any case in the past fifteen years I’ve been following XMPP stuff.
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  1129. smooth_operator okay, so another xmpp noob question: is there actually authentication over s2s aside from cert validation?
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  1131. Link Mauve If the certificate is valid, that is authentication.
  1132. Link Mauve Presenting a valid certificate for a domain is kind of a proof that you do own said domain.
  1133. Link Mauve There are other ways to prove it, but that’s the current most accepted one.
  1134. smooth_operator yeah that's what i was thinking. all they need is a domain and cert which isn't hard to get
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  1138. smooth_operator so maybe a more useful question is, are there any good guides for hardening our servers?
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  1140. smooth_operator or at least best practices
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  1142. Link Mauve What do you want to harden it against?
  1143. Link Mauve As Menel said earlier, “in time, you'll notice the defaults are there for a reason”. :)
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  1145. smooth_operator minimizing attack surface
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  1147. Menel smooth_operator: best practice is use the software.. I'm not aware of any xmpp "hack" beside DOS. The attach surface is with the default very small as far as I see. There are endless servers out there.. But has any been hacked via xmpp?
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  1149. Menel Ever?
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  1151. Link Mauve Probably, don’t load random community modules that haven’t been vetted by the devs of your server or reviewed by you, would be the best answer I could give you.
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  1157. smooth_operator Menel: i don't know of xmpp server hacking either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. and if it's normal for the server to hold open tons of idle connections, how would operators know those aren't malicious or not
  1158. smooth_operator and i'm just being theoretical here. anytime i expose something to the internet i just like knowing what i'm exposing
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  1160. smooth_operator so things like bosh, websocket, proxy65: i have no idea what those are for so i just disable them
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  1181. Licaon_Kter smooth_operator: > so things like bosh, websocket, proxy65: i have no idea what those are for so i just disable them you can read...
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  1183. Licaon_Kter Web client old standard, new standard, file transfer helper, etc
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  1187. smooth_operator well yeah i can look them all up and spend hours reading xeps, but the argument was about not messing with defaults. now that i think about it, it's impossible for me to _not_ mess with defaults lol. character flaw. so never mind my rambling :)
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  1190. Menel Well, if you are like that you'll _have_ to read about it or never sleep well 😀
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  1194. Menel I just don't think its a big difference if your s2s closes connections or not. If the open connection is used by a malicious actor.. They will just hold it open. And a timeout will not help with security
  1195. Menel As you already discoverd a server will happily listen to a valid connection
  1196. smooth_operator yeah, you're right
  1197. Licaon_Kter smooth_operator: either accept defaults or read, and you'll read anyway when stuff is not working lol
  1198. smooth_operator yeah. i'm just looking for the easy button first ;)
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  1201. Licaon_Kter Make default working, then read and prune what's not wanted.
  1202. Licaon_Kter No need for s2s or proxy65 at start, no one would use them when you start, since no one knows your server yet.
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  1206. Menel Before reading xeps, I would start with the prosody doc from the top, and then all the modules you use.. Xeps are a bit abstract..
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