XMPP Service Operators

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jabber.de is down because of DDOS apparently?
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Eatxmpp?
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MattJ 12:05:20
Licaon_Kter, source?
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MattJ: an user, will dig
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Ingolf 17:39:57
Does anyone here know if any other servers were attacked as well?
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Menel 19:19:25
https://social.tchncs.de/@trashserver/108911537786777778 Is there some mod_firewall equivalent for ejabberd or something? I don't know what magic yax.im or jabber.fr use...
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Ingolf 19:23:42
Thank you, Menel
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Licaon_Kter 19:29:08
Menel: yax (prosody) uses https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/05/12/new-anti-spam-measures/
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Licaon_Kter 19:29:21
Menel: so this is a coordinated spam campaign?
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Holger 19:48:47
Menel: There's no mod_firewall equivalent, no. There's other means but I avoid discussing details in public.
Zash 19:49:17
What about account invites?
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Licaon_Kter 19:49:50
_"Who's got a riseup invite you guys?"_ thing?
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Holger 19:50:42
Zash: Clearly a good solution for small servers, not sure about larger ones like Trashserver? Maybe.
Holger 19:52:12
ejabberd doesn't have that yet but I'd be interested myself for domain hosting specifically.
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Zash 19:54:02
I would like to believe it could work for a public server too, but probably not in every situation.
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diane 20:54:28
root, thanks for the links to the xmpp monitoring tools
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MattJ 21:33:32
The invite-only model has worked for many public (non-XMPP) services
Holger 21:35:17
Isn't it hard to exclude spammers without excluding others?
MattJ 21:35:18
Also, trashserver until today was being recommended by jmp.chat to their new customers. If ejabberd had similar functionality to Prosody in this area, they would have been able to continue with that by simply generating invites. For now they've had to switch to recommending a different server.
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MattJ 21:35:56
For a communication platform it's much more likely that you are joining because someone you know is already using it
Holger 21:35:57
I'm in no way arguing against offering invites of course 🙂
bkil 21:36:17
Note that Facebook also started out as invite-only until they could hire a moderation team. We also welcome you in the mod-ideas@conference.movim.eu MUC if you have any concrete experience or idea for future tricks to deal with scammers.
MattJ 21:36:37
and I'm not saying it should be impossible to join any other way, but I don't think it's preferable to see services close up entirely due to spammers
MattJ 21:36:54
Invites are a very workable middle-ground
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diane 21:37:32
Well if you have a reasonably defined set of seed users.
bkil 21:37:36
What do you think about lobsters/lobste.rs? https://lobste.rs/about#invitations
Holger 21:37:56
> For a communication platform it's much more likely that you are joining because someone you know is already using it Ok yeah I get the idea under the assumption that everyone offers it. Not an option for the university server I'm using, so I can't onboard my contacts that way. But probably not the common case yes.
MattJ 21:37:56
bkil, yes, it's an example of a service where it's used and relied upon
bkil 21:38:07
You are supposed to find a friend in the user/invite tree and ask for an invite there. Incidentally, the invite tree also provides transparency against abuse..
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MattJ 21:38:16
Holger, so the university server is public-registration?
Holger 21:38:26
No, it's closed.
bkil 21:38:40
However, registered users need to be non-anonymous so their friends could identify them by name, so it's a trade-off towards privacy.
MattJ 21:38:43
Okay, so you're saying you'd want to onboard people to XMPP but on a different server
Holger 21:38:50
Yes.
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Holger 21:39:46
I mean I'm not making this up this *is* my case, and I onboarded many private contacts. But yes *I* would manage to create invites nevertheless 🙂
MattJ 21:39:56
I think that's a less common case, but not uncommon (I mean, Snikket has a similar situation). But it still doesn't mean you can't give out invites to public services based on whatever criteria.
MattJ 21:41:43
When I first gave the talk at FOSDEM (pre-Snikket) about my ideas around invite registration, my plan at the time was to build a registration gateway, e.g. joinjabber.org. It would implement whatever anti-spammer stuff was necessary, but still allow people to sign up to various public servers.
MattJ 21:42:04
And there's no need to limit it to a single such portal, e.g. you could have them for different languages or communities
MattJ 21:42:37
But also since that time I increasingly lost faith in large volunteer-run public services as a sustainable model anyway
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MattJ 21:45:02
Anyway, it seems clear to me that there are services that would be good candidates for invite-only registration that are just closing registration entirely instead
MattJ 21:45:35
So I remain a firm believer that invite-based registration would result in a more open network overall, rather than a more closed one
Holger 21:45:54
~~If this is meant to be an anti-spam measure, is the idea to end up with non-invite-based somehow being identifiable as a spam filter criteria?~~ ✎
Holger 21:46:12
If this is meant to be an anti-spam measure, is the idea to end up with non-invite-based services somehow being identifiable as a spam filter criteria? ✏
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Holger 21:47:01
I mean if you don't invite the spammer the obvious next step is simply that the spammer will move to another server. To his own if all else fails. And then?
MattJ 21:47:01
I don't think it even has to be used as a direct criteria. The fact is that >99.9% of spam is coming from servers with public IBR
MattJ 21:47:26
And those servers are already being added to Lists
Holger 21:47:26
100% is coming from XMPP servers.
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MattJ 21:47:35
A subset of XMPP servers
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Holger 21:47:42
🙂
Holger 21:48:30
Yes but the conclusion that spammers will go away if IBR goes away doesn't sound plausible to me.
Holger 21:48:41
They just need to adjust their scripts no?
MattJ 21:48:48
So I don't see a need to change how servers end up on spam lists. Whatever mechanisms they implement (or don't) to tackle spam, the results show themselves.
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MattJ 21:49:20
What would they change their scripts to do?
MattJ 21:49:31
and I've never claimed that spam will just go away
Holger 21:49:47
As I said above. If all else fails the script will have to do s2s.
MattJ 21:50:42
I missed that implication. Whether servers use public or invite-only IBR doesn't change whether that tactic would work on today's network.
Holger 21:50:42
I understood the "99% is coming from IBR" to imply that "ditching IBR will reduce spam".
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emus 21:51:11
Would there be a way to for example verify via mail?
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emus 21:51:34
asking for email to regiater (and password reset 🙂)
Holger 21:51:35
~~Asking for b$$$ helps!~~ ✎
Holger 21:51:40
Asking for $$$ helps! ✏
emus 21:51:47
Holger: Sure 😄
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MattJ 21:52:08
There is the network perspective, and the operator perspective. I've mostly talked about the operator perspective, but of course they are linked. I would like it if operators didn't have to close up entirely because they can't deal with the spam registrations on their server.
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MattJ 21:52:32
From the network perspective, we need to be able to handle s2s spam regardless of anything else
MattJ 21:52:56
If everyone dropped public IBR, sure, it would make spammers more likely to go that route
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Holger 21:54:44
> I would like it if operators didn't have to close up entirely because they can't deal with the spam registrations on their server. I agree of course (and already suggested ideas to Thomas, let's see).
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Zash 22:00:36
You could have a hybrid approach, where e.g. the website publishes single use invites at some rate that can be bypassed by getting an invite from an existing user.
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moparisthebest 22:06:29
What if we build s2s spamming tools in the hopes spammers use them instead of ruining public servers
Holger 22:06:55
Hah.
Zash 22:06:57
Don't give them ideas
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moparisthebest 22:07:57
Think of what you could do with a wildcard a record pointed at your IP
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bkil 22:28:55
Well, the income could be used to fund XMPP related development. 🤷 Banning spammers does not pay well.
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