XMPP Service Operators - 2022-09-17


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  554. Martin Where is this curated server list hosted that is used by e.g. kaidan?
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  562. millesimus https://providers.xmpp.net This one, Martin?
  563. Martin millesimus: thx
  564. Menel Nah. That one lists a lot of very good servers under not recommended.
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  566. millesimus I agree.
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  569. Martin Not sure if it makes sense to recommend servers that are listed on the jabberspam blacklist. Users picking those might be disappointed if they can't talk to their friends on other servers.
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  571. Menel That's a very very good point 😄
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  573. root Martin: seems providers.xmpp.net need to add some new criteria to their ranking list? If you are on the soam list, automatic F.
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  578. Martin Would make sense but I don't know what the operators of this list think about it.
  579. Menel Certainly more relevant then, they not listing the upload size
  580. Martin emus: ^
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  583. Martin emus: melvo: ^
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  587. Maranda The impressum requires also info about support contact, hosting type (if applicable), data safety / retention, DR/RT policies (disaster recovery / recovery time) etc.
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  590. Maranda So mostly those services do not provide the relevant infos on the service site?
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  595. emus Martin: What exactly? and Which server is a spammer we list?
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  597. Martin https://github.com/JabberSPAM/blacklist/blob/master/blacklist.txt#L2
  598. Martin I think listing servers (which is sort of recommending) which might very limited in federation as they appear on the blocklist doesn't make much sense.
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  603. Maranda Martin it's listed as D...
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  605. Maranda "Providers in this category cannot or should not be used for registration."
  606. Martin Exactly, I think it should not be listed at all. In D it is listed on the same level as conversations.im…
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  614. emus The key statement is automated registration. We can only recommend servers if such information is available as a reference (anything else is random). If we approach a fire and forget recommendation principle with this attempt to recommend servers which are suitable for unaware and non-tech-savvy users we need data to base evaluation on and second some level of what expectation a first XMPP experience should look like (compliance, support, and yes, upload sizes etc). But all this is under discussion and still development
  615. emus Last but not least, the raw list can be applied and own filters. However, we don't recommend this.
  616. melvo > Certainly more relevant then, they not listing the upload size Please have a look at a provider's detail page. You will find the limits there.
  617. emus There should rather be a spammer criteria, than not listing I believe
  618. melvo As emus said, all your suggestions are already on their way.
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  625. melvo Here is the corresponding issue: https://invent.kde.org/melvo/xmpp-providers/-/issues/32
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  649. Martin I don't see anything regarding spam servers there.
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  669. Holger > There should rather be a spammer criteria, than not listing I believe How does listing spam scars help users who check your list to find a server?
  670. Holger > There should rather be a spammer criteria, than not listing I believe How does listing spam servers help users who check your list to find a server?
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  673. emus Holger: It exposes them as *not* to register at least
  674. emus Holger: It exposes servers as *not* to register at least
  675. Holger Yes but how does that help?
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  679. Holger Why not just list those servers you deem suitable for registration?
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  698. Martin > Why not just list those servers you deem suitable for registration? That's my point. Spam servers should simply not get listed.
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  712. emus Well, we always want to be transparent about what we do. Why not expose them as spammers?
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  744. Holger emus: Why not list domains that don't offer XMPP? Seems unrelated to the goal of suggesting servers to newcomers.
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  755. Holger > Well, we always want to be transparent about what we do. Maybe allow for explicitly querying your data for a specific server? I.e. similar to https://compliance.conversations.im – list suggestions and offer a domain input field?
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  776. emus Holger: The last thing I don't fully understand
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  778. emus > Holger: > 2022-09-17 05:35 (GMT+02:00) > emus: Why not list domains that don't offer XMPP? Seems unrelated to the goal of suggesting servers to newcomers. We experienced so far that the transparency usually results into improvement of server setups (also with respect to users). So, I believe this is a good thing.
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  781. Holger Still the same topic: Your goal is listing suggestions. Why also list servers you _don't_ suggest? If the goal here is transparency, just add some domain input field that allows admins to check why their server isn't listed?
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  823. Holger > We experienced so far that the transparency usually results into improvement of server setups (also with respect to users). So, I believe this is a good thing. Yes I see totally see how it makes sense to allow motivated admins to check how to get listed. But that could be done without cluttering the UI for end users, no?
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  866. MattJ Yeah. I personally think the best way is not to remove them, but bury them a bit more than they are now.
  867. MattJ But then it's also going to bury various category D servers that are totally fine by most people's criteria 🙂
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  869. Martin I'd prefer to not show servers that appear on the jabberspam list at all. If you *really*, *really* want to show all servers then making appearance on the jabberspam list showing up under "F" and not on par with servers like conversations.im is still better than the current state.
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  871. Martin Right now it is only creep.im (which is not critical, as nowadays the admin is reachable in this MUC and it could get delisted if the admin would go through the process) but what if other really bad spam servers get added to the list?
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  873. MattJ Martin: I really don't see the problem if the site flags it
  874. MattJ If you think it's a site that only lists recommended servers, that's incorrect and maybe the site needs clarification
  875. MattJ It's a directory of all public XMPP servers
  876. ernst.on.tour They should be shown, otherwise it could be interpreted as "oh, they have miss to test it" and not as "be a bad one"
  877. Martin I see this list as a list of recommended servers and servers flagged as "bad, do not use" should not appear at all. Why would you add something to the list of suggestions only to flag it as "not suggested"?
  878. MattJ That's why I said they shouldn't be removed, but definitely buried so people can't accidentally think they are recommended
  879. MattJ Martin: for reference purposes
  880. Martin Ok, I see your point.
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  883. Martin But then it should have a "F" category.
  884. MattJ Like compliance.conversations.im lets you see non-compliant servers (but does not recommend them on the front page)
  885. MattJ 'D' is 'F'
  886. Martin Right now a server appearing on the jabberspam list is on the same level as conversations.im. For me that's questionable, at least.
  887. ernst.on.tour Feel free to mark them as "evil" or "claoke" 😉
  888. MattJ I agree that it should probably be more clearly separated
  889. MattJ conversations.im being in the same category as worse servers is a separate problem
  890. MattJ With different solutions
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  893. Martin Yeah, missing max http-upload size and server being known for spam should have a different weight. .)
  894. Martin Yeah, missing max http-upload size and server being known for spam should have a different weight. :)
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  897. MattJ So 3 actions for the project: 1) add a "is known spam server" property, 2) show category D servers less prominently and make it more clear they are NOT recommended, 3) fix the category of conversations.im (and probably others)
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  900. Martin ernst.on.tour: claoke? Do you mean kloake? I would never suggest something like this. That's very disrespectful.
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  902. Martin Number 2) is not a problem as it already red and states "Providers in this category cannot or should not be used for registration."
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  904. Martin My issue was just that spam servers are listed on the same level as conversations.im while I rather have them not listed. But I can also understand your point that not listing them might lead people to the conclusion it might be a good server that has just not been evaluated yet.
  905. MattJ I still think they shouldn't necessarily be on the front pagr
  906. MattJ I still think they shouldn't necessarily be on the front page
  907. MattJ They should be discoverable, but they are not relevant to 90% of people who are looking for a server to use
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  909. MattJ For people interested in the properties of a specific server or for a full directory of services, sure. But that need not be on the front page.
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  915. melvo As MattJ alresdy said, the website is for all providers, not only suggested ones. If all clients integrate XMPP Providers (by using at least catehory C providers), no user will ever need to visit that website and see providers in category D. That is the goal instead of havin yet another website listing providers for users. conversations.im will get to A as soon as we are finished with the automation work.
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  919. melvo As MattJ already said, the website is for all providers, not only suggested ones. If all clients integrate XMPP Providers (by using at least catehory C providers), no user will ever need to visit that website and see providers in category D. That is the goal instead of havin yet another website listing providers for users. conversations.im will get to A as soon as we are finished with the automation work.
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  921. melvo As MattJ already said, the website is for all providers, not only suggested ones. If all clients integrate XMPP Providers (by using at least catehory C providers), no user will ever need to visit that website and see providers in category D. That is the goal instead of having yet another website listing providers for users. conversations.im will get to A as soon as we are finished with the automation work.
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  926. melvo The main target of the website are the providers theirselves to see how they can improve their category and client developers to see what XMPP Providers is about.
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  932. melvo We will introduce a property for spam servers as well once we have more automation.
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  935. Martin Good. :)
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  937. Trung > For people interested in the properties of a specific server or for a full directory of services, sure. But that need not be on the front page. I agree with MattJ ^
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  965. MattJ melvo: what remains to be done for the automation work?
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  969. Holger > So 3 actions for the project: 1) add a "is known spam server" property, 2) show category D servers less prominently and make it more clear they are NOT recommended, 3) fix the category of conversations.im (and probably others) conversations.im and those others are classified as 'D' based on missing data for classification. Which seems like a contradiction in itself to me.
  970. melvo MattJ: The points mentioned in https://invent.kde.org/melvo/xmpp-providers/-/issues/32 and some others not yet added to it.
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  972. Holger > The main target of the website are the providers theirselves to see how they can improve their category What's the advantage of publishing a *list* for this purpose, as opposed to an input field that allows admins to query the data/classification of their server?
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  976. Zash Public shaming is a powerful motivator
  977. Zash or, chasing those green checkboxes
  978. Holger Zash: Yes I'm assuming that's the motivation indeed.
  979. Zash I am of course assuminguessing too
  980. Holger I think (1) that's not cool and (2) it doesn't help with the intended purpose.
  981. Holger (2) because people get the impression that the list yields wierd results.
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  983. MattJ Holger [18:45]: > > conversations.im and those others are classified as 'D' based on missing data for classification. Which seems like a contradiction in itself to me. This seems like a good argument for a separate "incomplete" category
  984. Holger And I'd think just _not_ listing servers would give interested admins enough incentive just fine.
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  989. Holger > If you think it's a site that only lists recommended servers, that's incorrect and maybe the site needs clarification > It's a directory of all public XMPP servers So it's a directory of *all* federating XMPP servers, classified by criteria relevant to one specific use case (registering for a server that works well with mobile IM clients)?
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  994. Zash I'm under the impression that it's partly a list of public servers along with details like file upload limits etc, and partly a opinionated grouping of those, that is optional to use.
  995. Zash with the intent of being embedded in clients for use in "create account" dialogs
  996. Zash So clients could use the existing ranking, or invent their own based on the available data.
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  998. Holger Yes that part is cool 🙂
  999. Zash Whether the ranking is useful is up to clients and other users of the data I suppose. As a server dev, I'm not sure my opinion matters that much. :)
  1000. Holger I.e. gathering data and allowing clients to filter servers based on criteria (and maybe offering filters for common use cases).
  1001. Holger Public shaming not so much.
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  1004. Zash If you apply any subjective criteria, it's probably also subjective whether it counts as public _shaming_...
  1005. Holger Apart from all that I'd allow server admins to opt out from being listed.
  1006. Zash Having an "incomplete data" category does seem sensible imo.
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  1010. Holger Zash: Well it clearly says "should not be used for registration", so it triggers questions from power users worried that they registered with something bad.
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  1012. Zash Opinions!
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  1014. Zash But yeah, that does sound a bit harsh, especially if it's really about incomplete data.
  1015. Holger Seems the opinion of an xmpp.net subdomain has some kind of authority.
  1016. Holger (And no my _personal_ issue isn't being listed as 'D' but not being able to get off that list.)
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  1018. Holger And also my football team lost today.
  1019. Zash And it's raining again!
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  1024. ernst.on.tour > And also my football team lost today. 1.FC BM ? 😂 > And it's raining again! Wrong place, sun is/was shining whole day 😝
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  1027. ernst.on.tour s/place/location
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  1030. MattJ Holger: I thought I was helping nurture community projects by offering subdomains and hosting this way, but to be honest it's been mostly nothing but trouble for me since I started 😐
  1031. Martin > Seems the opinion of an xmpp.net subdomain has some kind of authority. Hmm, I recall this discussion from the lemmy thing. :D
  1032. Holger MattJ: Sorry about that, I'll shut up on this topic in public.
  1033. Martin MattJ: Don't know whether it helps you or not but my criticism would have been the same when it was providers.kaidan.im. :)
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  1036. MattJ The thing is, now, I feel like being more careful about what I say "yes" to, but that will probably make the "authoritative" perception worse 😐
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  1038. MattJ So maybe we just need more community projects that are absurd and totally can't be mistaken as any kind of "official" thing
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  1040. mjk open subdomain registration? :))
  1041. Martin MattJ: gimme xmpp-sucks.xmpp.net 🙂
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  1043. mjk xD
  1044. mjk that _one_ will do it
  1045. MattJ mjk: Something makes me think that won't make life easier 😄
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  1048. Martin > MattJ: gimme xmpp-sucks.xmpp.net 🙂 Not sure whether to show the 'xmpp sucks' meme there or forward to that GitHub project which controls vacuum cleaners using xmpp. 🧐
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  1050. MattJ Why not both?!
  1051. mjk Martin: why not both? make "I know" on the picture a clickable region
  1052. Martin 🤣
  1053. Holger > The thing is, now, I feel like being more careful about what I say "yes" to, but that will probably make the "authoritative" perception worse 😐 Yes I totally get the issue and see no good solution. But I'd think this specific example is fine, I mean I was just suggesting changes and giving reasonings, it's not like I'm asking anyone to take that site down. If my suggestions aren't convincing so be it.
  1054. mjk an easter egg
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  1067. Martin But actually I wonder that there is an issue with seeing an xmpp.net domain as an official endorsement as most, if not all, people here should know that it is not. Do we need a mandatory banner "This website is not provided nor endorsed by the XSF" banner on all xmpp.net domains? I strongly dislike banners like that, but I also don't want MattJ to be subject to complaints for stuff happening on subdomains on xmpp.net he (or iteam? no idea) gives away as I think it's useful to give xmpp projects the possibility to get a nice xmpp domain without having to rent one themselves.
  1068. Martin But actually I wonder that there is an issue with seeing an xmpp.net domain as an official endorsement as most, if not all, people here should know that it is not. Do we need a mandatory banner "This website is not provided nor endorsed by the XSF" banner on all xmpp.net domains? I strongly dislike banners like that, but I also don't want MattJ to be subject to complaints for stuff happening on subdomains on xmpp.net he (or iteam? no idea) gives away as I think it's useful to give xmpp projects the possibility to get a nice xmpp domain without having to rent one themselves.
  1069. Martin But actually I wonder that there is an issue with seeing an xmpp.net domain as an official endorsement as most, if not all, people here should know that it is not. Do we need a mandatory "This website is not provided nor endorsed by the XSF" banner on all xmpp.net domains? I strongly dislike banners like that, but I also don't want MattJ to be subject to complaints for stuff happening on subdomains on xmpp.net he (or iteam? no idea) gives away as I think it's useful to give xmpp projects the possibility to get a nice xmpp domain without having to rent one themselves.
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  1075. MattJ Having such in a footer might not be a bad thing
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  1077. Holger ernst.on.tour: > 1.FC BM ? 😂 Now I'm worried about my image in public!
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  1079. Holger I actually meant the youth team I coach. If we're taking Bundesliga, Hertha BSC played 1:1 yesterday, would've thought it's obvious that this is the best soccer club of all time.
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  1092. Martin There was no winner, so everybody lost!
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  1180. emus > MattJ: > 2022-09-17 06:58 (GMT+02:00) > Like compliance.conversations.im lets you see non-compliant servers (but does not recommend them on the front page) > 'D' is 'F' Yup I think it rather makes sense to adjust C & D criteria instead of having another F. We have many of the critques & points listed to improve. We also think that the project has advanced any other attempt in that recommendation regard from a user perspective - but not exceeded its potential feature and fairness-wise. But it is a work in progress project and we needed to start somewhere. It was also not clear how fragemented and diverse the server setup spectra is. And also what kind of stuff people come up with. So, for the moment we would like to ask for some patience and bare with us until we get the automation done. Yes I agree that spammers or really bad guys should be shown differently than not being clear about some parameters. Last but not least: The website ist actually not the go-to for users. The users should.be onboarded through clients. In there you are free to not use list A of course or simply add if yoi think other servers should be in there. I also don't follow the public shaming thing. Yes, we have that categories, but to have some standard we need some parameters right? I think all the criteria are usually easy to come up with if your are motivated to and you get into B easy. And further more we never started blaming actively - instead we reached out or tried to discuss with all the server maintainers. The best example is the abondoned draugr.de server maintainer I had to send a postcard to reach - and it really worked. > So clients could use the existing ranking, or invent their own based on the available data. yes I hope that all content complaints are lead to us and not to MattJ
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  1187. Martin A postcard?
  1188. Martin 😲
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