XMPP Service Operators - 2023-02-18

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  83. agh

    I will only help you if you have a fierce fealty to the Crown Prince of Nigeria

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  95. diane

    you know, I don't think there is such a thing. Modern Nigeria's borders are mostly the fault of the British (and one civil war after british independance), any crown princes that aren't the British, were rules of other kingdoms.

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  100. agh

    interesting, tho, I am really of the opinion, no masters, no gods, no nations, no borders.

  101. agh

    I live in a former British penal colony, it is fucked.

  102. diane

    oh somewhere I saw that celebrating independance from the british is the most common national holiday

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  104. agh

    🤣️ awesome

  105. diane

    If you're curious here's a story of Benin the capital of one of those former kingdoms. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/18/story-of-cities-5-benin-city-edo-nigeria-mighty-medieval-capital-lost-without-trace

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  109. agh

    I am curious, thank you.

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  112. agh

    This is amazing. Are you familiar with David Graeber's works?

  113. diane

    some of it

  114. agh

    I am not a post-modernists, in fact I dislike it with a passion, but I love these pieces and academic works that dismantle the Eurocentric model of human achievement and development.

  115. Licaon_Kter

    agh, diane: take it to Offtopic pls

  116. agh

    Licaon_Kter, Shutting up now.

  117. agh

    Thank you for the reminder.

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  122. diane

    wait there's an off topic channel?

  123. Licaon_Kter

    For not-on-topic stuff some of us hang out elsewhere xmpp:conversations-offtopic-reloaded@conference.trashserver.net?join ;)

  124. diane

    ah thank you

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  129. diane

    Out of curiosity, what's the status of the XEPs for moderation? I saw the spammer was in some other channels too, and that seems like a good priority for deletion?

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  132. moparisthebest

    It's tricky, sometimes things posted in multiple MUCs are spam, and other times just important news

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  210. MattJ

    Yes, the XEPs are implemented and deployed, and we do delete stuff. Main problem is that it was sent while I was sleeping 🙂

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  213. MattJ

    Though I thought we had sufficient blocks in place after a similar spammer last year, I'll have to find out why they didn't catch it

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  344. MattJ

    Oh fun, the spammer was from Matrix, using a bridge

  345. msavoritias

    matrix has been bringing spam in the disroot room too. Not surprised it happened here too then

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  355. Licaon_Kter

    > Oh fun, the spammer was from Matrix, using a bridge Of all the bot usages I've never had a "usecase" but I added a mental todo for _"list user jids and kick matrix bridge users asking them to use xmpp"_ Any day now...

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  357. MattJ

    I don't think telling spammers to use XMPP is the solution :)

    🤣️ 1😀️ 1
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  377. Guus

    Interesting to see how this develops. If this is going to develop into something more than the one off that it appears to be today, then I wonder if we can start to investigate if this means anything, eg if automatic account creation is easier in the Matrix ecosystem than with XMPP, or that automatic message delivery APIs are easier to use, etc.

  378. Licaon_Kter

    MattJ: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But I was speaking only about spammers ;)

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  796. Jason Hammons


  797. Jason Hammons

    What does my name display as?

  798. MattJ

    Jason Hammons

  799. marc0s has left

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  801. marc0s has joined

  802. Jason Hammons

    Thank you.

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  806. bkil

    Spammers use whatever platform that makes the most financial sense. I.e., they advertise on the platforms that has sufficient number of potential paying customers & laymen. While a given messenger is only used by a few geeks, it is usually not a good target for monetization. Matrix has reached commercial viability in the recent years due to its growing popularity and appeal for common people. Although we receive most spammers from Telegram/WhatsApp still (no wonder, given the proportions).

  807. bkil

    For implementing concrete heuristics, see the XMPP MUC mod-ideas at conference.movim.eu

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  814. nuegia.net

    bkil, I call bs on that

  815. nuegia.net

    XMPP has had spammers and we developed immune systems to it

  816. nuegia.net

    xmpp being around since 1998

  817. nuegia.net

    spam is still an issue for xmpp, and it comes in waves

  818. homebeach has left

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  820. MattJ

    carlos, are you the same carlos that runs chatterboxtown?

  821. nuegia.net

    Matrix has a big spam problem because of poor, near-sighted corporate design.

  822. bkil

    I don't see how you could protect against the most common varieties in the wild, though.

  823. bkil

    I have a very elaborate scheme in draft that _might_ work in the end, but it is too complicated to implement.

  824. bkil


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  827. bkil

    XMPP would provide even less protocol level opportunities to enforce such elaborate web of trust rules than the integer power levels on Matrix.

  828. nuegia.net

    bkil, you might want to simplify your design by making each componet into a module that returns a float score

  829. nuegia.net

    of how 'spammy' something is

  830. nuegia.net

    then tally up the numbers at the end and assign score levels to actions

  831. nuegia.net

    that's how email spam detection works

  832. bkil

    I hope it is now not considered by BS by you by providing an elaboration.

  833. bkil

    I hope it is now not considered BS by you by providing an elaboration.

  834. bkil

    I do not support stochastic (random) delivery similar to what had became the norm on email today.

  835. bkil

    And it mostly only works if you are registered on one of the top few providers controlling like 90% of email addresses, otherwise you will have a really tough time to enter or negotiate any issues.

  836. nuegia.net

    I run my own mailserver

  837. nuegia.net

    I don't have a problem emailing people on bigmailer servers

  838. bkil

    On a forum that shared their stats, like 80% registered with gmail even 5 years ago. I guess the ratio today would be 90-95%.

  839. Amolith

    I assume the answer is no but I'm going to ask anyway because I'm really tired of this. Is there an effective way to ban someone who keeps creating accounts on other servers, joining my MUC, and sending extremely graphic and NSFW images? Some have been disgusting porn and others have been dismemberment. I don't know what to do other than continue playing whack-a-mole

  840. Jason Hammons has left

  841. bkil

    Sorry I'm off to sleep now

  842. nuegia.net

    Amolith, I have that problem too sometimes.

  843. MattJ

    Amolith, if you're running Prosody, set up https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_rtbl

  844. bkil

    But it's a statistical anomaly to only consider those who succeed, see negative publication bias, etc Sorry, too tired to search and link all relevant wiki articles right now

  845. nuegia.net

    Amolith, the best way i've found is to report the abuse to the provider they come in, ask them to look for other accounts on that ip address

  846. nuegia.net

    often times they do, and they find 10-30 other accounts to suspend

  847. Amolith

    MattJ, I'm not at the moment but I'm honestly considering it because it seems to have a lot more modules for preventing spam

  848. nuegia.net

    Amolith, develop a checklist for dealing with spammers

  849. bkil

    Closing words: you can get a (residential proxy) for a few cents to work around such simple IP block. And also, most providers can take days to act according to our experience.

  850. nuegia.net

    it would be really nice if we could work together on creating a blocklist for people who are creating a bunch of accounts on open reg xmpp servers

  851. Amolith

    something like this but for JIDs maybe https://github.com/JabberSPAM/blacklist

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  854. MattJ

    That's what mod_muc_rtbl does, but in real-time

  855. Amolith


  856. nuegia.net

    the jabberspam blacklist is really unfortunate

  857. MattJ

    All tonight's spam JIDs have been added to the blocklist within a minute or two of a blocklist admin being aware of a new JID

  858. Maranda[x] has joined

  859. nuegia.net

    I get a lot of legitimate users from creep.im, even tho it's listed

  860. jaj has left

  861. MattJ

    and messages have been scrubbed from the room history of MUCs I have sufficient control over

  862. nuegia.net

    thanks for that MattJ

  863. jaj has joined

  864. MattJ

    The tools are here, they're just not universally deployed

  865. msavoritias has left

  866. carlos

    MattJ: no

  867. fireburner

    Is here anyone from magicbroccoli.de Server? There is a muc and the owner hasn't been seen for a while and there are no other Moderators, but there is a user having the n-word AS there user name and he de shoukd be banned. The muc is lineage@conference.magicbroccoli.de

  868. MattJ

    carlos, okay, thanks

  869. Guus

    The tools are here, in Prosody, perhaps. Outside of it? Openfire has a jabberspam-list, but nothing as 'live' as mod_muc_rtbl

  870. raghavgururajan has left

  871. nuegia.net

    fireburner, there's also someone posting gore porn across mucs from magiccrobboli

  872. homebeach has left

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  874. fireburner

    Maybe the same person

  875. Trung

    can people start droping the spammer's IP in here?

  876. nuegia.net

    i can't see their jid as i'm not an admin in the muc it's happening, but templeos is their nick

  877. Trung

    would help quite a bit

  878. nuegia.net

    when dealing with spam every little bit helps

  879. nuegia.net

    no single solution by itself stops spam

  880. fireburner

    Now there is someone calling themself 'niggers' spamming around in multiple mucs

  881. nuegia.net

    a bunch of little systems compounded into a gestalt creates a burden larger then the spammers is willing to deal with

  882. nuegia.net

    least in most cases

  883. MattJ

    fireburner, it's almost certainly the same person

  884. MattJ

    They've been creating accounts across various servers (almost all of them deleted already), and spamming MUCs with various unpleasant stuff

  885. antranigv has left

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  887. MattJ

    If you are an operator of a Prosody server with public MUCs, ensure mod_muc_rtbl is loaded and set muc_rtbl_jid = "xmppbl.org"

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  889. MattJ

    You may also consider https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_restrict_media

  890. nuegia.net

    MattJ, quick questions about muc_rtml

  891. nuegia.net

    does that mean trusting everyone who can create and become an admin of a muc on their server

  892. nuegia.net

    and what's the link to the blacklist already on xmppbl.org?

  893. nuegia.net

    I'd like to take a look at it myself before applying it

  894. MattJ

    There's no web link, and only hashes of JIDs are in the blocklist

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  896. nuegia.net

    why hashes?

  897. Guus

    Is that plugin based on a XEP, Mattj?

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  899. MattJ

    For many reasons, JIDs may be identifying, and may contain the same offensive stuff we want to block, for example

  900. MattJ

    Guus, XEP-0060

  901. Guus

    pff :)

  902. Guus

    I think you know that's not what I ment :)

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  905. MattJ

    I wasn't sure, but I'm not sure what else to say :)

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  907. Guus

    something that defines the hashing algorithm commonly used, that has suggestions on where & when to apply additions / removals, etc.

  908. Trung

    our friend is quite active in here atm: en@chat.404.city

  909. Guus

    But from your earlier response, I take that doesn't exist.

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  911. MattJ

    Guus, no, there is no such definition. mod_muc_rtbl assumes sha256(jid) currently, mod_firewall also supports subscribing to these lists but IIRC it's configurable to use any format

  912. Guus

    A XEP makes for an easy reference into a to-be-created feature request ticket, that's all :)

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  914. MattJ

    Right now I can only offer https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_rtbl#protocol

  915. MattJ

    But it's barely a protocol right now, apart from XEP-0060

  916. Guus

    I just created a 'steal Prosody's stuff' ticket

  917. nuegia.net


  918. Guus

    although I suspect that there's little interest - most of our servers aren't big in federating - mostly inner-org, private servers.

  919. nuegia.net

    I don't see where you actually subscribe to xmppbl in the module's document or source

  920. nuegia.net


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  923. nuegia.net

    MattJ, are you thin one running xmppbl?

  924. Guus

    nuegia.net: I don't read LUA, but line 8 suggests it is a configurable option: https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/0a257d1402c3/mod_muc_rtbl/mod_muc_rtbl.lua

  925. Guus

    (which kind of makes sense to me)

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  927. nuegia.net

    I see that

  928. MattJ

    nuegia.net, xmppbl.org is run by a few people, and a few people have access to manage the blocklist

  929. MattJ

    That's about as specific as it will get for now in a public venue. You're free to take it or leave it :)

  930. nuegia.net


  931. nuegia.net

    What are the conditions for a jidhash to get added to the blocklist, or removed as of now?

  932. nuegia.net

    that's done manually by a human entering in things right now right?

  933. nuegia.net

    Is this a project that was spun up for an emergency, or a more formal thing?

  934. MattJ

    It was spun up because I was tired of manually banning JIDs across dozens of MUCs

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  939. MattJ

    There's no specific list of conditions to get on the blocklist, but it's only used when necessary (spam/abuse across multiple MUCs)

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  943. Menel

    If one could enter more then one node, and had some easy way to add and remove items, it could be quite a distributed feature.. Lots of servers could run their own nodes and others could subscribe to other nodes they trust.

  944. MattJ

    Yes, it's definitely planned to add support for more than one list (you can already do this with mod_firewall, but it's more complex than mod_muc_rtbl)

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  950. MattJ

    Multiple lists, aggregators of lists, all would be good

  951. nuegia.net


  952. nuegia.net

    thankyou for this

  953. MattJ

    But the current module was written in a limited amount of time to solve a specific problem I was facing at the time

  954. Menel

    Snikket far future feature?

  955. nuegia.net

    I'll apply it now

  956. MattJ

    Snikket servers generally don't have much of a spam problem, by their nature. But potentially, sure.

  957. Menel

    For the time everyone only uses snikket

  958. MattJ

    Well then, of course :)

  959. Menel

    The current method surely works for the one Spammer once every 6 month

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  962. nuegia.net

    MattJ, your saying mod_firewall now has the ability to update it's lists from pubsub?

  963. MattJ

    I'd like to see more work on moderation tooling in XMPP. I've thrown a few things out, and they're useful, but there's a lot more that could be done to expand them and make them more user-friendly.

  964. MattJ

    nuegia.net, yes, since 2 years ago: https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/rev/b88f05c878ac

  965. nuegia.net

    muc_rtbl_jid = "xmppbl.org" right?

  966. MattJ

    Though it looks like I possibly neglected to update the docs

  967. MattJ


  968. nuegia.net


  969. nuegia.net

    Hey is there an easy way to have an exeption list but only for passing through certain blocklists but still go through other firewall checks with mod_firewall?

  970. MattJ

    mod_firewall can do pretty much anything you want

  971. nuegia.net

    it's synxtax is kind of confusing, especially when you get chains involved

  972. MattJ

    https://modules.prosody.im/mod_firewall#check-list has an example to check a list

  973. nuegia.net

    If anybody else has encountered the same need, I was hoping they could publish a template or something

  974. nuegia.net

    Yeah, I know how to check a list, what i'm talking about is how to bypass the list check only for certain conditions

  975. moparisthebest

    nuegia.net: like https://burtrum.org/kids_firewall.pfw.txt ?

  976. Harper

    Any ejabberd support for the block list?

  977. MattJ

    Harper, not that I'm aware of, currently

  978. nuegia.net

    the usecase is i want to apply a blocklist for servers, but I want to whitelist all the jids already coming into my servers that aren't causing trouble so their not affected by the block

  979. MattJ

    Harper, I think there is a module for the text file one (which blocks whole servers), but not the real-time lists and not for MUC

  980. Chris Mac has left

  981. MattJ

    nuegia.net, I try to be mindful of that, for example Prosody's example spam-blocking rules will skip most checks for users on your roster already, and mod_muc_rtbl won't ban people who are members of a MUC

  982. homebeach has left

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  984. MattJ

    So the local server is basically the priority, and the blocklists/filtering are just used otherwise

  985. Harper

    The xmppbl is just pubsub node?

  986. MattJ


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  992. nuegia.net

    another spammer jid: niggers <niggers@chatterboxtown.us>

  993. schäfchen726 has left

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  995. diane


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  1000. a moderator removed a message

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  1012. nuegia.net

    templeos <templeos@magicbroccoli.de>

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  1019. MattJ

    That account was already deleted earlier

  1020. MattJ


  1021. nuegia.net


  1022. MattJ

    everyoneisattractedtominors@chatterboxtown.us was just added to the RTBL

  1023. mightyBroccoli

    yes the account is banned already.

  1024. nuegia.net

    with the content and names of the spam, it doesn't seem financially motivated

  1025. Ray22 has joined

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  1027. Amolith

    This is the same person who's been spamming my MIC

  1028. Amolith

    This is the same person who's been spamming my MUC

  1029. ij

    not only yours

  1030. moparisthebest

    Is this our old friend morph again

  1031. Amolith

    > not only yours Yep, I just looked through some of my other MUCs with recent activity

  1032. Amolith

    They're everywhere

  1033. p55s has joined

  1034. fireburner

    This one is spamming now everyoneisattractedtominors@chatterboxtown.us

  1035. xso has left

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  1038. wurstsalat

    now it's xmppiscensorship@chatterboxtown.us

  1039. xso has joined

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  1042. moparisthebest

    "banning people who post gore is censorship" is certainly a take lol

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  1049. Amolith

    I toggle the CAPTCHA option in my MUC through Dino. I don't know whether that actually enables a CAPTCHA but we'll see whether it makes a difference

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  1081. antranigv

    Hey operators

  1082. benk


  1083. antranigv

    for the first time we got a porn/spam in our MUC. while I banned the user, I’m not sure if I can delete the old message. any advice?

  1084. karim has left

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  1086. MattJ

    antranigv, what software does your service run?

  1087. wurstsalat

    antranigv, https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_moderation.html on prosody

  1088. antranigv

    I’m running prosody

  1089. antranigv

    I really want to move to ejabberd tho :D

  1090. antranigv

    @wurstsalat thanks. I’ll check it now

  1091. MattJ

    antranigv, enable mod_muc_moderation: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_moderation

  1092. MattJ

    Oh, wurstsalat already said, sorry :)

  1093. wurstsalat

    antranigv, you'll need a XEP-0425 capable client though (poezio, gajim, ...)

  1094. allbombson has joined

  1095. antranigv

    Gajim on macOS? lemme check

  1096. *IM* has left

  1097. wurstsalat

    some people use Gajim on macOS, yes (no official packages though)

  1098. antranigv

    okay, time to get the FreeBSD machine :D

  1099. wurstsalat

    flatearthandelitegenderinversion@chatterboxtown.us is spamming now

  1100. TheCoffeMaker

    thx wurstsalat

  1101. antranigv

    oh god, it’s the same spam everywhere

  1102. gooya

    We need like a global blacklist github of known domains with spammers

  1103. MattJ

    Since you're running Prosody, you should add mod_muc_rtbl too: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_rtbl (with muc_rtbl_jid = "xmppbl.org")

  1104. Harper

    That already exists

  1105. gooya

    Harper: Yeah I know but it is inactive

  1106. MattJ

    It's not inactive

  1107. MattJ

    The set of spammy servers doesn't change daily

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  1115. nicoco

    MattJ: just muc_rtbl_jid? no need to set muc_rtbl_node?

  1116. MattJ

    No, the default is what you want

  1117. nicoco


  1118. nicoco

    I guess restarting prosody is the easiest way to get it to load after editing the .cfg.lua?

  1119. MattJ

    prosodyctl shell config reload && prosodyctl shell module load muc_rtbl conference.example.com

  1120. antranigv

    has someone here ever done a prosody -> ejabberd migration with data and users? Users are in prosody files

  1121. antranigv

    i mean I can do it manually, I know both pretty well, but in case there was a conversion tool

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