XMPP Service Operators - 2024-01-30


  1. jonas’

    if you experience issues accessing search.jabber.network, there is an internet routing issue going on, but it's beyond my control to do anything about that.

  2. edhelas

    Did that

  3. edhelas

    https://movim.eu/.well-known/xmpp-provider-v2.json

  4. edhelas

    Wondering what should I do next ?

  5. jonas’

    delete the file and complain that it's not registered in https://www.iana.org/assignments/well-known-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml#well-known-uris-1 ? :)

  6. cal0pteryx

    edhelas: nothing, it gets picked up automatically next night

  7. edhelas

    It's magic 🪄

  8. cal0pteryx

    :)

  9. Polarian

    > if you experience issues accessing search.jabber.network, there is an internet routing issue going on, but it's beyond my control to do anything about that. Seems like a good excuse to migrate providers

  10. jonas’

    Polarian, show me a single provider not sometimes affected by routing issues.

  11. Polarian

    > Polarian, show me a single provider not sometimes affected by routing issues. It was a joke...

  12. Polarian

    nothing is perfect, and everything has downtime eventually

  13. jonas’

    good :)

  14. Polarian

    > good :) _doesn't stop people complaining though, and doesn't stop you getting sued for loss of profits if you host for a major company_

  15. jonas’

    that's what SLAs are for.

  16. Polarian

    > that's what SLAs are for. Which most companies redefine the definition of SLAs so that its only for unexpected downtime and not for expected downtime or updates etc

  17. Polarian

    never trust SLAs :P

  18. jonas’

    I'd rather say "read your SLAs closely"

  19. Polarian

    It is hilarious when your (as in mine) XMPP server goes down for one-two says because of hardware failure and then everyone sees you as incompetent and horrific uptime, yet the likes of Discord go down multiple times a day. Its like people have it in for self hosting and small companies xD

  20. Polarian

    You can say no wrong about big companies in some peoples eyes...

  21. Polarian

    > if you experience issues accessing search.jabber.network, there is an internet routing issue going on, but it's beyond my control to do anything about that. I have to admit situations like this are extremely stressful though...

  22. jonas’

    I've learned to chill :)

  23. Polarian

    I need that skill... a bad kernel update could cause a heart attack xD

  24. Polarian

    my email server can only be down for 24-48 hours before emails will never be delivered... so its a rush to get whatever network issue fixed...

  25. edhelas

    When I see the the bugs and issues on major clients such as Instagram I also learned to chill.

  26. edhelas

    The guys have delivery issues, notification clearing issues, incompatible feature between their mobile and web apps (it's the same company !) etc...

  27. Polarian

    > When I see the the bugs and issues on major clients such as Instagram I also learned to chill. yet you probably get people moan endlessly about a bug... last time I used movim OMEMO was very experimental and everyone moaned endlessly about it...

  28. edhelas

    My issue with OMEMO is that I basically don't have the JS tools to do it properly anymore

  29. Polarian

    I guess that's why companies don't let you contact them...

  30. edhelas

    And I think that Movim can live with that, I actually prefer to focus on features that are way more interesting for the project, like multi-part video-conferencing.

  31. Polarian

    It reminds me of virgin media in the UK, they are the worst ISP (Ofcom literally named them as that), they go down they have horrific customer service (they hang up on you) and yet people will always run back to them for the high internet speeds. Same thing when it comes to XMPP, people hit a hurdle (normally issues with notifications) and then go running back to whatever platform they used the most...

  32. edhelas

    We miss a nice plug-n-play web client (and desktop/mobile as well) for that, with everything standardized XMPP wise.

  33. Polarian

    > And I think that Movim can live with that, I actually prefer to focus on features that are way more interesting for the project, like multi-part video-conferencing. Got to admit it is nice movim has good A/V support and screenshare ing

  34. edhelas

    Really :D ? I'm actually wondering how much such features are used.

  35. Polarian

    Well I don't use it personally... but I know of people who have...

  36. edhelas

    Not a big A/V guy myself, I prefer the good ol' <body>text</body> for that :p

  37. Polarian

    same with me...

  38. Polarian

    unfortunately most XMPP communities I know of all use mumble

  39. Polarian

    XMPP is setup as text only, and mumble for audio

  40. Polarian

    I want to try audio calls to replace telephony

  41. Polarian

    I managed to convince a university classmate who used Discord to give XMPP a go... and they seem to actually like it, so I will see if they will agree to A/V testing, as far as I am aware: - conversations (and its forks) <-> conversations works fine - conversations <-> movim works well - conversations <-> dino works decently - movim <-> dino I heard has issues, but this was like a year ago... gajim can't be included as its missing XEP implementation (forgot which one)

  42. edhelas

    I've fixed a small issue regarding A/V compatibility with the other clients yesterday

  43. Polarian

    Relying on telephony sucks, especially with PSTN switch off in the UK at the end of this year (kill switch set to new year), and SIP being unencrypted too, so it would be nice to have a end to end encrypted IP based calls

  44. Polarian

    data is far cheaper these days too

  45. Polarian

    you can make a cheap data plan go further than minutds

  46. edhelas

    Also I'd like to implement the A/V calls in Movim a bit like Discord is doing, so integrate it in the MUC rooms, I think it's a nice way to manage things

  47. edhelas

    You keep your bookmarked rooms, but you'll see that "this room is currently having an audio/video call going on, I can join"

  48. Polarian

    oh and also the ability to use any public network to call a friend, this is especially useful in London (where I am from) where platforms either have data or public WiFi and NOT telephony or SMS coverage...

  49. Polarian

    > Also I'd like to implement the A/V calls in Movim a bit like Discord is doing, so integrate it in the MUC rooms, I think it's a nice way to manage things I actually had a few people interested in such an idea...

  50. edhelas

    And I think would replace mumble quite well :D

  51. Polarian

    I assume it would work in private rooms (group chats)

  52. edhelas

    Doesn't matter afaik, you just need a place to broadcast things

  53. Polarian

    That actually might convince some people at uni to jump ship from discord, they stream their uni work...

  54. edhelas

    So basically you can start a call in an existing MUC, or create a random throwable call between a few handpicked contacts

  55. Polarian

    personally I don't get the big attraction to studying with friends over a video call but hey... whatever floats their boat

  56. Polarian

    > You keep your bookmarked rooms, but you'll see that "this room is currently having an audio/video call going on, I can join" Reminds me of mattermost a little, where a channel can start a meeting...

  57. edhelas

    Also with screen sharing and a good server in the middle to stream the video to many participants, you basically have everything for a nice base :)

  58. Polarian

    >> You keep your bookmarked rooms, but you'll see that "this room is currently having an audio/video call going on, I can join" > Reminds me of mattermost a little, where a channel can start a meeting... oh that might make it useful for companies too...

  59. edhelas

    So yeah lots of work planned in Movim regarding that :D

  60. Polarian

    pubsub for status updates, channels for team communication and then using A/V for meetings

  61. edhelas

    2024 is the year of video-calls on XMPP

  62. Polarian

    _for movim_

  63. edhelas

    Dino already joined the dance :)

  64. Polarian

    convince gajim then say that :)

  65. edhelas

    My goal is to be compatible with Dino firstly

  66. edhelas

    (for multipart video-calls)

  67. Polarian

    sounds like a lot of code to write... and then debug :)

  68. Polarian

    Good luck

  69. edhelas

    First some refactor ;)

  70. Polarian

    I can't remember where but I have heard a lot of people complain how difficult hosting movim is...

  71. edhelas

    🤨

  72. Polarian

    I remember dotenv being introduced which simplified things a lot

  73. Polarian

    but yeah I heard its a pain...

  74. edhelas

    On a scale from 1 to Element ? How hard ?

  75. Polarian

    > On a scale from 1 to Element ? How hard ? they weren't experienced with Linux so I assume element :P

  76. Polarian

    I remember a year ago I tried to compile a list of public movim providrrs

  77. Polarian

    didn't go well :P

  78. Polarian

    would be nice to have a compiled list of movim instances to pick from, unless there is one now and I don't know of it?

  79. edhelas

    You basically have join.movim.eu for that

  80. Polarian

    > You basically have join.movim.eu for that Oh... when did you make this?

  81. edhelas

    A while back

  82. Polarian

    within a year?

  83. Polarian

    over a year?

  84. edhelas

    https://mov.im/node/pubsub.movim.eu/Movim/e3f805dd-6a67-436a-bf5b-3f7b2ab89f9d

  85. Licaon_Kter

    edhelas: shouldn't you rewrite Movim in the latest/greatest web framework already? /jk

  86. edhelas

    Waiting for the trend to loop, Movim is already implementing the NextGen™ tech of the upcoming years

  87. Polarian

    php devs ^^^

  88. Polarian

    at least it isn't js devs which have a new framework every other day

  89. edhelas

    I picked the vanilla.js framework, pretty stable stuff so far

  90. edhelas

    http://vanilla-js.com/

  91. cal0pteryx

    > http://vanilla-js.com/ Thanks :D this really brightened up my day

    ♥ 1
  92. Madiator2011

    lack of docker docs for Movim stoped me from deployment

  93. Polarian

    > lack of docker docs for Movim stoped me from deployment I was meant to get the Arch Linux package working... that was 10 months ago...

  94. edhelas

    > lack of docker docs for Movim stoped me from deployment https://hub.docker.com/r/movim/movim/tags

  95. Polarian

    when I do finally do it... I might host a movim instance to convince people... *if*

  96. Polarian

    I have heard movim uses quite a lot of resources however?

  97. Madiator2011

    not sure what ports to expose and if I need some kind database where to mount storage etc? for Movim

  98. edhelas

    > I have heard movim uses quite a lot of resources however? Depends what kind of ressources you're talking about

  99. Polarian

    >> I have heard movim uses quite a lot of resources however? > Depends what kind of ressources you're talking about CPU + mem

  100. edhelas

    CPU no, mem ~10-15mb per connected user

  101. Madiator2011

    I have 64 GB server

  102. edhelas

    Should be enough for a few Movim instances, or half a Synapse one

  103. Madiator2011

    I suspect DAEMON_URL is external user facing adress

  104. Polarian

    > CPU no, mem ~10-15mb per connected user hmm that's good though?!?!

  105. Polarian

    well whoever told me that was wrong, thx

  106. edhelas

    > I suspect DAEMON_URL is external user facing adress https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/.env.example#L10

  107. Madiator2011

    can anyone help me test if my xmpp rooms are being joinable?

  108. ☭Mike Yellow

    Send your room address.

  109. Madiator2011

    xmpp:test@conference.xmpp.madiator.cloud?join

  110. Madiator2011

    test@conference.xmpp.madiator.cloud

  111. Madiator2011

    thx for helping with test

  112. agris

    If you want to reduce internet routing issues route around cogentco

  113. agris

    Their network is extremely broken intentionally. Their trying to island the internet

  114. ben

    Really

  115. ben

    I've never heard of them

  116. moparisthebest

    Backbone provider in-fighting is above my pay grade

  117. agris

    It's been a thing for a while. Here's an example from 2009 that is ongoing today https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/10/22/peering-disputes-migrate-to-ipv6#close-modal

  118. Polarian

    > It's been a thing for a while. Here's an example from 2009 that is ongoing today https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/10/22/peering-disputes-migrate-to-ipv6#close-modal Did the cake work?

  119. agris

    No

  120. Polarian

    > No shame

  121. Polarian

    Thankfully I have IPv6 support

  122. moparisthebest

    Right, going on forever, always will, nothing you can do anyway, so why concern yourself with it?

  123. Polarian

    > Right, going on forever, always will, nothing you can do anyway, so why concern yourself with it? IPv6 superiority

  124. Polarian

    + elitism

  125. Polarian

    I am to run a v6 only IPv6 server in the following year

  126. Polarian

    maybe beginning 2025

  127. agris

    Cogentco is in the business of trying to degrade connectivity unless you pay them large sums. It's called the network islanding effect. It's fundamentally against the nature of the internet. They prey on really small isps try try and make them bait, so rural wisps who don't have a secondary backhaul suffer the most

  128. agris

    > Polarian: > 2024-01-30 10:42 (CST) > IPv6 superiority > + elitism > I am to run a v6 only IPv6 server in the following year > maybe beginning 2025 Ipv6 works great as long as your only path to the internet isn't through cogentco.

  129. Polarian

    >> Polarian: >> 2024-01-30 10:42 (CST) >> IPv6 superiority >> + elitism >> I am to run a v6 only IPv6 server in the following year >> maybe beginning 2025 > Ipv6 works great as long as your only path to the internet isn't through cogentco. we already know they suck :P

  130. hook

    I tried adding a contact from @nlnet.nl and I got an error saying that server2server connection was not allowed as my certificate is not to be trusted. That’s a first …I’ve got LetsEncrypt and it seems valid to me.

  131. hook

    Any idea what’s going wrong and how to (figure it out and) fix it?

  132. agris

    Are you using the old x3 root trust? It expired

  133. MattJ

    I think the problem is on their side, my server gets the same response

  134. hook

    agris, whatever YuNoHost is doing with LetsEncrypt 😅

  135. hook

    MattJ, hmmm, that’s weird. I’ll write them an e-mail then

  136. Guus

    I did not know NLNet had an XMPP domain.

  137. ben

    Nice

  138. hook

    Yup, they have for many years. It may be just not used as much as before (hence the issue). Writing my contact there as I type this.

  139. Polarian

    don't nlnet shill Matrix

  140. Polarian

    as they are EU funded

  141. Polarian

    and EU shills Matrix?

  142. hook

    I don’t think NLnet shills much at all really.

  143. hook

    They do fund a lot of FOSS projects, I would not be surprised if they did Matrix too.

  144. hook

    …as they did/do XMPP too :)

  145. hook

    https://nlnet.nl/project/index.html

  146. Polarian

    https://sleepmap.de/2023/operating-system-bias-in-next-generation-internet-and-nlnet/

  147. Polarian

    NLNet is funded largely by EU, EU only funds what it wants...

  148. Polarian

    https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/news/german-health-system-adopts-matrix

  149. Polarian

    EU is pro-matrix

  150. Polarian

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)#Adoption

  151. Polarian

    without making it too political (although this is politics at the end of the day) Matrix has been adopted by socialist countries... (due to their strong anti-corporate beliefs), this adoption makes Matrix mainstream...

  152. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    can we please not spread FUD/conspiracy theories here? thanks

  153. Polarian

    the full power of German government funding Matrix and element? how will XMPP ever compete?

  154. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also yeah politics is ot for this room

  155. Polarian

    > can we please not spread FUD/conspiracy theories here? thanks apologies

  156. Polarian

    even ignoring the political influence... how will XMPP (at least the chat side of the protocol, as XMPP is extensible and can do almost anything you want it to) ever compete with matrix if Matrix is adopted by major entities such as governments?

  157. Polarian

    I have known MANY XMPP users jump ship to Matrix...

  158. moparisthebest

    I'm not worried about it at all, happy to expand in another more appropriate venue

  159. agris

    > Polarian: > 2024-01-30 01:06 (CST) > without making it too political (although this is politics at the end of the day) Matrix has been adopted by socialist countries... (due to their strong anti-corporate beliefs), this adoption makes Matrix mainstream... That's funny because matrix is lead by a single corporation

  160. agris

    Good luck mixing slow government with breaking "protocol updates"

  161. Polarian

    Thankfully there is one benefit of XMPP, which is the abundance of servers and it being easier (and far lighter) to host (Openfire, prosody, ejabberd etc) meanwhile Matrix has only one stable implementation and a faster experimental rust implementation. In other words, most people just use matrix.org server and not self host, while its more common to see self hosting XMPP

  162. Licaon_Kter

    They are so happy to promote the "EU" usage, in public Then cry in their slides that "EU" big users don't contribute back Mhm

  163. hook

    Honestly, I think a major part of Matrix’ adoption is the fact that as a single entity they seem to be better organised on the PR side, whereas XMPP sometimes suffers from the committee approach (which has both + and -).

  164. Licaon_Kter

    hook: funny how millions of dollars allow you to have both devs and PR people, never thought of that Wonder is XMPP ever...

  165. hook

    Oh, that _absolutely_ helps a tonne!

  166. hook

    Anyway, as MSavoritias (fae,ve) said, we may be steering quite off topic and I apologise for my part in that.

  167. chunk

    somebody said cake?! @_@

  168. Stefan

    30.01.2024 23:33:21 - stefan_: Hello, FYI: I have noted a small doc on how to add a second notification path in Fail2ban - besides e-mail - via XMPP. It would be nice if someone wanted to test it. Maybe I have overlooked something, if there are any mistakes I would be grateful for a hint. Thank you. (my preferred markdown viewer/editor ist marktext at the moment). https://github.com/fail2ban/fail2ban/files/14105058/A.simple.XMPP.Jabber.integration.for.Fail2Ban.20240119.md

  169. Stefan

    Translation was done with help from DeepL.

  170. Stefan

    It uses go-sendxmpp as xmpp-ta

  171. hook

    Stefan: sounds intriguing. Not sure I am capable of testing it without messing up my server though

  172. Stefan

    when i wrote it and tried it out, there were always errors, but mostly only the notifications (e-mail and xmpp) stopped working, fail2ban still banned. (of course you can also make it so that fail2ban no longer starts, but that's all). but then you have a backup...

  173. Stefan

    this version i postet runs without errors on my system.

  174. Stefan

    this version i posted runs without errors on my system.

  175. Stefan

    https://private-user-images.githubusercontent.com/12584679/300989743-cad8d397-4bc1-430c-a0ff-763bd50fee01.png?jwt=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.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.z6c4Nc4r5ajzouPCmkydR5ocOEJmbwustuuhT4dSHVk

  176. Licaon_Kter

    Stefan: jwt?

  177. Stefan

    no idea.. sorry, just copied the github link.

  178. Stefan

    didn't want to paste it via gajim, this showed my xmpp server adress last time.

  179. Stefan

    or what do you mean? jwt = json web token??

  180. Licaon_Kter

    The link has a jwt token in it?

  181. Stefan

    I tried to just paste until .png, but that doesn't work

  182. Stefan

    > The link has a jwt token in it? I think so

  183. Stefan

    It's a gajim screenshot