XMPP Service Operators - 2024-02-06


  1. roughnecks

    is https://connect.xmpp.net/ broken over IPv6?

  2. roughnecks

    I'm getting all failed, while xmpp-dns is all green, and I believe my server is ok

  3. Polarian

    > I'm getting all failed, while xmpp-dns is all green, and I believe my server is ok give me your domain and I will check from my server

  4. roughnecks

    woodpeckersnest.space

  5. Menel

    Works, don't know why the fester doesn't. But you don't have an srv record for starttls on 5269

  6. Menel

    *tester

  7. roughnecks

    I'm fixing it, thanks

  8. roughnecks

    >Menel: Works, don't know why the fester doesn't. But you don't have an srv record for starttls on 5269 now the tester works too, probably usual issues can you please check again?

  9. Polarian

    roughnecks, also works from me

  10. Polarian

    although my server insists on using IPv4 over IPv6 for some reason

  11. roughnecks

    ok, thanks

  12. Polarian

    I have tried again with IPv6 only

  13. Polarian

    icebound.dev has successfully connected to woodpeckersnest.space with IPv6

  14. roughnecks

    great 👍

  15. emus

    jabber.de is having troubles again?

  16. Guus

    I saw someone report jabber.de issues last night or this morning - so possibly yes.

  17. Polarian

    They were having issues yesterday... not sure about today

  18. Polarian

    seen as their site is unreachable it seems like a yes...

  19. emus

    my contact there are also not online

  20. jonas-l

    > jabber.de is having troubles again? The unreliability of jabber.de is the reason why I am a XMPP service operator - I can not connect to it now

  21. emus

    I'm not sure how fair this is to say in this case.

  22. moparisthebest

    It's fair to say large services are hard to run reliably, even more so when purely ran by volunteers, you get (much more than) what you pay for in this case

  23. Bob Evans

    How do we know jabber.de is at fault.

  24. emus

    > It's fair to say large services are hard to run reliably, even more so when purely ran by volunteers, you get (much more than) what you pay for in this case they also took over from others

  25. Bob Evans

    And not an ISP or the like.

  26. jonas-l

    > they also took over from others Without informing the users - I realized that only when looking at their website after one of the outages

  27. jonas-l

    > It's fair to say large services are hard to run reliably, even more so when purely ran by volunteers, you get (much more than) what you pay for in this case jabber.de says (or said) that they are jabber enthusiasts - if they use it themself then I would expect faster repairs if something breaks

  28. moparisthebest

    They'll fix it or shut it down, no need for those kind of comments

  29. Bob Evans

    Migration to other servers is beneficial.

  30. jonas-l

    I'm not talking about the current situation but about the last few months - I want to understand the causes but I can not yet

  31. Bob Evans

    Less centralization.

  32. jonas-l

    > Migration to other servers is beneficial. This is what I did; to avoid these issues in the future I migrated to an own server

  33. moparisthebest

    Don't worry about the causes, they'll ask if they need help, run your own server and be happy

  34. schäfchen726

    That is not true, jonas-l! And from what I experienced yesterday I have a suspision. If I'm right, it's the only responsible move to take the server offline for the time being in my oppinion.

  35. Bob Evans

    schäfchen726: what's your suspicion.

  36. schäfchen726

    I won't spread rumors.

  37. jonas-l

    > Don't worry about the causes, they'll ask if they need help, run your own server and be happy I need this to continue trusting them - if something goes wrong I like to see transparency about it

  38. Bob Evans

    > I won't spread rumors. Ok.

  39. Bob Evans

    Then why mention it.

  40. emus

    > They'll fix it or shut it down, no need for those kind of comments well, I hope they allow at least migration in the future

  41. moparisthebest

    >> Don't worry about the causes, they'll ask if they need help, run your own server and be happy > I need this to continue trusting them - if something goes wrong I like to see transparency about it There's no need for trust

  42. BTNC

    Jabber had had a huge rash of spammers using them. I wonder they are just cleaning things out. Anonym had a similar increase a few Weeks ago. They even added captcha and i thought they removed in band registrations.

  43. jonas-l

    > There's no need for trust My trust is limited and if the avaibility is limited then I want to avoid them completly

  44. jonas-l

    > Jabber had had a huge rash of spammers using them. I wonder they are just cleaning things out. Anonym had a similar increase a few Weeks ago. They even added captcha and i thought they removed in band registrations. If you would have a maintance of any type, then you should - announce it ahead of time - communicate it at a location where other can find it I run some services where user start asking within 30 minutes after an unannounced outage - if it is announced, no one asks about it

  45. BTNC

    I agree it should be announced. But being it's free and volunteer ran it may be cumbersome to get everyone to agree on a timeline or work at the same time?

  46. jonas-l

    > I agree it should be announced. But being it's free and volunteer ran it may be cumbersome to get everyone to agree on a timeline or work at the same time? But if you turn something off then you can communicate it at this moment

  47. moparisthebest checks to see if this is the "server operators" channel or the "boldly proclaim your opinion on how volunteers should run their own servers" channel

  48. moparisthebest

    Hmm no *I* seem to be in the right place -.-

  49. Polarian

    > It's fair to say large services are hard to run reliably, even more so when purely ran by volunteers, you get (much more than) what you pay for in this case I would say its easier... especially if you colocate

  50. Polarian

    otherwise you got a few users... and bugs go unnoticed

  51. Polarian

    _as I realised with my server xD_

  52. Licaon_Kter

    jonas-l: you didn't ask your contacts to jump server in the last 2 server breakdowns already? Why?

  53. jonas-l

    I did this with the contacts that are more tech savy already - the others will follow when I meet them next time

  54. Polarian

    you guys are brutual

  55. Bob Evans

    https://www.jabber.de/?p=95

  56. Polarian

    you guys are brutal

  57. Bob Evans

    They do announce.

  58. Polarian

    jabber.de goes down and you start yanking their userbase?!?!?

  59. Polarian

    > https://www.jabber.de/?p=95 that was December 2023

  60. jonas-l

    > https://www.jabber.de/?p=95 > > They do announce. This is from last year

  61. Bob Evans

    Yes.

  62. Polarian

    anyways point is... leave the poor people alone... they obviously are trying their best xD

  63. Bob Evans

    But it shows they make announcements and are trying.

  64. Polarian

    If your server went down you wouldn't want everyone questioning your competence and telling people to migrate would you?

  65. jonas-l

    And there was only one post while there were multiple outages

  66. jonas-l

    > If your server went down you wouldn't want everyone questioning your competence and telling people to migrate would you? And thus I would communicate using other channels to tell the users that I work on fixing it

  67. Bob Evans

    The Mastodon domain does not work either.

  68. jonas-l

    Competence and multiple outages for multiple days are a strange combination

  69. Bob Evans

    https://datenwolke.io/@jabber

  70. moparisthebest

    > Competence and multiple outages for multiple days are a strange combination The fact you think this just shows you are super inexperienced and should keep quiet

  71. Polarian

    I dropped a HDD into my server case once and fried the mobo

  72. Polarian

    48 hours of downtime while I desperately looked for a replacement part

  73. Trung

    nice !

  74. Polarian

    ended up rebuilding it

  75. Polarian

    2 days of agony

  76. Polarian

    _keep replacement parts_

  77. emus

    moparisthebest: proclaiming to ignore the situation and making false acusations is nit helpful

  78. jonas-l

    > _keep replacement parts_ I use two nearly equal servers where all services could run at one of them if one of them (hardware) breaks

  79. Bob Evans

    From the blog, they are dealing with an old server, hardware issues, database issues.

  80. Bob Evans

    Not the same as forgetting to renew certificates.

  81. Licaon_Kter

    Polarian: it won't be so brutal if events would be more spaced...

  82. Polarian

    >> _keep replacement parts_ > I use two nearly equal servers where all services could run at one of them if one of them (hardware) breaks all well and good until the duplication fails and when one drops out the other fails to kick ij

  83. Polarian

    in*

  84. Polarian

    I guess you could load balance and mirror the database across both servers

  85. agris

    I'm also struggling to get my servers back up due to funding

  86. Polarian

    but again... bad duplication, one won't work without the other

  87. Polarian

    > I'm also struggling to get my servers back up due to funding yikes...

  88. Polarian

    money seems to haunt us all :(

  89. agris

    My hardware was damaged and I can't afford an isp in the new place

  90. Polarian

    hm

  91. Polarian

    move it to a vps?

  92. Polarian

    for the time being?

  93. agris

    Can't afford that either

  94. Polarian

    I would run a public node seen as I have the resources to... but I don't wanna deal with the legality of doing so...

  95. Licaon_Kter

    > 48 hours of downtime while I desperately looked for a replacement part I had the same when ISP switched to DSLite or power was off or internet was off I guess each member here has a story like that, so we understand...

  96. Polarian

    data protection laws are a apin

  97. Polarian

    pain*

  98. agris

    Can't afford shower curtains until first paycheck kicks in

  99. Polarian

    >> 48 hours of downtime while I desperately looked for a replacement part > I had the same when ISP switched to DSLite or power was off or internet was off > > I guess each member here has a story like that, so we understand... do you colocate?

  100. moparisthebest

    > moparisthebest: proclaiming to ignore the situation and making false acusations is nit helpful emus: I don't know what you mean, I'm simply saying here isn't the place to put down other server operators or tell them how they should run things

  101. emus

    I don't see putting down. I also wonder what operatoruc is there for else

  102. agris

    When I get my servers back up I'm going to figure out a way for paid accounts

  103. Polarian

    I might get sued

  104. agris

    This is not normal and wouldn't of happened if I wasn't the victim of a crime.

  105. Polarian

    I haven't declared the nature of my network uss

  106. Polarian

    use*

  107. Polarian

    In the UK you must declare if you are a communications provider or ISP

  108. Polarian

    but the definitions for both are obscure

  109. Polarian

    so consult a lawyer... which is £500/hr

  110. agris

    I was planning on doing that anyways but life kept getting in the way

  111. Polarian

    but considering my server is for personal use with friends... I might not even class as communication provider as I believe it must have money change hand

  112. Polarian

    I think quite a few people have a similar situation here? XMPP server run for friends and family to talk securely and privately?

  113. MattJ

    > In the UK you must declare if you are a communications provider or ISP Where would you declare this?

  114. moparisthebest

    > I don't see putting down. > > I also wonder what operatoruc is there for else emus: > jabber.de says (or said) that they are jabber enthusiasts - if they use it themself then I would expect faster repairs if something breaks Is putting down > If you would have a maintance of any type, then you should > - announce it ahead of time > - communicate it at a location where other can find it Is telling others how they should run things unsolicited I would like to see neither of these here, and I'd add idle speculation as to the cause of downtime

  115. Polarian

    >> In the UK you must declare if you are a communications provider or ISP > Where would you declare this? You inform your ISP, unless you are a BGP peer then... I am not too sure...

  116. Polarian

    you declare it somehow

  117. Polarian

    I only heard about it 6-12 months ago

  118. Polarian

    its UK-only and VPS aren't affected

  119. MattJ

    I am quite sure there is nothing that an XMPP server would qualify for (whereas it's less clear in other countries)

  120. Polarian

    its specifically if you own the network

  121. Polarian

    > I am quite sure there is nothing that an XMPP server would qualify for (whereas it's less clear in other countries) hm

  122. emus

    moparisthebest: Its a comment on expectations I think the listed points are pretty valid on how to run a big public server.

  123. Polarian

    thankfully government won't come chasing me for a small hobby

  124. MattJ

    Polarian, Online Safety Bill aside, it would likely be Ofcom, and trust me they don't want to know about random XMPP servers

  125. Polarian

    but if I started a public XMPP server

  126. Polarian

    I would need data policies

  127. Polarian

    terms of service

  128. Polarian

    declare the nature of my traffic

  129. MattJ

    Under GDPR, yes, if it's not a "household activity", which it would not be if you charged money

  130. MattJ

    IANAL, but I run a commercial XMPP service in the UK

  131. Polarian

    > IANAL, but I run a commercial XMPP service in the UK via a hosting provider or self hosted?

  132. Polarian

    hosting provider does the legal stuff

  133. Polarian

    self hosting on a commercial level is... paperwork

  134. Polarian

    > IANAL, but I run a commercial XMPP service in the UK prosody.org?

  135. Polarian

    or .com I forget the TLD

  136. moparisthebest

    > moparisthebest: Its a comment on expectations > > I think the listed points are pretty valid on how to run a big public server. emus: this is not the venue to comment on your expectations of other's volunteer time, nor the place for a diatribe of someone's opinion on the "proper" way to run a server

  137. emus

    moparisthebest: well, volunteer or not, they take a responsibility. and there are proper ways of running service and not. we speak of more than active 4000 xmpp users

  138. kapad

    » [20:20:28] <MattJ> Under GDPR, yes, if it's not a "household activity", which it would not be if you charged money MattJ, what is tell the `one` than the `other` ? if i hold an account of myself, but also my server do `s2s`...? what is it private or public instance ?

  139. moparisthebest

    I disagree, and it irks me to see unhelpful/harmful comments from the peanut gallery if you aren't happy with someone else's volunteer server, run your own huge public server if you know exactly the right way to do it, I wish you the best of luck, just don't harass those already doing it

  140. jonas-l

    >> I use two nearly equal servers where all services could run at one of them if one of them (hardware) breaks > all well and good until the duplication fails and when one drops out the other fails to kick ij There is only a manual migration process because automating this correctly is difficult - just someone has to react which is possible within hours if it ever happens > I guess you could load balance and mirror the database across both servers Difficult if you want consistency and avaibility > I think quite a few people have a similar situation here? XMPP server run for friends and family to talk securely and privately? That's what I do > but if I started a public XMPP server > > I would need data policies > terms of service > declare the nature of my traffic I consider this the simpler things - I wrote terms of use and privacy policies a few times and filled some declaration forms; I would expect work for the support (my password does not work anymore ...) and the abuse report processing

  141. Polarian

    >> [20:20:28] <MattJ> Under GDPR, yes, if it's not a "household activity", which it would not be if you charged money > MattJ, what is tell the `one` than the `other` ? if i hold an account of myself, but also my server do `s2s`...? what is it private or public instance ? That is a concern

  142. Polarian

    because you are storing others data

  143. Polarian

    logs from others servers

  144. Polarian

    messages from other servers

  145. Polarian

    technically if they ask you to delete data stored about them you should...

  146. Polarian

    so technically decentralisation you are seen as a commercial server even if you are private, simply for peering with a commercial server

  147. kapad

    ..., make sense...

  148. Polarian

    > I disagree, and it irks me to see unhelpful/harmful comments from the peanut gallery > > if you aren't happy with someone else's volunteer server, run your own huge public server if you know exactly the right way to do it, I wish you the best of luck, just don't harass those already doing it I think the solution is for another implementation of the XMPP server

  149. Polarian

    xDDDDD

  150. Polarian

    the more the merrier :P

  151. Polarian

    _technically the more implementations, the stronger chance of a better server overall_

  152. Polarian

    if not all servers are compatible then someone implemented something badly :P

  153. rrbd1957

    > &gt; jabber.de is having troubles again? > The unreliability of jabber.de is the reason why I am a XMPP service operator - I can not connect to it now Yup, still none of my contacts on jabber.de can be reached, and I can not login with my jabber.de account.

  154. kapad

    So, here the hard question, ( not funny, spend **a lot** on this), ``` - how can someone `claim` the `private` term on a service, when this service use the common internet as medium ? - internet traffic is public, none private bought it (yet), so everything happen on level on usage... - So, how ? ```

  155. Polarian

    > So, here the hard question, ( not funny, spend **a lot** on this), > ``` > - how can someone `claim` the `private` term on a service, when this service use the common internet as medium ? > - internet traffic is public, none private bought it (yet), so everything happen on level on usage... > - So, how ? > ``` why do you think digital law is such a pain in the are?

  156. Polarian

    arse*

  157. agris

    you guys have it easy

  158. agris

    in the US old boomers who ask mark zuckerburg how the internet works set the laws for it

  159. Polarian

    also another concern is public servers make me vulnerable to attack

  160. Polarian

    or well a bigger target

  161. Polarian

    as a hobby do I want to have to worry about digital security and securing others data?

  162. Polarian

    cause under law you must provide adequate security and you get sued if you lose data

  163. agris

    "does your tiktok use my wiefae!?"

  164. Polarian

    xD

  165. agris

    *what the internet is

  166. Polarian

    also I have seen issues with open registration...

  167. Polarian

    I would preferably have a mailing list to request accounts/deletions/data

  168. Polarian

    and then also for support and status alerts

  169. Polarian

    then again a RPI 4/5 is powerful enough for a few thousand users...

  170. kapad

    Polarian: here is a real-life example: - Have a music lib, legally bought, on my home's pc - Now i want use `mpc` transmit that music, **only for me**, so to hear in office - do i transmit illegal music ? - how i can prevent you (...,....,finally) or any other access my stream

  171. Polarian

    > then again a RPI 4/5 is powerful enough for a few thousand users... bandwidth is more limiting especially if people start uploading tons

  172. Polarian

    > Polarian: here is a real-life example: > - Have a music lib, legally bought, on my home's pc > - Now i want use `mpc` transmit that music, **only for me**, so to hear in office > - do i transmit illegal music ? > - how i can prevent you (...,....,finally) or any other access my stream which is another reason why digital "piracy" isn't piracy

  173. Polarian

    I never stole anything, I just copy it :P

  174. moparisthebest

    If s2s enabled on your server makes you a public communications provider that must register with your authoritarian govt, then so does carrying a phone that can accept calls from commercial sources 🤷‍♂️

  175. Polarian

    > If s2s enabled on your server makes you a public communications provider that must register with your authoritarian govt, then so does carrying a phone that can accept calls from commercial sources 🤷‍♂️ exactly

  176. Polarian

    see how dumb digital communication laws are?

  177. kapad

    Polarian: was not a funny question, not a simple either, goes down to the rabbit hole...

  178. Polarian

    I think I would have to incorporate as a private limited company, probably by guarantee (non-profit) to then shield against lawsuits

  179. Polarian

    then I'm not personally liable (aka messing up the law won't find me broke for life)

  180. Polarian

    I'm just gonna go with most XMPP servers are too small for governments to give a shit

  181. Polarian

    look at WhatsApp (1+ billion users)

  182. Polarian

    and look at you...

  183. Polarian

    who are they gonna go for?

  184. Bob Evans

    The easy target.

  185. Polarian

    > The easy target. _gulp_

  186. Polarian

    I'm probably just overly cautious

  187. Bob Evans

    But that should not dissuade against operating a server.

  188. kapad ... maybe the short answer is everything is public, any user must obey the rules of what `public` service is, no matter if they know it, or know how to implemented it, let's say in their phones/sms ...

  189. Polarian

    > But that should not dissuade against operating a server. I already operate two servers but neither are public

  190. Polarian

    but I have the capacity to accommodate more people

  191. Polarian

    but my issue is the legal implications of accepting more

  192. Polarian

    me and a few friends arent a big deal

  193. jonas-l

    > If s2s enabled on your server makes you a public communications provider that must register with your authoritarian govt, then so does carrying a phone that can accept calls from commercial sources 🤷‍♂️ The phone network provider must register

  194. Polarian

    200+ random people all wanting security and privacy

  195. Polarian

    that's a lot of pressure

  196. Polarian

    and then ensuring its not used to abuse or spam

  197. Polarian

    ensure they aren't abusing the service too

  198. Polarian

    and at least attempt to prevent illegal shit going through your server...

  199. Polarian

    and with new UK regulations... who the fuck knows what other shit I could be sued for...

  200. kapad

    for everything, even the simplest and normal ....

  201. kapad

    ``` When a user share his/her data with a 3rd party, can not have privacy expectations. ``` ^ that was a part of US high court, on a case, while someone try to claim privacy on his data

  202. kapad

    so, i email you **through** email provider, i connect to you **through** isp, i call you **through** phone company...

  203. kapad

    job done.

  204. kapad i forgot payments

  205. kapad

    .

  206. Polarian

    > ``` > When a user share his/her data with a 3rd party, can not have privacy expectations. > ``` > ^ that was a part of US high court, on a case, while someone try to claim privacy on his data errr

  207. Polarian

    issue is this is America

  208. Polarian

    I want UK law :)

  209. kapad

    everything is America

  210. kapad

    ¯\_Ο_/¯

  211. kapad

    `BrExit` itself, was america

  212. kapad

    `EU` is america

  213. Bob Evans

    USA.

  214. Bob Evans

    Not America.

  215. kapad

    ok, right !

  216. kapad

    so, i'll connect later, but i leave my question, if someone tech expert or experience have an answer, an opinion on that

  217. kapad

    ~ ``` - how can someone `claim` the `private` term on a service, when this service use the common internet as medium ? ```

  218. Menel

    This is just not how the laws work. They're not philosophers first semester with too much time

  219. jonas-l

    > ~ > ``` > - how can someone `claim` the `private` term on a service, when this service use the common internet as medium ? > ``` - the "internet" can use trusted carriers for many routes - cryptography exists

  220. MattJ

    kapad: the GDPR does not use the term "private service" or "public service", it uses the term "household activity", which is generally taken to mean things like "provided for people you know" and "non-commercial"

  221. kapad

    thanks! so it's `household activity`... | `cryptography exists`, yes, but not for all

  222. kapad

    » [21:12:55] <Menel> This is just not how the laws work. is not the place to talk about this, just, if go this way, it leads you right inside `the` trap. Cause against the apply of a law `company` or `individual` is the same, both are privates, if not, then we have a problem... So this is exact ow the law **should** work.

  223. kapad

    and people that paid 15k/month and scratch their b*lls all day, i suppose have by far more time than the ancient or modern philosophers

  224. kapad

    .

  225. emus

    jabber.de seems to be back again

  226. kapad

    Menel: if care, remember to enter the zero semester, cause trust me everything after that is just out of scope. this is not something that can taught, but history can

  227. kapad now back to learn the big snake crawl around stanzas...