XMPP Service Operators - 2024-03-06


  1. agris

    Omemo has been a absolute disaster and is a great way to lose your chat history and messages to the ether. It also has terrible support across clients and is way to complex for most projects who can't afford a full-time team to implement requiring major overhauls to how xmpp clients work. Worst of all for some unknown reason the pushing of omemo causes most xmpp clients to drop OTR support which was fine and cryptographically secure, even allowed secure interoperation between irc and sms. Now we have nothing.

  2. agris

    If you use omemo say goodbye to consistent message history

  3. antranigv

    really? I’ve been pretty okay with OMEMO

  4. antranigv

    but to be fair, I’ve been doing OMEMO for a long time, and I know how it works properly

  5. antranigv

    hence I never lost any messages

  6. unix.dog

    I make regular backups of my encrypted chat logs so I can read them

  7. unix.dog

    The whole point is that it's encrypted

  8. antranigv

    That’s a possibility too

  9. Wirlaburla

    I have never had any problems with Omemo.

  10. unix.dog

    There are ways to make it more friendly though like how Matrix lets you pull messages from other devices that had it decrypted

  11. unix.dog

    But matrix has another bag of worms that lets it do that

  12. snikket dot deeeeee

    It's certainly client dependend.and there are clients where it works badly. Like every feature everywhere.

  13. agris

    https://blog.codinghorror.com/content/images/uploads/2007/03/6a0120a85dcdae970b0128776ff992970c-pi.png

  14. Wirlaburla

    Pidgin and Prosody are the two I've tried that I know have bad OMEMO.

  15. snikket dot deeeeee

    Matrix just makes it not really beeing forward secret z but keeping the buzzword around

  16. antranigv

    bunch of our regional servers are down because the f*cking ISP decided to change the IPs without asking us

  17. Wirlaburla

    Pidgin and Profanity are the two I've tried that I know have bad OMEMO.

  18. snikket dot deeeeee

    Prosody has nothing to do with bad ommeo. Pidgin very likely yes

  19. Wirlaburla

    I corrected it.

  20. snikket dot deeeeee

    Ah profanity, I don't know about it

  21. antranigv

    Yeah, Pidgin and Profanity are not really good with OMEMO. Altho they are both pretty good with OTR

  22. antranigv

    hey maybe I should use Profanity again. does it support HTTP file upload?

  23. antranigv

    according to https://profanity-im.github.io/xeps.html it does

  24. snikket dot deeeeee

    But tbh. Otr is also not really good, and you can very easily loose messages even with a bug free Otr. Just usr another device, it will only work with one and of you don't backup that session its lost

  25. antranigv

    going to port profanity on illumos now.

  26. Licaon_Kter

    agris: you had an axe to grind in that rant? OTR had no multidevice, no offline messages and no group messages. But it was fine???

  27. agris

    It worked for what it did. Also if I'm needing secrecy of that level I really don't want multidevice

  28. agris

    It also worked as a good fallback when omemo doesn't

  29. Wirlaburla

    Psi+ still has OTR.

  30. Licaon_Kter

    Oh it's all about what YOU need? Interesting. Well... others needed OMEMO.

  31. Martin

    Wirlaburla: > Pidgin and Profanity are the two I've tried that I know have bad OMEMO. Works good for me with profanity.

  32. Licaon_Kter

    If a client has issues, yes, report them help them or switch.

  33. Martin

    Also OT here as it has nothing to do with operating a server.

  34. agris

    No, they probably don't. If you need that level of privacy and secrecy you should be running your own server anyways

  35. agris

    Which is already protected by tls

  36. Licaon_Kter

    ...and then use OMEMO so the hoster does not steal it lol

  37. Wirlaburla

    » [10:50:53] <Martin> Works good for me with profanity. It's not perfect. It's not complete garbage like Pidgin, but it had some issues with trusting omemo fingerprints for me.

  38. Wirlaburla

    In the end, it became frustrating so I abandoned it.

  39. Wirlaburla

    agris: It works for me and plenty of other people just fine. Report bugs you encounter instead of whining. Whining doesn't fix anything.

  40. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    calling people's problems whining doesnt help Wirlaburla

  41. unix.dog

    this whole convo is off topic but insulting someone because it's not working for them is not productive either

  42. agris

    Unless your setting up a grant to fix omemo in other xmpp projects i have every right to complain about a bad xep that should be dropped

  43. Wirlaburla

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): You aren't helping either.

  44. agris

    Not going full steam ahead and removing alternatives while the new thing is still only alpha quality

  45. Wirlaburla

    agris: There isn't anything wrong with Omemo. Implementations of it just aren't perfect.

  46. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also being saying that everybody should drop omemo is not productive. there are alternatives and xmpp offers them. you can just not implement omemo. i dont plan to implement it for example

  47. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also saying that everybody should drop omemo is not productive. there are alternatives and xmpp offers them. you can just not implement omemo. i dont plan to implement it for example

  48. agris

    That maybe fine for now but what will we do when more clients enforce omemo like dino does or you launch a omemo client ounce, it contaminates your account so you can no longer read messages people send you for years because their omemo

  49. Wirlaburla

    Then those are just bad clients.

  50. agris

    Right...

  51. Licaon_Kter

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): in what?

  52. agris

    Pretty much every xmpp client is a bad client though, some in worse ways then others

  53. agris

    (no offense)

  54. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Licaon_Kter, i am working on an xmpp thing

  55. Licaon_Kter

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): > calling people's problems whining doesnt help But coming here and ranting does?

  56. Wirlaburla

    I can agree that the client space in XMPP is lacking.

  57. agris

    But the state of xmpp clients leaves a lot to be desired

  58. Licaon_Kter

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): good luck with it

  59. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > MSavoritias (fae,ve): > > calling people's problems whining doesnt help > But coming here and ranting does? i replied to that no?

  60. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    replying too quickly probably

  61. agris

    We can't just write off problems with xeps as bad xmpp clients

  62. moparisthebest

    agris: everything you do and work on is bad (no offense) (Note the above is satire to make a point)

  63. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    bad xeps seems like a problem to discuss on jdev :)

  64. moparisthebest

    Or xsf@ yes

  65. Wirlaburla

    agris: Perhaps tell us what happened. Shit doesn't happen by itself, so something must've caused the issue you have experienced.

  66. Wirlaburla

    But coming in and telling everyone that a XEP is bad because clients can't get it right isn't productive to anything.

  67. Wirlaburla

    But yes, jdev would probably be more suitable.

  68. agris

    I can't think of other xeps where if it's not implemented exactly the same correctly on every client you lose access to your coms

  69. Wirlaburla

    You can try sending stanzas not formed correctly and see what happens.

  70. moparisthebest

    > I can't think of other xeps where if it's not implemented exactly the same correctly on every client you lose access to your coms That's nearly all XEPs 🤣

  71. edhelas

    > You can try sending stanzas not formed correctly and see what happens. I'm using a small AI trained on all the XEPs to fix my outgoing stanzas and prevent such issues

  72. snikket dot deeeeee

    Should've said you trained a neural net. https://xkcd.com/2173/