XMPP Service Operators - 2024-05-02

  1. f_

    I saw yesterday there's an #xmpp channel on libera :P

  2. f_

    Not documented anywhere, is it? Or is it unofficial?

  3. Licaon_Kter

    f_: dog food, c'mon

  4. MattJ

    f_: it's semiofficial, but not official :)

  5. MattJ

    There has always been one, it was called #(#)jabber back in the day, and protocol discussions began there (XMPP didn't have group chats from day 1)

  6. Polarian

    > f_: dog food, c'mon dog food?

  7. Licaon_Kter

    Polarian: ~google~search for the term

  8. cal0pteryx

    Polarian: using your own tech in order to make it better

  9. Polarian

    how would using IRC be dogfooding though?

  10. Licaon_Kter

    To taste it, for better or worse, then improve the recipe

  11. Licaon_Kter

    Polarian: that's the point, it isn't... you should not.

  12. Licaon_Kter

    ...not use IRC when XMPP allows you to have these here.

  13. Polarian

    > Polarian: that's the point, it isn't... you should not. but you said that to funderscore?

  14. Licaon_Kter

    We're lost in translation? :)

  15. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, please don't just say "google that", explain terms you use which people don't understand.

  16. Licaon_Kter

    jonas’: too late now, already explained

  17. Polarian

    Licaon_Kter, so you said to funderscore its for dogfooding when IRC has nothign to do with it?

  18. Licaon_Kter


  19. Polarian

    funderscore == F_

  20. Polarian

    funderscore == f_

  21. Licaon_Kter


  22. Polarian

    f_ full username is funderscore

  23. Licaon_Kter

    Aaaa, right, we were lost indeed :))

  24. f_

    MattJ: heh ok :)

  25. f_

    Licaon_Kter: Ah yes, dogfooding :)

  26. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, sure, but for the next itme.

  27. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, sure, but for the next time.

  28. Licaon_Kter

    jonas’: you know me, it will be worse :shrug:

  29. f_


  30. Polarian

    Licaon_Kter, bannable offense?

  31. Licaon_Kter

    I hope

  32. jonas’

    do you?

  33. ogechukwukamma

    help I just ate a whole bowl of dog food but afterwards there are still xmpp servers not supporting tls1.3 :(

  34. jonas’


  35. Polarian

    > help I just ate a whole bowl of dog food but afterwards there are still xmpp servers not supporting tls1.3 > :( What? How does dog food have anything to do with TLS 1.3?!?!?

  36. ogechukwukamma

    but actually if the admins are here or someone can ping them: quicksy.im, jabber.calyxinstitute.org, lu.net.eu.org

  37. MattJ

    jabber.calyxinstitute.org is not going to get fixed

  38. MattJ

    They declared years ago they don't care about that service, it's running ancient software which likely has security bugs

  39. ogechukwukamma

    why don't they shut it down?

  40. Polarian

    since when did MattJ have an avatar?

  41. Polarian

    or did it change?

  42. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    avatars in xmpp are like blue moons sometimes they appear and bring luck to people who see them. then they dissapear until next time

  43. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    slightly joking. couldnt see the avatar until today too

  44. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also cant see an avatar from another group chat even though they set it

  45. jonas’


  46. jonas’

    I was under the impression that the avatar flakiness was mostly solved, but as I learned the other day, it is very much not.

  47. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah idk at what level or xep it is but its not

  48. Polarian

    jonas’, do you have one?

  49. jonas’

    not here, no

  50. Polarian

    Openfire is yet to support MUCs for avatar 🙂

  51. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    i mean maybe they do and you see it someday :P

  52. Polarian

    so I don't

  53. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    lets keep the mystery

  54. jonas’

    MSavoritias (fae,ve), I used to have one which wasn't quite suitable for work, and of course some matrix gateway I used for work latched onto it and shows it to this day, despite me unpublishing it years ago.

  55. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    ah yeah of course

  56. MattJ

    In my case it's because I don't use any clients that support avatars

  57. MattJ

    But it reappears briefly when I restart my client (which is, indee, once in a blue moon)

  58. Polarian

    you use profanity?

  59. jonas’

    MattJ, you need to run an idle aioxmpp client with the avatar module loaded just to make sure you get your vcard presence broadcast :)

  60. MattJ

    Polarian: poezio

  61. MattJ

    And yaxim on my phone

  62. Polarian

    weird choice

  63. Polarian


  64. moparisthebest

    If it ain't broken don't fix it

  65. TheCoffeMaker

    best of reasons

  66. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, now that I'm back on my private machine: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#welcome ; throwing "google that" at people is not what I'd define as welcoming, nor is it something I would consider "friendly and supportive".

  67. f_

    MattJ: poezio does support avatars IIRC?

  68. MattJ

    Somehow, but not in mine. Might need a plugin.

  69. Licaon_Kter

    jonas’: Y U can't into jokes?

  70. jonas’

    Licaon_Kter, I don't see the joke in "search for the term"

  71. luca

    When I wanted to learn more about xmpp I joined #xmpp on libera and asked around. The channel is dead of course, but it's hard to join xmpp when you don't really understand much about it and you are already on IRC

  72. Polarian

    > Licaon_Kter, I don't see the joke in "search for the term" I get told this a lot...

  73. Polarian

    Then again I never know when people are joking or not, so I take everything seriously 🙂

  74. Polarian

    > When I wanted to learn more about xmpp I joined #xmpp on libera and asked around. The channel is dead of course, but it's hard to join xmpp when you don't really understand much about it and you are already on IRC IRC isn't the main place to ask... https://xmpp.org has a lot of useful information to find server/clients and joining XMPP channels is a good way to ask about too

  75. Polarian

    Maybe there should be a XSF chatroom just for users? like a Q/A style room? currently I do not see one (https://xmpp.org/community/chat/)

  76. MattJ

    Licaon_Kter, a general observation: jokes don't carry well over the internet/text chat compared to in-person communication. Second observation: you make a lot of jokes :) Even though I get most of them, it doesn't surprise me that some people don't. Then they just feel confused.

  77. Polarian

    luca, I doubt anyone would mind asking here?

  78. luca

    But it's awfully accessible when you don't know XMPP and know IRC. So IMO the libera channel is great to have

  79. Polarian

    XSF doesn't have people paid to sit in an IRC channel all day...

  80. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and a lot of the times it depends on context with jokes

  81. Menel

    There are some QA rooms, that are not hosted on xmpp.org. Like joinjabber

  82. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yep. https://joinjabber.org

  83. Polarian

    luca, also a lot of people object to using anything other than XMPP, some people here refuse to use email even...

  84. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    no account needed to chat

  85. Polarian

    I don't think joinjabber is a good idea...

  86. MattJ

    Polarian, nobody paid me, but I did hang out in #xmpp. I'm currently off all IRC channels due to the unnecessary distraction though.

  87. MattJ

    Hopefully some folk are still there to point people in the right direction when they need it

  88. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Polarian, it solves the problem of learning about xmpp without being on xmpp :)

  89. Polarian

    MattJ, what I meant is "you can't expect people to freely give their time, nobody is paid2

  90. Polarian

    MattJ, what I meant is "you can't expect people to freely give their time, nobody is paid"

  91. jonas’

    MattJ, I'm now :)

  92. Polarian

    MSavoritias (fae,ve), but their CoC is extreme

  93. MattJ

    Great :)

  94. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Polarian, i mean if you just browse the site and ask questions im sure nobody minds

  95. luca

    Sorry, I definetely didn't want xmpp support on IRC or anything. Just friendly chat protocol war mostly :P

  96. Polarian

    > Polarian, i mean if you just browse the site and ask questions im sure nobody minds true... but I thought you were referencing their channels

  97. jonas’ wonders what you need to do to get into trouble with the JJ-CoC when all you want is some XMPP/Jabber support.

  98. Polarian

    > /me wonders what you need to do to get into trouble with the JJ-CoC when all you want is some XMPP/Jabber support. Its too extreme... to the point of being unwelcoming

  99. Polarian

    instead of banning all politics, they only ban right wing politics... things like this are open to abuse...

  100. Polarian

    anyways I think they are cool for helping getting people in, but I definitely feel they are too extreme to be the standard for welcoming people

  101. Polarian

    I do have a question... why is there no XSF channel like welcome@xmpp.org

  102. Polarian

    wouldn't it be an amazing idea?

  103. Polarian

    sorry welcome@muc.xmpp.org

  104. MattJ

    The equivalent used to be jabber@conference.jabber.org

  105. MattJ

    That was for users, and then jdev@conference.jabber.org was for developers

  106. Polarian

    didn't that channel shut down?

  107. MattJ

    It still exists

  108. MattJ

    But now it's mostly for talking about jabber.org

  109. Polarian

    luca, anyways point is... I doubt anyone cares if you ask questions here... and server operators are likely to be very knowledgable too

  110. jonas’

    Polarian, I do care somewhat, in fact. I'm trying to get this channel back on track to avoid having to take more drastic measures, which means also cutting down the off-topic a little.

  111. jonas’

    so general XMPP questions don't belong here.

  112. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    ^ its for server operators

  113. jonas’

    (also, a normal user won't even get the possibility to speak here due to the new membership rules)

  114. Polarian


  115. Polarian

    right I forgot about that...

  116. Polarian

    so what is the standard channel for users these days then?

  117. jonas’

    the joinjabber channels are good :-)

  118. Polarian


  119. Polarian

    I guess they win due to lack of a better alternative then...

  120. MattJ

    You're welcome to set up your own user-focused Jabber/XMPP promotion group :)

  121. MattJ

    The XSF generally focuses on developers, which is why there isn't somewhere for user support

  122. Polarian

    MattJ, that would require GDPR, which means ICO registration

  123. Polarian

    wait MattJ aren't you the one who said you run servers in the UK?

  124. Polarian

    _If so I have questions_

  125. MattJ

    I've seen your questions on the mailing list :)

  126. Polarian


  127. Polarian


  128. MattJ


  129. Polarian

    I did email the ICO to have their take (I have a relative in IT, and they said ICO is very open to discussing it, just shoot them an email), but I haven't heard back, hence why I didn't continue the thread on the ML right now

  130. MattJ

    I think a lot of the answers to your questions are "we don't know"

  131. Polarian

    you are registered I assume?

  132. Polarian

    theres no way you are not

  133. Polarian

    Anyways its a good thing to think about at least... and if I can get a response back from the ICO I will post their feedback to the ML in case it helps others... but I guess for now I got to play the waiting game.

  134. MattJ

    Polarian, no, not registered

  135. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    jj doesnt do anything specific for gdpr btw

  136. jonas’

    (periodic reminder that this channel is publicly logged)

  137. Polarian

    MattJ, but you store data on people...

  138. Polarian

    you provide a service...

  139. Polarian

    I thought your entire thing was providing managed hosting for others?

  140. Polarian

    > (periodic reminder that this channel is publicly logged) Point?

  141. Polarian

    mailing list archives are 100x more useful than jabber archives... at least imo

  142. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    also regarding hosting and such https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2024/04/30/surveillance-and-hadopi-eu-court-buries-online-anonymity-a-little-further/ > Whereas in 2020, the CJEU considered that the retention of IP addresses constituted a serious interference with fundamental rights and that they could only be accessed, together with the civil identity of the Internet user, for the purpose of fighting serious crime or safeguarding national security, this is no longer true. The CJEU has reversed its reasoning: it now considers that the retention of IP addresses is, by default, no longer a serious interference with fundamental rights, and that it is only in certain cases that such access constitutes a serious interference that must be safeguarded with appropriate protection measures.

  143. Polarian

    > jj doesnt do anything specific for gdpr btw not jj... I am talking more about MUCs on my server

  144. Polarian

    to start a MUC on my server I will be storing data on behalf of someone else... and providing a service

  145. Polarian

    this _could_ remove the residential exemption and thus mean I am GDPR liable... and anyone who is liable to UK GDPR must pay the ICO fee...

  146. Polarian

    failure to pay the fee carries a hefty fine... hence why I am worried about it

  147. Polarian

    currently I am working on the premise they are too busy to come after some random guy who likes to self host...

  148. Polarian

    also MSavoritias (fae,ve) although EU GDPR and UK GDPR are almost identical, they are enforced by different authorities...

  149. ogechukwukamma

    is there an xep for the invitation mechanism of snikket/prosody?

  150. Menel

    See https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0401-0.3.0.html ogechukwukamma

  151. ogechukwukamma

    also was there a general CVE issued for the stanza limit issue?

  152. ogechukwukamma

    (writing my manifesto)

  153. ogechukwukamma

    ty menel

  154. Menel

    Wait that wasn't right

  155. MattJ

    ogechukwukamma, there are a few specs involved: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/invites/

  156. MattJ

    Polarian, I have lots and also not a lot (because I am not a lawyer and cannot and will not give you legal advice) to say on this. But my observation is that the data protection fee was a weird kind of attempt at taxing the companies that "process" data in the negative way, and then they realised the term is so vague it can be broadened as much as they want, and that suits them because it means more £££. In fact, they are so vague, that you could argue that practically every company that exists should be paying the fee, but the reality is that they aren't. If you look at what the ICO takes action against, they are pretty much all involved in unsolicited marketing or gathering sensitive PII.

  157. MattJ

    Polarian, as for me. Personally I only run services for personal activities which are exempt. And Snikket is covered by the not-for-profit exemption.

  158. Polarian


  159. Holger

    As Dave mentioned in some recent (standards@?) email, technical people probably tend to misinterpret law as a set of unambiguous, hard rules, whereas in reality, they're more of a guideline interpreted by legal people for justifying actual decisions.

  160. ogechukwukamma

    2025 Safeguarding XMPP Manifesto [DRAFT]: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/eRo0b02U/raw comments welcome

  161. f_

    jonas’: offtopic, but is `jjsfr` on #xmpp you?

  162. f_

    jonas’: offtopic, but is `jssfr` on #xmpp you?

  163. f_

    Polarian: I believe joinjabber is where newbies should ask questions on

  164. roughnecks

    what's going on here? https://jabberx.com/ - https://jabberx.net/ - https://www.jabberx.io/ - https://www.jabber.it/

  165. roughnecks

    there's probably more

  166. Menel

    Some unmaintained something

  167. roughnecks

    a whole network, it seems. And the last one?

  168. roughnecks

    also, I don't understand why someone took xmpp.it and they are using it in English

  169. roughnecks

    always parte of jabberx network

  170. roughnecks

    always part of jabberx network

  171. Menel

    Said it's secure - - no valid certs, Said it is in Germany - - no Impressum.. So well. I guess someone was exited for a year, registered a bunch of domains, and then dropped it.

  172. roughnecks


  173. moparisthebest

    Menel: what's Impressum

  174. Menel

    Something German. Let me Google it for you 😉, "Legal Disclosure", a note at the front page, generally at the Footer with contact information, and information who is responsible for the service.

  175. Menel

    And who can't be "we're a group of people liking privacy" 🙂

  176. Menel

    Like what https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 has under "meta" at the bottom