XMPP Service Operators - 2024-05-02

I saw yesterday there's an #xmpp channel on libera :P

Not documented anywhere, is it? Or is it unofficial?

f_: dog food, c'mon

f_: it's semiofficial, but not official :)

There has always been one, it was called #(#)jabber back in the day, and protocol discussions began there (XMPP didn't have group chats from day 1)

> f_: dog food, c'mon dog food? ↺

Polarian: ~google~search for the term

Polarian: using your own tech in order to make it better

how would using IRC be dogfooding though?

To taste it, for better or worse, then improve the recipe

Polarian: that's the point, it isn't... you should not.

...not use IRC when XMPP allows you to have these here.

> Polarian: that's the point, it isn't... you should not. but you said that to funderscore? ↺

We're lost in translation? :)

Licaon_Kter, please don't just say "google that", explain terms you use which people don't understand.

jonas’: too late now, already explained

Licaon_Kter, so you said to funderscore its for dogfooding when IRC has nothign to do with it?

funder?!

funderscore == f_ ✏

?

f_ full username is funderscore

Aaaa, right, we were lost indeed :))

MattJ: heh ok :)

Licaon_Kter: Ah yes, dogfooding :)

Licaon_Kter, sure, but for the next time. ✏

jonas’: you know me, it will be worse :shrug:

🤣

Licaon_Kter, bannable offense?

I hope

do you?

help I just ate a whole bowl of dog food but afterwards there are still xmpp servers not supporting tls1.3 :(

lol

> help I just ate a whole bowl of dog food but afterwards there are still xmpp servers not supporting tls1.3 > :( What? How does dog food have anything to do with TLS 1.3?!?!? ↺

but actually if the admins are here or someone can ping them: quicksy.im, jabber.calyxinstitute.org, lu.net.eu.org

jabber.calyxinstitute.org is not going to get fixed

They declared years ago they don't care about that service, it's running ancient software which likely has security bugs

why don't they shut it down?

since when did MattJ have an avatar?

or did it change?

avatars in xmpp are like blue moons sometimes they appear and bring luck to people who see them. then they dissapear until next time

slightly joking. couldnt see the avatar until today too

also cant see an avatar from another group chat even though they set it

:D

I was under the impression that the avatar flakiness was mostly solved, but as I learned the other day, it is very much not.

yeah idk at what level or xep it is but its not

jonas’, do you have one?

not here, no

Openfire is yet to support MUCs for avatar 🙂

i mean maybe they do and you see it someday :P

so I don't

lets keep the mystery

MSavoritias (fae,ve), I used to have one which wasn't quite suitable for work, and of course some matrix gateway I used for work latched onto it and shows it to this day, despite me unpublishing it years ago.

ah yeah of course

In my case it's because I don't use any clients that support avatars

But it reappears briefly when I restart my client (which is, indee, once in a blue moon)

you use profanity?

MattJ, you need to run an idle aioxmpp client with the avatar module loaded just to make sure you get your vcard presence broadcast :)

Polarian: poezio

And yaxim on my phone

weird choice

reasons?

If it ain't broken don't fix it

best of reasons

Licaon_Kter, now that I'm back on my private machine: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#welcome ; throwing "google that" at people is not what I'd define as welcoming, nor is it something I would consider "friendly and supportive".

MattJ: poezio does support avatars IIRC?

Somehow, but not in mine. Might need a plugin.

jonas’: Y U can't into jokes?

Licaon_Kter, I don't see the joke in "search for the term"

When I wanted to learn more about xmpp I joined #xmpp on libera and asked around. The channel is dead of course, but it's hard to join xmpp when you don't really understand much about it and you are already on IRC

> Licaon_Kter, I don't see the joke in "search for the term" I get told this a lot... ↺

Then again I never know when people are joking or not, so I take everything seriously 🙂

> When I wanted to learn more about xmpp I joined #xmpp on libera and asked around. The channel is dead of course, but it's hard to join xmpp when you don't really understand much about it and you are already on IRC IRC isn't the main place to ask... https://xmpp.org has a lot of useful information to find server/clients and joining XMPP channels is a good way to ask about too ↺

Maybe there should be a XSF chatroom just for users? like a Q/A style room? currently I do not see one (https://xmpp.org/community/chat/)

Licaon_Kter, a general observation: jokes don't carry well over the internet/text chat compared to in-person communication. Second observation: you make a lot of jokes :) Even though I get most of them, it doesn't surprise me that some people don't. Then they just feel confused.

luca, I doubt anyone would mind asking here?

But it's awfully accessible when you don't know XMPP and know IRC. So IMO the libera channel is great to have

XSF doesn't have people paid to sit in an IRC channel all day...

and a lot of the times it depends on context with jokes

There are some QA rooms, that are not hosted on xmpp.org. Like joinjabber

yep. https://joinjabber.org

luca, also a lot of people object to using anything other than XMPP, some people here refuse to use email even...

no account needed to chat

I don't think joinjabber is a good idea...

Polarian, nobody paid me, but I did hang out in #xmpp. I'm currently off all IRC channels due to the unnecessary distraction though.

Hopefully some folk are still there to point people in the right direction when they need it

Polarian, it solves the problem of learning about xmpp without being on xmpp :)

MattJ, what I meant is "you can't expect people to freely give their time, nobody is paid" ✏

MattJ, I'm now :)

MSavoritias (fae,ve), but their CoC is extreme

Great :)

Polarian, i mean if you just browse the site and ask questions im sure nobody minds

Sorry, I definetely didn't want xmpp support on IRC or anything. Just friendly chat protocol war mostly :P

> Polarian, i mean if you just browse the site and ask questions im sure nobody minds true... but I thought you were referencing their channels ↺

> /me wonders what you need to do to get into trouble with the JJ-CoC when all you want is some XMPP/Jabber support. Its too extreme... to the point of being unwelcoming ↺

instead of banning all politics, they only ban right wing politics... things like this are open to abuse...

anyways I think they are cool for helping getting people in, but I definitely feel they are too extreme to be the standard for welcoming people

I do have a question... why is there no XSF channel like welcome@xmpp.org

wouldn't it be an amazing idea?

sorry welcome@muc.xmpp.org

The equivalent used to be jabber@conference.jabber.org

That was for users, and then jdev@conference.jabber.org was for developers

didn't that channel shut down?

It still exists

But now it's mostly for talking about jabber.org

luca, anyways point is... I doubt anyone cares if you ask questions here... and server operators are likely to be very knowledgable too

Polarian, I do care somewhat, in fact. I'm trying to get this channel back on track to avoid having to take more drastic measures, which means also cutting down the off-topic a little.

so general XMPP questions don't belong here.

^ its for server operators

(also, a normal user won't even get the possibility to speak here due to the new membership rules)

oh...

right I forgot about that...

so what is the standard channel for users these days then?

the joinjabber channels are good :-)

damn.

I guess they win due to lack of a better alternative then...

You're welcome to set up your own user-focused Jabber/XMPP promotion group :)

The XSF generally focuses on developers, which is why there isn't somewhere for user support

MattJ, that would require GDPR, which means ICO registration

wait MattJ aren't you the one who said you run servers in the UK?

_If so I have questions_

I've seen your questions on the mailing list :)

and?

thoughts?

IANAL

I did email the ICO to have their take (I have a relative in IT, and they said ICO is very open to discussing it, just shoot them an email), but I haven't heard back, hence why I didn't continue the thread on the ML right now

I think a lot of the answers to your questions are "we don't know"

you are registered I assume?

theres no way you are not

Anyways its a good thing to think about at least... and if I can get a response back from the ICO I will post their feedback to the ML in case it helps others... but I guess for now I got to play the waiting game.

Polarian, no, not registered

jj doesnt do anything specific for gdpr btw

(periodic reminder that this channel is publicly logged)

MattJ, but you store data on people...

you provide a service...

I thought your entire thing was providing managed hosting for others?

> (periodic reminder that this channel is publicly logged) Point? ↺

mailing list archives are 100x more useful than jabber archives... at least imo

also regarding hosting and such https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2024/04/30/surveillance-and-hadopi-eu-court-buries-online-anonymity-a-little-further/ > Whereas in 2020, the CJEU considered that the retention of IP addresses constituted a serious interference with fundamental rights and that they could only be accessed, together with the civil identity of the Internet user, for the purpose of fighting serious crime or safeguarding national security, this is no longer true. The CJEU has reversed its reasoning: it now considers that the retention of IP addresses is, by default, no longer a serious interference with fundamental rights, and that it is only in certain cases that such access constitutes a serious interference that must be safeguarded with appropriate protection measures.

> jj doesnt do anything specific for gdpr btw not jj... I am talking more about MUCs on my server ↺

to start a MUC on my server I will be storing data on behalf of someone else... and providing a service

this _could_ remove the residential exemption and thus mean I am GDPR liable... and anyone who is liable to UK GDPR must pay the ICO fee...

failure to pay the fee carries a hefty fine... hence why I am worried about it

currently I am working on the premise they are too busy to come after some random guy who likes to self host...

also MSavoritias (fae,ve) although EU GDPR and UK GDPR are almost identical, they are enforced by different authorities...

is there an xep for the invitation mechanism of snikket/prosody?

See https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0401-0.3.0.html ogechukwukamma

also was there a general CVE issued for the stanza limit issue?

(writing my manifesto)

ty menel

Wait that wasn't right

ogechukwukamma, there are a few specs involved: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/invites/

Polarian, I have lots and also not a lot (because I am not a lawyer and cannot and will not give you legal advice) to say on this. But my observation is that the data protection fee was a weird kind of attempt at taxing the companies that "process" data in the negative way, and then they realised the term is so vague it can be broadened as much as they want, and that suits them because it means more £££. In fact, they are so vague, that you could argue that practically every company that exists should be paying the fee, but the reality is that they aren't. If you look at what the ICO takes action against, they are pretty much all involved in unsolicited marketing or gathering sensitive PII.

Polarian, as for me. Personally I only run services for personal activities which are exempt. And Snikket is covered by the not-for-profit exemption.

hmmm

As Dave mentioned in some recent (standards@?) email, technical people probably tend to misinterpret law as a set of unambiguous, hard rules, whereas in reality, they're more of a guideline interpreted by legal people for justifying actual decisions.

2025 Safeguarding XMPP Manifesto [DRAFT]: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/eRo0b02U/raw comments welcome

jonas’: offtopic, but is `jssfr` on #xmpp you? ✏

Polarian: I believe joinjabber is where newbies should ask questions on

what's going on here? https://jabberx.com/ - https://jabberx.net/ - https://www.jabberx.io/ - https://www.jabber.it/

there's probably more

Some unmaintained something

a whole network, it seems. And the last one?

also, I don't understand why someone took xmpp.it and they are using it in English

always part of jabberx network ✏

Said it's secure - - no valid certs, Said it is in Germany - - no Impressum.. So well. I guess someone was exited for a year, registered a bunch of domains, and then dropped it.

🤦‍♂️️

Menel: what's Impressum

Something German. Let me Google it for you 😉, "Legal Disclosure", a note at the front page, generally at the Footer with contact information, and information who is responsible for the service.

And who can't be "we're a group of people liking privacy" 🙂

Like what https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 has under "meta" at the bottom