XMPP Service Operators - 2024-06-27

  1. nuegia.net

    i wish more development was focused on improving clients

  2. nuegia.net

    not for smartphones

  3. Polarian

    nuegia.net, what do you mean?

  4. nuegia.net

    there's a lot of development in making good servers for xmpp

  5. nuegia.net

    xmpp client on the desktop sucks

  6. nuegia.net

    web based xmpp clients are better quality then the current offerings of xmpp clients

  7. Polarian

    not exactly, desktop clients work well... their UX might not be up to huge company product standards but... its still usable

  8. Polarian

    anyways this is offtopic

  9. nuegia.net

    the closest we got is smartphone uis copied and pasted into linux

  10. Polarian

    But if you don't like it, instead of moaning... maybe you should help write clients?

  11. nuegia.net

    there used to be swift but their git repo hasn't been updated in years

  12. worlio.com

    You expect everyone who has issues with XMPP to be a programmer?

  13. nuegia.net

    it won't compile anymore on a modern unix distro

  14. nuegia.net

    even if it did it doesn't implement some important xeps like mam or http upload

  15. worlio.com

    I would argue the topic of desktop clients is relevant. What are we as service operators supposed to be recommending? None of the desktop offerings are any good.

  16. nuegia.net

    speaking of, we got lots of great server implementations of xeps but barely but a few clients even properly implement them

  17. nuegia.net

    I don't know what to reccomend anymore

  18. nuegia.net

    so i don't

  19. worlio.com

    I have a table with a few clients listed on my XMPP page but it doesn't help much.

  20. Polarian

    > You expect everyone who has issues with XMPP to be a programmer? No but I don't believe in complaining and hoping for people to come along and do it for you, heres some suggestions (and then lets drop it as its off topic): 1. Learn to code, or if you already know how to code, submit some patches 2. Improve the documentation, and give feedback to client developers on things you find awkward 3. Donate money towards client developers 4. Use another protocol.

  21. nuegia.net

    worlio.com, it's a common passive aggressive tactic here to complain something is 'offtopic'

  22. nuegia.net

    worlio.com, can you link it?

  23. nuegia.net

    Polarian, you are mistaken about the actual state of xmpp clients and their developers

  24. worlio.com

    » [21:25:26] <Polarian> No but I don't believe in complaining and hoping for people to come along and do it for you Critisizing the current XMPP client space is not simply "complaining". It is a genuine critique of the current offerings (or lack thereof). The XMPP desktop client space is absolutely atrocious and it is no wonder the garbage protocol Matrix actually gets users.

  25. nuegia.net

    1, even if i submitted code it wouldn't be accepted because the organizations behind some projects have an agenda to push and fixing these problems doesn't align with it (gnome foundation projects)

  26. worlio.com

    » [21:25:45] <nuegia.net> worlio.com, can you link it? It's just a small table with very basic feature columns and a few clients I know of to suggest on my servers page. https://xmpp.worlio.com/

  27. nuegia.net

    2, developers of alernative clients are facing burnout. money isn't going to fix the problem. if it did someone would have claimed the bug bounty on mam for psi+ by now

  28. nuegia.net

    also the petty international sanctions haven't done xmpp clients any favors. especially when their development is hosted by american big tech

  29. Polarian

    > Polarian, you are mistaken about the actual state of xmpp clients and their developers The developers barely earn enough to cover their electricity fees to write said code, let alone make it worth their time... so unless you want to help out, or donate... then you can't complain about the quality of clients if you do nothing to help.

  30. nuegia.net

    if somebody tries to claim that bug bounty and their not from a county the US likes who's to say they'd actually get that bounty?

  31. Polarian

    This is offtopic I am bailing...

  32. nuegia.net


  33. worlio.com

    As you always do.

  34. nuegia.net

    worlio.com, there should be in the notes for monal-im a big gotcha that notifications and ability to recieve messages while not in the app is broken because apple won't let you leave TCP sockets open

  35. nuegia.net

    on apple products

  36. worlio.com

    Works fine enough for one of my users.

  37. nuegia.net


  38. nuegia.net

    looking at that list it really seems like omemo killed a lot of clients

  39. nuegia.net

    projects who couldn't keep up with it just gave up i guess

  40. nuegia.net

    and only one client for linux and unix that's not gtk based

  41. Polarian

    worlio.com, your list for gajim is wrong, although calls are implemented it doesn't work with other clients due to no e2ee iirc this it should be ~ and be noted that calls only work gajim <--> gajim

  42. praskovia

    this room is on a loop stop complaining and be the change

  43. nuegia.net

    pidgin can't call conversations either because they reject non-ecnrypted

  44. worlio.com

    Polarian: Worked fine when I tested.

  45. worlio.com

    Which is why it is checked.

  46. nuegia.net

    when did you check?

  47. worlio.com

    Sometime in March.

  48. Guus

    Fwiw (and as one of the Devs of a desktop client that is severely lacking), I'm with Polarian on this one.

  49. jonas’

    nuegia.net, worlio.com, discussing client quality is off-topic and that'll be enforced if this discussion continues.

  50. jonas’

    you have been informed several times by another occupant, hence this is the last warning in that regard.

  51. worlio.com

    When have I been informed "several times"? Warn me, but warn me correctly.

  52. jonas’

    02:23:46 Polarian> anyways this is offtopic […] 02:26:54 Polarian> […] and then lets drop it as its off topic […] 02:30:52 Polarian> This is offtopic I am bailing...

  53. worlio.com

    All I'm seeing is all the times Polarian has complained.

  54. worlio.com

    Then what MUC should the topic be appropriate for?

  55. jonas’

    I do not know (nor is it this room's MUC's job to help you find it)

  56. worlio.com

    It's not like I'm asking how to fix a car here.

  57. nuegia.net

    selective and arbitrary enforcement jonas’

  58. nuegia.net

    don't appreciate it.

  59. jonas’

    I'm not going to comment on that.

  60. worlio.com

    I find it strange that the complaining from another user (not a mod) is sufficient for a mods warning.

  61. jonas’

    well it's not, which is why I put another (last) warning instead of swinging the banhammer right away.

  62. worlio.com

    Gee, thanks.

  63. worlio.com

    I wonder how many warnings I'd get if it was done correctly.

  64. Guus

    If anything, I find jonas’ to be consistent when moderating. It might be on the tight side of things, but it's generally undeviating from earlier approaches.

  65. mike

    Speaking as a service operator who's here in the Service Operators room to be aware of things that might be related to operating my services, I'm definitely thinking that maybe there could be a better place to discuss client software development.

  66. worlio.com

    Speaking as a service operator who's here in the XMPP Service Operators room to discuss and inform of topics corning that of a service operator and their service, the topic of clients is very relevant as what clients are we going to recommend our users for the best compatibility and stability? If it isn't considered relevant to this MUC, than it is close enough in topic that a suggestion of where to go should atleast be established, since this isn't a one-time issue.

  67. worlio.com

    » [01:04:28] <Guus> If anything, I find jonas’ to be consistent when moderating. It might be on the tight side of things, but it's generally undeviating from earlier approaches. No, jonas' is not being consistent. My first warning on something and I'm already only a step away from a ban, on something not worthy of such a harsh warn. Anybody else and they'll get a few warnings. All I did was discuss an "off-topic" subject.

  68. Menel

    worlio.com: https://xmpp.org/community/channels/operators/#on-topicness There is xmpp:modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org?join xmpp:chat@joinjabber.org?join And if you're German speaking some other general xmpp rooms if you just want to relieve your heart about the sad state of clients in general. For actual client issues every client has a support room you'll find at https://search.jabber.network

  69. Mr. Barks-a-lot

    The very first sentence: "The channel started out as a place for operators to work together to improve the general health of the XMPP network" The availability of user-friendly clients is relevant to the health of the XMPP network, no?

  70. worlio.com

    Menel: Thank you.

  71. Menel

    Mr. Barks-a-lot: yes, and then read further and the examples. Otherwise this channel would be for about just everything. And as you see many don't like that. And there are so many channels... Why put everything in an operators channel where only operators have voice