XMPP Service Operators - 2024-06-27

i wish more development was focused on improving clients

not for smartphones

nuegia.net, what do you mean?

there's a lot of development in making good servers for xmpp

xmpp client on the desktop sucks

web based xmpp clients are better quality then the current offerings of xmpp clients

not exactly, desktop clients work well... their UX might not be up to huge company product standards but... its still usable

anyways this is offtopic

the closest we got is smartphone uis copied and pasted into linux

But if you don't like it, instead of moaning... maybe you should help write clients?

there used to be swift but their git repo hasn't been updated in years

You expect everyone who has issues with XMPP to be a programmer?

it won't compile anymore on a modern unix distro

even if it did it doesn't implement some important xeps like mam or http upload

I would argue the topic of desktop clients is relevant. What are we as service operators supposed to be recommending? None of the desktop offerings are any good.

speaking of, we got lots of great server implementations of xeps but barely but a few clients even properly implement them

I don't know what to reccomend anymore

so i don't

I have a table with a few clients listed on my XMPP page but it doesn't help much.

> You expect everyone who has issues with XMPP to be a programmer? No but I don't believe in complaining and hoping for people to come along and do it for you, heres some suggestions (and then lets drop it as its off topic): 1. Learn to code, or if you already know how to code, submit some patches 2. Improve the documentation, and give feedback to client developers on things you find awkward 3. Donate money towards client developers 4. Use another protocol. ↺

worlio.com, it's a common passive aggressive tactic here to complain something is 'offtopic'

worlio.com, can you link it?

Polarian, you are mistaken about the actual state of xmpp clients and their developers

» [21:25:26] <Polarian> No but I don't believe in complaining and hoping for people to come along and do it for you Critisizing the current XMPP client space is not simply "complaining". It is a genuine critique of the current offerings (or lack thereof). The XMPP desktop client space is absolutely atrocious and it is no wonder the garbage protocol Matrix actually gets users.

1, even if i submitted code it wouldn't be accepted because the organizations behind some projects have an agenda to push and fixing these problems doesn't align with it (gnome foundation projects)

» [21:25:45] <nuegia.net> worlio.com, can you link it? It's just a small table with very basic feature columns and a few clients I know of to suggest on my servers page. https://xmpp.worlio.com/

2, developers of alernative clients are facing burnout. money isn't going to fix the problem. if it did someone would have claimed the bug bounty on mam for psi+ by now

also the petty international sanctions haven't done xmpp clients any favors. especially when their development is hosted by american big tech

> Polarian, you are mistaken about the actual state of xmpp clients and their developers The developers barely earn enough to cover their electricity fees to write said code, let alone make it worth their time... so unless you want to help out, or donate... then you can't complain about the quality of clients if you do nothing to help. ↺

if somebody tries to claim that bug bounty and their not from a county the US likes who's to say they'd actually get that bounty?

This is offtopic I am bailing...

ok

As you always do.

worlio.com, there should be in the notes for monal-im a big gotcha that notifications and ability to recieve messages while not in the app is broken because apple won't let you leave TCP sockets open

on apple products

Works fine enough for one of my users.

wow

looking at that list it really seems like omemo killed a lot of clients

projects who couldn't keep up with it just gave up i guess

and only one client for linux and unix that's not gtk based

worlio.com, your list for gajim is wrong, although calls are implemented it doesn't work with other clients due to no e2ee iirc this it should be ~ and be noted that calls only work gajim <--> gajim

this room is on a loop stop complaining and be the change

pidgin can't call conversations either because they reject non-ecnrypted

Polarian: Worked fine when I tested.

Which is why it is checked.

when did you check?

Sometime in March.

Fwiw (and as one of the Devs of a desktop client that is severely lacking), I'm with Polarian on this one.

nuegia.net, worlio.com, discussing client quality is off-topic and that'll be enforced if this discussion continues.

you have been informed several times by another occupant, hence this is the last warning in that regard.

When have I been informed "several times"? Warn me, but warn me correctly.

02:23:46 Polarian> anyways this is offtopic […] 02:26:54 Polarian> […] and then lets drop it as its off topic […] 02:30:52 Polarian> This is offtopic I am bailing...

All I'm seeing is all the times Polarian has complained.

Then what MUC should the topic be appropriate for?

I do not know (nor is it this room's MUC's job to help you find it)

It's not like I'm asking how to fix a car here.

selective and arbitrary enforcement jonas’

don't appreciate it.

I'm not going to comment on that.

I find it strange that the complaining from another user (not a mod) is sufficient for a mods warning.

well it's not, which is why I put another (last) warning instead of swinging the banhammer right away.

Gee, thanks.

I wonder how many warnings I'd get if it was done correctly.

If anything, I find jonas’ to be consistent when moderating. It might be on the tight side of things, but it's generally undeviating from earlier approaches.

Speaking as a service operator who's here in the Service Operators room to be aware of things that might be related to operating my services, I'm definitely thinking that maybe there could be a better place to discuss client software development.

Speaking as a service operator who's here in the XMPP Service Operators room to discuss and inform of topics corning that of a service operator and their service, the topic of clients is very relevant as what clients are we going to recommend our users for the best compatibility and stability? If it isn't considered relevant to this MUC, than it is close enough in topic that a suggestion of where to go should atleast be established, since this isn't a one-time issue.

» [01:04:28] <Guus> If anything, I find jonas’ to be consistent when moderating. It might be on the tight side of things, but it's generally undeviating from earlier approaches. No, jonas' is not being consistent. My first warning on something and I'm already only a step away from a ban, on something not worthy of such a harsh warn. Anybody else and they'll get a few warnings. All I did was discuss an "off-topic" subject.

worlio.com: https://xmpp.org/community/channels/operators/#on-topicness There is xmpp:modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org?join xmpp:chat@joinjabber.org?join And if you're German speaking some other general xmpp rooms if you just want to relieve your heart about the sad state of clients in general. For actual client issues every client has a support room you'll find at https://search.jabber.network

The very first sentence: "The channel started out as a place for operators to work together to improve the general health of the XMPP network" The availability of user-friendly clients is relevant to the health of the XMPP network, no?

Menel: Thank you.

Mr. Barks-a-lot: yes, and then read further and the examples. Otherwise this channel would be for about just everything. And as you see many don't like that. And there are so many channels... Why put everything in an operators channel where only operators have voice