XMPP Service Operators - 2026-06-07

> i wish mod_muc_limits had a per participant setting If you know lua you could patch it? ↺

ive not looked at the code, nor am i particularly familiar with the prosody module system at all

> ive not looked at the code, nor am i particularly familiar with the prosody module system at all nor am I ↺

~you could maybe ask in the prosody MUC?~

eh its not high enough priority to actually try to figure it out (ive not even looked into it) and im not going to like beg someone else to implement it

for most people that dont have a half built bridge, its probably just suitable to put the muc into moderated mode

I made the post to the mailing list about an online meetup for operators, please read and reply when you have time! https://mail.jabber.org/hyperkitty/list/operators@xmpp.org/message/5JKPHJYVBLGLRBHKGSVMRFRVLHHGVSIT/

goodnight folks!

mightyBroccoli, bibi300@magicbroccoli.de

https://downloadable.pain.agency/file_share/019ea134-d476-7862-9056-cbb4b1f115c0/Screenshot_20260606_222949.png

Has anyone managed to reach xmpp.earth

I have had numerous reports about issues with MUCs not being possible to join from other servers

connection failures

We have the same issue with beings from there connecting to queer spark. I tried to reach out a while back with no success. They seem to be running an older trunk build of prosody, last I checked

> We have the same issue with beings from there connecting to queer spark. I tried to reach out a while back with no success. They seem to be running an older trunk build of prosody, last I checked I tried reaching them too, impossible.. I think I tried in the past ↺

messaging earthling, and afaik they are the contact address too

Quite frankly it seems helpless... conversations.im is listed as D tier and yet is one of the only servers I know for sure works, but clients like Gajim wont list it because providers lists it as D. So people use A tier, when I have had non-stop issues with 07f.de but its the default due to the 0 in the name (listed by name in descending order 0 is the top)

> I made the post to the mailing list about an online meetup for operators, please read and reply when you have time! > > https://mail.jabber.org/hyperkitty/list/operators@xmpp.org/message/5JKPHJYVBLGLRBHKGSVMRFRVLHHGVSIT/ Lilith [queer-spark.org], did you take a look at this? You might be interested. ↺

icebound.dev, there are so many more servers than conversations.im and 07f.de.

> icebound.dev, there are so many more servers than conversations.im and 07f.de. yeah I know, but not ones I have really tested, the issue with being an operator is you rarely actually test servers which aren't your own, so you don't quite see how bad some of the providers are until your users complain that they cant speak to their friend on x provider, and you go down the rabbit hole... ↺

I know yax.im is rock solid, I have used it to host a few mucs I used in examples at conferences

Link Mauve, iirc you run jabber.fr?

Yes, we do.

ah. I got my facts right.

And we try to get it maintained correctly, even if there can be issues such as that one time we mistakenly upgraded to the untested Lua 5.5.

we thank you for your service in testing though :)

Testing in production!

once I get through some of my backlog, I will see if I can help out providers

I did test in production on my personal server before, but only found a few bugs which I then fixed.

i can s2s to xmpp.earth

> i can s2s to xmpp.earth its their MUC service which is being reported doesn't work properly ↺

i can join channels there without issues

Same on my server, but someone on yax.im said they couldn't...

If its only one, it's likely a user error. If it's more then one of the affected servers should look at their logs

Currently I can't connect to magicbroccoli.de I see no maintainance on their website. ✏

I can only connect to magicbroccoli.de because I have dialback enabled. This is already quite a while. I think they are running an older version of ejabberd.

Hm. I still use the old client certs. It's not the letsencrypt change that's the issue but something else then.

I am pretty sure that it is my problem (certificates) because I see it in the prosody logs 🤷

hmmm, maybe the whole dialback thing is the issue with so many people reporting connection failures right now

I have heard this is a major problem

I can't comment on it, but from those I have onboarded or seen me speak, they say its common

I think the servers running Prosody without having dialback enabled, are not able to connect to magicbroccoli.de, at least I tested it with 2 different Prosody instances.

> I think the servers running Prosody without having dialback enabled, are not able to connect to magicbroccoli.de, at least I tested it with 2 different Prosody instances. Dialback is a 25-year-old protocol that does not provide strong authentication. It's vulnerable to DNS poisoning, it doesn't support DNSSEC so its use of DNS records is insecure and it has weak identity verification. Because the promise of XMPP is security and privacy for the most vulnerable, I don't have dialback enabled on my Prosody server. ↺

Many servers do not support dialback

magicbroccoli was upgraded like yesterday or the day before.. magicbroccoli.de is running ejabberd version 26.04.12-magicbroccoli.de on unix/linux 6.1.0

I do not support dial back since about 5 years now. So I doubt that’s considered news at this point

I've stayed connected to magicbroccli this whole time despite having dialback disabled and new LE certs the older/broken ejabberd's didn't accept, so I think if you couldn't s2s with it you had a different problem I did have the cert problem with hmm.st for awhile but that's now upgraded/fixed too

> Quite frankly it seems helpless... conversations.im is listed as D tier and yet is one of the only servers I know for sure works, but clients like Gajim wont list it because providers lists it as D. > > So people use A tier, when I have had non-stop issues with 07f.de but its the default due to the 0 in the name (listed by name in descending order 0 is the top) FWIW, the D listing is due to us not adhering to their requirements to publish certain info on a web site, and them ignoring our requests to just not list us at all (or at least to refrain from publishing some bad score with the reasoning of having no basis to publish some score).

I'm not super happy with that public shaming of our service happening on an xmpp.org subdomain but have no idea what to do about it. Talked to the operators several times, over years, but obviously failed to convince them to just de-list us.

hm. It seems I can connect to magicbroccoli.de but then it closes immediately. Session s2sout55a48a5aebb0 (snikket.de-->magicbroccoli.de) connected (0.00739288s) Session s2sout55a48a5aebb0 (snikket.de<->magicbroccoli.de) authenticated (0.0612569s) Error: error<wait:remote-server-timeout:Server-to-server connection failed: unexpected eof while reading>

Maybe some new or old bidi incompatibility

I did not change the config one bit from before the version upgrade to 26.04. There was a bidi issue in the past which lead me to disable it but that’s somewhere in the 25.x range of ejabberd versions. What I could do is disable it again.

Menel, can you retry please?

now it works mightyBroccoli

but I doubt that its bidi directly due to no real change since jan of last year ```plain 5f94b5252 2026-01-05 Metalhearf Update copyright year to 2026 133d52d04 2025-01-22 Paweł Chmielowski Stop processing other handlers in mod_s2s_bidi:s2s_in_handle_info 8ebbb45a1 2025-01-03 Badlop Update copyright year to 2025 (#4139) ```

speaking of :D

I will just keep bidi off again :D and maybe try again in a year :D just like last time :D

Holger, you are one of the admins of conversations.im?

Providers is not on xmpp.org, its on xmpp.net, also providers is developed by non-operators, so it makes sense there is a good distinction between the wishes of operators and the providers. I seek to improve this, I just have limited time currently.

and I am going to point out the elephant in the room, there is always the lack of funding.

Also i am not so happy about some of the providers policies, such as for-profit providers are prohibited from being A tier...

> I'm not super happy with that public shaming of our service happening on an xmpp.org subdomain but have no idea what to do about it. Talked to the operators several times, over years, but obviously failed to convince them to just de-list us. that is indeed concerning. thank you for raising this issue of being hard to revoke participation. I don't think I wanna be on those providers list if that's the case ↺

I know many people here will be uneasy about it, but I do feel for-profit providers are needed to provide a higher level of service and grow XMPP from what is right now a vast number of hobby providers, to a list of actual professional grade providers, which is lacking IMO.

conversations.im, monocles.eu, yax.im all are at the same level

but in the case of conversations and monocles, profit through their parent app

> that is indeed concerning. thank you for raising this issue of being hard to revoke participation. I don't think I wanna be on those providers list if that's the case I do think this would be a very interesting topic to discuss for the first online meeting for operators ↺

for those who haven't yet read it, please read: https://mail.jabber.org/hyperkitty/list/operators@xmpp.org/message/5JKPHJYVBLGLRBHKGSVMRFRVLHHGVSIT/

and if you havent subscribed to the mailing list I strongly advice you do, many things get lost within this channel, we should really try posting more to the mailing list for discussions which have a longer nature, for example, the discussion on dailback would be a good topic to discuss on a mailing list.

> conversations.im, monocles.eu, yax.im all are at the same level by same level I mean a "professional" level ↺

conversations.im used to charge a (yearly?) fee fwiw

> for those who haven't read [the mailing list message] It made its way into my spam 😭

icebound.dev: Yes I meant xmpp.net, not xmpp.org, sorry about that

> conversations.im used to charge a (yearly?) fee fwiw Yes. These days conversations.im accounts are free, those are cross-financed by hosted domains. But that's unrelated to xmpp.net (they don't discourage commercial incentives).

And don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against the Providers project. Just against giving negative scores based on missing info, and against refusing to take down listings on explicit request.

yea that's pretty crappy

> conversations.im used to charge a (yearly?) fee fwiw I know :) ↺

> > for those who haven't read [the mailing list message] > It made its way into my spam 😭 the lesser mike, what email provider? ✏ ↺

please DM me (admin@icebound.dev) the headers of the email, thx

> And don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against the Providers project. Just against giving negative scores based on missing info, and against refusing to take down listings on explicit request. Holger, to confirm, you want conversations *REMOVED* from providers? ↺

Yes.

will relay, thx

> the lesser mike, what email provider? oh you know, only the "greatest" email provider on the planet, Google! /s I'll dm you them, but the real problem here is my continued dependence on them and, that I have not set up a mail server for myself yet. ↺

icebound.dev: thanks, happy with me, just be aware that both operators are aware of our wish, I meet one of them regularly at our Berlin meetup 🙂 Just failed to convince him nervertheless.

> icebound.dev: thanks, happy with me, just be aware that both operators are aware of our wish, I meet one of them regularly at our Berlin meetup 🙂 Just failed to convince him nervertheless. welp I am offering my help, if they are going to be wankers, then I will fork them. ↺

thanks for the info :)

I'd like to be delisted but that's not worth a fork, in my book.

I believe they are XSF members too, which is a little disapponting

> I'd like to be delisted but that's not worth a fork, in my book. There is many failures that providers are yet to fix, like I explained, A tier providers where admins cant be contacted, and the server is dysfunctional... I have lost so many people I onboarded and made a fool of myself because I trusted providers to be accurate. ↺

I'd still opt for offering help in preference of forking. I'm convinced of their good will, I think addressing my issue fails due to a mixture of missing manpower (that would be required to implement automatic discovery of limits and such) and preferences different of mine (personally I'd delist any service on request, no matter what, but they do have reasonings to ignore me, even if I disagree).

If they reject your help, you could still fork.

But in the end it's your decision, obviously.

> I'd still opt for offering help in preference of forking. I have offerred, I haven't been refused, but I don't currently have the time. I wanted to help out, and I was considering coming to the Berlin sprint, but I just can't find the money right now, I haven't got a full time job, and freelancing has dried up :/ > I'm convinced of their good will, I think addressing my issue fails due to a mixture of missing manpower Yeah this is a big issue, which is why I want to donate some time when I am free to help out, providers is blocking my outreach ability right now, the other blocker is having no UK provider which is what I am also working on. > preferences different of mine (personally I'd delist any service on request, no matter what, but they do have reasonings to ignore me, even if I disagree). This is another concern, nobody should be listed if they do not wish to, it should always be voluntary. > If they reject your help, you could still fork. I am personally uneasy about their ratings, I don't think they are fair. A good for-profit host will be penalised for pulling a profit, and a bad non-profit rewarded for implementing compliance, but being unsustainable. This has always sat poorly with me, and discussions previously within the providers channel, has yielded no progress on this concern.

> But in the end it's your decision, obviously. Honeslty I don't know if I have the time. ↺

icebound.dev: To be fair I'm not aware of a penalty for being for-profit. The conflict has been about whether we should feel obligated to mention limits on our web site for them to be able to reference that web site.

welcome Ilias OpenIM,

glad you got it working!

> icebound.dev: To be fair I'm not aware of a penalty for being for-profit. The conflict has been about whether we should feel obligated to mention limits on our web site for them to be able to reference that web site. https://providers.xmpp.net/faq/#category-a ↺

I explained my reasoning for not being keen on doing that to them (despite me not being convinced there's a requirement to reason about my web site contents to avoid public shaming). But obviously failed to convince them. ✏

> They have to support registrations via XMPP apps and be free of charge.

Hi!

My "admin" account was already configured under XEP-0157, but I tried to join under my personal account. 🤦🏻‍♂️ Thanks for the help!

> My "admin" account was already configured under XEP-0157, but I tried to join under my personal account. 🤦🏻‍♂️ Thanks for the help! No problem! ↺

icebound.dev: But to be fair I do get the intention. They'd like to offer veryfiable data. So this is a problem. Not a simple story of "they're bad people".

> icebound.dev: But to be fair I do get the intention. They'd like to offer veryfiable data. So this is a problem. Not a simple story of "they're bad people". I have spoken to them before, I know they aren't malicious, but I do have my concerns about some of their policies, and they are stubborn on it too. ↺

I've been following Holger's tread and all I can say is that I 100% agree. I'm an advocate of free as in freedom but not free as in free beer. I applaud you for trying to make a living!

In my book they'd want a solution to query that data without having to insist on web site contents. But even that would not solve my specific issue, which is that I don't want to publish certain limits which may be understood as guarantees to commercial customers. In our specific case I also just don't see the problem with delisting us and solving the problem later. Some people see the issue of us holding too many accounts, and while I don't think our number is problematic for federation, we're not keen on increasing it. We'd just like to offer an easy default server for non-geek Conversations newcomers. So why not just remove us from a recommendation list and call it a day.

The Providers List people have heard those arguments years ago, but if anyone agrees, I'm happy to have your reiterate them 😃

All that said, I like them, and I'm going to shut up now.

> I've been following Holger's tread and all I can say is that I 100% agree. I'm an advocate of free as in freedom but not free as in free beer. I applaud you for trying to make a living! That is a concern I raised, Holger's concerns differ. Its especially hard to contribute to XMPP when people expect you to give up your time for free, and if you do not have a strong job to provide your financials, it can be especially difficult to contribute. ↺

> All that said, I like them, and I'm going to shut up now. :) ↺

I do like providers too

It's great! Thanks to that list, our user base is growing faster. > I do like providers too

>> They have to support registrations via XMPP apps and be free of charge. They mustn't recheck, last I saw trashserver.net stopped registrations due to spam and yet was still listed as A ↺

maybe they didn't updare their records, or the bot has issues doing that

it should try and fetch data once per day

Ah

Oh hmm, thats a different list.

Maybe I'm thinking of elsewhere it is listed.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2026/msg00237.html nginx DSA

https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/DSA-6326-1