XMPP Summit - 2011-02-07

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  2. Florian morning all
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  4. bmalkow morning
  5. Florian morning
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  8. bear Xavier said via email that he enjoyed giving his talk and appreciated the people in the room who were helping organize
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  10. stpeter bear: good -- please ask him to send us his slides :)
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  16. Wayne Franklin Good morning everyone.
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  20. Wayne Franklin Can someone post the link to Peter's i18n presentation from Friday.
  21. hildjj
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  27. stpeter Wayne Franklin: http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/i18n-for-the-perplexed.pdf
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  31. Johann Prieur good morning
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  33. Fritzy Aloha
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  35. intosi@ik.nu Morning
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  39. bear would love to see a recording of that i18n talk - I can imagine more talking happened than what the slides show for words
  40. linuxwolf bear: I don't think we recorded the first talk … which may leave you behind with the second /-:
  41. bear thats fine - i'm sadly a very broken and scarred unicode veteran ;)
  42. bear so the second talk may be more useful :)
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  44. hildjj Some other characters to add to your list of edge cases: ﷺ (U+FDFA), ΐ (U+0390), Dž (U+01C5)
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  52. stpeter hildjj: cool, let's keep track of those -- perhaps we want to create a wiki page on ietf.org?
  53. hildjj nod.
  54. hildjj reminder: http://www.mclean.net.nz/ucf/ for those without unicode checker
  55. Dave Cridland We control the temp by changing the number of hackers in the room.
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  63. js stpeter: do we already take care of ZWNBSP?
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  65. stpeter http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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  69. Kev Urgh.
  70. Kev So, how do I usefully contribute to this from here?
  71. ralphm@ik.nu Hey Kev
  72. ralphm@ik.nu How are you feeling?
  73. Kev I'm out of bed, which is an improvement on most of the last week, thanks.
  74. Kev I'm not so bad now.
  75. ralphm@ik.nu You can follow the transcript thingy stpeter is keeping at the URL above
  76. ralphm@ik.nu and type here
  77. Kev Yep, I'm doing that.
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  81. MattJ waves
  82. Kev There seem to be three main requirements for DMUC - continuing access during partitioning, dealing with slow links and reducing ~duplicate stanzas across a single link.
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  84. hildjj Dave is talking about DMUC.
  85. hildjj i would love it if he burst out in song, of course.
  86. Kev I'll wait for someone to transcribe, then.
  87. Kev Oh, you're in Cisco. I don't suppose the room's equipped to webex is it? :)
  88. hildjj Kev, we looked into it, but couldn't make it happen here.
  89. Kev Bugger.
  90. hildjj it's not our home office, so we couldn't make destructive changes.
  91. MattJ Kev: Don't say that near Fritzy
  92. stpeter Kev: Dave can bring you up to speed :)
  93. hildjj MattJ: fritzy hates teh webexes?
  94. ralphm@ik.nu ClusterMUC™
  95. MattJ hildjj: Nah, Kev's exclamation of defeat
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  100. hildjj could folks in the physical room help scribe more either here or in the TypeWith.me page?
  101. stpeter hildjj: +1
  102. Florian could someone repost the URL?
  103. hildjj http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
  104. Kev http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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  107. Kev I'd greatly appreciate it, I'm not happy about have to have missed this.
  108. remko Kev: you're already punished enough because you had to miss the pizza
  109. js talking of food. are there any plans to catch some food during the summit?
  110. MattJ js: There shall be lunch
  111. intosi@ik.nu I believe there will be food.
  112. stpeter lunch will be served at noon
  113. js nice
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  116. Kev Several to Many.
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  118. MattJ ralphm@ik.nu: The slides are in stpeter's email yesterday - 'my slides for Monday morning'
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  120. ralphm MattJ: thanks
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  122. winfried loves the elegance of Dave's proposal, looks to me the least complicated, clearest
  123. MattJ +1
  124. Dave Cridland It's not mine, as such. it's mostly Curtis and Kev.
  125. MattJ Some things need hashing out though
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  128. MattJ It's also much better than IRC at netsplits :)
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  130. Florian Kev: do you want a live video stream?
  131. Kev Do you mean something more advanced than a Skype call?
  132. Florian ah, you have that already...
  133. Florian I would offer Qik or uStream
  134. hildjj florian is sitting closer to the front than i am, so his might be better anyway.
  135. winfried Indeed, why setup a complicated Proxy or master-slave system just to mimic IRC-netsplits ;-)
  136. Dave Cridland MattJ, I certainly agree there's scant detail in what we're proposing, as yet.
  137. Kev I'm hearing Peter fine atm.
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  139. winfried Dave just had a netsplit I believe ;-)
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  141. Florian give me 10mins to set it up
  142. Kev So my current state here is that I've got a new MUC-Sync spec I need to write, and then update FMUC to use it, and then discuss it.
  143. Dave Cridland winfried, Yeah... Need a local server.
  144. Kev So I'm happy to do it that way.
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  147. Kev Because no-one's insane enough to want to define MUC 3.0 based on pubsub.
  148. Kev And the issue with sync etc. is exactly the same.
  149. bear someone is streaming?
  150. Florian I will be in a second
  151. Kev I'm on a Skype call with hildjj.
  152. Florian just figuring out Qik on the N900
  153. bear ah
  154. BenC My attention span is no longer keeping up with my fingers. I'm dropping off typing on typewith for a while
  155. Kev Thanks Ben, it's been useful.
  156. bear does the older flood/fill algorithm of olden internet days useful here?
  157. bear wow - early morning english ftw
  158. Florian hildjj: could you get me a second WiFi login for the N900 to stream?
  159. bear wifi must be dropping folks a lot in that room
  160. js works fine with 5 GHz
  161. MattJ bear: Really? :)
  162. Kev I guess Joe's trying to stream to Bear as well as me now, and it's killing his connection.
  163. hildjj kev/bear, i'm going to just start a webex.
  164. Kev It was fine previously.
  165. bear yea, i'm going to drop off if it's causing issues with kev's reception
  166. js though on friday it had a few problems with 2.4 GHz
  167. Dave Cridland Streaming video would seem interesting, if we can.
  168. bear closes skype
  169. hildjj i'm on a different subnet/radio channel than you guys.
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  172. Florian I get really bad wifi
  173. hildjj https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=138622147&PW=660e3d5d0402060b530e&RT=MiM2
  174. js florian: try 5 GHz
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  176. Kev hildjj: Thanks very much, going through the Preparing dance now.
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  178. Florian http://qik.ly/GfPtx
  179. bear goes to file a bug for FF4 and Java extensions
  180. bear curses dogfooding firefox beta nightlies
  181. hildjj bear: put FF4 into 32bit mode.
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  185. Florian Qik should be streaming
  186. Kev It is, thanks.
  187. Kev I'm streaming both atm so I can swap when one fails :)
  188. Florian low quality as the WiFi doesn't work for me
  189. Florian is the quality ok?
  190. stpeter Florian: I can set you up for wifi
  191. Florian I have WiFi keys, they network in this corner just doesn't work properly
  192. Florian will try to improve it for the second half of the day
  193. stpeter ah
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  195. Florian coffe cup moved :)
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  200. Florian is it just me that is having issues with the WiFi dropping packets massively?
  201. Florian well, I guess that Kick just answered my question :)
  202. hildjj http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
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  205. Kev I've got webex and qik going, one on each of two machines, and I'm turning audio on/off on each stream based on who's speaking so I can hear them :)
  206. Florian hehe :)
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  208. ralphm http://twitter.com/#!/mobilevikings/status/34559653098561536
  209. Florian ;)
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  213. Dave Cridland Fun.
  214. js btw is it possible to get another wifi key for my mobile?
  215. js my problem was my server's route being lost, not the wifi :/
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  220. stpeter time for a break
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  222. Kev Can we have a live stream of the sandwiches? :D
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  224. Florian Kev ... sure
  225. Florian i'll set one up :D
  226. Kev Not really.
  227. intosi@ik.nu @Kev: we can try to stream them across the channel...
  228. stpeter heh
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  236. stpeter for this afternoon's session, we'll be chatting in xmpp:xmpp@jabber.ietf.org
  237. bear has joined
  238. stpeter hi bear
  239. bear hello again
  240. bear black ice and drunk driver == power pole destroyed
  241. stpeter ouch
  242. bear and me finding out I have one UPS overloaded (the hard way)
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  247. hildjj https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=138622947&PW=252d4c05551816160222&RT=MiMyMg%3D%3D
  248. hildjj and please move to xmpp:xmpp@jabber.ietf.org?join
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  251. Kev *wave
  252. Artur Hefczyc hi
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  266. l-fy hi
  267. hildjj we're all over in xmpp@jabber.ietf.org
  268. l-fy i know
  269. winfried I have got some s2s issue it seams, can't join the room...
  270. Florian same
  271. Florian investigating...
  272. Artur Hefczyc what soft is running there?
  273. SimonT has joined
  274. Florian Artur Hefczyc: we're running Tigase :)
  275. winfried LOL
  276. Artur Hefczyc hehe
  277. Artur Hefczyc good
  278. Artur Hefczyc what version of the Tigase then?
  279. Florian Artur Hefczyc: see my private messages :)
  280. winfried Name: Tigase Version: 5.1.0-b2506 Os: Linux-amd64-, Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM-17.1-b03-Sun Microsystems Inc.
  281. Artur Hefczyc I asked what software is running on jabber.ietf.org
  282. Dave Cridland !version jabber.ietf.org
  283. Kanchil Dave Cridland: jabber.ietf.org doesn't support feature requests
  284. Dave Cridland !version ietf.org
  285. Kanchil Dave Cridland: ietf.org is running ejabberd version 2.0.1 on unix/linux 2.6.22
  286. Dave Cridland Kanchil, Thanks.
  287. Artur Hefczyc ah, ok
  288. Dave Cridland So not my fault. :-)
  289. Artur Hefczyc hehe
  290. Dave Cridland It's nice for a change.
  291. Artur Hefczyc that the beauty of putting your soft on jabber.org, everybody blames you ;-)
  292. Astro !version summit@muc.xmpp.org/Astro
  293. Kanchil Astro: You are running Gajim version on Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 (squeeze)
  294. robert.mcqueen hrm, did we implement version in the end?
  295. Dave Cridland has left
  296. robert.mcqueen !version robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk
  297. Dave Cridland has joined
  298. Kanchil robert.mcqueen: robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk doesn't reply to version requests
  299. Astro robert.mcqueen: full jid?
  300. robert.mcqueen !version summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen
  301. Kanchil robert.mcqueen: summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen doesn't reply to version requests
  302. robert.mcqueen bah
  303. Dave Cridland .
  304. will.thompson no, we didn't. we talked about a possible implementation on Friday, remember? :)
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  307. winfried any advances Florian? getting a kind of impatient over here ;-)
  308. Artur Hefczyc give me a sec please
  309. Florian looks like ejabberd is broken :)
  310. Dave Cridland It's working okay for me.
  311. Artur Hefczyc apparently you have broken soft too ;-)
  312. winfried have seen interoperability issues between tigase en ejabberd before
  313. winfried (our Berlin-branch runs eJabberd ;-) _
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  322. Artur Hefczyc winfried: sorry, I am working on this now, but it looks it may take a while before I can fix it
  323. Artur Hefczyc or workaround it, whatever it is
  324. winfried ok...
  325. winfried thanks for diving into it Arthur!
  326. Artur Hefczyc it's like never ending story between tigase and ejabberd, once I get it working, they release a new version which does not work :-(
  327. l-fy Artur you are being picky :)
  328. Artur Hefczyc yes, you are right
  329. Artur Hefczyc sorry
  330. Artur Hefczyc I know, that the Tigase which is buggy and needs fixing, I should get back to work on it and stop complaining
  331. Artur Hefczyc :-)
  332. winfried well... complaining seems to be fashionable
  333. bear never considered pointing out failure patterns to be complaining - but that's just me I think
  334. Artur Hefczyc indeed
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  337. Artur Hefczyc eh, and I was so close to the ultimate solution for all world problems and Tigase performance, but…. I was called to presentation and now it is all gone ;-)
  338. winfried 42 it is ;-)
  339. Bartosz Malkowski lol :D
  340. stpeter low battery, leaving
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  345. MattJ hildjj: Why does the I and V not recompose to "IV"?
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  348. hildjj MattJ, because there's no recombination specified for I + V, or Rajiv would recompose.
  349. hildjj which would be bad.
  350. arty because you'r loosing information. I V -> I V, IV -> I V, now what should be the recompose of I V ? S.th. from {I V, IV} of course. And the simplier one wins....
  351. MattJ hildjj: Oh, so they don't decompose to something like roman numeral I, roman numeral V
  352. Dave Cridland has left
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  354. hildjj right. they decompose into a "normal" i and v.
  355. arty https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
  356. MattJ arty: Yes :)
  357. MattJ I was just surprised that such a simple character could grow in "width" after NFKC
  358. hildjj there are some little nuggets still coming out.
  359. Johann Prieur has joined
  360. MattJ Oh, this isn't the room I thought it was
  361. arty Do we have a remote clue about what would be needed for international usage or is this about enabling and blocking random char sets?
  362. SimonT I kinda agree: we need some more international people here before we can tease this out more. This stuff is complicated.
  363. MattJ arty: There are sets of unicode characters marked as e.g. "symbols" that we could choose to drop
  364. MattJ I'm not in favour of that though
  365. arty yes, or we could choose to support what people *care* about.
  366. SimonT we also have the issue of whether this stuff is even displayable on clients. For example the "pile of poo" is not even displayable - http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/browsertest.htm
  367. Wayne Franklin The thing I remember about bi-di is that you have to deal with inserting western language in the middle and the western stuff has to read left to right even though the flow of a sentence is right to left.
  368. winfried about the numbers: arabic numbers for example are just LTR characters...
  369. remko SimonT: wtf :)
  370. Wayne Franklin For a short time in North Carolina they were issuing license plates in the series WTF-####
  371. MattJ arty: the problem is that "what people care about" can change, and what we decide now won't be changed for decades ;)
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  374. winfried Wayne Franklin: lets say for example lowercase is LTR and uppercase is RTL then the string is stored like: abcDEFghi, but rendered liek abcFEDghi
  375. SimonT https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5892
  376. winfried so that is a UI issue, (when embedding those in html, it can mess up your rendering), but can't think of an issues with XMPP
  377. hildjj example from RFC 3454, section 6: If a string contains any RandALCat character, the string MUST NOT contain any LCat character
  378. hildjj If a string contains any RandALCat character, a RandALCat character MUST be the first character of the string, and a RandALCat character MUST be the last character of the string
  379. Wayne Franklin That's one way to deal with it
  380. arty MattJ: Well, societies usually move slowly. Anyway, I'm not sure if I want to see Šƫǝƒǡɳ in my contacts list, whereas I accept Константин Тарасов ..... I'm just not sure if the discussion at this abstract technical level is in any way correct or respecting reality
  381. hildjj and there's also U+200E and U+200F.
  382. MattJ arty: The problem is that (unlike IDNA's registrar-blocking approach) we can't really control things geographically the same way
  383. MattJ I don't want to accept Константин Тарасов - I'm a stupid Englishman :)
  384. Wayne Franklin :)
  385. arty :-)
  386. MattJ This is all very localised, but XMPP is global and decentralised, we need to find a common ground on what we can/can't globally enforce
  387. hildjj I have our admin working on making sure everyone in the world just speaks English.
  388. arty actually, you don't have to accept him, but you should allow him to use his native language for his name.
  389. Wayne Franklin I don't think it's a bad idea to follow the example of email addresses for JIDs
  390. Astro hildjj: he's root, he can do that...
  391. MattJ arty: Many of the characters in "Šƫǝƒǡɳ" are "native" to some part of the world, is my point
  392. hildjj well she's relatively non-technical, but very persuasive.
  393. MattJ Blocking stuff like this isn't really a protocol issue
  394. winfried hildjj: U+200E and U+200F are a problem indeed
  395. Wayne Franklin What are U+200E and U+200F? Space characters?
  396. Astro Wayne Franklin: LTR/RTL
  397. Wayne Franklin oh
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  401. arty MattJ: do you know or asume that? It would be really easy to e.g. pull all wikipedias and check all names in all languages (quite easy, did more or less that for en.wp.org)
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  403. MattJ arty: caron is commonly used in languages, sure
  404. MattJ I think the others are mostly phonetic
  405. MattJ But my point is that we shouldn't randomly block things that look "strange" to us
  406. MattJ because later on someone will come along and find that due to our ignorance in 2011 they can't register a user account on a server in their native language in 2020
  407. MattJ whateve
  408. MattJ r
  409. arty That's why I mean measure it. Analysis of wikipedia is a bit biased but fast & easy, and perhaps safer than doing for some random unicode flags
  410. arty and it might help us to understand the problem space better
  411. hildjj arty: suggest that on the list.
  412. MattJ Measuring wikipedia isn't exactly scientific
  413. arty MattJ: Suggest that on wikipedia-research list :-)
  414. MattJ I agree it's better than making uninformed decisions about what we block, but then - why should we block anything?
  415. MattJ Many of the "valid" characters are as, or more, complex cases than symbols and what-not
  416. MattJ Except for really obvious cases like direction markers and some space stuff, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to decide what should/should not be allowed in XMPP
  417. Dave Cridland My gut feeling is that we need a normalization form (and mapping rules for case folding), but I suspect aside from things like space characters not being allowed, much will end up as local policy.
  418. MattJ and obviously even direction markers are up for questioning
  419. MattJ Dave Cridland: That's not easy if you then get interop issues between servers
  420. MattJ arty: Measuring wikipedia gives you statistics, statistics are not science, they're a sub-class of lies as everyone knows
  421. Dave Cridland MattJ, Assuming that servers normalize on the wire, and domains are normalized and mapped interoperably, I don't think there's a problem.
  422. MattJ Normalization is what we are discussing, no?
  423. Dave Cridland MattJ, Only partly. Normalization is basically NF[K]{C|D} + case folding.
  424. MattJ Sure
  425. MattJ so if you allow one set of characters, and I don't... I'm meant to bend my normalization rules?
  426. Dave Cridland MattJ, Servers *may* also need to consider the RTL/LTR issues, and the rest. It's not clear to me that a global policy on anything but domain parts is required.
  427. MattJ I don't see that things are going to work if we have different normalization rules on different servers
  428. Kev Disallowing characters isn't part of normalization, is it?
  429. MattJ Kev: Technically I'd say not, but for the purposes of this discussion... :)
  430. MattJ it's covered by NF*
  431. MattJ aiui
  432. arty MattJ: So what would you measure? Wikipedia has especially person names. Many person names. How about just extracting them and see how they work against suggestions? Yes, this will not be the final result but a nice *testset*. I dislike settling without any sort of idea what would be needed.
  433. Kev I mean, given that I use NFC (for example) for normalization, doomsong my still choose to disallow local localparts that have a 'z' in them.
  434. Dave Cridland MattJ, NF* covers prohibited characters? I didn't think so.
  435. Kev That doesn't cause interop problems with jabber.org, which naively allows people with z in their name.
  436. MattJ arty: I dislike setting, so we're kind of in agreement :)
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  439. Wayne Franklin MattJ: Are you in favor of case folding?
  440. MattJ Yes
  441. Dave Cridland Kev, Right, and in addition doomsong.co.uk would only care about it's own localparts.
  442. Dave Cridland Wayne Franklin, We have case-folding on local parts already, i think changing would be catastrophic.
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  444. MattJ Kev: You can decide on your server to allow/disallow what you want - but we're setting a baseline that everyone MUST comply with
  445. Kev Well, it cares in three ways. It cares about applying normalization everywhere, global prohibitions everywhere, and local prohibitions (z) only to local addresses.
  446. Wayne Franklin I'm just trying to find where the line is to be drawn between accepting and not accepting a jid part
  447. MattJ saying "there is no baseline, do what you want" is a recipe for disaster as far as JID internationalisation is concerned
  448. Kev MattJ: Yes, and that's just fine, but the question is whether the baseline has to be very high at all.
  449. Kev You have to prohibit anything resembling a space, certainly.
  450. MattJ Right, that's what I think too
  451. MattJ I'm not in favour of blocking large ranges of characters
  452. Dave Cridland MattJ, So what the idea is is that locally, you might say "My users may not have half-width hangul characters".
  453. Kev I am, but I'm in favour of the servers doing it, I think, rather than protocol.
  454. MattJ I don't see why a server would /want/ to, but they're free to do that as a deployment decision if they wish and accept the consequences
  455. Robot101 aren't we already screwed - does XMPP disallow xn-- domain parts atm?
  456. Robot101 so people can and will set up jids @ localised domains
  457. Robot101 which will go onto rosters...
  458. Dave Cridland MattJ, But globally, we can say "Take a node, apply NFD, case-fold, and if it contains any space-like characters reject"
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  460. Robot101 so we basically already must require that, for example, servers must decompose domain parts to punycode for storage/comparison
  461. MattJ Robot101: We don't use the xn-- domains directly, their unicode equivalent go across the wire and in storage
  462. Robot101 or we'll never have any backwards compatibility
  463. MattJ Robot101: conversion to ascii is only for DNS lookup
  464. Robot101 what if someone configures their server to be @xn--.lala ?
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  467. MattJ Robot101: You get what you deserve ;)
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  469. MattJ Robot101: If you do that in prosody then it will return "host-unknown" when someone tries to connect to your (unicode) host
  470. Robot101 is that documented anywhere as "don't do that" - in terms of hildjj's concern of people complaining at us?
  471. Robot101 maybe its ok because its not a new problem
  472. MattJ I don't think it's documented, it's just not your hostname so you don't configure your server that way
  473. MattJ your hostname is the unicode variant
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  487. js hildjj: minutes are here: http://typewith.me/oVoICs8hD5
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  489. Florian could everyone at the end of this event give me back the SIM cards, as I need to send them back
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