Xavier said via email that he enjoyed giving his talk and appreciated the people in the room who were helping organize
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stpeter
bear: good -- please ask him to send us his slides :)
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Wayne Franklin
Good morning everyone.
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linuxwolfwaves
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Wayne Franklin
Can someone post the link to Peter's i18n presentation from Friday.
hildjj
☕
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stpeter
Wayne Franklin: http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/i18n-for-the-perplexed.pdf
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Johann Prieur
good morning
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Fritzy
Aloha
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intosi@ik.nu
Morning
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bear
would love to see a recording of that i18n talk - I can imagine more talking happened than what the slides show for words
linuxwolf
bear: I don't think we recorded the first talk … which may leave you behind with the second /-:
bear
thats fine - i'm sadly a very broken and scarred unicode veteran ;)
bear
so the second talk may be more useful :)
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hildjj
Some other characters to add to your list of edge cases: ﷺ (U+FDFA), ΐ (U+0390), Dž (U+01C5)
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stpeter
hildjj: cool, let's keep track of those -- perhaps we want to create a wiki page on ietf.org?
hildjj
nod.
hildjj
reminder: http://www.mclean.net.nz/ucf/ for those without unicode checker
Dave Cridland
We control the temp by changing the number of hackers in the room.
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js
stpeter: do we already take care of ZWNBSP?
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stpeter
http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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Kev
Urgh.
Kev
So, how do I usefully contribute to this from here?
ralphm@ik.nu
Hey Kev
ralphm@ik.nu
How are you feeling?
Kev
I'm out of bed, which is an improvement on most of the last week, thanks.
Kev
I'm not so bad now.
ralphm@ik.nu
You can follow the transcript thingy stpeter is keeping at the URL above
ralphm@ik.nu
and type here
Kev
Yep, I'm doing that.
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Kev
There seem to be three main requirements for DMUC - continuing access during partitioning, dealing with slow links and reducing ~duplicate stanzas across a single link.
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hildjj
Dave is talking about DMUC.
hildjj
i would love it if he burst out in song, of course.
Kev
I'll wait for someone to transcribe, then.
Kev
Oh, you're in Cisco. I don't suppose the room's equipped to webex is it? :)
hildjj
Kev, we looked into it, but couldn't make it happen here.
Kev
Bugger.
hildjj
it's not our home office, so we couldn't make destructive changes.
MattJ
Kev: Don't say that near Fritzy
stpeter
Kev: Dave can bring you up to speed :)
hildjj
MattJ: fritzy hates teh webexes?
ralphm@ik.nu
ClusterMUC™
MattJ
hildjj: Nah, Kev's exclamation of defeat
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hildjj
could folks in the physical room help scribe more either here or in the TypeWith.me page?
stpeter
hildjj: +1
Florian
could someone repost the URL?
hildjj
http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
Kev
http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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Kev
I'd greatly appreciate it, I'm not happy about have to have missed this.
remko
Kev: you're already punished enough because you had to miss the pizza
js
talking of food. are there any plans to catch some food during the summit?
MattJ
js: There shall be lunch
intosi@ik.nu
I believe there will be food.
stpeter
lunch will be served at noon
js
nice
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Kev
Several to Many.
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MattJ
ralphm@ik.nu: The slides are in stpeter's email yesterday - 'my slides for Monday morning'
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ralphm
MattJ: thanks
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winfriedloves the elegance of Dave's proposal, looks to me the least complicated, clearest
MattJ
+1
Dave Cridland
It's not mine, as such. it's mostly Curtis and Kev.
MattJ
Some things need hashing out though
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MattJ
It's also much better than IRC at netsplits :)
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Florian
Kev: do you want a live video stream?
Kev
Do you mean something more advanced than a Skype call?
Florian
ah, you have that already...
Florian
I would offer Qik or uStream
hildjj
florian is sitting closer to the front than i am, so his might be better anyway.
winfried
Indeed, why setup a complicated Proxy or master-slave system just to mimic IRC-netsplits ;-)
Dave Cridland
MattJ, I certainly agree there's scant detail in what we're proposing, as yet.
Kev
I'm hearing Peter fine atm.
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winfried
Dave just had a netsplit I believe ;-)
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Florian
give me 10mins to set it up
Kev
So my current state here is that I've got a new MUC-Sync spec I need to write, and then update FMUC to use it, and then discuss it.
Dave Cridland
winfried, Yeah... Need a local server.
Kev
So I'm happy to do it that way.
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Kev
Because no-one's insane enough to want to define MUC 3.0 based on pubsub.
Kev
And the issue with sync etc. is exactly the same.
bear
someone is streaming?
Florian
I will be in a second
Kev
I'm on a Skype call with hildjj.
Florian
just figuring out Qik on the N900
bear
ah
BenC
My attention span is no longer keeping up with my fingers. I'm dropping off typing on typewith for a while
Kev
Thanks Ben, it's been useful.
bear
does the older flood/fill algorithm of olden internet days useful here?
bear
wow - early morning english ftw
Florian
hildjj: could you get me a second WiFi login for the N900 to stream?
bear
wifi must be dropping folks a lot in that room
js
works fine with 5 GHz
MattJ
bear: Really? :)
Kev
I guess Joe's trying to stream to Bear as well as me now, and it's killing his connection.
hildjj
kev/bear, i'm going to just start a webex.
Kev
It was fine previously.
bear
yea, i'm going to drop off if it's causing issues with kev's reception
js
though on friday it had a few problems with 2.4 GHz
Dave Cridland
Streaming video would seem interesting, if we can.
bearcloses skype
hildjj
i'm on a different subnet/radio channel than you guys.
I have got some s2s issue it seams, can't join the room...
Florian
same
Florian
investigating...
Artur Hefczyc
what soft is running there?
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Florian
Artur Hefczyc: we're running Tigase :)
winfried
LOL
Artur Hefczyc
hehe
Artur Hefczyc
good
Artur Hefczyc
what version of the Tigase then?
Florian
Artur Hefczyc: see my private messages :)
winfried
Name: Tigase
Version: 5.1.0-b2506
Os: Linux-amd64-2.6.34.6-xxxx-std-ipv6-64, Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM-17.1-b03-Sun Microsystems Inc.
Artur Hefczyc
I asked what software is running on jabber.ietf.org
Dave Cridland
!version jabber.ietf.org
Kanchil
Dave Cridland: jabber.ietf.org doesn't support feature requests
Dave Cridland
!version ietf.org
Kanchil
Dave Cridland: ietf.org is running ejabberd version 2.0.1 on unix/linux 2.6.22
Dave Cridland
Kanchil, Thanks.
Artur Hefczyc
ah, ok
Dave Cridland
So not my fault. :-)
Artur Hefczyc
hehe
Dave Cridland
It's nice for a change.
Artur Hefczyc
that the beauty of putting your soft on jabber.org, everybody blames you ;-)
Astro
!version summit@muc.xmpp.org/Astro
Kanchil
Astro: You are running Gajim version 0.14.0.1-c63b9caadd5b on Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 (squeeze)
robert.mcqueen
hrm, did we implement version in the end?
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robert.mcqueen
!version robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk
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Kanchil
robert.mcqueen: robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk doesn't reply to version requests
Astro
robert.mcqueen: full jid?
robert.mcqueen
!version summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen
Kanchil
robert.mcqueen: summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen doesn't reply to version requests
robert.mcqueen
bah
Dave Cridland
.
will.thompson
no, we didn't. we talked about a possible implementation on Friday, remember? :)
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winfried
any advances Florian? getting a kind of impatient over here ;-)
Artur Hefczyc
give me a sec please
Florian
looks like ejabberd is broken :)
Dave Cridland
It's working okay for me.
Artur Hefczyc
apparently you have broken soft too ;-)
winfried
have seen interoperability issues between tigase en ejabberd before
winfried
(our Berlin-branch runs eJabberd ;-) _
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Artur Hefczyc
winfried: sorry, I am working on this now, but it looks it may take a while before I can fix it
Artur Hefczyc
or workaround it, whatever it is
winfried
ok...
winfried
thanks for diving into it Arthur!
Artur Hefczyc
it's like never ending story between tigase and ejabberd, once I get it working, they release a new version which does not work :-(
l-fy
Artur you are being picky :)
Artur Hefczyc
yes, you are right
Artur Hefczyc
sorry
Artur Hefczyc
I know, that the Tigase which is buggy and needs fixing, I should get back to work on it and stop complaining
Artur Hefczyc
:-)
winfried
well... complaining seems to be fashionable
bear
never considered pointing out failure patterns to be complaining - but that's just me I think
Artur Hefczyc
indeed
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Artur Hefczyc
eh, and I was so close to the ultimate solution for all world problems and Tigase performance, but…. I was called to presentation and now it is all gone ;-)
winfried
42 it is ;-)
Bartosz Malkowski
lol :D
stpeter
low battery, leaving
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MattJ
hildjj: Why does the I and V not recompose to "IV"?
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hildjj
MattJ, because there's no recombination specified for I + V, or Rajiv would recompose.
hildjj
which would be bad.
arty
because you'r loosing information. I V -> I V, IV -> I V, now what should be the recompose of I V ? S.th. from {I V, IV} of course. And the simplier one wins....
MattJ
hildjj: Oh, so they don't decompose to something like roman numeral I, roman numeral V
I was just surprised that such a simple character could grow in "width" after NFKC
hildjj
there are some little nuggets still coming out.
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MattJ
Oh, this isn't the room I thought it was
arty
Do we have a remote clue about what would be needed for international usage or is this about enabling and blocking random char sets?
SimonT
I kinda agree: we need some more international people here before we can tease this out more. This stuff is complicated.
MattJ
arty: There are sets of unicode characters marked as e.g. "symbols" that we could choose to drop
MattJ
I'm not in favour of that though
arty
yes, or we could choose to support what people *care* about.
SimonT
we also have the issue of whether this stuff is even displayable on clients. For example the "pile of poo" is not even displayable - http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/browsertest.htm
Wayne Franklin
The thing I remember about bi-di is that you have to deal with inserting western language in the middle and the western stuff has to read left to right even though the flow of a sentence is right to left.
winfried
about the numbers: arabic numbers for example are just LTR characters...
remko
SimonT: wtf :)
Wayne Franklin
For a short time in North Carolina they were issuing license plates in the series WTF-####
MattJ
arty: the problem is that "what people care about" can change, and what we decide now won't be changed for decades ;)
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winfried
Wayne Franklin: lets say for example lowercase is LTR and uppercase is RTL then the string is stored like: abcDEFghi, but rendered liek abcFEDghi
SimonT
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5892
winfried
so that is a UI issue, (when embedding those in html, it can mess up your rendering), but can't think of an issues with XMPP
hildjj
example from RFC 3454, section 6: If a string contains any RandALCat character, the string MUST NOT
contain any LCat character
hildjj
If a string contains any RandALCat character, a RandALCat
character MUST be the first character of the string, and a
RandALCat character MUST be the last character of the string
Wayne Franklin
That's one way to deal with it
arty
MattJ: Well, societies usually move slowly. Anyway, I'm not sure if I want to see Šƫǝƒǡɳ in my contacts list, whereas I accept Константин Тарасов ..... I'm just not sure if the discussion at this abstract technical level is in any way correct or respecting reality
hildjj
and there's also U+200E and U+200F.
MattJ
arty: The problem is that (unlike IDNA's registrar-blocking approach) we can't really control things geographically the same way
MattJ
I don't want to accept Константин Тарасов - I'm a stupid Englishman :)
Wayne Franklin
:)
arty
:-)
MattJ
This is all very localised, but XMPP is global and decentralised, we need to find a common ground on what we can/can't globally enforce
hildjj
I have our admin working on making sure everyone in the world just speaks English.
arty
actually, you don't have to accept him, but you should allow him to use his native language for his name.
Wayne Franklin
I don't think it's a bad idea to follow the example of email addresses for JIDs
Astro
hildjj: he's root, he can do that...
MattJ
arty: Many of the characters in "Šƫǝƒǡɳ" are "native" to some part of the world, is my point
hildjj
well she's relatively non-technical, but very persuasive.
MattJ
Blocking stuff like this isn't really a protocol issue
winfried
hildjj: U+200E and U+200F are a problem indeed
Wayne Franklin
What are U+200E and U+200F? Space characters?
Astro
Wayne Franklin: LTR/RTL
Wayne Franklin
oh
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hildjj
LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK, RIGHT-TO-LEFT MARK
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arty
MattJ: do you know or asume that? It would be really easy to e.g. pull all wikipedias and check all names in all languages (quite easy, did more or less that for en.wp.org)
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MattJ
arty: caron is commonly used in languages, sure
MattJ
I think the others are mostly phonetic
MattJ
But my point is that we shouldn't randomly block things that look "strange" to us
MattJ
because later on someone will come along and find that due to our ignorance in 2011 they can't register a user account on a server in their native language in 2020
MattJ
whateve
MattJ
r
arty
That's why I mean measure it. Analysis of wikipedia is a bit biased but fast & easy, and perhaps safer than doing for some random unicode flags
arty
and it might help us to understand the problem space better
hildjj
arty: suggest that on the list.
MattJ
Measuring wikipedia isn't exactly scientific
arty
MattJ: Suggest that on wikipedia-research list :-)
MattJ
I agree it's better than making uninformed decisions about what we block, but then - why should we block anything?
MattJ
Many of the "valid" characters are as, or more, complex cases than symbols and what-not
MattJ
Except for really obvious cases like direction markers and some space stuff, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to decide what should/should not be allowed in XMPP
Dave Cridland
My gut feeling is that we need a normalization form (and mapping rules for case folding), but I suspect aside from things like space characters not being allowed, much will end up as local policy.
MattJ
and obviously even direction markers are up for questioning
MattJ
Dave Cridland: That's not easy if you then get interop issues between servers
MattJ
arty: Measuring wikipedia gives you statistics, statistics are not science, they're a sub-class of lies as everyone knows
Dave Cridland
MattJ, Assuming that servers normalize on the wire, and domains are normalized and mapped interoperably, I don't think there's a problem.
MattJ
Normalization is what we are discussing, no?
Dave Cridland
MattJ, Only partly. Normalization is basically NF[K]{C|D} + case folding.
MattJ
Sure
MattJ
so if you allow one set of characters, and I don't... I'm meant to bend my normalization rules?
Dave Cridland
MattJ, Servers *may* also need to consider the RTL/LTR issues, and the rest. It's not clear to me that a global policy on anything but domain parts is required.
MattJ
I don't see that things are going to work if we have different normalization rules on different servers
Kev
Disallowing characters isn't part of normalization, is it?
MattJ
Kev: Technically I'd say not, but for the purposes of this discussion... :)
MattJ
it's covered by NF*
MattJ
aiui
arty
MattJ: So what would you measure? Wikipedia has especially person names. Many person names. How about just extracting them and see how they work against suggestions? Yes, this will not be the final result but a nice *testset*. I dislike settling without any sort of idea what would be needed.
Kev
I mean, given that I use NFC (for example) for normalization, doomsong my still choose to disallow local localparts that have a 'z' in them.
Dave Cridland
MattJ, NF* covers prohibited characters? I didn't think so.
Kev
That doesn't cause interop problems with jabber.org, which naively allows people with z in their name.
MattJ
arty: I dislike setting, so we're kind of in agreement :)
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Wayne Franklin
MattJ: Are you in favor of case folding?
MattJ
Yes
Dave Cridland
Kev, Right, and in addition doomsong.co.uk would only care about it's own localparts.
Dave Cridland
Wayne Franklin, We have case-folding on local parts already, i think changing would be catastrophic.
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MattJ
Kev: You can decide on your server to allow/disallow what you want - but we're setting a baseline that everyone MUST comply with
Kev
Well, it cares in three ways. It cares about applying normalization everywhere, global prohibitions everywhere, and local prohibitions (z) only to local addresses.
Wayne Franklin
I'm just trying to find where the line is to be drawn between accepting and not accepting a jid part
MattJ
saying "there is no baseline, do what you want" is a recipe for disaster as far as JID internationalisation is concerned
Kev
MattJ: Yes, and that's just fine, but the question is whether the baseline has to be very high at all.
Kev
You have to prohibit anything resembling a space, certainly.
MattJ
Right, that's what I think too
MattJ
I'm not in favour of blocking large ranges of characters
Dave Cridland
MattJ, So what the idea is is that locally, you might say "My users may not have half-width hangul characters".
Kev
I am, but I'm in favour of the servers doing it, I think, rather than protocol.
MattJ
I don't see why a server would /want/ to, but they're free to do that as a deployment decision if they wish and accept the consequences
Robot101
aren't we already screwed - does XMPP disallow xn-- domain parts atm?
Robot101
so people can and will set up jids @ localised domains
Robot101
which will go onto rosters...
Dave Cridland
MattJ, But globally, we can say "Take a node, apply NFD, case-fold, and if it contains any space-like characters reject"
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Robot101
so we basically already must require that, for example, servers must decompose domain parts to punycode for storage/comparison
MattJ
Robot101: We don't use the xn-- domains directly, their unicode equivalent go across the wire and in storage
Robot101
or we'll never have any backwards compatibility
MattJ
Robot101: conversion to ascii is only for DNS lookup
Robot101
what if someone configures their server to be @xn--.lala ?
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MattJ
Robot101: You get what you deserve ;)
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MattJ
Robot101: If you do that in prosody then it will return "host-unknown" when someone tries to connect to your (unicode) host
Robot101
is that documented anywhere as "don't do that" - in terms of hildjj's concern of people complaining at us?
Robot101
maybe its ok because its not a new problem
MattJ
I don't think it's documented, it's just not your hostname so you don't configure your server that way
MattJ
your hostname is the unicode variant
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js
hildjj: minutes are here: http://typewith.me/oVoICs8hD5
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Florian
could everyone at the end of this event give me back the SIM cards, as I need to send them back