XMPP Summit - 2011-02-07

  1. Florian

    morning all

  2. bmalkow


  3. Florian


  4. bear

    Xavier said via email that he enjoyed giving his talk and appreciated the people in the room who were helping organize

  5. stpeter

    bear: good -- please ask him to send us his slides :)

  6. Wayne Franklin

    Good morning everyone.

  7. linuxwolf waves

  8. Wayne Franklin

    Can someone post the link to Peter's i18n presentation from Friday.

  9. hildjj

  10. stpeter

    Wayne Franklin: http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/i18n-for-the-perplexed.pdf

  11. Johann Prieur

    good morning

  12. Fritzy


  13. intosi@ik.nu


  14. bear

    would love to see a recording of that i18n talk - I can imagine more talking happened than what the slides show for words

  15. linuxwolf

    bear: I don't think we recorded the first talk … which may leave you behind with the second /-:

  16. bear

    thats fine - i'm sadly a very broken and scarred unicode veteran ;)

  17. bear

    so the second talk may be more useful :)

  18. hildjj

    Some other characters to add to your list of edge cases: ﷺ (U+FDFA), ΐ (U+0390), Dž (U+01C5)

  19. stpeter

    hildjj: cool, let's keep track of those -- perhaps we want to create a wiki page on ietf.org?

  20. hildjj


  21. hildjj

    reminder: http://www.mclean.net.nz/ucf/ for those without unicode checker

  22. Dave Cridland

    We control the temp by changing the number of hackers in the room.

  23. js

    stpeter: do we already take care of ZWNBSP?

  24. stpeter


  25. Kev


  26. Kev

    So, how do I usefully contribute to this from here?

  27. ralphm@ik.nu

    Hey Kev

  28. ralphm@ik.nu

    How are you feeling?

  29. Kev

    I'm out of bed, which is an improvement on most of the last week, thanks.

  30. Kev

    I'm not so bad now.

  31. ralphm@ik.nu

    You can follow the transcript thingy stpeter is keeping at the URL above

  32. ralphm@ik.nu

    and type here

  33. Kev

    Yep, I'm doing that.

  34. MattJ waves

  35. Kev

    There seem to be three main requirements for DMUC - continuing access during partitioning, dealing with slow links and reducing ~duplicate stanzas across a single link.

  36. hildjj

    Dave is talking about DMUC.

  37. hildjj

    i would love it if he burst out in song, of course.

  38. Kev

    I'll wait for someone to transcribe, then.

  39. Kev

    Oh, you're in Cisco. I don't suppose the room's equipped to webex is it? :)

  40. hildjj

    Kev, we looked into it, but couldn't make it happen here.

  41. Kev


  42. hildjj

    it's not our home office, so we couldn't make destructive changes.

  43. MattJ

    Kev: Don't say that near Fritzy

  44. stpeter

    Kev: Dave can bring you up to speed :)

  45. hildjj

    MattJ: fritzy hates teh webexes?

  46. ralphm@ik.nu


  47. MattJ

    hildjj: Nah, Kev's exclamation of defeat

  48. hildjj

    could folks in the physical room help scribe more either here or in the TypeWith.me page?

  49. stpeter

    hildjj: +1

  50. Florian

    could someone repost the URL?

  51. hildjj


  52. Kev


  53. Kev

    I'd greatly appreciate it, I'm not happy about have to have missed this.

  54. remko

    Kev: you're already punished enough because you had to miss the pizza

  55. js

    talking of food. are there any plans to catch some food during the summit?

  56. MattJ

    js: There shall be lunch

  57. intosi@ik.nu

    I believe there will be food.

  58. stpeter

    lunch will be served at noon

  59. js


  60. Kev

    Several to Many.

  61. MattJ

    ralphm@ik.nu: The slides are in stpeter's email yesterday - 'my slides for Monday morning'

  62. ralphm

    MattJ: thanks

  63. winfried loves the elegance of Dave's proposal, looks to me the least complicated, clearest

  64. MattJ


  65. Dave Cridland

    It's not mine, as such. it's mostly Curtis and Kev.

  66. MattJ

    Some things need hashing out though

  67. MattJ

    It's also much better than IRC at netsplits :)

  68. Florian

    Kev: do you want a live video stream?

  69. Kev

    Do you mean something more advanced than a Skype call?

  70. Florian

    ah, you have that already...

  71. Florian

    I would offer Qik or uStream

  72. hildjj

    florian is sitting closer to the front than i am, so his might be better anyway.

  73. winfried

    Indeed, why setup a complicated Proxy or master-slave system just to mimic IRC-netsplits ;-)

  74. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, I certainly agree there's scant detail in what we're proposing, as yet.

  75. Kev

    I'm hearing Peter fine atm.

  76. winfried

    Dave just had a netsplit I believe ;-)

  77. Florian

    give me 10mins to set it up

  78. Kev

    So my current state here is that I've got a new MUC-Sync spec I need to write, and then update FMUC to use it, and then discuss it.

  79. Dave Cridland

    winfried, Yeah... Need a local server.

  80. Kev

    So I'm happy to do it that way.

  81. Kev

    Because no-one's insane enough to want to define MUC 3.0 based on pubsub.

  82. Kev

    And the issue with sync etc. is exactly the same.

  83. bear

    someone is streaming?

  84. Florian

    I will be in a second

  85. Kev

    I'm on a Skype call with hildjj.

  86. Florian

    just figuring out Qik on the N900

  87. bear


  88. BenC

    My attention span is no longer keeping up with my fingers. I'm dropping off typing on typewith for a while

  89. Kev

    Thanks Ben, it's been useful.

  90. bear

    does the older flood/fill algorithm of olden internet days useful here?

  91. bear

    wow - early morning english ftw

  92. Florian

    hildjj: could you get me a second WiFi login for the N900 to stream?

  93. bear

    wifi must be dropping folks a lot in that room

  94. js

    works fine with 5 GHz

  95. MattJ

    bear: Really? :)

  96. Kev

    I guess Joe's trying to stream to Bear as well as me now, and it's killing his connection.

  97. hildjj

    kev/bear, i'm going to just start a webex.

  98. Kev

    It was fine previously.

  99. bear

    yea, i'm going to drop off if it's causing issues with kev's reception

  100. js

    though on friday it had a few problems with 2.4 GHz

  101. Dave Cridland

    Streaming video would seem interesting, if we can.

  102. bear closes skype

  103. hildjj

    i'm on a different subnet/radio channel than you guys.

  104. Florian

    I get really bad wifi

  105. hildjj


  106. js

    florian: try 5 GHz

  107. Kev

    hildjj: Thanks very much, going through the Preparing dance now.

  108. Florian


  109. bear goes to file a bug for FF4 and Java extensions

  110. bear curses dogfooding firefox beta nightlies

  111. hildjj

    bear: put FF4 into 32bit mode.

  112. Florian

    Qik should be streaming

  113. Kev

    It is, thanks.

  114. Kev

    I'm streaming both atm so I can swap when one fails :)

  115. Florian

    low quality as the WiFi doesn't work for me

  116. Florian

    is the quality ok?

  117. stpeter

    Florian: I can set you up for wifi

  118. Florian

    I have WiFi keys, they network in this corner just doesn't work properly

  119. Florian

    will try to improve it for the second half of the day

  120. stpeter


  121. Florian

    coffe cup moved :)

  122. Florian

    is it just me that is having issues with the WiFi dropping packets massively?

  123. Florian

    well, I guess that Kick just answered my question :)

  124. hildjj


  125. Kev

    I've got webex and qik going, one on each of two machines, and I'm turning audio on/off on each stream based on who's speaking so I can hear them :)

  126. Florian

    hehe :)

  127. ralphm


  128. Florian


  129. Dave Cridland


  130. js

    btw is it possible to get another wifi key for my mobile?

  131. js

    my problem was my server's route being lost, not the wifi :/

  132. stpeter

    time for a break

  133. Kev

    Can we have a live stream of the sandwiches? :D

  134. Florian

    Kev ... sure

  135. Florian

    i'll set one up :D

  136. Kev

    Not really.

  137. intosi@ik.nu

    @Kev: we can try to stream them across the channel...

  138. stpeter


  139. stpeter

    for this afternoon's session, we'll be chatting in xmpp:xmpp@jabber.ietf.org

  140. stpeter

    hi bear

  141. bear

    hello again

  142. bear

    black ice and drunk driver == power pole destroyed

  143. stpeter


  144. bear

    and me finding out I have one UPS overloaded (the hard way)

  145. hildjj


  146. hildjj

    and please move to xmpp:xmpp@jabber.ietf.org?join

  147. Kev


  148. Artur Hefczyc


  149. l-fy


  150. hildjj

    we're all over in xmpp@jabber.ietf.org

  151. l-fy

    i know

  152. winfried

    I have got some s2s issue it seams, can't join the room...

  153. Florian


  154. Florian


  155. Artur Hefczyc

    what soft is running there?

  156. Florian

    Artur Hefczyc: we're running Tigase :)

  157. winfried


  158. Artur Hefczyc


  159. Artur Hefczyc


  160. Artur Hefczyc

    what version of the Tigase then?

  161. Florian

    Artur Hefczyc: see my private messages :)

  162. winfried

    Name: Tigase Version: 5.1.0-b2506 Os: Linux-amd64-, Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM-17.1-b03-Sun Microsystems Inc.

  163. Artur Hefczyc

    I asked what software is running on jabber.ietf.org

  164. Dave Cridland

    !version jabber.ietf.org

  165. Kanchil

    Dave Cridland: jabber.ietf.org doesn't support feature requests

  166. Dave Cridland

    !version ietf.org

  167. Kanchil

    Dave Cridland: ietf.org is running ejabberd version 2.0.1 on unix/linux 2.6.22

  168. Dave Cridland

    Kanchil, Thanks.

  169. Artur Hefczyc

    ah, ok

  170. Dave Cridland

    So not my fault. :-)

  171. Artur Hefczyc


  172. Dave Cridland

    It's nice for a change.

  173. Artur Hefczyc

    that the beauty of putting your soft on jabber.org, everybody blames you ;-)

  174. Astro

    !version summit@muc.xmpp.org/Astro

  175. Kanchil

    Astro: You are running Gajim version on Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 (squeeze)

  176. robert.mcqueen

    hrm, did we implement version in the end?

  177. robert.mcqueen

    !version robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk

  178. Kanchil

    robert.mcqueen: robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk doesn't reply to version requests

  179. Astro

    robert.mcqueen: full jid?

  180. robert.mcqueen

    !version summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen

  181. Kanchil

    robert.mcqueen: summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen doesn't reply to version requests

  182. robert.mcqueen


  183. Dave Cridland


  184. will.thompson

    no, we didn't. we talked about a possible implementation on Friday, remember? :)

  185. winfried

    any advances Florian? getting a kind of impatient over here ;-)

  186. Artur Hefczyc

    give me a sec please

  187. Florian

    looks like ejabberd is broken :)

  188. Dave Cridland

    It's working okay for me.

  189. Artur Hefczyc

    apparently you have broken soft too ;-)

  190. winfried

    have seen interoperability issues between tigase en ejabberd before

  191. winfried

    (our Berlin-branch runs eJabberd ;-) _

  192. Artur Hefczyc

    winfried: sorry, I am working on this now, but it looks it may take a while before I can fix it

  193. Artur Hefczyc

    or workaround it, whatever it is

  194. winfried


  195. winfried

    thanks for diving into it Arthur!

  196. Artur Hefczyc

    it's like never ending story between tigase and ejabberd, once I get it working, they release a new version which does not work :-(

  197. l-fy

    Artur you are being picky :)

  198. Artur Hefczyc

    yes, you are right

  199. Artur Hefczyc


  200. Artur Hefczyc

    I know, that the Tigase which is buggy and needs fixing, I should get back to work on it and stop complaining

  201. Artur Hefczyc


  202. winfried

    well... complaining seems to be fashionable

  203. bear

    never considered pointing out failure patterns to be complaining - but that's just me I think

  204. Artur Hefczyc


  205. Artur Hefczyc

    eh, and I was so close to the ultimate solution for all world problems and Tigase performance, but…. I was called to presentation and now it is all gone ;-)

  206. winfried

    42 it is ;-)

  207. Bartosz Malkowski

    lol :D

  208. stpeter

    low battery, leaving

  209. MattJ

    hildjj: Why does the I and V not recompose to "IV"?

  210. hildjj

    MattJ, because there's no recombination specified for I + V, or Rajiv would recompose.

  211. hildjj

    which would be bad.

  212. arty

    because you'r loosing information. I V -> I V, IV -> I V, now what should be the recompose of I V ? S.th. from {I V, IV} of course. And the simplier one wins....

  213. MattJ

    hildjj: Oh, so they don't decompose to something like roman numeral I, roman numeral V

  214. hildjj

    right. they decompose into a "normal" i and v.

  215. arty


  216. MattJ

    arty: Yes :)

  217. MattJ

    I was just surprised that such a simple character could grow in "width" after NFKC

  218. hildjj

    there are some little nuggets still coming out.

  219. MattJ

    Oh, this isn't the room I thought it was

  220. arty

    Do we have a remote clue about what would be needed for international usage or is this about enabling and blocking random char sets?

  221. SimonT

    I kinda agree: we need some more international people here before we can tease this out more. This stuff is complicated.

  222. MattJ

    arty: There are sets of unicode characters marked as e.g. "symbols" that we could choose to drop

  223. MattJ

    I'm not in favour of that though

  224. arty

    yes, or we could choose to support what people *care* about.

  225. SimonT

    we also have the issue of whether this stuff is even displayable on clients. For example the "pile of poo" is not even displayable - http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/browsertest.htm

  226. Wayne Franklin

    The thing I remember about bi-di is that you have to deal with inserting western language in the middle and the western stuff has to read left to right even though the flow of a sentence is right to left.

  227. winfried

    about the numbers: arabic numbers for example are just LTR characters...

  228. remko

    SimonT: wtf :)

  229. Wayne Franklin

    For a short time in North Carolina they were issuing license plates in the series WTF-####

  230. MattJ

    arty: the problem is that "what people care about" can change, and what we decide now won't be changed for decades ;)

  231. winfried

    Wayne Franklin: lets say for example lowercase is LTR and uppercase is RTL then the string is stored like: abcDEFghi, but rendered liek abcFEDghi

  232. SimonT


  233. winfried

    so that is a UI issue, (when embedding those in html, it can mess up your rendering), but can't think of an issues with XMPP

  234. hildjj

    example from RFC 3454, section 6: If a string contains any RandALCat character, the string MUST NOT contain any LCat character

  235. hildjj

    If a string contains any RandALCat character, a RandALCat character MUST be the first character of the string, and a RandALCat character MUST be the last character of the string

  236. Wayne Franklin

    That's one way to deal with it

  237. arty

    MattJ: Well, societies usually move slowly. Anyway, I'm not sure if I want to see Šƫǝƒǡɳ in my contacts list, whereas I accept Константин Тарасов ..... I'm just not sure if the discussion at this abstract technical level is in any way correct or respecting reality

  238. hildjj

    and there's also U+200E and U+200F.

  239. MattJ

    arty: The problem is that (unlike IDNA's registrar-blocking approach) we can't really control things geographically the same way

  240. MattJ

    I don't want to accept Константин Тарасов - I'm a stupid Englishman :)

  241. Wayne Franklin


  242. arty


  243. MattJ

    This is all very localised, but XMPP is global and decentralised, we need to find a common ground on what we can/can't globally enforce

  244. hildjj

    I have our admin working on making sure everyone in the world just speaks English.

  245. arty

    actually, you don't have to accept him, but you should allow him to use his native language for his name.

  246. Wayne Franklin

    I don't think it's a bad idea to follow the example of email addresses for JIDs

  247. Astro

    hildjj: he's root, he can do that...

  248. MattJ

    arty: Many of the characters in "Šƫǝƒǡɳ" are "native" to some part of the world, is my point

  249. hildjj

    well she's relatively non-technical, but very persuasive.

  250. MattJ

    Blocking stuff like this isn't really a protocol issue

  251. winfried

    hildjj: U+200E and U+200F are a problem indeed

  252. Wayne Franklin

    What are U+200E and U+200F? Space characters?

  253. Astro

    Wayne Franklin: LTR/RTL

  254. Wayne Franklin


  255. hildjj


  256. arty

    MattJ: do you know or asume that? It would be really easy to e.g. pull all wikipedias and check all names in all languages (quite easy, did more or less that for en.wp.org)

  257. MattJ

    arty: caron is commonly used in languages, sure

  258. MattJ

    I think the others are mostly phonetic

  259. MattJ

    But my point is that we shouldn't randomly block things that look "strange" to us

  260. MattJ

    because later on someone will come along and find that due to our ignorance in 2011 they can't register a user account on a server in their native language in 2020

  261. MattJ


  262. MattJ


  263. arty

    That's why I mean measure it. Analysis of wikipedia is a bit biased but fast & easy, and perhaps safer than doing for some random unicode flags

  264. arty

    and it might help us to understand the problem space better

  265. hildjj

    arty: suggest that on the list.

  266. MattJ

    Measuring wikipedia isn't exactly scientific

  267. arty

    MattJ: Suggest that on wikipedia-research list :-)

  268. MattJ

    I agree it's better than making uninformed decisions about what we block, but then - why should we block anything?

  269. MattJ

    Many of the "valid" characters are as, or more, complex cases than symbols and what-not

  270. MattJ

    Except for really obvious cases like direction markers and some space stuff, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to decide what should/should not be allowed in XMPP

  271. Dave Cridland

    My gut feeling is that we need a normalization form (and mapping rules for case folding), but I suspect aside from things like space characters not being allowed, much will end up as local policy.

  272. MattJ

    and obviously even direction markers are up for questioning

  273. MattJ

    Dave Cridland: That's not easy if you then get interop issues between servers

  274. MattJ

    arty: Measuring wikipedia gives you statistics, statistics are not science, they're a sub-class of lies as everyone knows

  275. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, Assuming that servers normalize on the wire, and domains are normalized and mapped interoperably, I don't think there's a problem.

  276. MattJ

    Normalization is what we are discussing, no?

  277. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, Only partly. Normalization is basically NF[K]{C|D} + case folding.

  278. MattJ


  279. MattJ

    so if you allow one set of characters, and I don't... I'm meant to bend my normalization rules?

  280. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, Servers *may* also need to consider the RTL/LTR issues, and the rest. It's not clear to me that a global policy on anything but domain parts is required.

  281. MattJ

    I don't see that things are going to work if we have different normalization rules on different servers

  282. Kev

    Disallowing characters isn't part of normalization, is it?

  283. MattJ

    Kev: Technically I'd say not, but for the purposes of this discussion... :)

  284. MattJ

    it's covered by NF*

  285. MattJ


  286. arty

    MattJ: So what would you measure? Wikipedia has especially person names. Many person names. How about just extracting them and see how they work against suggestions? Yes, this will not be the final result but a nice *testset*. I dislike settling without any sort of idea what would be needed.

  287. Kev

    I mean, given that I use NFC (for example) for normalization, doomsong my still choose to disallow local localparts that have a 'z' in them.

  288. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, NF* covers prohibited characters? I didn't think so.

  289. Kev

    That doesn't cause interop problems with jabber.org, which naively allows people with z in their name.

  290. MattJ

    arty: I dislike setting, so we're kind of in agreement :)

  291. Wayne Franklin

    MattJ: Are you in favor of case folding?

  292. MattJ


  293. Dave Cridland

    Kev, Right, and in addition doomsong.co.uk would only care about it's own localparts.

  294. Dave Cridland

    Wayne Franklin, We have case-folding on local parts already, i think changing would be catastrophic.

  295. MattJ

    Kev: You can decide on your server to allow/disallow what you want - but we're setting a baseline that everyone MUST comply with

  296. Kev

    Well, it cares in three ways. It cares about applying normalization everywhere, global prohibitions everywhere, and local prohibitions (z) only to local addresses.

  297. Wayne Franklin

    I'm just trying to find where the line is to be drawn between accepting and not accepting a jid part

  298. MattJ

    saying "there is no baseline, do what you want" is a recipe for disaster as far as JID internationalisation is concerned

  299. Kev

    MattJ: Yes, and that's just fine, but the question is whether the baseline has to be very high at all.

  300. Kev

    You have to prohibit anything resembling a space, certainly.

  301. MattJ

    Right, that's what I think too

  302. MattJ

    I'm not in favour of blocking large ranges of characters

  303. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, So what the idea is is that locally, you might say "My users may not have half-width hangul characters".

  304. Kev

    I am, but I'm in favour of the servers doing it, I think, rather than protocol.

  305. MattJ

    I don't see why a server would /want/ to, but they're free to do that as a deployment decision if they wish and accept the consequences

  306. Robot101

    aren't we already screwed - does XMPP disallow xn-- domain parts atm?

  307. Robot101

    so people can and will set up jids @ localised domains

  308. Robot101

    which will go onto rosters...

  309. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, But globally, we can say "Take a node, apply NFD, case-fold, and if it contains any space-like characters reject"

  310. Robot101

    so we basically already must require that, for example, servers must decompose domain parts to punycode for storage/comparison

  311. MattJ

    Robot101: We don't use the xn-- domains directly, their unicode equivalent go across the wire and in storage

  312. Robot101

    or we'll never have any backwards compatibility

  313. MattJ

    Robot101: conversion to ascii is only for DNS lookup

  314. Robot101

    what if someone configures their server to be @xn--.lala ?

  315. MattJ

    Robot101: You get what you deserve ;)

  316. MattJ

    Robot101: If you do that in prosody then it will return "host-unknown" when someone tries to connect to your (unicode) host

  317. Robot101

    is that documented anywhere as "don't do that" - in terms of hildjj's concern of people complaining at us?

  318. Robot101

    maybe its ok because its not a new problem

  319. MattJ

    I don't think it's documented, it's just not your hostname so you don't configure your server that way

  320. MattJ

    your hostname is the unicode variant

  321. js

    hildjj: minutes are here: http://typewith.me/oVoICs8hD5

  322. Florian

    could everyone at the end of this event give me back the SIM cards, as I need to send them back